Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

[dms416]

Last year, Lowlight made multiple references to Schmidt & Bender's "implosion" in BigJimFish's SHOT 2013 thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...166468-bigjimfish-shot-show-2013-archive.html

It appears that there isn't much discussion regarding S&B's here as there once was, and I am hearing very little about them in regards to SHOT 2014.

Where does S&B stand one year later? Have they sunk deeper, or is there any hope of a rebound?

 

[Olive]

From what I've seen nothing has been talked about other than the NF Beast. Frank Galli has an enormous following and his word means everything in this business and on this Forum, if he tells you "It's the shit" than believe him. So why would anyone consider buying anything else in that price range. Add the fact the the price for the new S&B are double what the Beast is and you have your answer.

 

[dms416]

From what I've seen nothing has been talked about other than the NF Beast. Frank Galli has an enormous following and his word means everything in this business and on this Forum, if he tells you "It's the shit" than believe him. So why would anyone consider buying anything else in that price range. Add the fact the the price for the new S&B are double what the Beast is and you have your answer.

Actually, no that did not answer my question...on several levels. I have known of Frank and his rep for a long time now (don't let my post count mislead you), and I heed his advice. And I'm sure the BEAST will be the shit for its given share of the market.

I'm merely curious whether there were any similar observations at THIS year's show. I have my guesses on what the answer may be, but it never hurts to ask.

 

[Olive]

Actually, no that did not answer my question...on several levels. I have known of Frank and his rep for a long time now (don't let my post count mislead you), and I heed his advice. And I'm sure the BEAST will be the shit for its given share of the market.

I'm merely curious whether there were any similar observations at THIS year's show. I have my guesses on what the answer may be, but it never hurts to ask.

Sorry to disappoint. Maybe Frank should chime in. I was clearly misled by your post count.

 

[USACS]

Because your post count is huge too...
You didn't answer his question either. You just went off-topic. Nobody is denying that the BEAST is a great piece of kit, but it has nothing to do with the OP's question.
Also, last I checked S&B was not selling any of their scopes for $6,000-8,000. That would be about twice the BEAST, right??

 

[918v]

One day I'll pay $7000 for a scope, one day...

 

[gyz77]

S&Bs new 3-27 with Horus is 7299 or 7999 I can't remember.

 

[Olive]

Because your post count is huge too...
You didn't answer his question either. You just went off-topic. Nobody is denying that the BEAST is a great piece of kit, but it has nothing to do with the OP's question.
Also, last I checked S&B was not selling any of their scopes for $6,000-8,000. That would be about twice the BEAST, right??

Check again. their prices are over 6K for their 3-27.

This was the OP's question: Where does S&B stand one year later? Have they sunk deeper, or is there any hope of a rebound?

My answer was not off topic, it was just not what he wanted to hear but I can rephrase:

Because of launch of the new NF Beast and other new scopes and Schmidt and Bender's recent price hike, Yes, at double the price tag of others, I believe Schmidt and Bender is standing on unstable ground, for now. As for rebounding, well, Schmidt and Bender has been around providing the best product for longer than most, so, yes I believe they will rebound.

As for mentioning the post count, I only did it because the OP mentioned it and it has no merit at all, so I was being facetious.

I hope this will satisfy those who felt my answer was off topic. If not, no need to tout your chest, you'll only be doing it in front of your computer.

 

[Laseredge]

Schmidt Bender PM II 3-27x56 High Power Scopes for sale!

S&B PMII 3-27X56 $6K-$6.5K

 

[steve123]

S$B is flat out raising their prices too much which makes most of the other top tier scopes much more appealing. Arguably the 5-25 is still holding it's own after all these years. I find it odd that S$B didn't put 10Y parallax on their other scopes! This feature was what swayed my decision to get their 5-25 in 2013. For some stupid reason they are not offering mil/mil FFP with .1 clicks on their 12.5-50??? As someone mentioned their MTC knobs turned out to be a abortion. The 3-20 turned out to be a disappointment to some also. Now they want almost $4400 for their Ultra short and nearly $7000 for their 3-27. Go ahead S$B, dig your hole deeper.

I'll turn my attention to the other Co's, especially March.

Okay, I've had to edit this post!

I ended up buying a S&B 3-20 after thinking long and hard about which features are most important for me.

I got it at a discount which was a deciding factor in the purchase decision.

It turns out the MTC turrets are the most awesome turrets I've ever used! Even more so than the regular DT's on the 5-25x56.

I can only find one fault on the 3-20x50. It has a slightly tighter eyebox than the 5-25. Other than that the scope is absolutely stellar!

 

[pmclaine]

How much of the "implosion" of S&B is the result of other manufacturers putting out products on parity with S&B? S&B is a mature product. We are wowed by other scope manufacturers now producing products that are equal in operation. A common comment is "this is as good/better than S&B". They are still the standard. Im sure S&B is a conservative company also. I think they have a business formula and wont be likely to bring "bling" to market just to create interest.

Ive heard of issues with the MTC turrets. Some legit QC issues/some owner induced/some the result of people not appreciating the different feel for good personal reasons. Others love the milestone click. Other than that it seems the optics and mechanics are still solid. Id guess financially they are sound. Still in this economy they are cutting costs by reducing liability. If I drop my rifle on its scope they will not fix it gratis no matter how much I paid for the scope nor should I expect them to. Germany has a functioning economy and a very organized labor pool. I imagine their costs to manufacture and deal with regulations are greater than what we experience here and ask a small business owner here they will tell you how much the gov costs them to just open the door.

I havent been following this sport long but in my short immersion to rifles scopes etc. I note a race for improvement, better, bigger stronger. At what point do you max out the capabilities of equip to be better, bigger, stronger? When we get used to the continued advancement does the maturity of technology become an "implosion"?

If there is no technology advancement that comes along to bring a product to another level manufacturers need to focus on peripherals or gimmicks. All our equip is old tech, a steel barrel, a cartridge design from the 19th century, and a tube with glass at both ends. Sure things have gotten bigger, better, stronger but by small degrees regards equipment. What has gotten so much better is the riflemens knowledge and ability to read and factor for his gear and environment. Its the indian not the bow?

S&Bs new pricing is probably based on their idea that the PMII market is mature. Profits have been made and what comes now is a steady trickle. In order to keep bigger profits coming raise prices on the new scopes. Their technology isnt better (save building a 3-27 erector range must be a challenge) than what is already there but they can create market demand with a premium price.

I dont think their new scopes are intended for big market share. They want profit from those that can afford it or they know agencies and governments wont care what the tax payer pays for the gear.

Just my thoughts.


PS - Keep in mind Europe is a place that likes to tell the market what it wants. America of the recent past was a place that demands the market to produce what it wants or some individual puts his balls on the line and makes what the market does not. America of my youth will give you USO with 31 flavors. Europe will give you what they think is necessary.

 

[Edsel]

PS - Keep in mind Europe is a place that likes to tell the market what it wants. America of the recent past was a place that demands the market to produce what it wants or some individual puts his balls on the line and makes what the market does not. America of my youth will give you USO with 31 flavors. Europe will give you what they think is necessary.

Indeed!

 

[dms416]

If the 3-27x isn't earth-shattering (and possibly a dog), what's up with the pricing? Is it the same logic as when the Leupold CQBSS hit the market and it's priced for the gov't or is it due to the 9x erector ratio (and who the hell asked for that?)? Or what makes the Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56 worth $7k? Rather, what's with this $7k pricing benchmark?

Just thinking out loud here, would it be a viable option to rather than re-invent the wheel with 8x and 9x erector ratios and what not...to streamline and economize what they already do well?

What would it take to produce a 1-4x and make it lighter, stronger and at a better price rather than having a 1-8x fumble in development hell for nearly half a decade?

What about taking something like their base 3-12x PMII's and having them compete with say the Nightforce F1 in terms of price.

Why can't they do like what Accuracy International is doing...making what was yesterday's new hotness (AW/AT) and making it the entry level (what was the AE) and pricing it accordingly?

 

[Edsel]

If the 3-27x isn't earth-shattering (and possibly a dog), what's up with the pricing? Is it the same logic as when the Leupold CQBSS hit the market and it's priced for the gov't or is it due to the 9x erector ratio (and who the hell asked for that?)? Or what makes the Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56 worth $7k? Rather, what's with this $7k pricing benchmark?

I was hoping to get the new Hensoldt as well.

I'm not sure how much of this is to recoup R&D + manufacturing costs, or a "just because" kind of thing.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Beyond the release and good reviews of the 3-20x50, S&B has fallen out of the spotlight. S&B was at the top of the list for glass quality, reliability, FFP, etc. for a long time. However now that other companies have begun encroaching into the ~$3000-$3500 tactical 5-25x56 market (NF BEAST, Kahles 624i, Steiner Military, USO, March, etc.) and have shown to have similar features, S&B is having much more direct competition.

The 5-25x56 PMII is S&B's flagship scope and has undergone little change over the years. Now when you have options like internal bubble levels (USO), push button illumination (USO), alternate elevation click value thing (NF BEAST), the design of the PMII has gotten a little stale compared to the competition. A lot of these are not deal-breakers and most options are luxuries more than anything, but the market is fickle and new options are favored.

Throw in their releases last year of the 3-27x56 and 5-20x50 and they don't seem in tune with what most on this site are geared toward. A $6k+ (3-27x56) optic had better involve nightvision, thermal, and/or the ability to have Mila Kunis make me bacon nekkid. The 9x erector is impressive, but I don't think I'll ever be able to justify spending that much coin on a non-NV/Thermal scope. The 5-20x50 seems to be a direct competitor for the 3-20x50 that they offer with no real benefit AND higher cost.

S&B's non-release of the 1-8x Short Dot is also a black eye. I understand they have testing, trials, etc. to do so that they release the best product possible, but since they mentioned this scope, USO has released an excellent offering for the 1-8x crowd. SWFA, Vortex, and Leupold have also entered this market with their 1-6x scopes as well. Look at what is happening with the TNVC WASP. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the extended delay since announcement has hurt their reputation. I’m not saying to rush to market, but in the case of the 1-8x Short Dot I think a delayed announcement closer to release would have been prudent over a three year span.

I believe S&B will rebound, but honestly believe Nightforce is in the best position to dethrone them.


P.S.- It should be mentioned that I own and love my 5-25x56 PMII and will also be in the market for a BEAST this year when I get my Gradous Rifle built!

P.P.S.- I am not bashing TNVC at all. I have full confidence that when the WASP is released, it will meet/exceed expectations. In fact, when I am in the market for night vision (a year or two) I’ll probably be contacting them to help me out.

 

[Colcalcipherol]

Note to S$B: This topic clearly illustrates why I switched to Steiner . . .

 

[dms416]

Note to S$B: This topic clearly illustrates why I switched to Steiner . . .

+1 Despite being exclusively S&B for the last decade (9 optics by my count), Nightforce is now getting my money

 

[Shoottothrill]

I have yet to look thru a scope that is on par with my S&B PM 11 5-25x, ya some are close but thats it just close. The Beast is like a Unicorn that will probably eventually show itself and sounds like it will be on par with the S&B. Will it be better glass wise? That will be subjective some will say yes, others no. I still believe that S&B is the gold standard in glass quality. Just because some companies come out with a couple new gadgets on their scopes and the gear Whores jump on them does not mean that S&B has lost it place in the market. S&B does not have to continually change their scopes features to entice the masses. It's still just that good. Go ahead and run around buying the next best thing, The S&B will ride on my rifles for a long time to come.

 

[Roddd]

It's my understanding, and mind you I haven't looked through one yet, that the S&B 3-27 is leaps and bounds past the current (and relatively old technology) 5-25. I think S&B had to spend a hefty chunk of capital in R&D of their new scope to bring it to the market. Once they start noticing return on their investment, I think prices of the new line may come down a bit and we will start seeing the release of new scopes from them with the current glass technology. We saw it with AI and their PSR and how it translated to their release of the AT and AXMC. At least, I hope that's the case.

 

[pmclaine]

What would it take to produce a 1-4x and make it lighter, stronger and at a better price rather than having a 1-8x fumble in development hell for nearly half a decade?

Looks like USO did the second last year and the first this year.
....but Im still waiting on my SR8M ordered this time last year. The good of this wait is I will take advantage of new design they did not have than (Mini EREK). But I really want my scope all the same.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

If I drop my rifle on its scope they will not fix it gratis no matter how much I paid for the scope nor should I expect them to.

Just my thoughts.

PS - Keep in mind Europe is a place that likes to tell the market what it wants. America of the recent past was a place that demands the market to produce what it wants or some individual puts his balls on the line and makes what the market does not. America of my youth will give you USO with 31 flavors. Europe will give you what they think is necessary.

Well, you are wrong regarding them fixing your scope for free, here is the link to address that, all true be told, that Schmidt and Bender WILL take care of you: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...xcellent-customer-service-schmidt-bender.html

As for your comments regarding Europe, you should live there first before you comment on their society. They have rules, just like we have rules. For example, automobiles sold here have a LOT more regulations to overcome as opposed to in Europe. I leave you with this gem of a quote: "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action" -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

Sie wissen ga nichts hier mein herr.

 

[beenjammin]

7k???
I don't know about implosion, but they sure must be smoking something over there. Gracious.

 

[matt2143]

People seem to not understand that not all scopes are designed for the civilian market. So to answer the reason why S&B designed a scope that is not much more magnification range that. A 5-25 but costs 3k more? Simply because a contract asked for it and they delivered. They were nice enough to decide to produce enough to sell to the general public. That scope was never meant to compete with anything but a contract. So why do people get offended?????

Now a $4250 TT scope that is designed for the masses that is essentially $600 over a S&B! Why not compete with a lower price?!

 

[phillip61]

People seem to not understand that not all scopes are designed for the civilian market. So to answer the reason why S&B designed a scope that is not much more magnification range that. A 5-25 but costs 3k more? Simply because a contract asked for it and they delivered. They were nice enough to decide to produce enough to sell to the general public. That scope was never meant to compete with anything but a contract. So why do people get offended?????

Now a $4250 TT scope that is designed for the masses that is essentially $600 over a S&B! Why not compete with a lower price?!

You can get the IOR Recon for about $3500. It's the best damn scope on the planet, bar none, period.

 

[matt2143]

Just think. You could have two of the best scopes in the world (IOR) for the price of one 7k Schmidt!!!

 

[GUNNER10]

People seem to not understand that not all scopes are designed for the civilian market. So to answer the reason why S&B designed a scope that is not much more magnification range that. A 5-25 but costs 3k more? Simply because a contract asked for it and they delivered. They were nice enough to decide to produce enough to sell to the general public. That scope was never meant to compete with anything but a contract. So why do people get offended?????

Now a $4250 TT scope that is designed for the masses that is essentially $600 over a S&B! Why not compete with a lower price?!

but here is the thing, schmidts/NF beast/Stiener/TT are not 3000 dollar scopes, knowing that leupold is making money off their substantially discounted mk6's and mk8's through there Mil/fed/le program, these companies are making a killing dumping their stuff on the civilian market and everybody is eating it up and asking for seconds

Come on.... there’s really no significant difference between the Mk8 and a beast or a SB or TT or whatever. One scope might have a slightly different mil based recticle, one might have a slightly different elevation and windage assembly that makes the clicks "feel" different. One may get an extra foot or two with your field of view, you might get an extra tenth inch in your eyebox. The zoom ratios are all going to be pretty much the same. One zero stop may be a little easier to set up than the next.

you can’t tell me that a slightly different internal elevation or zero stop assembly that are about the size of a quarter, add roughly the same amount to a scope that a complete enhanced LMT MRP upper sold at retail prices.


the beast for a 1000 over a mk8... pass,
a legacy S&B for a 1000 over a mk8... lol....No
a TT for almost 2 grand over a MK8... bwahhahahahahahahah
a S&B with 2 less on the bottom and 3 on top for an extra 4000... There nothing i can even say.

Manufactures are raising their prices faster than colleges raise tuition. Considering that companies like bushnell and SWFA have figured out how to make repeatable, reliable, optics with great glass is not exactly like putting a man on the moon.

 

[dms416]

....AND I think I have my answer:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...age-s-b-leupold-vortex-mcree.html#post2906304

Just under $4k (it will probably be $4k when they get here) and now I have to pick which of the 2 key concepts I want with the scope. Half the scope, ALL the price?!?!

Thanks for playing folks

 

[RyeDaddy]

You can get the IOR Recon for about $3500. It's the best damn scope on the planet, bar none, period.

Phil, stop smoking that shit. It's killing your brain.

 

[steve123]

You can get the IOR (Recon-ditioned) for about $3500. It's the best damn scope on the planet, bar none, period.

Here, I fixed it for you.

 

[pmclaine]

Well, you are wrong regarding them fixing your scope for free, here is the link to address that, all true be told, that Schmidt and Bender WILL take care of you: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...xcellent-customer-service-schmidt-bender.html

As for your comments regarding Europe, you should live there first before you comment on their society. They have rules, just like we have rules. For example, automobiles sold here have a LOT more regulations to overcome as opposed to in Europe. I leave you with this gem of a quote: "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action" -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

Sie wissen ga nichts hier mein herr.

Oh Im fully aware S&B often fixes stuff gratis. Plenty of examples of that right on this site and the rep that tags in here is a great resource. What I find in the gun business is that most legit vendors bend over backwards for their customers. Thing is you do see posts on here that start "After removing the turret on my 5-25 it doesnt work, this is bullshit and S&B should do something for me".

As for living in Europe when I was in Moscow for 6 months the conditions were you buy whats on the shelf whether you need it or not for the mear fact its available. Granted that was 1988 and that is unfair to consider Mike Gorbachevs Moscow representative of Europe.

So moving on to cosmopolitan Geneva in the Conderation Helvetica to live for 18 months I found very nice products and plenty of choice. High end products particularly were in abundance. I noted in my original post about the rules in both Europe and the US. Europe seems to give its citizens more personal responsibility than the US, ie unlimited speed limits on the autobahn. In personal behavior the US is the greater nanny state. When it comes to labor, taxation and social programs Europe is more restrictive and we are speeding ahead to join them. That socialism costs money and that money does not come from thin air it comes from us.

European products are good and they are based on traditions that have been proven to work. American products can be good but we also produce a lot of crap that screams fail. There is a reason Europe has Drillings and classic doubles while we have High Points in the counter across from a Knights Armament AR. I like the dynamics of our economy that accepts failure and is willing to supply the lowest common denominator. When we do hit it we hit it out of the park and send it over to China as quickly as possible to cheapen it and sell it.

My biggest experience regarding Europe knows whats best for you was at restaurants. If a table of Marines wants to drink beer with their warm cheese fondue bring the fucken beer and let us worry about the bound bowels without the speech thank you.

FYI - Best moment in Raising Arizona "He was especially hard on the little things."

 

[peaceatwar]

but here is the thing, schmidts/NF beast/Stiener/TT are not 3000 dollar scopes, knowing that leupold is making money off their substantially discounted mk6's and mk8's through there Mil/fed/le program, these companies are making a killing dumping their stuff on the civilian market and everybody is eating it up and asking for seconds

Come on.... there’s really no significant difference between the Mk8 and a beast or a SB or TT or whatever. One scope might have a slightly different mil based recticle, one might have a slightly different elevation and windage assembly that makes the clicks "feel" different. One may get an extra foot or two with your field of view, you might get an extra tenth inch in your eyebox. The zoom ratios are all going to be pretty much the same. One zero stop may be a little easier to set up than the next.

you can’t tell me that a slightly different internal elevation or zero stop assembly that are about the size of a quarter, add roughly the same amount to a scope that a complete enhanced LMT MRP upper sold at retail prices.


the beast for a 1000 over a mk8... pass,
a legacy S&B for a 1000 over a mk8... lol....No
a TT for almost 2 grand over a MK8... bwahhahahahahahahah
a S&B with 2 less on the bottom and 3 on top for an extra 4000... There nothing i can even say.

Manufactures are raising their prices faster than colleges raise tuition. Considering that companies like bushnell and SWFA have figured out how to make repeatable, reliable, optics with great glass is not exactly like putting a man on the moon.

I've never looked through a Leupold that compared to my 5-25 in clarity and brightness. I don't want to see a fuzzy target I want it to be crisp and clear.

If anyone in the DC/MD/VA/PA/WV/DE is willing to let me do a side-by-side comparison I will put my foot in my mouth if its deserving.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

You can get the IOR Recon for about $3500. It's the best damn scope on the planet, bar none, period.

!?!

 

[dylanmj]

I made a decision to steer away from S&B because there are many threads here discussing declining quality, and then their move to drop the lifetime warranty didn't reinforce a lot of confidence to the quality concerns. I'm not even going to try to say that S&B doesn't make great scopes, because by all reviews/photos through glass/and real world practice, the evidence is overwhelming.

Another German company that used to have an excellent track record and reputation for reliability was Mercedes Benz. Most car surveys that I am aware of these days put MB towards the bottom of the reliability list.

If a company doesn't continue to value quality, giants can fall. Whether that is happening with S&B, I won't know...bought a Steiner instead

 

[beenjammin]

Dms that was awesome. I needed that one today.

 

[dms416]

Dms that was awesome. I needed that one today.

The power of a well-placed .gif can do great things, my friend.

 

[nicko]

Half you guys got me stressing I had a choice between a Leupold mark 8 and a Schmidt with dt turrets I went with the Schmidt (my first one after using a bushnell hdmr this year) I hope I made the right decision...

 

[sinister]

I had previously posted this in a Schmidt-Bender thread last year:

(Schmidt and Bender) scopes have higher retail cost in the USA due to import taxes and tariffs.

The Schmidt-Bender is the current standard to measure from as far as worldwide military use. They are having problems maintaining their professional engineering staff, and meeting market demand.

The Premier was designed and built by the engineers who built the Schmidt-Bender PM II, then left for Optronika. For all intents and purposes some specialists call it a "Police Marksman III." I have heard reports of older Premiers having extreme cold weather problems with the internals not moving due to the cold. The US Marine Corps uses their 3-15X scope.

The Steiner has the advantage of the licensed MSR reticle. The glass quality may not be as good but the telescope has some nice features and appears to be a good value.

Given the problems Schmidt and Bender has had recently in getting their 1-8 Short Dot and other new scopes to market it will be interesting to see how they fare in the next five years. I don't think they're going away, but it doesn't look like they're growing (or keeping happy) their professional design and manufacturing staff, either.

Schmidt-Bender's talent woes have benefited Optronika -- the grass seems greener there, and with Optronika producing the Premier / Tangent Theta scope in Germany now the quality level may have bumped back up to Teutonic QC standard.

I don't think any of the original Schmidt or Bender families are still involved in the company.

Should Schmidt and Bender lose JerryR's talent and service for US customers they'll be in for a real hurtin'.

 

[Jmilera]

What is everyone referring to when they say that SB are imploding and that certain scopes suck? Is it because they do not take I to account what the customers want or because their QC is beginning to suck? I am looking into buying two scopes and SB was on my list so please advise.

 

[Shoottothrill]

On the whole Europe thing I can think of a couple examples of superior products off the top of my head. Accuracy International nuff said. S&B nuff said. They have only been the leaders for the last ten + years and probable will be forever. To say S&B is declining is total bullshit. If you don't like the prices don't buy them. I don't like their prices either, but its still the best scope, and yes I did buy one, still don't like the price.

Also I've never been to Europe and probably never will. I only love one country and that's the United States of America. Why we can't build the best I have no idea.

 

[jbell]

On the whole Europe thing I can think of a couple examples of superior products off the top of my head. Accuracy International nuff said. S&B nuff said. They have only been the leaders for the last ten + years and probable will be forever. To say S&B is declining is total bullshit. If you don't like the prices don't buy them. I don't like their prices either, but its still the best scope, and yes I did buy one, still don't like the price.

Also I've never been to Europe and probably never will. I only love one country and that's the United States of America. Why we can't build the best I have no idea.

I agree completely. Although NF is on the right track. But IMO the PMII is still the benchmark, although there are some getting closer and closer...

 

[RCS1278]

I had previously posted this in a Schmidt-Bender thread last year:



Given the problems Schmidt and Bender has had recently in getting their 1-8 Short Dot and other new scopes to market it will be interesting to see how they fare in the next five years. I don't think they're going away, but it doesn't look like they're growing (or keeping happy) their professional design and manufacturing staff, either.

Schmidt-Bender's talent woes have benefited Optronika -- the grass seems greener there, and with Optronika producing the Premier / Tangent Theta scope in Germany now the quality level may have bumped back up to Teutonic QC standard.

I don't think any of the original Schmidt or Bender families are still involved in the company.

Should Schmidt and Bender lose JerryR's talent and service for US customers they'll be in for a real hurtin'.

God forbid JerryR leaves the company. I went with a 3-20 based on stories of his customer service and his prompt replies to my emails.

 

[gimpy]

but here is the thing, schmidts/NF beast/Stiener/TT are not 3000 dollar scopes, knowing that leupold is making money off their substantially discounted mk6's and mk8's through there Mil/fed/le program, these companies are making a killing dumping their stuff on the civilian market and everybody is eating it up and asking for seconds

Come on.... there’s really no significant difference between the Mk8 and a beast or a SB or TT or whatever. One scope might have a slightly different mil based recticle, one might have a slightly different elevation and windage assembly that makes the clicks "feel" different. One may get an extra foot or two with your field of view, you might get an extra tenth inch in your eyebox. The zoom ratios are all going to be pretty much the same. One zero stop may be a little easier to set up than the next.

you can’t tell me that a slightly different internal elevation or zero stop assembly that are about the size of a quarter, add roughly the same amount to a scope that a complete enhanced LMT MRP upper sold at retail prices.


the beast for a 1000 over a mk8... pass,
a legacy S&B for a 1000 over a mk8... lol....No
a TT for almost 2 grand over a MK8... bwahhahahahahahahah
a S&B with 2 less on the bottom and 3 on top for an extra 4000... There nothing i can even say.

Manufactures are raising their prices faster than colleges raise tuition. Considering that companies like bushnell and SWFA have figured out how to make repeatable, reliable, optics with great glass is not exactly like putting a man on the moon.

I have a mk8 and think highly of it, as does Leupold. I just got their new .mil pricing today, and its $900 higher than last year.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is my S&B Update:

First off, the S&B 5-25x is optically still the gold standard which all other scopes are judged by. No one questions that, and since the optical design in the 5-25x has not changed, clearly we are not talking about that single scope optically.

To start, you guys are too way too narrow minded in your understanding of what I say. I also encourage you read Sinister's post above mine, post #37.

Personally I think the locking turrets are / were a big mistake. The early ones has a recognized problem and S&B has addressed this problem. I don't think the fix has been 100% effective, but they have fixed it. If you look at an old locking turret, and a new one, there is a small pin added to help fix it. So they have quietly addressed it.

The Ultra Short line has a lot of nice features and changes over the locking turrets of the previous design are worth mentioning. They have greatly improved them. Sure you have to look at the need for a very long 3-20x when compared to the 5-25x and now the very short, 5-20x vs the 3-20x in the same line. Also you have to consider the prices. They are up there.

Clearly we are in the age of the $7000 scope. There are several models on the street now touching this price point. That is a big picture problem to address, for many on several levels, us & them.

There is also some nice military innovations happening in the 5-25x line, like linking an external ballistic solver that adds an overlaying HUD to the shooter's FOV. Neat stuff.

In the US, with Jerry R at the wheel, we have always had excellent customer service. His attention to their customers is outstanding. There is never a worry that it won't get fixed and in a timely manner, most of the time for very little money. He is also the reason why many can look at the change with the warranty and most likely dismiss it. However, the change to a 2 year warranty can be a long term costly one for us and them.

I have a lot of S&Bs and will continue to use S&B, maybe not to the degree I have in the past, but certainly in some fashion. The one true statement here I will make is, I have definitely had to use their customer service a bunch more in the last 1.5 years vs only having to use it once in the previous 8 years. So weigh that into the equation however you want. But I believe it has some merit.

Competition is growing, and because the 5-25x is the Gold Standard you have a lot of their competitor's using it to raise the bar with new products. It's not that hard for them to put out a competing product for less money with similar features at the same quality level as the Gold Standard. I can't think of one manufacturer that doesn't have a S&B 5-25x sitting on their desk to use as a measuring stick. Built it and they will come, and it has been plenty long enough for competition to catch up. I get quoted resolutions numbers all the time, and they will say to me, "Frank the S&B we have resolves 2.8 and our new scope resolves 2.3.... "

At the end of the day it is your money, it is going on your rifle and only you can decide. What I like, how I see it, only really matters to me. Buy whatever makes you happy. If you want to pay close to $7k or better for a new 3-27x, or new Hensoldt, more power to you. If you like March, Vortex, NF, even that piece of junk from IOR, fly that flag and be proud. You made your decision, stick with it. But if you think you are doing anything more than fooling yourself that you'll be a better shooter because you choose S&B over product X, well I have very expensive bridge to sell you. It's really splitting hairs with a lot of this at the end of the day. So pick the scope with the features that are important to YOU. You have to live it, I don't... The scope is just one small part of the picture.

I had two very pleasant conversations with S&B. I think the Ultra Short scopes are a nice addition to the line, but, their competition is walking through the door right behind them now. Make no mistake the new scopes at SHOT 2014 from NF, Vortex, March, Tangent Theta, Kahles, are really, I mean, Really, really good... they are looking that gold standard directly in the eye.

 

[jbell]

Damn well put Frank, very true on all counts.

 

[Jmilera]

Cool beans cheif!!

 

[Olive]

Experience is the best teacher.

 

[diverdon]

What is everyone referring to when they say that SB are imploding and that certain scopes suck? Is it because they do not take I to account what the customers want or because their QC is beginning to suck? I am looking into buying two scopes and SB was on my list so please advise.

I would not want to say the scopes suck. But, if you get the MTC turrets expect more of a learning curve than their ought to be.

 

[Foweis]

Here is my S&B Update:

First off, the S&B 5-25x is optically still the gold standard which all other scopes are judged by. No one questions that, and since the optical design in the 5-25x has not changed, clearly we are not talking about that single scope optically.

To start, you guys are too way too narrow minded in your understanding of what I say. I also encourage you read Sinister's post above mine, post #37.

Personally I think the locking turrets are / were a big mistake. The early ones has a recognized problem and S&B has addressed this problem. I don't think the fix has been 100% effective, but they have fixed it. If you look at an old locking turret, and a new one, there is a small pin added to help fix it. So they have quietly addressed it.

The Ultra Short line has a lot of nice features and changes over the locking turrets of the previous design are worth mentioning. They have greatly improved them. Sure you have to look at the need for a very long 3-20x when compared to the 5-25x and now the very short, 5-20x vs the 3-20x in the same line. Also you have to consider the prices. They are up there.

Clearly we are in the age of the $7000 scope. There are several models on the street now touching this price point. That is a big picture problem to address, for many on several levels, us & them.

There is also some nice military innovations happening in the 5-25x line, like linking an external ballistic solver that adds an overlaying HUD to the shooter's FOV. Neat stuff.

In the US, with Jerry R at the wheel, we have always had excellent customer service. His attention to their customers is outstanding. There is never a worry that it won't get fixed and in a timely manner, most of the time for very little money. He is also the reason why many can look at the change with the warranty and most likely dismiss it. However, the change to a 2 year warranty can be a long term costly one for us and them.

I have a lot of S&Bs and will continue to use S&B, maybe not to the degree I have in the past, but certainly in some fashion. The one true statement here I will make is, I have definitely had to use their customer service a bunch more in the last 1.5 years vs only having to use it once in the previous 8 years. So weigh that into the equation however you want. But I believe it has some merit.

Competition is growing, and because the 5-25x is the Gold Standard you have a lot of their competitor's using it to raise the bar with new products. It's not that hard for them to put out a competing product for less money with similar features at the same quality level as the Gold Standard. I can't think of one manufacturer that doesn't have a S&B 5-25x sitting on their desk to use as a measuring stick. Built it and they will come, and it has been plenty long enough for competition to catch up. I get quoted resolutions numbers all the time, and they will say to me, "Frank the S&B we have resolves 2.8 and our new scope resolves 2.3.... "

At the end of the day it is your money, it is going on your rifle and only you can decide. What I like, how I see it, only really matters to me. Buy whatever makes you happy. If you want to pay close to $7k or better for a new 3-27x, or new Hensoldt, more power to you. If you like March, Vortex, NF, even that piece of junk from IOR, fly that flag and be proud. You made your decision, stick with it. But if you think you are doing anything more than fooling yourself that you'll be a better shooter because you choose S&B over product X, well I have very expensive bridge to sell you. It's really splitting hairs with a lot of this at the end of the day. So pick the scope with the features that are important to YOU. You have to live it, I don't... The scope is just one small part of the picture.

I had two very pleasant conversations with S&B. I think the Ultra Short scopes are a nice addition to the line, but, their competition is walking through the door right behind them now. Make no mistake the new scopes at SHOT 2014 from NF, Vortex, March, Tangent Theta, Kahles, are really, I mean, Really, really good... they are looking that gold standard directly in the eye.

Very we'll put man. So now that it's over have you realized or kinda felt any specific company or scope that's absolutely standing out, what I'm trying to say is what scope would sit on your rifle if we ever do get an Alien invasion. Lol.?

 

[dms416]

Very we'll put man. So now that it's over have you realized or kinda felt any specific company or scope that's absolutely standing out, what I'm trying to say is what scope would sit on your rifle if we ever do get an Alien invasion. Lol.?

That pretty much defeats the entire point of Frank's post.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Oh Im fully aware S&B often fixes stuff gratis. Plenty of examples of that right on this site and the rep that tags in here is a great resource. What I find in the gun business is that most legit vendors bend over backwards for their customers. Thing is you do see posts on here that start "After removing the turret on my 5-25 it doesnt work, this is bullshit and S&B should do something for me".

FYI - Best moment in Raising Arizona "He was especially hard on the little things."

I never had problems with the turrets. I went with the MTC Locking turrets. That solved a lot of the issues you mentioned. The nice thing is, Jerry Ricker will make that stuff right also.

Cool stuff regarding your experiences in Russia, not quite Europe, but close enough.

Yes, the best moment in the movie is that quote when he shoots the fluffy bunny rabbit without hesitation. Thank you for giving me a smile and a chuckle on that one.