"Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

Grump

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I'm looking to get some info all together in one place on 155-gr HPBT loads, starting of course with the "old" Sierra 155.

Also interested in any successful loads from those of us on the 'Hide.

FWIW, I tried some Lapua 155s over TAC and the OCW over five charges resulted in NOT One Charge Works. 2-3 MOA out of an M1A (3 shots!), with 5-shot test loads of 41.5 4895 under Nosler 168s giving about 1 MOA and 2600 fps...

Thanks!
 

MitchAlsup

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Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

A std PALMA load is::

Powder+Case Varget 47.8 gr Win (47.4-5 gr Lapua)
Primer <pick one>
Bullet 155 {Scenar, SMK, Berger}
OAL :: 0.015 from the lands
fps: 2950 from 24" up to 3050 from 32" barrel

Caution: This load is right on the edge of sane pressures, be very careful working up the load from at least 7% down, watching pressure signs on the way up. Gun must be in excellent condition.
 

Falar

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Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stewart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be careful, that load will destroy an M1A. </div></div>

I don't have experience with an M1A, but I do load for gas guns.

Published max from Hodgdon is 47gr Varget with Winchester brass and 155gr bullets. I tried to get there with a gas gun (AR10) and 46.5gr looks like this:

n5g9s9.jpg


I pulled that primer myself to look at it, it didn't come loose on its own.

I wouldn't go over 47gr with a gas gun. I added a CWS to my rifle and still only feel safe at 46gr, that gets me 2750fps from a 21" tube. 155gr Scenar new winchester brass, BR2 primers.
 

Bronco

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Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

LC Brass
Br-2 primer
45.1 gr. RL-15
155 SMK, (2155) old palma @ 2850
Sub moa out of a 24" LR-308
 

milanuk

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Lapua brass:

    46.5+gr Varget, CCI BR2, S155MK (old) or Nosler CC seated ~0.020" off hard jam - 2930fps from Savage factory 26" 10FL-LE2 barrel

    46.5gr Varget, Rem 9-1/2 or Fed 210M, B155VLD seated 0.010" past hard jam - 2960fps from Savage factory 30" 12 F/TR barrel

    46.8gr Varget, same as above (different barrel)

    46.8gr Varget, 210M, B155.5BT seated ~0.045" off hard jam - 2960fps from Savage factory 30" 12 F/TR barrel

    Winchester commercial brass:

    47.5gr Varget, BR2, S155MK (old) or Nosler CC seated ~0.020" off hard jam - 2940fps from Savage factory 26" 10FP-LE2 barrel

    47.3gr N150, 210M, B155.5BT seated ~0.045" off hard jam - 2990fs from Savage factory 30" 12 F/TR barrel

    Winchester 'PALMA' brass:

    45.2gr Varget, BR2, Nosler 155 CC seated 0.020" off hard jam (2.790" OAL), 2930fps from 31" Broughton 5C barrel

    Thats all I can recall off the top of my head (I'm terrible at keeping proper load notes).

    A couple people I shoot with regularly are using Winchester (commercial) brass, Berger 155VLDs or 155.5BTs, ~47.5-47.8gr Varget, 210Ms, and getting ~3050fps + from Savage factory 30" 12 F/TR or 12 Palma barrels.

    HTH,

    Monte
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stewart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be careful, that load will destroy an M1A. </div></div>

    I don't have experience with an M1A, but I do load for gas guns.

    Published max from Hodgdon is 47gr Varget with Winchester brass and 155gr bullets. I tried to get there with a gas gun (AR10) and 46.5gr looks like this:

    n5g9s9.jpg


    [snip]</div></div>

    Wow. I've never seen ejector marks like that without there also being almost no radius left on the primers.

    How many thousandths do you bump the shoulder back when resizing? Or were those Winchesters neck-sized? OR....was that the first firing? I ask because I had a long chamber in the last barrel, and safe loads of 43.0 WW748 and 168 SMKs had pretty flat primers--mainly because the sized rounds were .010 back from the chamber. Those cases broke after three reloadings. My clue came when I was doing some light loads and I found primers backed out but not smashed back flat.

    Question--can Quickload calculate pressure with the bullet at "X" inches down the bore? I know what values to look for, and am wondering if that program would be worth looking into for this M1A exercise.

    I'm also still suspicious that some of these bolt gun loads are going up above 60K pressure...

    Thanks!
     

    Falar

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    That was virgin Winchester brass.

    Another thing about an M1A/AR-10 etc is that technically 7.62x51mm NATO has a lower chamber pressure than .308, so even "near max" loads approaching 60k PSI are overpressure for a military style gas gun.

    http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

    It says there that .308 max is 62k vs 50k for 7.62 NATO. The gas system in M14s and ARs would certainly have been designed to operate within the NATO pressures.
     

    milanuk

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Question--can Quickload calculate pressure with the bullet at "X" inches down the bore? I know what values to look for, and am wondering if that program would be worth looking into for this M1A exercise.
    </div></div>

    Yes, it can. Tell me what the standard distance for the gas port on your gas gun and I can tell you about what your port pressure should be based on a given set of load parameters. Like everything else w/ QuickLoad, it's an approximation based off a series of assumptions - individual bore quality, primer heat, you name it can fudge things one way or another.



    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I'm also still suspicious that some of these bolt gun loads are going up above 60K pressure...
    </div></div>

    Possibly...
    wink.gif
    As long as the primer stays put in warm weather, I don't care.
     

    Jedi

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Dont shoot palma but 155's scenar

    Lapua brass OAL 2.820 IMR4895 45.6

    win brass OAL 2.820 IMR4895 46.6

    Win brass OAL 2.870 IMR4895 47.6

    Win Brass OAL 2.920 H4895 47.6

    Win brass OAL 2.920 Vargay 47.8

    All good 1k loads
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Some years ago, when the Palma ammo was handloads provided by the match organizers, the 'standard Palma load' was published as being 46.0gr of Varget.

    Personally, I would treat that load as a max.

    Greg
     

    milanuk

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Varget has changed a bit in burn rate (slower) since then too, Greg.
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It says there that .308 max is 62k vs 50k for 7.62 NATO. The gas system in M14s and ARs would certainly have been designed to operate within the NATO pressures.</div></div>

    True, but WHICH pressure?

    Chamber peak pressure is not the parameter important for M1As and FAL-types, and for the G3, it's more a matter of residual chamber pressure at X.XX milliseconds after ignition (or however they designed that goofy brass-buster of a rifle after the Spanish CETME experience...).

    I'm out of town and can't measure the distance down the bore to the port...
     

    Downzero

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Question--can Quickload calculate pressure with the bullet at "X" inches down the bore? I know what values to look for, and am wondering if that program would be worth looking into for this M1A exercise.
    </div></div>

    You really shouldn't be concerned about something like this. The M14 was designed for a 147 grain bullet at about 2600 FPS with a particular burn rate of power.

    The further you deviate from that, in bullet weight or velocity, the greater your chance will be of damaging your rifle.

    If you want to hot rod a rifle, get an AR or a bolt gun. Hot rodding the M14 or M1 will result in damage to the rifle and/or your face.
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Question--can Quickload calculate pressure with the bullet at "X" inches down the bore? I know what values to look for, and am wondering if that program would be worth looking into for this M1A exercise.
    </div></div>

    You really shouldn't be concerned about something like this. The M14 was designed for a 147 grain bullet at about 2600 FPS with a particular burn rate of power.

    The further you deviate from that, in bullet weight or velocity, the greater your chance will be of damaging your rifle.

    If you want to hot rod a rifle, get an AR or a bolt gun. Hot rodding the M14 or M1 will result in damage to the rifle and/or your face. </div></div>

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever SEEN any testing results showing port pressure?

    NRA did some back in the 1980s and you can find the results if you care to educate yourself. Interestingly enough, the highest port pressures (near the max of the tolerances) were with Sierra 150-gr Matchkings, and the lower port pressures using the same powders were with 168-gr and either 173- or 180-gr bullets.

    Chamber pressures were NATO-safe for all loads.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    I already have some data points on this and am NOT planning on hot-rodding loads in the M1A. One powder seemed to max out both chamber pressure and port pressure (based on ejection pattern about = op rod speed = usually correlates with port pressure) at a whopping 2760 fps with 155s. I broke down the test loads above that.
     

    mavrick10_2000

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Rem 700 SPS_V 26" Stock Barrel
    CDI Bottom Metal - AI Mags

    155 Hornady AMAX
    Win Case
    Wolf LR Primer
    46.2 gr Varget
    Seated to mag length

    155 Nosler CC
    Win Case
    Wolf LR Primer
    45.6gr Varget
    Seated to Mag length
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    The original Palma was fired using issue NATO ammo, which came with varying weight bullets from various counties, weights from 147-155gr. When handloads or purpose-loaded common ammo was allowed, loaders used 155gr bullets to get what was perceived to be the most advantage. Then Sierra brought out the 155 Palma SMK and that became the gold standard.

    That point about Varget burn rate migration makes sense to me, too.

    Greg
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Well, I'm off to some OCW testing at 1/2-gr increments from 43.0 to 46.5 Varget, LC Match brass, WLR primers, and 155 SMKs at 2.81 OAL.

    We'll see if the primers flatten before velocities get reasonable. These cases are sized a bit short (min headspace per the Wilson gage).
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Oh, I started with 43.5 Varget and the SMKs, not 43.0. MUCH better than the Lapua 155s and...whatever powder it was. Might be a jump thing, might be just not that powder.

    46.0 ran 2825 fps. Will try 46.5 and 47.0, watching carefully. Not sure I can get 47.0 in those cases--46.0 is 1/3 up the neck already.
     

    Criver600

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    If you just want blasting ammo LC is ok, its a waste of time for a Palma competition. Winchester is hard to beat.
     

    Downzero

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Question--can Quickload calculate pressure with the bullet at "X" inches down the bore? I know what values to look for, and am wondering if that program would be worth looking into for this M1A exercise.
    </div></div>

    You really shouldn't be concerned about something like this. The M14 was designed for a 147 grain bullet at about 2600 FPS with a particular burn rate of power.

    The further you deviate from that, in bullet weight or velocity, the greater your chance will be of damaging your rifle.

    If you want to hot rod a rifle, get an AR or a bolt gun. Hot rodding the M14 or M1 will result in damage to the rifle and/or your face. </div></div>

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever SEEN any testing results showing port pressure?

    NRA did some back in the 1980s and you can find the results if you care to educate yourself. Interestingly enough, the highest port pressures (near the max of the tolerances) were with Sierra 150-gr Matchkings, and the lower port pressures using the same powders were with 168-gr and either 173- or 180-gr bullets.

    Chamber pressures were NATO-safe for all loads.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    I already have some data points on this and am NOT planning on hot-rodding loads in the M1A. One powder seemed to max out both chamber pressure and port pressure (based on ejection pattern about = op rod speed = usually correlates with port pressure) at a whopping 2760 fps with 155s. I broke down the test loads above that. </div></div>

    I shoot 168s and 175s in my own rifle, so obviously it is not the bullet weight to which I refer.

    It is the combination of slow powders and maximum loads that will destroy one of those rifles in short order.

    The military shot 173 grain bullets in M1s; It's obviously not the bullet weight that concerned them. It's not even the pressure--plenty of safe loads do not exceed NATO pressures and will still be very hard on the gun.

    The M1A is just like the M1. Stick to powders that are similar to what the military loaded for it and load to modest pressures or you're asking for trouble.
     

    7mmRM

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    308WIN
    Lapua Brass
    155 SMK .010 jump
    46.5 Varget
    Fed210M
    2923FPS AVG

    308WIN
    Win Brass
    155 SMK .010 jump
    47 Varget
    Fed210M
    2912FPS AVG
     

    Grump

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    Re: "Standard" or proven 155-gr Palma loads?

    Well, I didn't get velocities but I have a second OCW accuracy node with Varget and SMKs.

    Using FA63 MATCH brass, water capacity about 54.8 or a little more grains, WLR primers, and 155s loaded to...forgot to measure, but the last ones were at 2.82, and the cases NOT sized to minimum headspace, the loads were:

    45.5 Varget--primers nice, group okay.

    46.0 Varget--primers nice, group good.

    46.5 Varget--primers still nice, group good, same impact as 46.0.

    Because of how ugly-flat the primers were on the last loads, I hesitated to load any at 47.0. Hate to break down loads...

    Note to self--short cases in a long chamber give false high pressure signs on the primers.