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Rifle Scopes SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

You realize that if the scope does not have predictable adjustments it is not a gun-sight, right? If it does not work, and by the proof of your review, it doesn't, it is just an assortment of aluminum and glass. I know you keep justifying it with the price/to feature argument, but all the features in the world do not matter if first and foremost it is not a scope that does what is asked of it...
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

You're insulting me by putting those "crazy" smilies at the end of your sentences in an effort to mock me.

If you think a scope is garbage and useless unless it has a very specific feel to the turrets, then I guess that is your business. But for me, I could feel and hear the clicks on the turrets. And I was able to put lead on target with the scope, which I am assuming is the ultimate goal of this kind of equipment. Is your ultimate goal to have a certain tactile click? If it is, there are cheaper ways to achieve that goal than with a scope.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I agree, the adjustments are not perfect. I never claimed they were. And I never claimed this was a military/combat quality scope. I'm only arguing that it is about standard for what you'd expect in the price range.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, the adjustments are not perfect. I never claimed they were. And I never claimed this was a military/combat quality scope. I'm only arguing that it is about standard for what you'd expect in the price range. </div></div>
If the adjustments do not move your point of impact the correct distance whether it be mil or moa then it is not worth a penny. and you yourself have now said numerous times that the adjustments are not perfect.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're insulting me by putting those "crazy" smilies at the end of your sentences in an effort to mock me.</div></div>Indicating that what you are saying sounds a bit crazy to me doesn't mean that I am calling you names. If I say your conclusion is flawed I am not saying that you are a flawed person.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you think a scope is garbage and useless unless it has a very specific feel to the turrets, then I guess that is your business.</div></div>I never argued that a specific feel to a turret was important - that was <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> argument because feel is a tested topic in your review. However, I do think that positive accurate adjustments are necessary and you indicate in your review that this scope does not have them.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I predict that this thread will continue for about 51 more replies by armednsafe. After that expect to see stuff from him in the for sale section
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I'm comparing the scope to the market. Not to your subjective standards. If you value a scope with imperfect adjustments (i.e. all scopes) at zero, that's fine. But again, I'm not comparing the scope to YOUR standards.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Yeah, I plan on selling my CounterSniper. I just bought a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50mm FFP.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm only arguing that it is about standard for what you'd expect in the price range. </div></div>I disagree that it is standard for that price range. As I said above, many $300 scopes will track acceptably with positive adjustments and some in that price range will track well repeatedly over time. The scope you reviewed demonstrates quality found in a much lower price range.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I'm sure there are cheaper scopes with more accurate adjustments. But they probably don't have a first focal plane reticle, or a 50mm objective lens, or a 30mm tube. I'm serious, if you can find a scope for less money that has those features that tracks significantly better, I will change my conclusion. But I also had a Nikon Buckmasters 6-18x40mm that tracked the same as the CounterSniper. However, that had a smaller objective lens, a smaller tube, and a second focal plane reticle.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, I plan on selling my CounterSniper. I just bought a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50mm FFP. </div></div>

That's like going from a 1978 Yugo to a slightly used 2009 mini-cooper lol...

<span style="font-style: italic">Edit:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure there are cheaper scopes with more accurate adjustments. But they probably don't have a first focal plane reticle, or a 50mm objective lens, or a 30mm tube. I'm serious, if you can find a scope for less money that has those features that tracks significantly better, I will change my conclusion. But I also had a Nikon Buckmasters 6-18x40mm that tracked the same as the CounterSniper. However, that had a smaller objective lens, a smaller tube, and a second focal plane reticle. </div></div>

Features are only beneficial if the scope isn't broken...
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

The reason I don't do scope reviews here is because I don't yet know enough about precision optics.

Please.....

Does the reticle have jump? Did you test that? Did I miss it in your review? Does it subtend correctly? Because there's not a single use for FFP in that scope - never mind no utility to that reticle either.

What does a 50mm objective do? It's a tourist trap, not a feature: By itself it accomplishes nothing. If it had a 64mm objective would it be worth more money to you? Springfield thought so with its low-end scope line and they ended-up selling a ton of scopes to people who knew nothing about optics.

And, of course, the benefit of more adjustments in a 30mm tube is useless if the scope doesn't track in the first place.

How do any of those 'features' make the scope worth more money than a scope that is not broken?
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's like going from a 1978 Yugo to a slightly used 2009 mini-cooper lol...</div></div>

I think it's more like going from a '92 Ford Taurus to a slightly used 2009 Mini. But, yeah... It's an upgrade.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Features are only beneficial if the scope isn't broken... </div></div>

I agree. But at what level of accuracy in the adjustments would you consider the scope to be not broken? And what would you expect to spend on this level of accuracy?
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, I plan on selling my CounterSniper. I just bought a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50mm FFP. </div></div>

If we all chip in and buy it, will you stop?
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Does the reticle have jump? </div></div>
I guess I'm not familiar with the term 'jump'.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Does it subtend correctly? </div></div>
I think so. But you're right, I did miss that and I'll try and test that later.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Because there's not a single use for FFP in that scope - never mind no utility to that reticle either. </div></div>
I think there is always a use for FFP reticles. The first is that you don't need to worry about zoom when ranging or doing hold overs. Of course, ranging and hold overs only work with a properly subtended reticle. Second, is that adjusting the zoom can't shift your zero, as in a second focal plane reticle. I'm pretty sure of this, but I can't find a source on it right now. But it makes sense because the reticle, focus, and parallax is before the zoom lenses.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What does a 50mm objective do? </div></div>
A bigger lens will have more incident light and provide a brighter picture.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And, of course, the benefit of more adjustments in a 30mm tube is useless if the scope doesn't track in the first place. </div></div>
I disagree. As long as your adjustments are accurate down to an MOA or so you can still walk your shots onto a target.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How do any of those 'features' make the scope worth more money than a scope that is not broken? </div></div>
Please provide some objective measure for a scope being not broken. Every piece of equipment has error in it. It's just a question of how much.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Armednsafe, you have been getting pounded since the first post. The ko is eminent, but I must say I am impressed your still swinging. I am going to pass on the counter sniper though.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me get this straight... I do an objective review of the scope after I've owned it for almost a year, I provide evidence of it's performance, I don't give a glowing review but more of a mediocre one, therefore I "fell victim to colorful marketing or big words"? Can you provide some evidence for the truth of this statement? Or does your religion prevent you from accepting any positive evidence about this brand of optic? </div></div>

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Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

They've been swinging, but I don't feel like much has landed. It's been mostly preconceived notions, subjective value judgements, and attacks on my character.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I've seen that video from CS tactical. And the sample that Mike got was pretty bad according to him. And I believe him. So, I posted my review as a video response to his. He thought it was a decent quality and objective review.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Armed....if it works for you....more power.

That being said, 8/10....not sure if this is some hexidecimal or perhaps we are all just drinking the kool-aid.

Take it to RO, to NorCal, Phx, any Benning, etc. If run hard I dare say it will not come out the other side.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I would love to test it under those circumstance. But I can't afford it. If I ship it to you, will you test it out there?

As far as the rating goes, note where I put 0. I wanted to choose a non-arbitrary place for 0 in each category. And the only non-arbitrary 0 I could think of was a pretty damn low standard.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's like going from a 1978 Yugo to a slightly used 2009 mini-cooper lol...</div></div>

I think it's more like going from a '92 Ford Taurus to a slightly used 2009 Mini. But, yeah... It's an upgrade.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Features are only beneficial if the scope isn't broken... </div></div>

I agree. But at what level of accuracy in the adjustments would you consider the scope to be not broken? And what would you expect to spend on this level of accuracy? </div></div>


As with most things out there, there is a non-linear relationship between price and performance (the law of diminishing returns). I understand this and fully appreciate it as an engineer. A $300 CS and a $3000 SB, both have glass, both have a reticle (even sometime a reticle in the reticle), Turrets, etc and for the VAST number of people out there who shoot the CS will "do the job". On that metric there are a "statistical dead heat"

Here is an alternative perspective.

Many of the shooters on this site will send more rounds down range on a Competition weekend than most shooters will send in a year. Is Sub MOA your metric or is MOPP (munite of pie plate). Add to all this the blatant marketing that is straight out of a Gecko45 post is insulting to those that actually use/abuse/push their equipment. Please show me one place at the "sharp end of the spear" where they have any swing?
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

The blatant race to 100 posts to sell something on here that is known crap is ban worthy. If your next 40 posts are about this scope, I doubt you make it past 99.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I get that their advertising is absurd. And I'm not comparing the scope to the $2k-3k scopes out there and saying it's just as good or even in the same league. I'm just comparing it to it's price point. And I've found it's in there with the competition. But I guess there's a lot of people that get really emotional about this scope just because of some stupid advertising.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

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Do this......and see if she comes out the other side....
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I disagree. As long as your adjustments are accurate down to an MOA or so you can still walk your shots onto a target.
</div></div>

so tracking doesnt matter as long as you can eventually get there.........got it
confused.gif
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do this......and see if she comes out the other side.... </div></div>

I would be amazed if it didn't completely brake from being thrown like that. I would be absolutely astounded if it kept a zero after that. But a USO is at least 5 times the price of a CounterSniper. So, they really should not be compared.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> this is were an 8/10 causes some head scratching. The RFP is 30+ pages for the scope. </div></div>

Do you really get the impression that I think the CounterSniper scopes compare at all to a Schmidt & Bender? If so, how did you get that impression?
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Tracking does matter. It's a question of how much accuracy and precision you need and expect. If you want to make first round hits out to 1500 yards or a mile, don't buy a CounterSniper. Don't buy anything less than a Nightforce for that matter. If you don't mind making adjustments after your first shot and don't want to spend $2500, or $1000 even, then a CounterSniper MIGHT be the right choice.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

That scope is about twice the price of a CounterSniper. It sure as hell should do better in the box test.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I think everyone is coming at me as if I think this scope is as good at the manufacturer claims it is. This is not the case. And if you read my previous posts or watched my video and are capable of understanding basic English, you would know that I don't think this scope is competition for the premium scopes out there.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

This is just a test, "armed" ...

Black.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Armednsafe i under stand by the data says light transmission is good. But there are lot of thing this scopes do poor( marketing lies) and as far as testing goes scope and guns are like cars. You might think your 1993 jetta with a intake is fast......... Intill you get to drive a 2012 vette. Most guys on here rate a good or entry level scope as leupold vx3, and in no way will a CSS be on the same level.

All this means good is relative term to each person
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tracking does matter. It's a question of how much accuracy and precision you need and expect. If you want to make first round hits out to 1500 yards or a mile, don't buy a CounterSniper. Don't buy anything less than a Nightforce for that matter. If you don't mind making adjustments after your first shot and don't want to spend $2500, or $1000 even, then a CounterSniper MIGHT be the right choice. </div></div>

"if hitting your target isnt your things counter snapper is for you!"
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tracking does matter. It's a question of how much accuracy and precision you need and expect. If you want to make first round hits out to 1500 yards or a mile, don't buy a CounterSniper. Don't buy anything less than a Nightforce for that matter. If you don't mind making adjustments after your first shot and don't want to spend $2500, or $1000 even, then a CounterSniper MIGHT be the right choice. </div></div>

I see you logic and point, which is basically correct. Also I appreciate your effort doing a test video about scope- Im too lazy (and dumb) for it.
But. You are in a wrong forum.

Imagine writing test report about 1986 model Honda GTI w/ alloy tires + rally stripes to Nascar forum where drivers, engineers and other racing related experts discuss about various features and technology.
Sure, you can take your Honda to Laguna Sega, drive there, test it and whoop Toyota Corolla driver asses while doing it, but it still sounds, well...very kinly said, silly.
I think its safe to say thats how your comments looks to most of us.

Enjoy your scope, good that you are happy with it. But please- for your own sake- accept the truth that Honda salesman lied to you. Its not a racing car- not even a street legal sportscar.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

After I sell my CounterSniper, I'll run that scope through the same tests and see how it does. I've heard SuperSnipers are good scopes for the money. But I'm not going to just compare adjustment precision, there is more to a scope than that. But, if it has better glass, more adjustment range, and better fit and finish to boot, then I will certainly consider it a better scope. (plus the retail price is lower)
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I never tried to compare a '93 Jetta to a Corvette. I'm trying to compare equally priced products.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

If I am in the wrong forum, then the people here must not be interested in the truth. It doesn't matter whether this scope performs like an S&B or USO, or shits out like an NC Star. What matters is how the scope performs in reality, right?

I may have been lied to by the CounterSniper advertising, but that doesn't mean that I believed it. And no, I don't think it's 'good enough' for what I want to do. Neither do I think it's a 'race car' of scopes.
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

Fuckin' A... Why do people assume that I think this is an amazingly high quality scope? All I did was say that it's a scope of standard quality in its price range. Then I get all these dumb asses comparing it to S&B and USOs... That takes some Down's syndrome or something.

***edit*** I apologize for this post if it was offensive. I was pretty drunk last night when I got home. ***edit***
 
Re: SEALs Scope... I know!!!

I wrote "you are in wrong forum", but I should have said "your scope is in wrong forum".
Just want to clarify this. Nothing wrong with testing things and kindly sharing it, vice versa.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuckin' A... Why do people assume that I think this is an amazingly high quality scope? Then I get all these dumb asses comparing it to S&B and USOs... That takes some Down's syndrome or something. </div></div>
I am not assuming anything. And why to compare, they can not be compared. Just like racing cars can not be compared to chinese daily drivers.

99% of forum members know that scope is useless from professional/serious usage point of view. And its is not only that, CS marketing lies about mil /SEAL/SF/Rambo contracts makes it more or less personal offend.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armednsafe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never tried to compare a '93 Jetta to a Corvette. I'm trying to compare equally priced products. </div></div>
Re-read my post. I did not say YOU are comparing it. I tried to politely explain how test looks like to regular writers here.

If you still have difficulties to understand somewhat virulent athmosphere in this thread- perhaps I am not only one who should have hes head examined.
wink.gif


I suggest you to also re-check motto text in this forums main page headliner:
<span style="font-style: italic">Sniper's Hide: For the Serious Tactical Marksman</span>


Well, either way, I'm done.
 
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