I've been searching here and on a couple of other forums for info on the DPMS LR308 series and there is a little bit of info indicating that quality and reliability of the most recent examples might not be what it once was. I'm having work done on the Saiga in one last attempt to make it work to 500 yards or so, but if it's just not going to do the job I need to be ready to do something else (on a severely limited budget). I have found a new 308B - 18" bull barrel, flat top, free floated HG, etc. - that will run me about $975 out the door. So I wanted to see if there was any recent info from owners of newer examples. They still gtg? Any reservations about DPMS lately?
- Thread starter Snakum
- Start date
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Snakum,
B4 the DPMS hate train arrives, i have to say that there is a lot of "Operator Error" with DPMS rifles. A lot of people get their rifles, try to upgrade/modify them, and don't quite appreciate/understand that 308ARs are not interchangeable parts wise like AR15s are...they try to use AR-10 parts, AR-15 parts or other non-compatible component, and complain that their rifle doesn't function properly. They get on the internet and rant about DPMS "quality".
This is not to say DPMS is not without issues, however, i think theirs is overblown. As with any other company out there, there are abound to be examples that are not to spec. Just google "KAC problems" or "LMT problems", and you'll find that "quality issues" are not a DPMS specific thing. Additionally, DPMS sells waay more 308 ARs than most of the other 308AR makers combined, and thus there will naturally be more non-conforming samples.
I've had very good luck with mine, it is accurate, and i've configured it the way i want without breaking the bank or spending what teh higher end ARs would run me to perform a similar conversion.
I posted the below in another thread about how i have my AR configured
Following is how i now have my DPMS LR 308 configured;
1. A2 buttstock was replaced with a VLTOR EMOD adj. stock.
2. AR Restor buffer for DPMS LR308 carbines
3. JP installed JP single stage trigger...3#-3.5# break
4. Replaced alum FF tube with DPMS Carbon Fiber FF tube.
5. Barrel reprofiled by ADCO to .750" & cut to 16"
6. Ergo Grip.
7. Ambi Safety.
8. YHM Hooded flip up gas blcok/front sight.
9. BABC Battlecomp.
10. YHM Rear Flip up sight.
After all this, my rifle went from 11.2lbs empty to just under 8lbs empty...MISSON ACCOMPLISHED!!
The rifle wears a sightron SII big sky 6.5-20x50 riflescope.
Regards
Snakum,
B4 the DPMS hate train arrives, i have to say that there is a lot of "Operator Error" with DPMS rifles. A lot of people get their rifles, try to upgrade/modify them, and don't quite appreciate/understand that 308ARs are not interchangeable parts wise like AR15s are...they try to use AR-10 parts, AR-15 parts or other non-compatible component, and complain that their rifle doesn't function properly. They get on the internet and rant about DPMS "quality".
This is not to say DPMS is not without issues, however, i think theirs is overblown. As with any other company out there, there are abound to be examples that are not to spec. Just google "KAC problems" or "LMT problems", and you'll find that "quality issues" are not a DPMS specific thing. Additionally, DPMS sells waay more 308 ARs than most of the other 308AR makers combined, and thus there will naturally be more non-conforming samples.
I've had very good luck with mine, it is accurate, and i've configured it the way i want without breaking the bank or spending what teh higher end ARs would run me to perform a similar conversion.
I posted the below in another thread about how i have my AR configured
Following is how i now have my DPMS LR 308 configured;
1. A2 buttstock was replaced with a VLTOR EMOD adj. stock.
2. AR Restor buffer for DPMS LR308 carbines
3. JP installed JP single stage trigger...3#-3.5# break
4. Replaced alum FF tube with DPMS Carbon Fiber FF tube.
5. Barrel reprofiled by ADCO to .750" & cut to 16"
6. Ergo Grip.
7. Ambi Safety.
8. YHM Hooded flip up gas blcok/front sight.
9. BABC Battlecomp.
10. YHM Rear Flip up sight.
After all this, my rifle went from 11.2lbs empty to just under 8lbs empty...MISSON ACCOMPLISHED!!
The rifle wears a sightron SII big sky 6.5-20x50 riflescope.
Regards
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I wouldn't hesitate to buy another lr308. Only small issue I had was with ftf/fte or stovepipe I believe it is called. Problem was easily solved buy changing cleaning intervals, and oil type and quantity. I have the 24" bb, upgraded to the prs stock and gieselle dmr trigger.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy another lr308. Only small issue I had was with ftf/fte or stovepipe I believe it is called. Problem was easily solved buy changing cleaning intervals, and oil type and quantity. I have the 24" bb, upgraded to the prs stock and gieselle dmr trigger.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I see the DPMS hate crowd has not jumped on board yet. Sure they will stop in and comment soon enough.
I firmly believe that all this "DPMS quality control" crap is just that: crap. There have been a couple of reported instances of legitimate problems over the past couple of months that the bashers have latched onto really hard and echoed their displeasure about in just about any thread where DPMS products quality is mentioned or questioned. It is both sad and comical to watch these folks do their work.
Is there a chance that DPMS quality has dropped in the last year or so? -- hell yes! Are the few examples of poor quality we have seen recently any real proof of that? -- not even close.
When you put out as many rifles as DPMS does on a monthly basis, a few reported problems is just a blip on the radar. It is something to watch, but not something to over-react to.
Buy DPMS with confidence. If you can't find that confidence due to a couple of recent reported problems, at least keep an open mind about it and watch for future trends.
I see the DPMS hate crowd has not jumped on board yet. Sure they will stop in and comment soon enough.
I firmly believe that all this "DPMS quality control" crap is just that: crap. There have been a couple of reported instances of legitimate problems over the past couple of months that the bashers have latched onto really hard and echoed their displeasure about in just about any thread where DPMS products quality is mentioned or questioned. It is both sad and comical to watch these folks do their work.
Is there a chance that DPMS quality has dropped in the last year or so? -- hell yes! Are the few examples of poor quality we have seen recently any real proof of that? -- not even close.
When you put out as many rifles as DPMS does on a monthly basis, a few reported problems is just a blip on the radar. It is something to watch, but not something to over-react to.
Buy DPMS with confidence. If you can't find that confidence due to a couple of recent reported problems, at least keep an open mind about it and watch for future trends.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
MIne is perfect.
It ran well to start and I had an "AR Doctor" make a careful review of all parts and function. NO issues.
More than anything, the "Obama Gun Binge" forced a lot of companies to add workers and training + experience took a while to get everything up to speed.
Some issues were bound to arise.
BMT
MIne is perfect.
It ran well to start and I had an "AR Doctor" make a careful review of all parts and function. NO issues.
More than anything, the "Obama Gun Binge" forced a lot of companies to add workers and training + experience took a while to get everything up to speed.
Some issues were bound to arise.
BMT
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot better than most bolt guns I have owned. It shot under half moa with match ammo every single time I pulled the trigger. I have seen issues with DPMS quality control but again they are sending out thousands of guns and there is not thousands of compaints yet. I would just try to look the gun over well before buying and if you are buying direct then make sure it works right and send back if you have any issues. If you know how to build it yourself then buy the parts and make sure it is done right.
I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot better than most bolt guns I have owned. It shot under half moa with match ammo every single time I pulled the trigger. I have seen issues with DPMS quality control but again they are sending out thousands of guns and there is not thousands of compaints yet. I would just try to look the gun over well before buying and if you are buying direct then make sure it works right and send back if you have any issues. If you know how to build it yourself then buy the parts and make sure it is done right.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I've the AP4, and pardner has the A3 Classic. During a multi-gun match, pards' 308 wouldn't chamber - turned out the rim had ripped off the previous round! Knocked it out w/cleaning rod, problem solved. So, the only problem that we have had was ammo related....
Bill
I've the AP4, and pardner has the A3 Classic. During a multi-gun match, pards' 308 wouldn't chamber - turned out the rim had ripped off the previous round! Knocked it out w/cleaning rod, problem solved. So, the only problem that we have had was ammo related....
Bill
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I probably have one of the most recent DPMS LR-308 builds here considering it arrive from St. Paul to my FFL on Thursday.
It is the 24" model to which I added the following upgrades to:
Magpul PRS stock
JP Trigger
VTac handguard
JP Benny Cooley Comp*
Ergo grip
chrome bolt group
*It arrived without the comp because DPMS does not carry or didn't have that comp in stock.
Overall the fit and finish is excellent, no belimishes. I got it to the range on Sunday for a function and minimal accuracy check (see the report here) and had only one minor issue. The magazine release button was sticking badly. Once at home I removed the bolt catch and magazine release. Greased up the appropriate surfaces and ran a 1/4" drill bit through the hole to clean up a small burr. Now it functions very smoothly.
Overall I'm VERY pleased with my DPMS LR-308.
I probably have one of the most recent DPMS LR-308 builds here considering it arrive from St. Paul to my FFL on Thursday.
Magpul PRS stock
JP Trigger
VTac handguard
JP Benny Cooley Comp*
Ergo grip
chrome bolt group
*It arrived without the comp because DPMS does not carry or didn't have that comp in stock.
Overall the fit and finish is excellent, no belimishes. I got it to the range on Sunday for a function and minimal accuracy check (see the report here) and had only one minor issue. The magazine release button was sticking badly. Once at home I removed the bolt catch and magazine release. Greased up the appropriate surfaces and ran a 1/4" drill bit through the hole to clean up a small burr. Now it functions very smoothly.
Overall I'm VERY pleased with my DPMS LR-308.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I own a 308 b
this is really my bitch about it is the short handguard.
if you use a bipod and have big hands it can be a problem
i am going to change out the short handguard for a rifle length one w/ a low profile block to get more room for my hands
I own a 308 b
this is really my bitch about it is the short handguard.
if you use a bipod and have big hands it can be a problem
i am going to change out the short handguard for a rifle length one w/ a low profile block to get more room for my hands
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Love my DPMS 308LR & 260LR upper , will get an 18" heavy upper someday $$
Love my DPMS 308LR & 260LR upper , will get an 18" heavy upper someday $$
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I am on my second LR-308 because like an idiot I sold my first one to try something else. Wasn't too thrilled with the something else so now I am back and happy.
I am on my second LR-308 because like an idiot I sold my first one to try something else. Wasn't too thrilled with the something else so now I am back and happy.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
My DPMS 308LR doesnt shoot as well as my bolt guns but I never expected it to.
It does however give nothing up on Unknown Distance ranges. One fun thing to do is put a new guy on it and have him ring a 700 yard steel target with rounds in the air before the first hit.
It has been very reliable and very good on a feral hog gaggle. RUN lil piggies!
I thought it was a good buy at 950 with the mags and case. Savage prices an F Class rifle around a grand.
My DPMS 308LR doesnt shoot as well as my bolt guns but I never expected it to.
It does however give nothing up on Unknown Distance ranges. One fun thing to do is put a new guy on it and have him ring a 700 yard steel target with rounds in the air before the first hit.
It has been very reliable and very good on a feral hog gaggle. RUN lil piggies!
I thought it was a good buy at 950 with the mags and case. Savage prices an F Class rifle around a grand.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Same here I'll take my DPMS LR-308 with few mods that I have done to it any day of the week with no worries.The 2 biggest things that will vastly improve your experience is change the trigger and buy a P-Mag.
Same here I'll take my DPMS LR-308 with few mods that I have done to it any day of the week with no worries.The 2 biggest things that will vastly improve your experience is change the trigger and buy a P-Mag.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
The only problem with my LR308 24" is feeding. I hear that P mags solve this problem and there seem to be alot that have this same thing. I got a plastic mag with the gun and it broke, I sent it back and they sent me a steel DPMS mag. I bought another one and with both mags the 2nd round will get jammed but not all the time. But like I said everyone has said to use the P mags. Accuracy is good with it though.
10 rounds of 43gr of varget. I wasn't really tring for acuracy but instead going for funtion of my reloads and it still grouped well.
These 3 shot groups are with 168 FGMM ammo. This was the first time out after the "break in"
The only problem with my LR308 24" is feeding. I hear that P mags solve this problem and there seem to be alot that have this same thing. I got a plastic mag with the gun and it broke, I sent it back and they sent me a steel DPMS mag. I bought another one and with both mags the 2nd round will get jammed but not all the time. But like I said everyone has said to use the P mags. Accuracy is good with it though.
10 rounds of 43gr of varget. I wasn't really tring for acuracy but instead going for funtion of my reloads and it still grouped well.
These 3 shot groups are with 168 FGMM ammo. This was the first time out after the "break in"
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: handym3000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own a 308 b
this is really my bitch about it is the short handguard.
if you use a bipod and have big hands it can be a problem
i am going to change out the short handguard for a rifle length one w/ a low profile block to get more room for my hands</div></div>
I was kinda wondering about this. Was trying to find one to fondle to see if this would be an issue.
Thanks for all the info. I found a killer price on new 308Bs. I'll find out in about three hours whether or not the DPMS is in the cards. If the Saiga, with the barrel cut and crown and an exhaustive load development, still won't shoot under 2MOA for ten all the way out to 400 ... DPMS it is. The Saiga will become my hog gun. I think I am trying to make the S308 do something it just isn't meant to do.
Thanks again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: handym3000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own a 308 b
this is really my bitch about it is the short handguard.
if you use a bipod and have big hands it can be a problem
i am going to change out the short handguard for a rifle length one w/ a low profile block to get more room for my hands</div></div>
I was kinda wondering about this. Was trying to find one to fondle to see if this would be an issue.
Thanks for all the info. I found a killer price on new 308Bs. I'll find out in about three hours whether or not the DPMS is in the cards. If the Saiga, with the barrel cut and crown and an exhaustive load development, still won't shoot under 2MOA for ten all the way out to 400 ... DPMS it is. The Saiga will become my hog gun. I think I am trying to make the S308 do something it just isn't meant to do.
Thanks again.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Nothing wrong with DPMS. IMHO most problems with all the .308 platform AR's is operator error. My personal preference is ArmaLite and Noveske but I would take a DPMS at the right price.
Nothing wrong with DPMS. IMHO most problems with all the .308 platform AR's is operator error. My personal preference is ArmaLite and Noveske but I would take a DPMS at the right price.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
the cost for the parts is like 80-90 and to switch it out with tools comes to about 120-130. that's pretty cheap to change it and very easy to do.
the switching out is a piece of cake
it constantly shoots 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards with lithuanian surplus
the cost for the parts is like 80-90 and to switch it out with tools comes to about 120-130. that's pretty cheap to change it and very easy to do.
the switching out is a piece of cake
it constantly shoots 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards with lithuanian surplus
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Been lurking for a while and saw this so decided to register and post.
I have both a DPMS 308B and AP4 and really like both after I got past the DPMS magazines causing jams and swapped to all Magpul magazines. Both feed like a dream now. Some people have zero issues with the DPMS mags, however I would recommend returning them to DPMS for a swap to a 4 or 10 round for hunting and just use the Magpuls. The DPMS mags just were not designed right in my opinion. Magpul mags eliminated all my cussing and swearing and are cheap.
From an accuracy perspective shooting both side by side at the range you could probably drive the same groups with either. However the 308B seems to be more consistent as the barrel warms up... the heavy barrel seems to help regulate the heat better and a borrowed Crono only showed marginal variances in velocities between the 308B 18" barrel and the AP4's 16" barrel with flash hider. If you are going to hike at all I would go with the AP4 as it feels a world lighter and can be comfortably shoot without a rest. I am playing around with a Mako recoil stock, but don't have enough experience with it yet to comment. On my AP4 I have a Limbsaver AR pad which made it WAY easier to shoot and control with follow up shots. (I have bad shoulders so I enjoy shooting more with a little extra padding).
From my experience great rifles after I got past the stock magazine issues causing all the initial hubbub.
Been lurking for a while and saw this so decided to register and post.
I have both a DPMS 308B and AP4 and really like both after I got past the DPMS magazines causing jams and swapped to all Magpul magazines. Both feed like a dream now. Some people have zero issues with the DPMS mags, however I would recommend returning them to DPMS for a swap to a 4 or 10 round for hunting and just use the Magpuls. The DPMS mags just were not designed right in my opinion. Magpul mags eliminated all my cussing and swearing and are cheap.
From an accuracy perspective shooting both side by side at the range you could probably drive the same groups with either. However the 308B seems to be more consistent as the barrel warms up... the heavy barrel seems to help regulate the heat better and a borrowed Crono only showed marginal variances in velocities between the 308B 18" barrel and the AP4's 16" barrel with flash hider. If you are going to hike at all I would go with the AP4 as it feels a world lighter and can be comfortably shoot without a rest. I am playing around with a Mako recoil stock, but don't have enough experience with it yet to comment. On my AP4 I have a Limbsaver AR pad which made it WAY easier to shoot and control with follow up shots. (I have bad shoulders so I enjoy shooting more with a little extra padding).
From my experience great rifles after I got past the stock magazine issues causing all the initial hubbub.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except for a magazine issue that was easily resolved mine has been flawless. If I had to grab my socks and run it would be my go-to gun. </div></div>
+1 Just stick with Pmags or 19rd DPMS.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except for a magazine issue that was easily resolved mine has been flawless. If I had to grab my socks and run it would be my go-to gun. </div></div>
+1 Just stick with Pmags or 19rd DPMS.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
clean and LUBE it to make sure the bolt moves freely by hand.
Cleaned and smothered in mobile1 before firing, bolt still would barely turn by hand. Yes I understand all the manufacturing tolerance stuff, I don't expect six-sigma.
If the bolt doesn't move freely, the wear is terrible. Shiny spots on cam pin are .001 wear after 17 rnds. DPMS CS said it was just a mag problem. Disassembled and lubed, clean and lube again, moved the bolt about 30 times before it moved easily.
clean and LUBE it to make sure the bolt moves freely by hand.
Cleaned and smothered in mobile1 before firing, bolt still would barely turn by hand. Yes I understand all the manufacturing tolerance stuff, I don't expect six-sigma.
If the bolt doesn't move freely, the wear is terrible. Shiny spots on cam pin are .001 wear after 17 rnds. DPMS CS said it was just a mag problem. Disassembled and lubed, clean and lube again, moved the bolt about 30 times before it moved easily.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I've got several DPMS 19 rd magazines and they are all problematic. None can be fully loaded and work. I've heard on another board that DPMS has recently resolved the issue.
Probably just an internet rumor but has anybody heard anything similar?
P-MAGs fully loaded works just fine.
I've got several DPMS 19 rd magazines and they are all problematic. None can be fully loaded and work. I've heard on another board that DPMS has recently resolved the issue.
Probably just an internet rumor but has anybody heard anything similar?
P-MAGs fully loaded works just fine.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I am currently building a DPMS LR308, I just wanted to speak up about the company alittle, I am no incrediable source of knowledge BUT, I spoke with a rep at DPMS on the phone for 45 minutes this morning. I never felt rushed off the phone and he even put me on hold a few times to grab other lines. I learned ALOT from the experience. Like stated He walked me through what is 308 SPECIFIC, and what you have to go throw to make sure a gun works properly. Really opened my eyes to the fact that these are still "somewhat one off" . He said most of the complaint calls he receives are fixed within 10 minutes of asking what buffer/spring your using or upper/lower configuration. If this company was really trash, I dont see a person spending 45 minutes on a phone when I clearly said I wasn't buying anything till the fluted 18 inch are available again. Very helpful and I cant wait to get a fluted 18 inch upper!!
I am currently building a DPMS LR308, I just wanted to speak up about the company alittle, I am no incrediable source of knowledge BUT, I spoke with a rep at DPMS on the phone for 45 minutes this morning. I never felt rushed off the phone and he even put me on hold a few times to grab other lines. I learned ALOT from the experience. Like stated He walked me through what is 308 SPECIFIC, and what you have to go throw to make sure a gun works properly. Really opened my eyes to the fact that these are still "somewhat one off" . He said most of the complaint calls he receives are fixed within 10 minutes of asking what buffer/spring your using or upper/lower configuration. If this company was really trash, I dont see a person spending 45 minutes on a phone when I clearly said I wasn't buying anything till the fluted 18 inch are available again. Very helpful and I cant wait to get a fluted 18 inch upper!!
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I recently picked up a LR-308 Oracle. I have only 350 rounds down the tube, but I have had ZERO problems with mine. Even after doing some mods she runs perfect.
This is how it came....
And how it looks now......
I recently picked up a LR-308 Oracle. I have only 350 rounds down the tube, but I have had ZERO problems with mine. Even after doing some mods she runs perfect.
This is how it came....
And how it looks now......
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I had a DPMS 308 for a while and never really had an operational issue with it. That said, the stock trigger was pretty rough but I took the time to clean that up a bit though it really needed a nice aftermarket. At the time about the only issue with some seemed to be slightly tight or rough chambers, which were generally fixed by a minor buffing/polishing of the chamber. A small fix that took all of just a couple of minutes.
I had a DPMS 308 for a while and never really had an operational issue with it. That said, the stock trigger was pretty rough but I took the time to clean that up a bit though it really needed a nice aftermarket. At the time about the only issue with some seemed to be slightly tight or rough chambers, which were generally fixed by a minor buffing/polishing of the chamber. A small fix that took all of just a couple of minutes.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
The Saiga didn't do too badly, considering I had malfs on every stage due to ammo - I had to use my practice ammo because I ran out of time to prepare, and the Federal cases were losing primers and dropping powder into the chamber all day. For the shots I actually took, it wasn't quite the disaster I thought it was going to be. I think it's workable for now.
Thanks for the info and advice, all!
The Saiga didn't do too badly, considering I had malfs on every stage due to ammo - I had to use my practice ammo because I ran out of time to prepare, and the Federal cases were losing primers and dropping powder into the chamber all day. For the shots I actually took, it wasn't quite the disaster I thought it was going to be. I think it's workable for now.
Thanks for the info and advice, all!
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
Had a 7.62 NATO shot great,very heavy,had an extractor fail was grabbing way to hard almost ripping the lip of the brass. Got rounds stuck in the barrel repeatedly.had to disassemble the halves,take the bcg out and push the round out with cleaning rod.only had 20 ends thru it.took it back to my gun store we switched the bcg out with an sass(same basic upper except gas block) worked fine.sold it still working fine and one heck of a shooter according to the guy who bought it.
Had a 7.62 NATO shot great,very heavy,had an extractor fail was grabbing way to hard almost ripping the lip of the brass. Got rounds stuck in the barrel repeatedly.had to disassemble the halves,take the bcg out and push the round out with cleaning rod.only had 20 ends thru it.took it back to my gun store we switched the bcg out with an sass(same basic upper except gas block) worked fine.sold it still working fine and one heck of a shooter according to the guy who bought it.
Re: Recent reliability info on DPMS 308Bs?
I have a 24" fluted bull barrel upper on a Fulton lower. JP trigger and PRS stock.
Only shot a few hundred though it, but no issues at all so far.
Shoots 2-3 MOA with RSA surplus and 0.5-0.75 MOA with FGMM 168 and 175gr.
I have a 24" fluted bull barrel upper on a Fulton lower. JP trigger and PRS stock.
Only shot a few hundred though it, but no issues at all so far.
Shoots 2-3 MOA with RSA surplus and 0.5-0.75 MOA with FGMM 168 and 175gr.
