I've learned the hard way to never argue with Graham. Whats up dude, you know I love you man.......but. It could be said the the scope provides in some sense of the word a "service" to it's customer. And, again, it's the customer that decides what products and services are of good quality, and like this thread proves beyond any shadow of any doubt, customers opinions vary.
Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?
- Thread starter dms416
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I've learned the hard way to never argue with Graham. Whats up dude, you know I love you man.......but. It could be said the the scope provides in some sense of the word a "service" to it's customer. And, again, it's the customer that decides what products and services are of good quality, and like this thread proves beyond any shadow of any doubt, customers opinions vary.
Consider the Bushnell is assembled in Japan out of Chinese parts just like Leupold is assembled in Oregon out of Chinese parts. S&B and Zeiss are assembled in Germany out of German parts by Germans demanding a 30% higher labor rate.
The cost of an ERS is $800. The retail is $2100. Do you think S&B and Zeiss have a 120% markup?
If the ERS is an $800 scope, just how good do you think it is?
The cost of an ERS is $800. The retail is $2100. Do you think S&B and Zeiss have a 120% markup?
If the ERS is an $800 scope, just how good do you think it is?
That's weird, You'd better tell that to all the 4WD guys here driving Landcruisers and Hilux's
they better learn to tighten their boot straps like everybody else. i drive a ford focus so i can swing a Surgeon rifle with a PMII MSR on top, time to make some hard decisions SB.
Down here where I live I would say guys drive Toyota and Nissan 4X4s at a rate of 2:1 over ford and chevy. And the Honda Four wheelers (which I own one) by far out numbers all others combined on the mud runs I go on.
Since when is a Landcruiser a car??? Ever taken your Civic off road? How'bout just through a dip or a pot hole? Those pieces of shit can't hold their alignment. I bent the suspension of my Civic going through a dip at 45 MPH. A Crown Vic eats dips and pot holes for breakfast.
My wife HAD a Malibu. Potholes ate it. Twisted the sway bar and flattened the ballpoints at 12,000 miles. Her Toyota takes a licking and keeps on ticking. My Mercedes.... Well, league of it's own. I have been loyal to Leupold because of the discount the offer military, but am taking my first chance with Nightforce. I would love to buy S&B but can't get past their warranty or the feedback one of my old Army buddies has given based on what he was issued.
Of course, I wasn't comparing a Bushnell to a SB. I know the SB is a better scope all around. I was simply saying that you don't need to spend $4000 to get a great performing piece of glass.
Now when you compare better quality companies like Vortex and Nightforce, it's obvious that the gap between them and the more esoteric offering like SB, Hensoldt and Premier is getting slimmer and slimmer.
So again, let's concede that SB and Hensoldt are the ne plus ultra and surpass offerings from Vortex for example. The question is by how much? 10%......15%.... Maybe only 5%? They cost as much as 100% more to achieve it though.
You even mentioned yourself, there are many factors that go into price of products from other countries.....mainly labor costs and import taxes.
Those things mean nothing to quality.
I wasn't making a comparison from a model perspective...simply from a marketing perspective and that the business world is absolutely crammed to the gills with examples of people over paying for things, product or service regardless.
High end audio is an example. I can show you $100,000 dollar amplifiers using World War II tube technology, $160,000 speakers as big as Volkswagons, or how about $10,000 speaker cables that I'd bet you couldn't tell the difference between them and extension cables from home depot.
I whole heartedly agree that most times you get what you pay for...to what degree though.
There is a massive difference between a $2000 scope and a $500 scope. There is much much less difference between a $2000 scope and a $4000 scope.
As the price and quality goes up you have to spend significantly more money to make even minor gains. At one point you reach a deminishing return.
US Army issued S&B? I guess he's a secret squirrel guy because I didn't think the US Army ever issued S&B stuff.
I'm pretty sure guys in 5th SFG or any ODA have the ability to procure what the unit wants.
And what was his feedback?
He didn't like the build quality. Granted, he probably showed it more of a workout than I ever would, but pair his feedback with the 2 year warranty and I will look at other brands. He had great things to say about Nightorce, as do most people. That's why I'm going to give them a whirl.
"There is a massive difference between a $2000 scope and a $500 scope. There is much much less difference between a $2000 scope and a $4000 scope."
I beg to differ.
There is a massive difference between a $2000 scope and a $4000 scope internally.
I beg to differ.
There is a massive difference between a $2000 scope and a $4000 scope internally.
You're making things up.
Better glass, better springs, better construction, better electronics, better baffling, better coatings on metal surfaces, better sealing, etc.
For what rifle?
Last time (about a year ago) I was down with 7th Group they has NF 3-15 F1 H58 on the MK13s
And what scope companies have you been too and saw this, "Better" cause I have been to several factories and can tell you something different
The mk13 or XM 2010 is what he said they had used them on. Ironically, he liked the Horus reticle. I can't say that I love it on my mk8, but I'm sure it has its place.
Some guys had S&B scopes with Horus reticles in them... a few one offs that were sold to them when they were looking at the Horus.
Same thing with USO, a few Rangers had USO scopes with Horus reticles in them.
They were far and few between and honestly the S&Bs I saw with the Rangers were going from man to man, took a ton of punishment with no issue.
One issue might have been that locking turret they had, it was a little wonky
Same thing with USO, a few Rangers had USO scopes with Horus reticles in them.
They were far and few between and honestly the S&Bs I saw with the Rangers were going from man to man, took a ton of punishment with no issue.
One issue might have been that locking turret they had, it was a little wonky
These are very powerful arguments and you bring up good points. Through hyperbole, you could also compare this to the out sourcing of our work to overseas manufacturers.
Do we remember when products were of high quality in general? Now a days, I see a lot of crap being sold for $1.00 and then being told by poor people that it is just as good as the old stuff. It is crap, period. So when we talk about how a scope is just as good as another scope, just think, you are supporting overseas slave labor in the context of price savings versus comparable product. Do not confuse the two. There is a big difference between the scope manufactures products mostly in features and quality. I think more in features.
Being German and growing up as a child in Germany, I have a fondness for German products. It is a weakness. I am just glad that my Schmidt and Bender delivers.
And what did you see? Did they share their proprietary information? Do you think you're getting something for nothing? I remember reading your tour of Kahles and you specifically mentioned they didn't have anything from China laying around. Do you think Chinese glass is as good as Schott? You think all "metal" is the same? You think the pricing scheme is arbitrary?
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Seeing how I toured the Leupold factory, I can tell you they make everything in house but the Glass... the only thing sourced how you describe is the tiny screws.
Its the largest Index Factory West of the Mississippi, in fact Index stores spare parts for customer service with Leupold.
So you are wrong right there, and I can show you some "Chinese" stuff that looks like S&B... if you look a the factory sizes, Leupold with over 700 workers on site, I think you are absolutely clues, S&B is no where near as big.
In fact I toured Kahles too, and call tell you about every step of that factory. It's 1/4 the size of Leupold and has only a handful of machines.
If you think S&B is making "springs" & "screws" you are clearly misinformed, none of them do.
Its the largest Index Factory West of the Mississippi, in fact Index stores spare parts for customer service with Leupold.
So you are wrong right there, and I can show you some "Chinese" stuff that looks like S&B... if you look a the factory sizes, Leupold with over 700 workers on site, I think you are absolutely clues, S&B is no where near as big.
In fact I toured Kahles too, and call tell you about every step of that factory. It's 1/4 the size of Leupold and has only a handful of machines.
If you think S&B is making "springs" & "screws" you are clearly misinformed, none of them do.
You can spec any level of glass out of Japan you want, Nobody questions Canon or Nikon Lenses they are used much more than Zeiss
The "chinese" moniker is played out ... you have no idea
The "chinese" moniker is played out ... you have no idea
Better internals, glass and coatings? OK, of all the scope manufacturers named, you are questioning price vs quality. Which ones manufacture their own lenses, grinding, polishing and coating for themselves and who contracts out? I would think that is a big factor in quality and price?
Better as in better QC, more durable, more precisely made.
Not only better but more complicated. More lenses. More complicated lenses. More mechanical assemblies.
Look at some cutaways. Look at the Beast vs the NXS. Those pictures speak volumes.
Zeiss Kahles S&B grind their own glass. I'm pretty sure Zeiss makes everything inhouse.
Bullshit again,
Leupold has a huge QC area, computer controlled much like Kahles did, expect I did not see the shake & submerged machines at Kahles like i saw at Leupold.
Vortex is now bonding lenses in the new HD Razor line, like NF does in the NXS Mil Spec line...
More lenses, really more lenses, in which scopes... most average the same number, maybe one lenses different.
I saw the entire factory in both places, to include proprietary machines, they even explained the history of them. I even watched Leupold make reticles.
Japanese Optics are every bit that of German if you spec it to that degree, in fact Zeiss uses them. You need a machine to see the difference.
Many use Meopta where you believe it something else. Meopta is the Light Optics of Germany, it's only Zeiss that does it in house.
Leupold has a huge QC area, computer controlled much like Kahles did, expect I did not see the shake & submerged machines at Kahles like i saw at Leupold.
Vortex is now bonding lenses in the new HD Razor line, like NF does in the NXS Mil Spec line...
More lenses, really more lenses, in which scopes... most average the same number, maybe one lenses different.
I saw the entire factory in both places, to include proprietary machines, they even explained the history of them. I even watched Leupold make reticles.
Japanese Optics are every bit that of German if you spec it to that degree, in fact Zeiss uses them. You need a machine to see the difference.
Many use Meopta where you believe it something else. Meopta is the Light Optics of Germany, it's only Zeiss that does it in house.
More complicated isn't always better bro. Your just making shit up at this point.
Kahles doesn't grind their own... wrong.
Neither does S&B...
Neither does S&B...
Sometimes I quote myself.
You can spec anything you want. True. But then you end up with one scope that resolves to spec and another that doesn't in the same lot. And when you complain to the vendor he tells you to tuck off cuz he has a hundred other clients waiting in line to buy his cheap shit. It's inconsistent. From glass to heat treat to alloy uniformity. It's all shit. And they don't care because the demand is so great.
What I'm trying to say is no matter what they do, Bushnell Vortex whatever will always be cheap. Not inexpensive, but cheap. And when you are paying through the nose, might as well get something nice.
It would not surprise me, it's just a spec and companies are happy to outsource when possible.
Zeiss uses Asian glass on some models
Zeiss uses Asian glass on some models
Probably the ones that get sent to Sony.
Bullshit again,
You are making stuff up as everyone says...
They test the lots, that I have seen and I have seen the computers that test it, and even under a Loupe I could not spot the imperfections the computer rejected.
Optical designs can hide some imperfections, and clearly you have no idea what you are saying. Making stuff up is not a validation by saying something will be cheap.
Leupold makes more scopes in 8 Months than all the European companies do combined in 1 year. And if they wanted they can double that capacity.
They spec stuff and test the lots, if you think they don't you are highly mistaken.
You are making stuff up as everyone says...
They test the lots, that I have seen and I have seen the computers that test it, and even under a Loupe I could not spot the imperfections the computer rejected.
Optical designs can hide some imperfections, and clearly you have no idea what you are saying. Making stuff up is not a validation by saying something will be cheap.
Leupold makes more scopes in 8 Months than all the European companies do combined in 1 year. And if they wanted they can double that capacity.
They spec stuff and test the lots, if you think they don't you are highly mistaken.
And NF uses a Titanium spring... so much for cheap internals, they spell it all out.
Where is the cheap internals
Technology | Nightforce Optics, Inc.
Where is the cheap internals
Technology | Nightforce Optics, Inc.
I you said it was Schott glass... and since when is Hungarian glass the top of the line, who else is using Hungarian glass
I spent almost an hour with the new owner of premier and think just the opposite. Seems they really took Paul's advice and made some huge improvements. I was very impressed with the new scope. Now can they get there customer base back is the real question....and yes i own 3 SB's and have owned several premiers. After seeing the new Razor and the price point it's a game changer.
Swarovski Optik KG - Company Profile by Insideview
They own Kahles. They make lenses. Are you saying Kahles does not use their lenses ?
No, I never said that, they use Swarovski for several things... but they are not ground on site in house, they are outsourced from Swarovski. I saw the packages and those packages were still tested for quality almost exactly like Leupold does... the process is the same.
Leupold tests the lots, I was bought into the Kahles testing room where the exact same thing happens, and saw many that were rejected because of issues in the coatings. So why is one so far superior to the other when the process is identical
And again, not German Glass, Austrian, just like Hungary is not German.
And I have seen you question the resolution of scopes, I can tell you they said the BEAST is resolving 2.3 arc minutes, it's not German Glass...
At the Hunter Ball, I was the guest of Swarovski, I was invited to dinner with Danielle Swarovski and sat at her table.
Leupold tests the lots, I was bought into the Kahles testing room where the exact same thing happens, and saw many that were rejected because of issues in the coatings. So why is one so far superior to the other when the process is identical
And again, not German Glass, Austrian, just like Hungary is not German.
And I have seen you question the resolution of scopes, I can tell you they said the BEAST is resolving 2.3 arc minutes, it's not German Glass...
At the Hunter Ball, I was the guest of Swarovski, I was invited to dinner with Danielle Swarovski and sat at her table.
Gotta go for now.
isn't IOR Romania, and again, Zeiss uses Asian glass for the Conquest line.
I still don' t see how its any better from a company LOW in Japan... they spec glass, you have Canon & Nikon from there.
It's splitting hairs, a perception issue. You perceive "German Glass' as being better, but just showed everyone it is not actually sourced from German but several other places.
So the guys like Vortex who's new Razor HD line is fantastic, which is sourced from Japan, is no different than companies who source it from Hungary or Romania... Coatings are chemicals, it's not magic, and the glass is the just that. Why do you think the new NF ATACR, BEAST, and Vortex are so heavy, cause they upped the quality of the glass. From the same places.
I still don' t see how its any better from a company LOW in Japan... they spec glass, you have Canon & Nikon from there.
It's splitting hairs, a perception issue. You perceive "German Glass' as being better, but just showed everyone it is not actually sourced from German but several other places.
So the guys like Vortex who's new Razor HD line is fantastic, which is sourced from Japan, is no different than companies who source it from Hungary or Romania... Coatings are chemicals, it's not magic, and the glass is the just that. Why do you think the new NF ATACR, BEAST, and Vortex are so heavy, cause they upped the quality of the glass. From the same places.
