I bet money it’s basically center x and Midas with a slightly higher velocity. Which is still nice. Not going to complain about more options.
- Thread starter Cowpokey
- Start date
Glad I read this, I thought Long Range and Super Long Range were the ETA of the new product.
Seriously, it is hopeful that Lapua launched new products. I wonder if MB had wind of this when he designed the Ravage chamber. I further wonder if there will be a new Angled Spade chamber. I am also quite certain that I will be left wondering because HE will speak on his own time.
Get out and shoot guys. I had to go to town today and in order to shoot before I left I had a headlamp on my head, a flashlight on the target and the fingerless gloves on because it was -15C.
Cowpokey ... no excuses tomorrow.
Seriously, it is hopeful that Lapua launched new products. I wonder if MB had wind of this when he designed the Ravage chamber. I further wonder if there will be a new Angled Spade chamber. I am also quite certain that I will be left wondering because HE will speak on his own time.
Get out and shoot guys. I had to go to town today and in order to shoot before I left I had a headlamp on my head, a flashlight on the target and the fingerless gloves on because it was -15C.
Cowpokey ... no excuses tomorrow.
Well said Justin Amateur. Unless there's a change in bullet shape and or weight. It will be nothing more than high speed Center X. Increased speed in 22 remfire does not mean increased accuracy. All it means is less vertical scope adjustment needed to hit the same point of aim as the slower stuff!As I have officially become a certified "old coot", by attaining the ripe old age of 67,
I am now allowed to offer comments regarding products that I have not yet tried.
I no longer am hindered by optimism, or a need to be politically correct.
You have been warned.
Let us look at this latest offering based on a realistic view of the production of rimfire ammunition.
It'll be manufactured at the same factory, using the same technicians, from the same components
off the same assembly lines offering the same quality control as they always have, right?
Do you really think the results will be any different than current production?
I don't. Same stuff, new label, marketing department gets a bonus
for finding another way to separate consumers from their hard earned cash,
without any investment in technology or upgrading equipment.
It's still mass produced 22lr ammunition.
Still subject to the bylaws of the of the rimfire lottery:
You pays y'er money, you takes y'er chances.
Based on what's said in the video, CP asks a very good question.
The Capstone representative in the video is Emil Praslick, who is described online as a Capstone Precision Group's Business Development Manager. He is a former coach of the US Army Marksmanship Unit and USA National long range teams.
Below is what he said in the video about SK Long Range Match ammo.
We are reeally seeeing a huge rise in the use of SK and SK Long Range in the rimfire precision shooting community -- NRL and PrS rimfire typee stuff. It is such a great value for the price point.
And also the Long Range has a slightly higher velocity. And the way that they control that at the factory is they're selecting lots for velocity. so an unintended consequence of buying this -- like you're looking for a slightly higher velocity -- the unintended consequence is that ES's and SD's of this ammo tend to be better anyway because they're selecting for velocity in the factory.
It sounds like Praslick is claiming that SK makes a quantity of ammo and selects lots that have higher average MV's to become SK Long Range Match and by virtue of having higher MV's these lots happen to have better ES and SD figures. By way of this explanation, everything else somehow becomes other SK ammos.
If Praslick is correct, Midwestside's reference to Duff Beer marketing is not off the mark.
Unfortunately, Praslick doesn't seem to have his facts in order. When SK Long Range was introduced in late 2018 - early 2019, it was produced on one of two SK production runs. One produced SK's 1073 fps varieties, the other the 1106 fps varieties. Each run was graded to result in the different flavors of SK.
That's the part that doesn't make sense in what he says. They make it in two speeds, 1073 and 1106 (1099 on SK's ballistics web page). RM, PM, S+, Magazine are all 1073. LRM, PMS, Biathlon are all 1106. I don't think they are just testing a lot and magically getting 1073 and 1106 ammo.
That's not that cold...but it is one of the reasons I didn't move back to my home state of South Dakota when I retired, y'all can have the cold and snow I don't miss it, and despise the little bit we get here in Marylandistan.
Edit add: It's 32ºF or 0ºC here at the moment...and cloudy, but it will be dim and warmish at the indoor range in an hour.
Just thinking here, , but there are only so many tweaks available
that can be made to the 22lr, and still meet saami and cip specs.
Velocities, brass lengths, bullet shapes/weights have all been tried, repeatedly,
by all the manufacturers in an attempt to gain market share.
I haven't seen anything that truly improves on the basic 40 grain round nose 22lr.
The only improvement that actually works is providing uniformly well made ammo
with extremely tight/consistent muzzle velocities...which is extremely hard to find.
I don't need new labeling or names or color schemes,
I just need decently made cartridges...give me those
I'll show you decent results from 5 yards to 500 yards.
Anything less, it doesn't matter what name is on the label, it'll spit strays and fliers.
, but there are only so many tweaks availablethat can be made to the 22lr, and still meet saami and cip specs.
Velocities, brass lengths, bullet shapes/weights have all been tried, repeatedly,
by all the manufacturers in an attempt to gain market share.
I haven't seen anything that truly improves on the basic 40 grain round nose 22lr.
The only improvement that actually works is providing uniformly well made ammo
with extremely tight/consistent muzzle velocities...which is extremely hard to find.
I don't need new labeling or names or color schemes,
I just need decently made cartridges...give me those
I'll show you decent results from 5 yards to 500 yards.
Anything less, it doesn't matter what name is on the label, it'll spit strays and fliers.
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I’m intrigued. I’d like to try them to see how they shoot in my Ranger 22, since I only shoot it at 100-200 yards.
I so agree with this. I have been shooting since I was 6, so 58 yrs at different levels, some very low. The one thing I noticed is shooters continually thirst for better, bordering on magical at times.Just thinking here,
that can be made to the 22lr, and still meet saami and cip specs.
Velocities, brass lengths, bullet shapes/weights have all been tried, repeatedly,
by all the manufacturers in an attempt to gain market share.
I haven't seen anything that truly improves on the basic 40 grain round nose 22lr.
The only improvement that actually works is providing uniformly well made ammo
with extremely tight/consistent muzzle velocities...which is extremely hard to find.
I don't need new labeling or names or color schemes,
I just need decently made cartridges...give me those
I'll show you decent results from 5 yards to 500 yards.
Anything less, it doesn't matter what name is on the label, it'll spit strays and fliers.
I am lost on the speculation aspect of these offerings, will it be gold, or silver, blah, blah. No doubt it will be good ammo, yet not great in a relatively large percentage of rifles.
We just need to buy some and test it and compare notes. That said, looking forward to getting my hands on some.
Pretty good es etc isn’t it ^
Pretty good , more shots over the magnetospeed might open it up a bit but that doesn’t really matter to me. Gonna be used in matches regardless.
10 shot strings, Vudoo Three 60, 20" MTU 1:16. This lot of SKPM isn't quite as good as the last lot I had, but it's still ok, the lot of SKRM is much better than the last one I had...wish I had a whole case of this one, but I was only able to get three bricks, that's all the LGS had. I only got two boxes of SKLRM today, I thought he had several bricks in the back, but there were only 12 boxes and they were two different lots. That first string of SKLRM was MAGIC...then it went back to what I expected for SD/ES.
First prices I've seen, this is from https://www.creedmoorsports.com/...they don't have the best prices, but still gives an idea what to expect.
Edit add: for comparison, this is what they have posted for Center-X and Midas+:
Edit add: for comparison, this is what they have posted for Center-X and Midas+:
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+1
SK RM and LR really seems to be a more realistic option for the grass-roots of the sport. But the spotty availability of SKLR makes it hard to lot test ammo and then actually buy bulk based on your testing.
To be fair to Lapua, they would presumably make these available for their testing servic, so hopefully find it easier to do effective lot testing for your rifle. But they really want their pound of flesh for this.
I still have a case of stuff I bought from their testing center.......but for this price, I'd want to test in real world conditions out to 400yds minimum. Can it hit 300, 350, 375 and group well?
We just put hit markers out at the range installed at 450 and 500yds.......that would be super long range to me for 22lr consistency, understanding wind would be a huge factor, but hitting 400yds in favorable weather shooters here pretty steady.
I can just imagine the price up here in Canada, center x was 24.99 it’s now dropped to 18.99 , we always get the screws put to us up here in Trudumb’s Libturd land
It’s been my understanding that SK S+, RM, and Lapua CX, M+, and X-act are made on the same line and sorted by consistency. And prices increase with consistency. If SK LRM and Lapua Biathlon are already in the same velocity line, then I’d expect the new LR & SLR to be increasing consistency above the existing two. I’ll be interested to try some LR with expectations of better consistency that my SK LRM, and probably won’t be willing to pay for SLR. If the Lapua LR is not more accurate at distance than Center-X in my rifle, then I’ve found the right balance of precision and cost for me.
SK products are made on one production line, Lapua on another.
From my understanding (take that for what it's worth), SK uses machines that have been taken off the Lapua line because they no longer stayed within the tolerances of Lapua made ammo.
Guys, Lapua has been making this for a while. Its called Polar Biathlon. 1106 with a .172 bc. Faster , yet under super sonic in cold. If you want faster, *Generally Eley Black and Red are marginally faster than Midas and CX. Pass me the Duff Ultra Light please
*( this is rimfire, no absolutes and there is an exception to every rule )
www.lapua.com
*( this is rimfire, no absolutes and there is an exception to every rule )
.22 LR / Polar Biathlon
Lapua Polar Biathlon has been the .22 lr ammunition behind the vast majority of biathlon medals won worldwide for many years. This cartridge is specifically designed for use in the frigid conditions…
www.lapua.com Secret recipe is to remove the sub-zero (˚C) specific biathlon lube, and repackage with the SK lighning grease, and relabel as "PRS special"?
J/K If this is true, has anyone shot 1106 Bialthon wth success? do you need a spec chamber or anything odd to get it to shoot?They should try making center x to meet demand versus making new lines of ammo to be listed as out of stock.
I just shot up half a case of Lapua Biathlon Extreme. I shot a half case of SK LRM immediately before that. I'm back to the same lot of SK LRM again and the Lapua is not as good. 50 yards, F class, shooting for score.
Nothing weird about it. The bullet shape is different from CenterX. Lube tastes different.
Just put that in to see if yer paying attention.
The Polar Extreme is different than the Polar and discontinued I believe, or at least not currently offered. The "regular" Polar seems to have the same projectile as the rest of the Lapua/SK offerings.
IIRC from what a friend was told when at the Mesa test center last year was that the Polar Biathlon wouldn't be available for more than a year. It does lend a bit of coincidence to this new offering's origins.
IME it was just like all other premium rimfire offerings, varies lot to lot and barrel/chamber personality preference. Wasn't great in any of my rigs, but I have EPS chambers in my customs, so as always YMMVSecret recipe is to remove the sub-zero (˚C) specific biathlon lube, and repackage with the SK lighning grease, and relabel as "PRS special"?
"My understanding about Lapua and SK..." - remember the TV episode of MASH about the pending change of property book officer and the inventory of mess hall food-trays?
The truth about Lapua and SK rimfire is - it's proprietary"!
The truth about Lapua and SK rimfire is - it's proprietary"!
The loading machines experience ongoing parts replacement and readjustment. Each time that occurs, tolerances must be reeestablished. This, as well as the use of different lots of components -- e.g. casings, bullets, priming compound, propellant -- calls for new lot numbers for the rounds produced.
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The prices don't look as bad as I had anticipated.
The thing is, I already have long-range ammo at only 3 dollars a box !
It says so right on the box, "Range One Mile"......
The thing is, I already have long-range ammo at only 3 dollars a box !
It says so right on the box, "Range One Mile"......
Haha!
Interesting. At 51F the Midas I was shooting was 1055 and at 61F it was 1062 out of a 20" Ace.
I was just digging and, wouldn't you know, I found a few boxes of Biathalon Extreme that I picked up maybe 9 months ago (but has a made in code of 2019). I don't know about discontiued but I have heard some hearsay that the biathalon shooter will test, find a lot their rifle likes and say "I'll take a pallets worth please!" Again, heresay but makes sense for the hardcore competitors. Looks like it's running 1099.
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I wish them well with it . but see it as yet another desirable round that will only be found once or twice on any shelves at any store if they can't really make the ammo they have now adding another is like counter productive I was really happy with the center x but only saw it for sale in the last year 3 times and even then I was only able to get a couple bricks of it . If I shot what I have every day or every other range day I be out in just a few weeks with no way to get more same with sk red box . so an new better ammo just seems silly nice but silly unless it's going to be available full time .
Feel the same way.
For easily the last 15yrs it seems we have been constantly told that companies cannot justify the added cost of increasing production.
Now we've had multiple facilities burn down and the numbers of shooters growing every year.
Making new products like this when like you say (because I've seen the same thing) they cannot keep product on the shelf at exorbitant prices seems more like a slap to the face of loyal consumers than a reason to be excited for.
I spoke to the Lapua folks at the show. Long range is exactly what most folks expect, a little hotter Center-X / Midas+. Super long range is lot selected long range and is somewhere in the vicinity of Midas+ / X-act in terms of selection criterion. It's not a big change, but it does matter, especially in 1-16 twist barrels. The lot of Center-X I have destabilizes at 175yds in my 1-16 twist vudoo and starts dropping rapidly. It's right on the ballistic model until then and after that, way off. It's just not spinning fast enough. Faster velocity = faster spin. That rifle shoots the faster cci std at 375 yds no problem, right on the model, and same with the also faster Eley CMP stuff. I'll be interested to see how the Long Range Lapua stuff fares at long distance as the rifle groups exceptionally well with Lapua.
I also spoke to Brian a bit on .22lr bullet shape and long range use. That was quite informative but not especially helpful. There isn't a lot of wiggle room and the ideas I had simply don't work in a squishy soft rimfire bullet. Basically, more velocity (but still subsonic) and a tighter twist are the available solutions.
I also spoke to Brian a bit on .22lr bullet shape and long range use. That was quite informative but not especially helpful. There isn't a lot of wiggle room and the ideas I had simply don't work in a squishy soft rimfire bullet. Basically, more velocity (but still subsonic) and a tighter twist are the available solutions.
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Yawn
I want higher BC than what a 40gr lead bullet offers and lower ES than what we usually see.
An airgun match was started 2 years ago down in Phoenix AZ. Last year the MD started a 22rf division and the power level is no more than 100 fpe, and has to be subsonic, so a 40 grainer at 1060 fps qualifies.
That match is a form of ""Field Target"" called Extreme Field Target because it goes out to 100 yards. It's much like the airgun game of FT except for more powerful airguns.
Give me a .2 G1 BC at 900-950 instead please.
I want higher BC than what a 40gr lead bullet offers and lower ES than what we usually see.
An airgun match was started 2 years ago down in Phoenix AZ. Last year the MD started a 22rf division and the power level is no more than 100 fpe, and has to be subsonic, so a 40 grainer at 1060 fps qualifies.
That match is a form of ""Field Target"" called Extreme Field Target because it goes out to 100 yards. It's much like the airgun game of FT except for more powerful airguns.
Give me a .2 G1 BC at 900-950 instead please.
I have not messed with Lapua much. There are cheaper options that shoot good enough in my rimx to win matches with. In fact, a good lot will shoot better than most PRS guys will claim to be the limits of accuracy for 22lr. Average lots shoot about what most guys say is "the best you can get" for 10 shot groups.
I have seen the issue with bullets losing stability in the 175 yd range and further. When I shoot groups on steel, the groups are around .75-1.25 moa for 10 shots until I go past my 167 yd target and then the 202 yd target is a 3-4" group. The further I go the worse it gets. At the 347 yd target my groups are 8-12"
It would be interesting to see if the higher velocity ammo does better past 200 yds.
I share the same skepticism as many in this thread. Lapua has figured out that there is a market for PRS rimfire, and they rebranded some of their other lines to sell them. Now instead of selling out of CenterX and having Biathlon, etc. left in stock, now they will sell it all out.
If you are around the rimfire prs scene in the midwest you will know the load I am using. A LOT of really good shooters use it to save money over CenterX and still finish in the top few spots. I hesitate to plaster my results online for fear they will raise the price or rebox it into a more expensive line.
Justinamatuer said it best. It's mass produced rimfire ammo. Some is better than others, but none of it is great. This isn't innovative. It's another way for them to squeeze a few more shekels out of us and add it to their bottom line. Start lot testing the cheap shit in a good rifle and you will understand what I am getting at. Good reamer designs, barrel blanks, and chambering jobs are the key. That, and ammunition that makes it into the rifles magazine without being abused. From there, you play the lottery and hope to win.
I also think people are getting tired of the new shiny. For 80 years now, the companies with the most advertising dollars and the slickest sales pitch have won the most customers. In today's society, peoples' bullshit meters are so finely tuned that this approach no longer flies with many. We want our problems solved with no bullshit and the most value for the dollar. I don't give a rats ass what's on the box. If it will make my 22lr average 1.5" at 300 yds for 5 shots then I'll be willing to pay 50 cents a pop for it. I'd be willing to bet the farm that this "new" ammo isn't that.
I have seen the issue with bullets losing stability in the 175 yd range and further. When I shoot groups on steel, the groups are around .75-1.25 moa for 10 shots until I go past my 167 yd target and then the 202 yd target is a 3-4" group. The further I go the worse it gets. At the 347 yd target my groups are 8-12"
It would be interesting to see if the higher velocity ammo does better past 200 yds.
I share the same skepticism as many in this thread. Lapua has figured out that there is a market for PRS rimfire, and they rebranded some of their other lines to sell them. Now instead of selling out of CenterX and having Biathlon, etc. left in stock, now they will sell it all out.
If you are around the rimfire prs scene in the midwest you will know the load I am using. A LOT of really good shooters use it to save money over CenterX and still finish in the top few spots. I hesitate to plaster my results online for fear they will raise the price or rebox it into a more expensive line.
Justinamatuer said it best. It's mass produced rimfire ammo. Some is better than others, but none of it is great. This isn't innovative. It's another way for them to squeeze a few more shekels out of us and add it to their bottom line. Start lot testing the cheap shit in a good rifle and you will understand what I am getting at. Good reamer designs, barrel blanks, and chambering jobs are the key. That, and ammunition that makes it into the rifles magazine without being abused. From there, you play the lottery and hope to win.
I also think people are getting tired of the new shiny. For 80 years now, the companies with the most advertising dollars and the slickest sales pitch have won the most customers. In today's society, peoples' bullshit meters are so finely tuned that this approach no longer flies with many. We want our problems solved with no bullshit and the most value for the dollar. I don't give a rats ass what's on the box. If it will make my 22lr average 1.5" at 300 yds for 5 shots then I'll be willing to pay 50 cents a pop for it. I'd be willing to bet the farm that this "new" ammo isn't that.
Only 50 cents per round for the kind of .22LR ammo that averages 1.5" (0.5 MOA) at 300 yards?
For many shooters it can be a tall order to average 0.5 MOA (1/4") five shot groups at 50 yards. At 300 yards where 0.5 MOA results are vastly more difficult, most serious shooters would pay much, much more. Some might even be willing to walk a bit funny.
No problems achieving it for that cost of ammo in centerfire. Also, when many are winning prs rimfire matches with $7/box ammo, why pay more? Also, a good lot of that $7 ammo will produce nearly .5 moa at 50 yds with a bipod and rear bag. No benchrest setup. My only point is that people willing to bend over and take it on ammo are driving this. I'm as guilty as anyone. I'm going to play to win as long as I can afford it, but believe me when I say that $25 a box rimfire ammo is not required to do well at a prs match. They are simply trying to separate a fool and his money.
With .22lr? I saw some videos they did with custom 22 mag ammo.
Someone is swapping original .22LR bullets with factory Hornady 40 grain centerfire bullets similar to what's shown below?
How's that possible?
Would it even be legal in competition? I would think notSomeone is swapping original .22LR bullets with factory Hornady 40 grain centerfire bullets similar to what's shown below?
How's that possible?
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