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Advanced Marksmanship Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I finally tried it. Talk about a humbling experience. My first cold bore shot was on the sight-in target, and it was right on the money, so I figured I'd start. Well, I was wrong. 1st shot was low dead center, so I went back to the sight-in target, shot a few more, adjusted the scope, and tried again. High left, tried again, high left, adjusted the scope again, low right. Those M3 turrets don't give much fine adjustment up close, so I set it between clicks. Finally got the scope dialed in after 8 shots (including sighting-in). Even so, it was still a challenge. Gonna try it again sometime soon.

dsc0817e.jpg

 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I found alot of benefits to this type of test,it allows you to take an average's to zero your scope,which is alot better than just taking a few shots to set up your scope.I think this also gets you a true MOA accuracy of the shooter/rifle combo.I took my farthest shot from center of dot to center of shot to right,then from center of dot to center of farthest shot to the left.Then did the same for my up and down misses.My total MOA was 7/8",I am happy with that,considering it is 15 shots.I would like to shrink it down,I need to work on my breathing,and follow through better.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I use a target like this for load ladder testing; it tells me things about individual shots and their sequence that a group won't record.

Like LL, I have abandoned group shooting, since the mindset associated with it is not related to my more practical shooting situations. I either shoot the individual POA/POI's, or a direct simulation of my competitive course of fire.

Greg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I am going to try an experiment,I am going to keep tack of all my brass,for each shot.I will group them together and label them,"high,"low" and bullseye,based on vertcal placement.After a few times of shooting this target,I will shoot only the brass that gave me "bullsyes",and see if the results improve.This could end up being a good way to sort brass,if nothing else,a way of discarding flyers from your brass pile.I think keeping track of how each piece of brass performed,could be important down the road.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I guess you print it a 100%? Sorry for the obvious question.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I tell ya this was a humbling experience, but very fun to do. I did this at 200 yards, cleared 7 out of the 15 prone. Definitely makes you work on your technique more, plus its fun to boot !

I think this may be my new target at the range from now on rather than shooting for groups. One thing I did was printed the dots in a orange as well, then stapled the black target over it. Give you a visible sign when you do make hits.

Plus for the cost of 2 sheets of paper and some printer ink, this is fabulous !
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

Shot this for the first time today, and third day at the range with my new Rem700 SPS Tac in .308.

@100yds, zero'd first three shots and got my best group ever! .25" !! Readjusted elev/wind then proceeded to the lil dots and sprayed the first six. Then noticed my scope on 16x (not 14x like I wrote). Then improved some but not much. This was harder than I expected. Can't wait to try again!

dot.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

Great shooting guys, one day when I grow up...... The most accurate rifle I have at this stage is my 22-250 with 55gr SGK. Busy working up loads for my 300 Winny Sendero. Will post as soon as the wind allows me to get to the range. Great site!
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

Bone stock Rem 700 SPS Varmint .308. POI shifted on #15
frown.gif

Shot a 5 shot at bull"V" after to confirm.
SNSPSV.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

El Gordo,

What is that COAL? 2.875" or 2.825"? Mine won't take much more than 2.830" without feeding problems. Any idea what your velocity is with that load?

Just when you thought you might clean that bastard! Still good shooting though.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

I am single loading the SPS and the COAL s 2.875" at the moment. I use the same load in my FN SPR. This load averages 2630fps with the SPS's 26" tube while the FN with 2 less inches of barrel averages 2705fps.

I am certainly having fun with this low end economy rifle. The only reason I can think of the POI shift is the cheapy stock, if not that....then the scope is the culprit, but I doubt that.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The tangential offset sight picture method that aligns the reticle wires as tangents touching the edges of the circular aimpoint is an advanced technique which has been described on this site many times over the years, and it's never too soon to post it again.

It's what I use to refine my sight picture's final resolution, and for the average shooter, can be worth as much as a half MOA of accuracy improvement all by itself.

Greg </div></div>

Greg I've just been quartering the dots.

Wouldn't using the tangent method affect your POI?
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

Yes, used direct, it places the POI outside the bull. So then you adjust the POI into the center of the bull, while holding the same sight picture. Thats why I use the term 'offset'.

This technique comes from a WWII Garand manual, where one shooter uses a distinct aiming point and adjusts the POI onto a visually indistinct target, then feeds the sight adjustment dope (and it is slightly modified by some to increase the size of the beaten zone) to a mass of infantry for massed fire using an offset aimpoint. The concept is furtehr refined to allow a close-up aimpoint, so the shooters' physical dispersion results in downrange fire dispersion to enlarge the beaten zone.

I had done the reasearch in the States and verified its effectiveness myself, then brought it to the attention of the Guard Mount commander when we got into the combat zone. One of the reasons I was promoted to Corporal, so I could serve as Corporal of the Guard.

My unit used it for perimeter guard exercises and repelling NVA skirmishers. The aimpoints and offsets were assigned in advance in daylight conditions for use in the dark; exactly the same way defensive artillery and machine gun fire is set up in advance of an expected attack. There is absolutely no reason why massed infantry can't use aiming stakes in the precisely same manner as artillery.

Very effective, and the OpFor has no reason to anticipate accurate nightime fire. Treated a lot of Gooks (pardon my ethnic insensitivity) to a terminal shock that way.

Greg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

Or consider the case of a shooter with an optic which adjusts in 1 MOA increments and is shooting at a 1/2 MOA or smaller target. They will probably have to use an offset aiming point unless the point of impact of their zero is precisely on the point of aim, which will occur mostly by accident.

And that technique also works with thick reticles. And even with iron sights - many shooters use an aiming point at the bottom of a target disc, rather than the center X-ring of the target itself, because it's easier to accurately put the sight post at the black and white boundary.

I once successfully hit a target behind the crest of a hill using an offset aiming point, because I could see the top of the target support structure, and knew how far below the top the target was.

And that's why the Director of Rifles Only said, "Successful employment of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than about shooting."
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group S

The weather was decent today, and I had some time to shoot, so I figured I may as well try the target.

I used a shoot n' see off to the side to check my zero before getting on this target. Turns out, I had to make no adjustments, so I proceeded to shoot the dots, left to right - top to bottom. Just like reading a page.

The last three (two for score and the sighter) were shot in that order.
As you can see, those three together would make for a nice little cloverleaf group, but they're off target as far hitting the dot goes.
I think that exemplifies what LL was saying about groups.
More than anything, I'm proud that my cold bore shot was dead on.
No PD towns in Southern VA, so it's shoot..... ride..... shoot on the groundhogs.

I am curious as to why the last three seemed to be consitently lower than the rest.
Something to do with heating and perhaps a bedding job is needed on the Medalist stock?

It's a fun and frustrating target to shoot.
I would have shot another one, but the migrants showed up as I was finishing this one and they began to top the tobacco in the adjacent field. No danger of hitting any of them, but they looked nervous nonetheless, so I left them in peace to do their work.

target_7-8-09.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Tried out the SH target this morning. Lots of fun! I was having trouble getting my eyes to focus. When I was not patient enough to get a clear pic I was off target. Pretty cool exersice. All shot taken under 2 minutes. Rife was Kimber 8400 tactical in 308. Shooting solid brass Barnes 165s at 2940 fps. Hart 25" barrel. Prone off bipod. 101 yards. DA 6708

SHtarget002.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Well this was fun, I only have about 100rds thru my Rem 700 SPS Tactical which is my first precision stick and I tried this today after switching the stock to a B&C Light Tactical 2 days ago. I obviously need some work.

3804658183_66d5175abd_b.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heshin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I obviously need some work.

</div></div>

You're not the only one... I need to hit the range ricky-tick now that the weather is getting nicer! As for your shots, you're doing better than every one of the liberal anti-gun weenies so that's something to be proud of.
smile.gif
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Actually BR shooters are trying to hit exactly what they aim at; for group shooters they are trying to put a 4 shot group through the same hole as thier first shot. That 1/4 inch hole in a piece of paper is a pretty small target. Try putting 4 shots on top of your cold bore shot, it will give you an idea of what they are chasing. Personally,I perfer the Hunter Class or Varmint for score where you have to use larger than 24 caliber and you are putting one shot into a 1/2" Ring. The guys and gals out there shooting those 250 (25X)scores are doing some serious shooting. Remember that with Hunter class your rifle can't weigh more than 10.5 lbs and you are limited to a 6X scope.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like this. It is the antithesis of the BR game.

Not that I dislike BR, I don't.

But I think a Marksman is a shooter who can hit what they aim at, not shoot a buncha close shots somewhere near what they aim at.

This puts the game back where it belongs.

Nice job, and good thinking...

Greg </div></div>
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Here is my first go at the dot drill. I cleaned my rifle then took it out to the farm and ran 5rnds through it before starting the drill. By the 8th or 9th rnd on the drill, the mirage off of the cyclone k was kicking my ass. I did enjoy the challenge.
HPIM1748.jpg
.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I like the "head in ass" shot PickPick.

I just downloaded the target and will give it a whack this weekend hopefully. Will post pic if I do get around to it.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Yeah, I obviously wasn't looking at the dot when I "jerked" that trigger. It's tougher than it looks. But, it's one of the most fun and rewarding tasks I've tried. Good luck.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Here is my tactical shooting from 200yds. Know this guy? The object of this game was to take all his senses: Eyes(sight), Brain(thinking), Nose(smell), and his mouth(taste) which I yanked so I decided that since I missed his mouth its ok cause all he says and eats is shit anyway. Forgot his ears but I want him to hear my 2cents anyway.

DSC01118.jpg

 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

These things are way more fun to shoot rather than chase tiny groups. This is my personal best, which I shot this morning with my .223AI. They were shot in the order of the numbers on the image. By the time I got to #12 I was pretty excited, and got all tense and stopped concentrating enough.


DSCF9335.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I just found this thread but think this is one of the best things I have read in a long time. Many thanks to Lowlight and I am looking forward to getting out and shooting, just as soon as I get some rounds loaded!
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Oh so close!

I do better on that one with my .223 than my .308. Either way though, it is a bastard of a challenge as I always get the yips somewhere along the line!

If I ever clean it, I'll post it; though we may be into the new interwebs when (if) that day comes!
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Finally got around to doing this today!

Only was able to shoot in lowlight (
wink.gif
). By the time I got to this it was near dusk, and by the time I was finishing, there was about this much ambient light left:

img0457h.jpg


Nonetheless, think I did alright:

img1753da.jpg


Rig is a bone-stock 700P, Leupold 3.5-10x, shooting factory 175 SMKs.

Can't wait to try it in some decent light!
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Heres a
045.jpg
target on game day at the last Cup.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

queequeg it was close to missing .
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I've got a few home made that I've used, and the NRA with 10 targets on it.

I'm downloading this one now!

I gave up group shooting a couple years ago, prefer the accurate shot now...
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Excellent concept and target. Now I know what the extra shoot-n-c dots are for if you don't use them elsewhere.

What's the paper size supposed to be?
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

damnit, the only ammo i have left at the house is my magtech fmj that i use for plinking. well, i guess i can pull some of that out when i get home and give it a go round
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

how do we get this target to practice with or do we make it up
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Check the first post of the thread.
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

scottishtornado and I had a go at the practical target today. It was below freezing with the wind chill and had a 10-15 MPH cross wind, but what the hell. Any day at the range is better than a day at work! I think it's safe to say we can both improve quite a bit.
grin.gif


Looking back at the firing line on a cease-fire. Strong cross wind:
IMG00059-20091206-1439.jpg


scottishtornado behind his rifle:
IMG00057-20091206-1432.jpg


My rifle:
IMG00058-20091206-1432.jpg


The targets:
IMG00060-20091206-1441.jpg
 
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

If I had known you were taking a pic of me I would have got all prettied up or at least wiped the snot off my nose.....lol
 
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