new to NFA

[DieselKinevel]

I started my paperwork for my first NFA item, a 10.5" AR. I have been looking at the Noveske and Rainier Arms barrels. Does anyone have any tips or pointers for my first build? I have seen many people using a heavy buffer spring for the SBR's. this thing needs to be dead nuts reliable (it will be used for patrol work).

thanks,

Z

 

[Raider Power]

I put a noveske chrome lined barrel in mine. Im also running a cabine spring and an h2 buffer but may kick it up to an h3 if I start running heavier loads.

 

[DieselKinevel]

Awesome, thanks. I am leaning towards a Noveske, but at this point i'm going to get what I can find. I haven't heard anything negative about Rainier or Noveske. Palmetto has a chrome lined barrel. Finding even NFA items in stock is tough.

-Z

 

[slothlacrosse]

Make sure you're running an enhances extractor spring and o-ring

 

[DieselKinevel]

Make sure you're running an enhances extractor spring and o-ring

Thanks, any particular brand? Ive only ever heard about Wolff.

-Z

 

[slothlacrosse]

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm extractor spring 3pack.htm

 

[DieselKinevel]

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm extractor spring 3pack.htm

Appreciated!

-Z

 

[rumpunch]

Consider a B5 system rather than the standard extension and the usual H, H1, H2, etc. It is said to help with reliability in SBRs (especially if you plan on running it with a can). My Daniel Defense Mk 18 came with the H buffer in it and it has run well so far, but I haven't run it suppressed yet. If I were building a gun I would just start out with the B5 system rather than experiment with different weights.

 

[Charger442]

all i see on B5 systems is just a stock. is it supposed to have something else with it to help with recoil and slowing the carrier down?

 

[LRRPF52]

The 10" guns are really hard on the AR15 action, especially extraction. The reason is because the gas ports had to be opened up in order to compensate for the reduced dwell time from the port to the muzzle. The Army and Navy learned the hard way with the Colt Model 607 and XM177E1 back in the early 1960's that these guns have a significantly reduced life, and beat some of the critical parts up.

They first tried to address the issue with a 3.5" Moderator with no flash suppressor slots on the Model 607:

http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/607-3-sm-739x236.jpg

Then on the XM177E1, which actually saw fairly widespread use with officers, K-9 handlers, and LRRPs, the 4.5" Moderator was introduced:

http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/609-3-341x505.jpg

The guns still suffered from reliability issues, and the XM177E2 was developed to deal with those, mainly by going with an 11.5" barrel combined with the 4.5" Moderator, with the addition of a Grenade ring behind the Moderator to captivate the forward mounting bracket of the XM148 and later M203 Grenade Launchers:

http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/629-1-sm-721x237.jpg

The Model 607 was the first in the Commando series, but not the first carbine, interestingly. That was the Model 605:

http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/605-22-713x401.jpg

SOCOM is re-experiencing the failure rate with the Mk.18 that the Army and Navy experienced with the Model 607 and XM177E1 back in the early-mid 1960's.

 

[DieselKinevel]

Thanks for the info. Would it be better (reliability wise) to use a pistol length gas system or carbine length? I have been scrounging around the interwebz and it seems most are saying the carbine gas system will reduce the amount of pressure and the duration of the pressure during fire.

 

[j-dubya]

He probably meant the Vltor A5 system.

all i see on B5 systems is just a stock. is it supposed to have something else with it to help with recoil and slowing the carrier down?

 

[j-dubya]

No, stick with the carbine system. Also, consider going with an 11.5" barrel over the 10.3/10.5" for the extra dwell time.

Thanks for the info. Would it be better (reliability wise) to use a pistol length gas system or carbine length? I have been scrounging around the interwebz and it seems most are saying the carbine gas system will reduce the amount of pressure and the duration of the pressure during fire.

 

[DieselKinevel]

No, stick with the carbine system. Also, consider going with an 11.5" barrel over the 10.3/10.5" for the extra dwell time.

Would I have to change my form 4? I haven't had it signed off yet. Would it just take printing another out? I have thought about it considering more 11.5" barrels being available. Am I looking at more reliability with the added length?

-Z

 

[j-dubya]

You *should* annotate your current barrel length on your form 4, however there is a lot of debate as to actual truth. I do not want to get into that, as I do not like to speak unless I KNOW what I am saying. I have read over and over that you will be fine either way, and that it may be beneficial to keep the shortest length annotated on your form 4. Ultimately it is up to you - you may be building additional uppers in the future with 10.5" barrels...I don't know.

The 11.5" barrel will be giving you more dwell time, which in turn is more reliability (or another way to put it: more forgiving with things like ammo, extractors, gas port size, and buffers)- should everything else be in spec, lubed properly, etc. Another thing is that the 11.5" will not be as harsh on the rest of your rifle components thereby increasing service life. Having used 10.3" barrels professionally and owning one personally, I have gone back and installed an 11.5" barrel on my personal. Another great thing I have learned about and is very critical to me now is gas port size. After years of shooting overgassed guns, especially suppressed, the benefits and joys of a tuned rifle is unreal... I just figured I would throw that in there for you to ponder since you mentioned reliability for a duty gun.

 

[Joe Curnarski]

I run a Noveske 10.5 CGB as my patrol/swat carbine. It runs like a sewing machine. I'm going to stay in my lane here and suggest that you contact Noveske and speak with "Joel" who is a wealth of knowledge. When I was specing out my rifle, he suggested that I go with at least a carbine length system (which the 10.5 has) as opposed to a pistol length system. He spoke about gas port size which was over my head. The 10.5 came with an "H2" buffer. I run XM-193 55 gr FMC and Federal Tactical Tru 55 gr JHP as those are our practice/duty loads, respectively.

The 10.5" platform is a harsh atmosphere for bolts, carriers, extractors, and other parts. However, I replace these items prior to them failing. It's all part of a maintenance schedule that you may wish to consider. Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

I can't speak for any other manufacturers when it comes to the 10.5" barrel length, but my Noveske is exceptionally reliable. Others, whose opinions I trust, suggest a minimum 11.5" barrel for greater reliability.

Whatever you get, consider a good quality lube, read that Slip 2000 EWL. I hae used it since 2008 and ran it during our (cold) week long training in January with no problems.

In your line of work, failure is not an option (to borrow a phrase).

Good luck!

Joe

 

[RyanScott]

You should get an 11.5 over a 10.5, for all of the reasons above. You'll want an H2 or H3 buffer. Consider a Centurion Arms barrel.

 

[rumpunch]

He probably meant the Vltor A5 system.

Yep. That's what I meant. If I were building from scratch I'd stick one of these (http://vltor.com/emod-a5.html) on there.

 

[j-dubya]

All of my AR's except the OBR have Centurion barrels. I believe these to be the finest barrels and the best all-around choice for a general purpose/combat rifle. It is essentially a highly-accurate stainless barrel that just happens to be hammer-forged. Not too heavy, not too light, but just right...

Consider a Centurion Arms barrel.

 

[LRRPF52]

In all the 11.5" guns I have owned or run, and seen run during high-volume courses, they are quite reliable. The first 2 AR15's I bought were 11.5" guns and they never hiccuped once that I can remember, and I wouldn't go shooting unless I was burning 300-600rounds in a training session.

With any of my AR's, I keep a regular maintenance schedule at 4000-6000rds, and 10000rds, where we're basically replacing ejector and extractor springs, then recoil springs and extractors plus springs, as well as the barrel depending on accuracy requirements for that blaster.

4000-6000rds: Change Extractor/Ejector springs, note condition of extractor lip and recoil spring length, check carrier key is securely attached, gas tube flange present and tube aligned (check with no bolt in carrier)

8000rds: Check springs and above points again, fire control group passes function test (doing this always)

10,000rds: Detail-inspect bolt face, cam pin hole, replace extractor/spring/buffer, inspect firing pin head, replace barrel if accuracy blows, replace recoil spring, check all trouble areas, gas tube replaced with barrel

 

[DieselKinevel]

I have taken all the advice yall gave and jumped on a Daniel Defense 11.5 hammer forged barrel. it comes with a low profile gas block on it, and I will be using my carbine gas system. I am still going to grab a 10.5 if/when one becomes available. But as Joe Curnarski said, I can't have my gun not function. I need it to be 100% reliable. I will be getting an H2 buffer to start. If I need an H3 I can grab one. I am leaning towards a LaRue 9" quad rail for it. I haven't heard anything bad about them.

Thanks for all the help.

-Z

 

[sbaird4000]

+1 on Noveske. I haven't heard anything but good things about them.

 

[j-dubya]

What gas block have you chosen?

 

[LRRPF52]

If you really want to tame an SBR, the MGI Rate Reducing Buffer is hard to beat. It makes a pussycat out of a lightweight gun.

 

[DieselKinevel]

What gas block have you chosen?

From Rainier's website where I purchased :"Barrel Material: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel Barrel Type: Cold Hammer Forged Barrel Caliber: 5.56 NATO Barrel Twist: 1:7 Barrel Length: 11.5" Barrel Profile: Govt Profile Barrel Gas System: Carbine Length Gas Block: Pinned Low Profile Inside Finish: Chrome Lined Outside Finish: Military Specification Heavy Phosphate Coated Muzzle Thread: 1⁄2×28 TPI (Threads Per Inch) Gas Port Diameter: ..750 Barrel Extension: A4 Weight: 1 lbs 6 oz Made in the USA!"

I am guessing low profile with .750 gas port

-Z

 

[j-dubya]

Check out a company called Syrac Ordnance for their gas block. They have an extremely simple design for fine-tuning your gas for optimizing your system. It is the same size as the normal low-profile gas blocks. Again, a very simple and effective adjustment system that is not gimmicky or complicated taking away from reliability.

 

[mike in pa]

When I built my 10.5" AR back in late 2007 I just bought a LWRC M6a1 upper and it has been 100% reliable with or without a can.

 

[slothlacrosse]

I am leaning towards a LaRue 9" quad rail for it. I haven't heard anything bad about them.

Here's my Larue 9.0 with a 10.3" barrel

 

[DieselKinevel]

Here's my Larue 9.0 with a 10.3" barrel

looking sweet! i have been looking into the vltor imod for my sbr. i have the vltor stock on my standard AR and love it.

-Z