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Pin & Weld gone wrong... Borescope video and screenshots included

A.Huggy

Private
Minuteman
Nov 19, 2019
92
119
Hey guys,
I just picked up a new 14.5" pinned and welded AR upper. It showed up yesterday and I planned to throw an optic on it last night and test it out at the range today.
Out of curiosity I looked at it with my borescope before doing anything with it. I'm glad I did. I'm not sure what went wrong here but there is a protrusion at the location of the pin & weld. It's difficult to get a sense of scale or depth from the screenshot, but in the video you can see that it protrudes quite a bit, maybe 2x the height of the lands? I'm not sure what kind of issues this would cause but it can't be good for stability or accuracy.

I'm planning to contact the manufacturer and I expect them to make things right. I understand that QC issues are inevitable, so I'm not going to drag their name though the mud.

Just sharing this because I thought it was interesting and a good reinforcement for the habit of always inspecting things before you test them.

2023-09-02 15_15_12-WIN_20230901_20_56_00_Pro.mp4 - VLC media player.png
 
I gotta say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pin/weld go all the way through to the bore…ever. Most gunsmiths I know just barely ‘kiss’ the threads and stop before dropping the pin into the hole and doing a spot weld on top to hold it in place, a couple might go to the base of the threads, but no deeper.

Just wow!
 
Hey guys,
I just picked up a new 14.5" pinned and welded AR upper. It showed up yesterday and I planned to throw an optic on it last night and test it out at the range today.
Out of curiosity I looked at it with my borescope before doing anything with it. I'm glad I did. I'm not sure what went wrong here but there is a protrusion at the location of the pin & weld. It's difficult to get a sense of scale or depth from the screenshot, but in the video you can see that it protrudes quite a bit, maybe 2x the height of the lands? I'm not sure what kind of issues this would cause but it can't be good for stability or accuracy.

I'm planning to contact the manufacturer and I expect them to make things right. I understand that QC issues are inevitable, so I'm not going to drag their name though the mud.

Just sharing this because I thought it was interesting and a good reinforcement for the habit of always inspecting things before you test them.

View attachment 8218323

I’m sort of thinking that this isn’t “just a QC issue” and is more like “no QC issue”. Shipping product without looking at the results (apparently at all) and not seeing an obvious issue like this sort of undermines” the “protect the manf” school of thought.
 
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Take the angled mirror off and borescope it again, you will see the barrel from different perspective.

*edit, the video now shows it very well..
 
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You should tell us the manufacturer. It would help any other customers with same barrel/upper. Before you know there might be a dude out there scratching his head why his groups are bad etc.

Fair point. This is a PSA Sabre upper. Allegedly this barrel is made by FN and cold hammer forged. Looks pretty rough to me even without the pin & weld fail.
 
I shoot barrels that are MILES worse than that. Potholes, not pitting. :D

New however, you should certainly be upset.
My pin and weld experiences are just the opposite, having paid for a pin and weld that never even touched the barrel.
 
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I’m not usually squeamish about a rough looking barrel. Apart from the pin sticking through the bore it looks fine, just not premium. I’ve never seen the inside of another FN CHF barrel, but I have seen inside of a Daniel Defense CHF barrel and it looked much nicer than this.
 
I contacted PSA support Tuesday through their online form. I got a confirmation saying they got my message and it’s in the queue for customer support. So far that’s all I’ve heard back.
 
No big deal...the pin is not protruding into the bore. And the bullet will slide on by, just like it does with the gas port..as long as the pin is really welded in and dont blow out under pressure.
With pressure dropping way put there, it shouldn't be a problem...But it's not correct. Ya don't drill into the bore, and many pin on the outer edge. Since it was done "professionally" it probably should be redone, as it was paid to be done correctly. But it's totally shootable,... if ya like the accuracy, keep on shootin it...if ya don't send it back...
Simple....
 
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It took a couple hours worth of sitting on hold and talking to a few different reps at PSA, but PSA has refunded me.
Long story short, they wanted to settle this issue with an exchange, but I wanted a refund. It took a while to reach a common understanding.

No hard feelings but I'll probably take a break from buying PSA products.
 
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Figure I would ask here instead of creating another thread. Is there any good reason I should go 16" and not p/w? I just bought a 14.5 DD barrel thinking i will p/w a silencer mount on it, but now I'm reading some stories of it going wrong and ruining the accuracy etc. Really don't want to throw $300+ down the toilet.

And other stories of the pin not even contacting the barrel, making it illegal. Which is also not at all what i want on my hands.
 
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Energy levels and lethality climb rapidly as barrel length increases. There is a reason the Mk12 has an 18” barrel.
 
Figure I would ask here instead of creating another thread. Is there any good reason I should go 16" and not p/w? I just bought a 14.5 DD barrel thinking i will p/w a silencer mount on it, but now I'm reading some stories of it going wrong and ruining the accuracy etc. Really don't want to throw $300+ down the toilet.

And other stories of the pin not even contacting the barrel, making it illegal. Which is also not at all what i want on my hands.
Better yet send it out for a 13.9 or 13.7 chop, pin and weld. Make sure you send gas black and barrel nut of choice.
 
Energy levels and lethality climb rapidly as barrel length increases. There is a reason the Mk12 has an 18” barrel.

It'll essentially be a truck gun/small coyote blind gun and I'll be at 20" total with the silencer with a 14.5" barrel which is why I'm thinking p/w. But if i wreck the barrel i might as well live with 21.5" and a 16" barrel
 
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Energy levels and lethality climb rapidly as barrel length increases. There is a reason the Mk12 has an 18” barrel.
Yeah, because it was developed in 2002. Spec ops barrels get shorter every year. Your tier one teams are running around these days with 7.5" and 8" barrels, trying to talk their command into 5" barrels. Lethality is so much more than velocity.
 
18” barrels and longer work far better for me. Less than 16” is pitiful. You may have different experiences. I know what I see on hundreds of kills.
 
18” barrels and longer work far better for me. Less than 16” is pitiful. You may have different experiences. I know what I see on hundreds of kills.
How could you possibly know that the animal you killed with an 18" barrel wouldn't have died exactly the same way if shot with a 16" barrel?

I doubt very seriously that there are many situations outside of extreme ranges where 50fps will have any effect on terminal ballistics. The deer, pigs and coyotes you shoot inside of 500y will die the same whether your mv is 2,750 or 2,800.
 
I am not going to argue with you. I don’t think or care if you understand.

If you shoot enough critters the difference shows. Below 16” it shows immediately.
There is more involved than forward velocity.

Ok, now you win. I have not a fucking clue what I’m talking about and the tens of thousands of rds I have fired are meaningless.
Congratulations 🎊
 
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I am not going to argue with you. I don’t think or care if you understand.

If you shoot enough critters the difference shows. Below 16” it shows immediately.
There is more involved than forward velocity.

Ok, now you win. I have not a fucking clue what I’m talking about and the tens of thousands of rds I have fired are meaningless.
Congratulations 🎊
Hmmmm. That's an interesting stance you've taken. You assume you've killed more critters than I. I used to be Mr long barrel and high velocity. I used to own a bunch of weatherby mark V rifles with 26" barrels. Then I got suppressors, and my barrels keep getting shorter and shorter, and as amazing as it sounds, everything just keeps on dying. I used to shoot whitetail with a 26" 300 win mag, for over a decade, and now I shoot them with a short suppressed 6arc, and they die just as fast. The addition 50 fps (+/-) afforded by 2" of barrel wouldn't change a single hunting story you have. Believe me, I came to this realization kicking, screaming, and dropping barrel lengths and inch or two per year, and nothing has changed except the length and weight of my rifles. When you hit those air bags, they tip right over, whether that impact velocity is 3,500fps or 1,800fps. The only difference is in your mind.
 
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Well this sample of one is evidence that PSA may be good enough, until they aren't. Glad you got your money refunded.
 
I’m holding out for a 0.5” barrel for my AR.

0.25” would be better.
This isn't far off
 
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Name me a company that doesn’t let a lemon slip out every now and again? It happens and the more high volume a company sells the greater the chances. Yeah it sucks when you are the unlucky Charlie Brown fucker that drew the straw, but don’t cut your nose off to spite your face. PSA makes some great firearms at a working man’s wage.
 
This isn't far off
Lol nice find!

And they make a 7.62x39
1701987986577.png


And a double barrel 45 ACP
1701988152787.png


My hands hurt just thinking about shooting any one of these.
 
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Lol nice find!

And they make a 7.62x39
View attachment 8290851

And a double barrel 45 ACP
View attachment 8290856

My hands hurt just thinking about shooting any one of these.
Yeah, my "Ballistic Hipster" moniker is because of shit like seeing your post and immediately remembering this disaster existed.

I don't shoot as well or as much as most here but my gun-focused autism gives me an encyclopedic knowledge of a combination of the useful and useless.
 
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Figure I would ask here instead of creating another thread. Is there any good reason I should go 16" and not p/w? I just bought a 14.5 DD barrel thinking i will p/w a silencer mount on it, but now I'm reading some stories of it going wrong and ruining the accuracy etc. Really don't want to throw $300+ down the toilet.

And other stories of the pin not even contacting the barrel, making it illegal. Which is also not at all what i want on my hands.
Silver soldier is form of permanent attachment that can be reversed without damaging the barrel. Also have someone like adco do the work and you won’t have problems.
 
I have one 14.5" with a pin & weld...but have no plans to ever do another...it's only 1.5" difference,.. big whoop!,... and with a 16" no hassles, and its all legal, all the time.
 
This picture has a 14.5" pinned 3 port vs a 16" single port ... close to the same overall length .
34 5/8" for pinned 3 port and 35.0" for 16" single port brake. If 3/8" is important to you than by all means go ahead...or a single port is not your cup of tea...just one example of what works for me, on light recoiling rifles...it just goes back to no hassles, with a 16" barrel, plus a small gain in velocity. A winning combo for me.
 

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This picture has a 14.5" pinned 3 port vs a 16" single port ... close to the same overall length .
34 5/8" for pinned 3 port and 35.0" for 16" single port brake. If 3/8" is important to you than by all means go ahead...or a single port is not your cup of tea...just one example of what works for me, on light recoiling rifles...it just goes back to no hassles, with a 16" barrel, plus a small gain in velocity. A winning combo for me.
Not showing that the receivers are perfectly lined isn’t the most convincing photo…..lol
 
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Name me a company that doesn’t let a lemon slip out every now and again? It happens and the more high volume a company sells the greater the chances. Yeah it sucks when you are the unlucky Charlie Brown fucker that drew the straw, but don’t cut your nose off to spite your face. PSA makes some great firearms at a working man’s wage.

The problem is Poormetto sends out a lot of fucked up stuff and are dicks about correcting it. They still owe two stocks and/or buffer tubes from builders kits I ordered that I’ll never get. Fuck PSA.
 
Not showing that the receivers are perfectly lined isn’t the most convincing photo…..lol
I lined them up took the photo...then "measured" the overall length with a tape measure...AS STATED. Can you read?....So even a moron can understand that 34 5/8" and 35" for total overall length of each ....so that you do not have to be concerned about the recievers being "perfectly aligned"...the tape measure tells you what length they actually are...lol. The picture is a visual reference. Cause clowns on here like to make a fool of themselves... as per your response...So in anticipation of that, I measured them to be sure of their length. Read it...
Only 3/8" difference. These rifles have the exact same manufacturer, Areo Precision for the uppers, and same favorite manufacturer for the stocks... that's exactly what they measure.
It was supposed to be helpful for those interested in using a 16" barrel, instead of a pinned 14.5" barrel, while still retaining close to the same length...I accomplished that.
Use the same or similar setup on a 16" barrel is up to the individual.
 
I lined them up took the photo...then "measured" the overall length with a tape measure...AS STATED. Can you read?....So even a moron can understand that 34 5/8" and 35" for total overall length of each ....so that you do not have to be concerned about the recievers being "perfectly aligned"...the tape measure tells you what length they actually are...lol. The picture is a visual reference. Cause clowns on here like to make a fool of themselves... as per your response...So in anticipation of that, I measured them to be sure of their length. Read it...
Only 3/8" difference. These rifles have the exact same manufacturer, Areo Precision for the uppers, and same favorite manufacturer for the stocks... that's exactly what they measure.
It was supposed to be helpful for those interested in using a 16" barrel, instead of a pinned 14.5" barrel, while still retaining close to the same length...I accomplished that.
Use the same or similar setup on a 16" barrel is up to the individual.
The overall length of the rifle is not what is going to get you hemmed up by the ATF it's the actual barrel length, but I guess you are to fucking stupid to know that. They measure barrel length by sticking a rod down the barrel until it touches the bolt face on a closed bolt. 16" of rod better go down the barrel if not you have an overall barrel length shorter that 16" that's why I said for comparison line up the receivers perfectly to really show the difference. Now you can go fuck yourself!
 
The overall length of the rifle is not what is going to get you hemmed up by the ATF it's the actual barrel length, but I guess you are to fucking stupid to know that. They measure barrel length by sticking a rod down the barrel until it touches the bolt face on a closed bolt. 16" of rod better go down the barrel if not you have an overall barrel length shorter that 16" that's why I said for comparison line up the receivers perfectly to really show the difference. Now you can go fuck yourself!

What a moron...trying to start an argument that doesn't exist...and everybody knows how the ATF measures the barrel lengths. So here is the ATF barrel lengths... still only 3/8" difference. The 16" starts out 16.2" from the same manufacturer, the 14.5" barrel without a muzzle device 14.7". ..and use of a 1 port vs a 3 port muzzle brake to show the difference for those interested.
So the recievers are made on CNC machines from the same company. Most all Will be the exact copy, so for general discussion there was a visual to help others interested, make a decision...not ment to show an ATF measurement.
But you come along with your egotistical moronic mind, to puff and stroke your own ego, not interested in a real discussion. Typical, character flaw...Trying to impress others, even going off subject with the ATF measuring, that no one was talking about...and most everyone knows anyway...to try and save face...but took a huge nose dive into the concrete, and fell flat on your face. Such a totally predictable imbecile...
 

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This picture has a 14.5" pinned 3 port vs a 16" single port ... close to the same overall length .
34 5/8" for pinned 3 port and 35.0" for 16" single port brake. If 3/8" is important to you than by all means go ahead...or a single port is not your cup of tea...just one example of what works for me, on light recoiling rifles...it just goes back to no hassles, with a 16" barrel, plus a small gain in velocity. A winning combo for me.
Most would consider that 14.5 P&W on the left as an unsafe build. Tucked muzzle bakes under a handguard, even if only partially obscuring the ports, is a no-no. The rear ports, like on that Gen 1 VG6 Gamma, redirect the majority of the gasses, and handguard failures can occur.
 
What a moron...trying to start an argument that doesn't exist...and everybody knows how the ATF measures the barrel lengths. So here is the ATF barrel lengths... still only 3/8" difference. The 16" starts out 16.2" from the same manufacturer, the 14.5" barrel without a muzzle device 14.7". ..and use of a 1 port vs a 3 port muzzle brake to show the difference for those interested.
So the recievers are made on CNC machines from the same company. Most all Will be the exact copy, so for general discussion there was a visual to help others interested, make a decision...not ment to show an ATF measurement.
But you come along with your egotistical moronic mind, to puff and stroke your own ego, not interested in a real discussion. Typical, character flaw...Trying to impress others, even going off subject with the ATF measuring, that no one was talking about...and most everyone knows anyway...to try and save face...but took a huge nose dive into the concrete, and fell flat on your face. Such a totally predictable imbecile...
I can try to explain it to you, but I can't help you understand it. In my first post about your picture, I was merely and politely pointing out that a picture that just shows the end of two barrels doesn't really prove the difference clearly without showing that the barrels are indeed perfectly lined up from the beginning of the receivers. I wasn't even saying that you were wrong just that you should back the camera off to show that the barrels are indeed aligned correctly if you are trying to prove a point by showing a picture. You quickly turned into Mr., Internet tuff guy with your personal name calling and bullshit. You got some serious issues my man I hope you get back on your meds soon you are clearly fragile and unstable have a nice day!
 
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Most would consider that 14.5 P&W on the left as an unsafe build. Tucked muzzle bakes under a handguard, even if only partially obscuring the ports, is a no-no. The rear ports, like on that Gen 1 VG6 Gamma, redirect the majority of the gasses, and handguard failures can occur.
It's on a 9mm luger, not much pressure at the muzzle that far away....could run QL on it to get an estimate...but I noticed that right from the start, and most vents through the handguard hole, and only a small portion that could be easily milled off as I am aware ... but it hasn't been a problem in many thousands of rds...absolutely no wear on the aluminum handguard or finish at all after many thousands of rds.. And it would be easy to remedy if if was,...as I just finished another 3000 rds through it, much at a very high rate of fire, and hot loads. Like 115 gr at 1720 fps, 124 gr 1640 fps or 55 gr HP copper over 2600 fps, even run heavies 155 fmj to 185 gr bullets,for example. The 14.5 and 16 inch 9 has become one of my favorites...I had a 10.5", but no more AR pistols with braces...changed to all 16" stocked rifles...everyone should have the option, but not the hassle. I went with no hassle...and don't miss the short barrels. Besides I'm a long barrel fan as tbe range increases.
But thanks for the consensus & concern...I just go by what my experiences are, for the cartridge I'm using, and its purpose...and adapt accordingly...so for the 9mm, as you can see, I'm totally unconcerned about it...as here it's a non issue.
 

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