Reloading beginner

[JoshcBoucher]

Woah!!!

I ordered a sweet jewelry scale on amazon for powder measurement that was $123 bucks. It measures to the grain!

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You want to weigh to the tenth of a grain, at least! Or, maybe you're "caught" with the catch 22 of reloading explaining "grains", cause I called it like that with a friend. "I measured to the grain" (Meaning a single spec of powder}

 

[waveslayer]

You're right. The very kernel of powder.

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[Deadshot2]

You want to weigh to the tenth of a grain, at least! Or, maybe you're "caught" with the catch 22 of reloading explaining "grains", cause I called it like that with a friend. "I measured to the grain" (Meaning a single spec of powder}

You're right. The very kernel of powder.

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Probably a better term would be "granule".

My question is, and always has been, is it all that important to make sure your loads are weighed down to the granule when you can't sort case capacity to that level of accuracy? When there are larger variations in bullet dimensions that create different case volumes even though the OAL measurements are all exact?

I shoot with a guy who's an avid Bench Rest shooter. He has a "Rail Gun" he holds a National Record with for smallest group aggregate at I believe 200 yards, 10 shots. Just over .100". Even though this rifle rides on a pair of rails, returns to battery after every shot, and the crosshairs in the scope remain on the "X" throughout the entire travel on the rail, recoil and return (the whole setup weighs over 65 lbs), he only weighs his powder to the nearest "tenth" using a Chargemaster. He spends a ton of time on case preparation and bullet sorting. Powder weight? Not so much.

Super sensitive and accurate scales are nice but when handloading, they can be a major bottleneck with their super sensitivity to vibration, air movement, etc. Maybe after you have cases that are EXACTLY the same by volume, not weight, bullets that are exact in all dimensions, and you can shoot to a level of accuracy where ammo is the only remaining factor---------I guess then it's appropriate to be able to pick the fly poop out of the ground pepper.

Just saying.

 

[KillShot]

After much going back and forth between Whidden, Forster, and Redding...I decided on the Redding.

Graf & Sons - REDDING 308 WINCHESTER TYPE S MATCH FULL DIE SET


And I decided to go with this, for a powder measure setup.

Amazon.com: RCBS Advanced Powder Measure Stand: Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com/RCBS-98909-Competition-Powder-Measure-Rifle/dp/B004XZG8O0

Amazon.com: RCBS Powder Trickler: Sports & Outdoors


So now I'm left with needing to buy a powder scale, reloading trays, stainless media, tumbler, and...?

 

[waveslayer]

Get a sonic cleaner. Reloading trays are all good. I have rcbs and MTM trays. As for a scale get the Gem pro 250 precision. Off amazon. It will weigh to the actual kernel of powder on Varget, 7828, and every two kernels of powder for XBR, etc..

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[JustCallMePapa]

My $0.02, read TresMon's articles in the Reloading section, I think they are the first five stickys. Those articles read first, then study and read everything on reloading you can. Here's the first thing to keep in mind, you will be building little bombs that you plan to detonate just inches from your face.
As for an answer to your question, the items you've listed will get you will be fine to get you started. Obviously, according to your profile, you have the means to upgrade later and have a full understanding of quality.
Please be safety minded, good luck and enjoy?


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[trickyric]

couple of things. If you are going to spend the premium dollars get an RCBS chargemaster. You will not regret it.
As for a tumbler, I swear by the Thumler tumbler. It is a rock tumbler that works with stainless media, soap and water. If you deprime your brass before you clean it the Thumler will clean the pockets for you.
Seriously made my reloading life a million times easier.

 

[datguy]

The STM Rebel 17 kit is a huge improvement on the Thumbler. Brass comes out looking like new, inside and out.

 

[trickyric]

The STM Rebel 17 kit is a huge improvement on the Thumbler. Brass comes out looking like new, inside and out.

View attachment 33648
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I can't comment on which is better. I have a thumler and I have never had any trouble with it.
There is a company called bigdawg that makes one that people really like but it is almost twice the price.

 

[trickyric]

Here is a link to Bigdawgs
Biggdawg Tumblers stainless wet tumblers

 

[KillShot]

Here is a link to Bigdawgs
Biggdawg Tumblers stainless wet tumblers

Yeah, to hell with that nonsense. I'll get one of the kits from www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com

 

[datguy]

KillShot, you will not regret the STM kit. I've ran several thousand cases through mine. It is awesome. I loaded some of the .45acp last night. I'm very happy with the setup.

 

[JRM83]

I have been using an ultrasonic cleaner for a few years, received my first vibratory tumbler recently, and have a Rebel 17 stainless kit due to arrive tomorrow. Most of my complaints about ultrasonic apply equally to SS, although not all. Ultrasonics are really good for getting a small quantity of brass really clean. It does an excellent job on the primer pockets and case interior (except in quantity). They are terrible at cleaning large quantities until you start shelling out as much money for an ultrasonic as you will on a stainless setup. In terms of cleaning effectiveness stainless beats the hell out of everything for getting brass clean, inside and out. Stainless can do volume much better than ultrasonic as well. The biggest downsides to both ultrasonic and stainless are decapping everything first and having to handle every piece of brass. The other issue is that when you use a lanolin-based case lube it is a pain in the ass to get it off the cases with wet tumbling. I admit I haven't had any firsthand experience with Lanolin and SS, but I remember reading a review where the person mentioned it was a pain (which mirrored my experiences with ultrasonic).

When I first started reloading I liked ultrasonic because it was inexpensive to get into and effective at cleaning cases. With more experience under my belt I've come to hate it with a passion. To prep a set of cases after being fired from a POF-P308 I would have to decap them all, run them in the ultrasonic, dry the cases, lube and resize, then clean the lube off either by hand or with the ultrasonic. It just takes too much time and energy to get so little in return. With the vibratory tumbler it's just dump them in and tumble, run through separator (easier than dealing with wet cases), lube/resize, and then a quick tumble to remove the lube. It all gets a little easier when loading for a bolt gun as the cases are often clean enough that I will lube and size them without cleaning first, then run them afterwards.

If I had to pick just one, it would be a vibratory tumbler because they just give you more flexibility than wet cleaning. Running cases to clean, polish, or remove lube is no big deal as it's easy to dump cases in, run, and separate. Wet cleaning forces you to go through a lot of extra work to clean the cases. Vibratory tumblers will also get the outside of your cases much shinier than ultrasonic will.

Having said all that, I believe stainless has its place. Nothing else out there will get the brass as immaculately clean as it will. Dirty range pickup brass will look just like factory new after cleaning. Vibratory tumblers won't clean the carbon from the interior or primer pockets of a case like wet tumbling will. And unlike ultrasonic, SS can handle brass in volume.

 

[datguy]

Reloading beginner

With the exception of my .308 brass I do not decap anything prior to stainless wet tumbling. I see no reason to worry about primer pockets in pistol/223 brass for plinking rounds. I dump cleaned wet brass on towel, roll around in the towel and then spread out with a fan blowing over them off a few hours. Works great.

Since the cases are now clean, I use a cob media vibratory tumbler to remove case lube after sizing rifle brass. The dry media stays clean for a very long time.

 

[JRM83]

With the exception of my .308 brass I do not decap anything prior to stainless wet tumbling. I see no reason to worry about primer pockets in pistol/223 brass for plinking rounds. I dump cleaned wet brass on towel, roll around in the towel and then spread out with a fan blowing over them off a few hours. Works great.

Since the cases are now clean, I use a cob media vibratory tumbler to remove case lube after sizing rifle brass. The dry media stays clean for a very long time.

The reloader in me who likes shiny and clean brass agrees with everything you said. The reason I decided to pick up a vibratory and stainless setup was so I could run them exactly like you're describing.

The logical part of me wonders why go through the trouble of stainless tumbling for plinking rounds when the vibratory will work just as well. Yes, the interiors will be cleaner, but it's just plinking rounds!

I am just trying to add a different perspective than the oft repeated "GO WET TUMBLING IT'S THE BEST!" mantra that gets repeated too frequently. Every cleaning tool has it's place and that gets lost when you only have 1 opinion going around.

 

[datguy]

JRM83, well said. I had vibratory first. I like stabiles because then the brass is clean before it touched any of my reloading gear. Instead of that tiny dust being airborne from the vibratory media, it washes down the drain.

I've bought a lot of "clean" brass and still ran it through the stainless wet cleaner. The photos I posted above are exactly that.

 

[trickyric]

There is a thread on this forum where people had some leaking issues with the Rebel 17. Could have just been an isolated incident.
Do the people who have one on this thread have any issues?

 

[datguy]

Any link to a thread? I have not had any leaking issues. I've run around 8000 cases through it in the short time I've had it. Very happy with it.

 

[trickyric]

here on the hide

" I still have a little leaking from the drum but I've been setting it in a large tub like they use bussing tables so no puddles on the floor. "

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...g/228288-extreme-tumbler-rebel-17-better.html

 

[trickyric]

Clearly yours works great so it was probably just a bad unit.

 

[Deadshot2]

Reloading trays are all good. I have rcbs and MTM trays.

If you have a drill press (or a friend with one) save money on Loading Trays or "Blocks". I hit the local hardwood lumber yard for a piece of hardwood. Was able to cut 4 pieces the same size as an MTM reloading tray for about $12. Made a paper template for 50 holes. Using a 1/2" Forstner bit (cuts really clean, flat bottomed holes) I first marked the holes using the spur on the paper template, just running the bit down to the dot that showed where I wanted a hole and marking the wood. I then set the depth stop for my hole depth. Drilled all the holes, sanded the edges of the block to round them then sprayed with some clear Minwax. I used "Jatoba" for the wood which is also known as Brazilian Cherry. Not only did I get inexpensive blocks, but they look pretty damn good as well. The nice thing about making your own is that you can also choose your own design. Want a block of 25 for load development? Cut it smaller and drill fewer holes. Want a block of 10 for matches, likewise.

The commercial blocks are compromises. They have extra holes and the holes are sized to fit just about everything out there. Custom built have the right sized holes and no extra holes to collect crap.

Tip: Drill a smaller hole in the center of each hole's bottom. This lets anything that might fall in the hole, like spilled powder granules, to fall through.

 

[trickyric]

If you have a drill press (or a friend with one) save money on Loading Trays or "Blocks". I hit the local hardwood lumber yard for a piece of hardwood. Was able to cut 4 pieces the same size as an MTM reloading tray for about $12. Made a paper template for 50 holes. Using a 1/2" Forstner bit (cuts really clean, flat bottomed holes) I first marked the holes using the spur on the paper template, just running the bit down to the dot that showed where I wanted a hole and marking the wood. I then set the depth stop for my hole depth. Drilled all the holes, sanded the edges of the block to round them then sprayed with some clear Minwax. I used "Jatoba" for the wood which is also known as Brazilian Cherry. Not only did I get inexpensive blocks, but they look pretty damn good as well. The nice thing about making your own is that you can also choose your own design. Want a block of 25 for load development? Cut it smaller and drill fewer holes. Want a block of 10 for matches, likewise.

The commercial blocks are compromises. They have extra holes and the holes are sized to fit just about everything out there. Custom built have the right sized holes and no extra holes to collect crap.

Tip: Drill a smaller hole in the center of each hole's bottom. This lets anything that might fall in the hole, like spilled powder granules, to fall through.

Very cool. A bit of work though.
can you post pictures of your creations?

 

[JRM83]

here on the hide

" I still have a little leaking from the drum but I've been setting it in a large tub like they use bussing tables so no puddles on the floor. "

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...g/228288-extreme-tumbler-rebel-17-better.html

Just got mine today. No leaks.

As for reloading trays, the Hornady universal trays are the bees knees for .308. They fit like a glove with no finagling at all. Works for other calibers as well, but outstanding for .308 Win in particular.

 

[trickyric]

Just got mine today. No leaks.

As for reloading trays, the Hornady universal trays are the bees knees for .308. They fit like a glove with no finagling at all. Works for other calibers as well, but outstanding for .308 Win in particular.

Great to read that.

 

[Deadshot2]

Very cool. A bit of work though.
can you post pictures of your creations?

I think it took an hour to drill all the holes and a few minutes on each block with a belt sander. Pics if I get new batteries for the cam

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

I'd like to see that. I work in a machine shop, so maybe ill make up a few of those blocks for .308, .223 etc


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[trickyric]

I'd like to see that. I work in a machine shop, so maybe ill make up a few of those blocks for .308, .223 etc


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I sense a business opportunity coming on,,,,,,

 

[datguy]

I bought pair of aluminum .308 loading blocks on ebay for a pretty fair price. They are heavy enough that they are nice and solid on the bench. I really like them.

 

[KillShot]

The Redding competition dies and Saturn powder funnel arrived today. The Co-Ax will be here tomorrow and the Redding powder measure, stand, and powder trickle will arrive next week. I'm stoked and anxious to get started.

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

Good stuff! I'm actually reloading as we speak. I'll post a pic


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[Thediscgolfkid]

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[Kosmos]

Killshot - keep the pics and comments coming - I am in the same boat - but about 1-2 mos behind you - learning a lot from this thread.


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[Thediscgolfkid]

I jumped into reloading when I was like 19, started with .223 (destroyed plenty of cases!). I'm 25 now, and I've got my reloading down pretty well. I just use a lee kit, and I got 2nd place at the Folsom midrange championship for the tactical class. So I must be doin something right eh? Lol. Don't be afraid to just jump into it. It's really not all that difficult. But I suggest buying a cheapy digital scale, and go on amazon to pick up a 10$ set of scale check weights. Before you start weighing your powder, make sure it's within 0.1 gr accurate, and you're good to go!

Also, a load that works great in one rifle, may not work good in another (even if its the same exact model). Some barrels prefer different powder charges. I've settled into an accuracy node with my charge, and I might fiddle with it +\- 0.2gr just to see what happens, but it works great for me.


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[Leok20]

This thread has been helpful. I have been kicking the idea around and didn't really know where to start.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Doc68]

This is how:
Lapua brass .85
Primer .04
Bullet .30ish
Powder .16
Components are conservatively 1.35/ea

In my opinion to load consistent ammo I'd want the following:

Comparator setup (for measuring base to shoulder and ogive) $40
Press $150+ (I'm not a big fan of Lee or Hornady presses)
Seating die, bushing Neck die, Body die (these can be had in a set for about $225
Bushings - I ended up with four $80
I use a 21st century expander mandrel at times about $40
Flash hole reamer. I use 21st CSP again $40 if I remember right
Priming tool $30+
A way to clean brass. In my opinion stainless pin media wet tumbling is the only way to go. $275
A way to measure powder charge. I use a charge master type scale. Lots of options. $150++
A way to trim necks. Wilson trimmer is great. I have about $200 into mine.
Need a way to chamfer and debur necks. I use a Lyman case prep center thing. Can do with a drill or by hand as well. $20+

Then there's the nick nacks and nice to haves:
Satern powder funnel
Loading blocks
Depriming die
Cob media tumbler for when that makes sense (like after sizing to remove lube)
Neck micrometer
Digital scale
Concentricity gauge. I just ordered the accuracy one model.

Then the experimenting-testing out different cases, bullets, powder, etc.

Actual load development will require a chronograph if you don't already use one.

Don't get me wrong, I own all I'm listing and a whole lot more. I have thousands in my reloading bench and I still want a high quality digital scale (or Prometheus), bench source annealer, and a Dillon S1050 for my .45acp. I love hand loading. It is just as much a part of the process to me as pulling the trigger. What everyone says is "you get into reloading to save money, but you spend a lot more."

I hope this helps. There's a lot to be gained by tuning the ammo to your rifle and intended use.

Great pricing list. But you have to divide how many times you are gonna reload the brass itself. So if you are say gonna reload it 10times then your price per reload of the brass drops to 8.5 cents. Just my .02 worth. If you reload it 20 times which is very possible with Lapua brass then it would drop to 4.25 cents per reload. So the overall cost of your hand loads drops dramatically!

 

[KillShot]

A local Hide member contacted me with a steal of a deal on an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 he was about to put up for sale, and gave me first dibs. I stole it for $200 and aside from a few stray grains of powder, it doesn't look as though it was used. The reloading bench will arrive next week and I'll be a little closer to having a full setup.

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

Good deal dude. I think I'm gonna pick one up soon too, makes quick and accurate work for bolt guns! For .223 and .45 I don't really care for precision like I do for bolt guns though. I actually use a scooper for .223 lol


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[trickyric]

A local Hide member contacted me with a steal of a deal on an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 he was about to put up for sale, and gave me first dibs. I stole it for $200 and aside from a few stray grains of powder, it doesn't look as though it was used. The reloading bench will arrive next week and I'll be a little closer to having a full setup.

View attachment 34533

now your cooking with peanut oil!

 

[Kosmos]

that was a good deal! best I can find online right now is about 300bux shipped no tax - I am jumping in... my T7 press just showed up... I have a long ways to go - keep the
log/thread going I am learning.

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

If you guys would like a list of the equipment I use to reload, I can write down each step next time I'm reloading. It's mostly lee equipment. But they're very precise loads!


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[Kosmos]

It would be helpful to me - I read stuff and start thinking I need all this "stuff" and I just don't know enough yet of what is really needed -must have VS nice to have... (don't want to hijack the thread either)
a good example is something simple as a powder funnel - get the basic RCBS or spring for the saturn? the cost delta is nil in the grand scheme of things - for me I am going for maximum precision -
I want to exceed factory loads and produce the results on paper at distance.

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

Good choice. I started reloading to save money... But now I do it to get better ammo the saving money part is just a perk now hahaa


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[Toast]

I compiled a list a couple months ago. Prices have gone up since then. Natchez, Midsouth,

1. Lee classic cast press $93
2. Gempro 250 scale $122 - Rcbs 750 powder scale 120 or Smart reloader isd automatic powder scale @ natchez 165
3. Hornady dial caliper 55
4. Lyman bullet puller 20
5. Lyman Case Prep Xpress 119
6. Lyman case trimmer $97:
7. Frankford Arsenal Tumbler
8. RCBS Universal Hand Priming Tool $57
9. Lyman lube kit 20
10. Mtm powder funnel kit 15
11. Redding powder trickler 20
12. Lee perfect powder measure 20
13. Lee Universal Shell Holder Set for Presses25
14. Lee 2nd Edition Modern Reloading Manual 13
15. Two MTM Universal Loading Trays 13
16. Stuck Case Remover – Forster 20

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

So here is my process (pretend that the brass has been fired a few times, and the necks are getting brittle).

Using an electric drill, I take the lee case holding tool http://www.midwayusa.com/product/476992/lee-case-trimmer-cutter-and-lock-stud

and the corresponding shell holder

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/271467/lee-case-length-gage-and-shellholder-308-winchester

And with this in the drill, I can turn case necks over a torch, to anneal the brass (you can quench brass, it doesn't harden like steel does in water).

Next, I use a Lyman tumbler. I let them tumble for a couple hours or so.

After that, I take my nice shiny brass inside, and I put some case lube on each one, one at a time (don't lube too close to the shoulder or the brass will buckle, you will learn this the hard way).

Next, I have my lee challenger, single stage press. I have the lee .308 die set (but we only use the full length die and the seating die, not the crimp.) the full length die also removes the spent primer (if you didn't already know.)

Now that all my cases have been reshaped, some brass has moved forward a couple thousandths of an inch. So here's where I use C-clamps to hold my Hornady case length trimmer to my reloading bench. It is incredibly accurate at trimming case length.

After all that is done, we have to clean the primer pockets with a primer pocket cleaning tool... Pretty self explanatory lol.

Okay, so now that our brass is annealed, cleaned, sized, and trimmed, were ready to prime them! I use my lee in-press priming tool, it takes longer to prime than a hand priming tool, but it has more torque.

Now the fun part, powder charge!

I use the lee perfect powder drop thingy that came with the challenger kit. It drops pretty dang close to what I want (it's micro-adjustable, but even just 3 granules of h4895 will throw the weight off 1/10th grain). So I drop a charge into my PRIMED case, then I pour the powder out onto my Frankfort armory electronic scale, 42.0 grains of h4895 is what my gun loves. After each case is charged, were ready for bullet seating.

I switch out my full length sizer die with my seating die. I then place each case in the holder, place a bullet on the case, and push er' in! No crimping required

Note: you will need to adjust your dies and case trimmer to the correct settings, which we can help you out with once you get there

If I forgot anything, I'll throw it in, I think I got it all though


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[Thediscgolfkid]

Yep you'll need a bullet puller and calipers also. The funnel comes with the lee kit. The lee kit also has lube, powder measure, beam scale, etc


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[dogdude]

Anyone trying to save $$ in this game, isn't going to be saving many targets. dogdude

 

[NorthRidgeArms]

I just wanted to add my two sense. The initial cost for the equipment will be expensive; I recommend a good used press a lot of times they just need a good cleaning. I picked up my Dillon 650 from Barns Bullets when they moved to their new location. Dillon also has a life time no BS warranty. Dillon was great to work with and sent me new parts to ensure it was working. I load many calibers one being the 308. I use the 168 match bullet from sierra and I am shooting 3 shot groups at 200 yards which I can cover with a dime. This is with a progressive press. I also have a used RCBS single stage press; which works great.

If you don’t include the initial cost of the equipment the reloading is not even in the same ballpark of factory ammo. Federal makes the same load I am shooting (federal sierra matchking- 168 gr hpbt) the cost for this load is $34.75+tax. My cost is $28.08 the first time loading (because the cost of brass), but the second time reloading drops to $10.88 (don’t need to buy more brass). Over the time of reloading 8 times the average cost for reloading 20 rounds $13.03, and if my brass last longer the average only goes down. The difference between buying Factory and buying the equipment to do it yourself can be made up really fast. The sooner you start reloading the sooner you make up the difference.

 

[Keizer09]

I'm probably an idiot, but I am starting out and thought that I would try to buy equipment that I would never have to replace if I liked the hobby---also thinking that I could sell that type of quality for a good price if I didn't enjoy reloading.

Forster press and redding competition dies.
Giaraud trimmer
Dillon 550 B ( this was a mistake I think but it is in the box and I may sell it).

My thinking was that I am reloading to build better quality ammo and good equipment is always in demand. I have started a few hobbies and found that it is more expensive to have to upgrade and it can be more frustrating as well.