I still see Sig Sauer KILO6K HD 8x32mm Compact Ballistic Rangefinding Binocular SOK6K804 is the SKU catalog. Wonder if this is replacing the 3K?
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- Thread starter northshorelumber
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Have they changed the glass at all, or is it the same and the BDX3000?
It’s supposedly significantly improved from the discussions I’ve had. I have an order in so we will see.
Other than the ability to change the display, I don't see a reason to upgrade from the BDX3000. Trees remain the same at 4000 yards. You get another 1000 for deer to 3000 yards which really doesn't matter since either distance is too far, IMO, to take a shot at a deer, and reflective effectively doubles. I've yet to need to range a 'target' more than 1500 yards. And most are well within that range. If I didn't already have the 3000, I'd probably opt for the 3000 due to the sale prices sure to come. Although it is fun see how far you can range. I've got my 3000 out to almost 5000 yards on a very reflective target. It was very repeatable too. But that is rare, I can usually only range to about 2000 yards w/o reflective surfaces.
This might be a good reason to upgrade. Although the glass currently is still good enough. Not Leica or Swaro, but very good.
For me I just want nicer glass. I also, if true having AB Elite with the custom curve would be really nice. That'd let me drop my Kestrel Elite and just run a bino to range, dope in 1 click.
If the glass is the same then I probably wouldn't pay for that extra cost.
I can get 2000 on trees and rocks with my RX2800 regularly
Guy in the vid says trees at 4000-5000 and that’s what I need right now as I’ve outgrown my RX2800
No clue
I actually hope they make a stand alone version of the LRF without all the extras.
Living in Western WA. I would love the basemap way point feature.
some more info - from what I heard these are still 905nm lasers, not the 1500nm version like in some of the other longer distance ranging products.
It's AB Elite, not ABU, which was restricted to 800.
I grabbed the data from the FCC:
The beam divergence is pretty spectacular, which is probably how they are able to pull off that distance.
I agree. On the very same site:
I just got off the phone with them, it's an error on the website. The sell sheet is accurate, it's ABE, not ABU. CS is going to have the web guys update the site.
I was told closer to end of Oct. for the 10Ks to ship, FWIW.
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What's the pros/cons of 905nm vs 1050nm lasers?
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I like the look of these. Looks like I may be adding range finding binoculars to guns, cameras, motorcycle helmets and manbags to the list of things I end up with more of than I strictly need.
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I like the look of these. Looks like I may be adding range finding binoculars to guns, cameras, motorcycle helmets and manbags to the list of things I end up with more of than I strictly need.
Just wondering if you asked if the glass will be upgraded? That really the only thing holding me back going with these. I'm using the older model Swaro EL's and Kilo 2400 and would like to sell both and just go with the 10K's.
$1750 street would be phenomenal if these things perform as claimed. I don't really need ABS on board, I've got a Kestrel, but this is a very compelling value proposition. Much rather deal with Sig than Vectronix, too...
pro's of the 905nm laser is they are inexpensive. cons are they often perform sub optimally for the type of stuff we do - they have difficulty ranging far targets consistently when the target is not reflective and small - and during bright light (like competition shooting in the Western US).
pro's of the 1500nm lasers (1550/1535) are they are in a class that allows more wattage output hence they can range much farther, and almost always return a more consistent reading at longer distances than a 905nm class laser. Since we almost always care more about the long distance targets being correct (or getting a reading) this is pretty important to long range shooters. As another pro? 1550 is not in the spectrum visible to conventional night vision.
con's of the 1500 are the expense - the laser module is almost as expensive as some of the 905nm products
I am not a laser engineer Nick Vitalbo is, and I have just listened to him talk about these for a while - so I could be wrong and he would be the expert - and I suspect he had a hand in the development of a lot of the products we currently use...
It is not just the laser. The receiver is also expensive because you can not use a silicon sensor. A sensor that is sensitive to 1550nm radiation is usually made of a material that also need some sort of a temperature stabilizer or very sophisticated calibration.
I sorta work with these things, but on a substantially higher end. I need to take a closer look at what ~1550nm LRF modules are used for inexpensive commercial products.
ILya
Exactly!
And I don’t see me outgrowing it’s capability any time soon
Maybe we can get Nick or someone to re-do the comparison test on Laser Rangefinders that he did in Modern Advancements in Long Range shooting?
Things have changed significantly in the marketplace since it was released years ago.
It provided a methodology to compare Laser Rangefinders across the board in a more apples to apples approach rather than just looking at the manufacturers specifications (like beam divergence etc).
I believe 1550 nm is civ legal because that wavelength cannot penetrate our eye (retina?) so they can greatly increase the wattage of the laser without doing damage. 850-940 nm is restricted to some like 0.7mw because that will penetrate our eye.
I've commented on that multiple times in this thread and others. Yes, the glass is upgraded. I just haven't looked through it myself, so can't tell you how nice it is.
Invisibility to NV is not a pro for civilian use. That's how you use RFs at night, or at least how I've used them. I won't get into technical arguments about the pros/cons of the different wavelengths, but I would expect this to handle ranging at the distances you'd expect to shoot in any conditions you'd realistically encounter. Ranging a rabbit at 4000yds will probably be a little rough, but you'll need more than 10x to do that, anyways. Deer-sized game at 3000y should be easy enough (according to specs - we'll see in real-world), even in bright sun, and steel plates even easier. Even if the specs are over-stated, and it's only capable of deer at 2k... I don't suspect that's a hue issue. If you're taking game beyond that, I'd sure love to see video!
In my experience rangefinders rated for 3000 yards, even ones with 3000 in the name rarely actually return a result at 3000 yards. During the night time they seem to have an easier time likely due to less noise. Moving to the 1535nm laser rangefinder doesn't seem to have this issue. When I lase something at 2100 yards, I get a range back. However the Leica Geovids or Sig Kilo's don't give a reliable range even at 1500 when they are rated for 3000 yards. This is why I think its a benefit to go with a higher wattage laser with a better receiver.
However we have yet to see the new products, and it may be that they do something none of the other 905nm lasers have yet to achieve, in which case, I will be happy since a lot of people can get a better laser rangefinder for less money that adequately solves the problems we have as long range shooters.
Fred, what are these 1535nm civilian LRF you are speaking about?
This rangefinder is rated for 10,000 yards. Go look at the beam divergence specifications. You've got more power focused in a smaller area. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat when it comes to emitted power. It's the same reason a high Q antenna can be much smaller (STL) yet have the same gain as something much larger. Everything is a tradeoff.
Yes, it’s literally on the website for the RF.
I always take the rated distance and half it for real world use.
I consider the good value/performance LRF’s the ones that have real world performance that beats that 50% threshold.
Steiner M830r LRF 1535nm Laser Rangefinder Binoculars with Reticle
Buy the Steiner M830r LRF 1535nm, one of the most powerful laser rangefinding binoculars available to civilians. Integrated with Kestrel 5700 Ballistics
www.bisontactical.com Angle and DOF are very useful for the rangefinders IMO. I will be happy to have something inexpensive that reliably ranges 10,000 yards, that will be great! Even if the glass isn't great, it would still be a really great deal if it works!
That’s an interesting looking unit but a bit beyond my ELR poors budgetSteiner M830r LRF 1535nm Laser Rangefinder Binoculars with Reticle
Buy the Steiner M830r LRF 1535nm, one of the most powerful laser rangefinding binoculars available to civilians. Integrated with Kestrel 5700 Ballistics
Yea
I could care less about the glass, as long as it’s good enough I’d be happy, I just need consistent 4000ish yard ranging on rocks, trees and targets.
I could also care less about water towers and buildings at 10K
When you say that you’ve listened to him talk, did you mean on a podcast or video series somewhere that you could share?
Your posts and others in here have been really informative (and fascinating!) and exactly the kind of content that I keep coming back here for.
They could implement something where you can do a button to increment wind in a configurable increment amount, and a button to change direction in a top level menu and achieve close to the same. I haven’t found the actual updated manual yet so we will see when that gets released. I did confirm with Sig the weatherflow wind meter that comes with the binoculars will connect directly to them and wind readings can come from it, so that should be a pretty good solution at least for wind at shooter position.
Well, he wrote the section on LRF's in the Modern Advancements in Long Range shooting book (I think vol 2 or 3).
He has also been on a lot of the Precision Rifle Media podcasts (not sure if I introduced him to Kirk or they found each other)...
Precision Rifle Media podcast Nick Vitalbo at DuckDuckGo
DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.
I ran into him at some point and I guess you could say we became friends
, I try to hang out with him when I am at SHOT, and stopped by to visit when I was back east (he was working on the Raptar at the time). So occasionally he takes my calls when I want to chat about lasers .However I know enough to realize I am a total amateur when it comes to Lasers, I like to use them and think about them, but the science behind them is way out of my experience area, but engineers who work with these are really the guys who know but they are typically really busy and don't comment here that often - and I am sure they don't want to get sucked into online forum arguments
.It’s just not the right forum for that level of discussion. There is so much that goes into RF performance, far more than just the wavelength in use. I probably wouldn’t even have those discussions in a place like eevblog. You can accomplish the same goals in many different ways. If I get half the stated range out of these it’s more than I need, and I’ll be quite happy. They are specified for deer at 3k, trees at 4K, and reflective at 10k. These are all a good bit more than I really need. I can’t imagine taking a shot at game at 3k…
Wonder if they've got some doohickey to hold the wind meter on top of the bonus to grab a current reading?
I'll probably just have to hold it....
I had a weatherflow wind meter before I got the kestrel, and it was OK, just limited in capability.
I'll probably just have to hold it....
I had a weatherflow wind meter before I got the kestrel, and it was OK, just limited in capability.
Yeah, all the environmental sensors are in the binoculars so you’re just using it to get a wind velocity reading. I hope there’s a way to do manual entry on the RF without the application, as I prefer to gauge wind downrange not at my ears, but it’s a minor complaint.
Supports manual wind speed and direction. That’s awesome. Same on temperature.
So honest question, what separates the Vector to binos like these (outside of the laser size and ballistic solver)?
The Vector 1500 has a 905mn laser (like the 10 and 05) but hits targets even in the roughest laser conditions (bright sun, snowy blizzard, tiny objects in a snow blizzard). It seems like the latest and greatest consumer lasers still have to play catch up. Thoughts?
The Vector 1500 has a 905mn laser (like the 10 and 05) but hits targets even in the roughest laser conditions (bright sun, snowy blizzard, tiny objects in a snow blizzard). It seems like the latest and greatest consumer lasers still have to play catch up. Thoughts?
It’s already been covered, just because it’s a 905nm laser does not mean the performance won’t be good. Also the Vector IV is a 1550nm laser, afaik. Define your needs, and find a product that fits. Ranging game to 3k is fine performance for me, and the price is right.
Wish they would come out with a 6k model. But at $1,800 to $1,900 not to bad. I have the 3000 model work good just glass isn't as great hopefully the 10k has better glass. I like the idea of having everything in one unit ballistic app wind ect. Very tempting
Want the binos I like having 1 unit
