Stop The Bleed

Alphatreedog

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    I did a Stop The Bleed training yesterday mainly for the certification to protect me under Good Samaritan Law . A disclaimer , I am not a trainer and the information in this post is strictly to spark interest in training and for conversation only .
    All of us here are involved in shooting , drive vehicles , some hunt and some hike . The number one killer in a trauma event is blood loss . The sad part is that in the vast majority of cases it is preventable . There is an initiative for free training called Stop The Bleed that covers some rudimentary concepts of mitigating blood loss due to trauma . stopthebleedingcoalition.org .
    Or google Stop The Bleed .
    I posted a link at the top to another training that goes more in depth into torniquet application . They also have a vid S-12 Tactical Wound Packing
    that is in depth . The reason I posted the vid and referenced the pack8ng vid is that the Stop the Bleed just touches . Points I thought should have had a finer point put on them were ;
    Put on a torniquet first if it looks like a lot of blood . Wrap , pack and deal with the wound and then if not arterial or massive it can be taken off by first respoders .
    Proper wound packing . Just pushing gauze in a wound does not give enough pressure to stop a bleed . The wound packing vid shows proper
    Pressure , placement , volume and wrapping to pack and secure .

    TIME . Our bodies have 5 liters of blood flowing thru them . Ours hearts pump at 5 liters per minute . On an arterial bleed one has 30 seconds to apply a tourniquet . Practice , practice and practice . Even if you survive you may later die of complications associated with severe blood loss and blood pressure loss .
    Get the proper gear and have it handy . Two minutes digging in your trunk or behind your pick up seat is too long . Also redundancy . Yeah the torniquets and celox are expensive but what cost would you place on a loved one's life .
    Again posted for conversation and inspiration . I humbly ask the Mods ( Uncle Tucker ) not to move this as may save a life . Lastly please practice and maybe even host a training at your club/range . Stay safe .
     

    powdahound76

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    Excellent post.

    $25 for a tourniquet and $45 for QuickClot is a drop in the hat compared to what any of us spend on shooting.

    Also, if the bleed is not arterial (squirting or the blood pooling like your pouring out of a glass), packing is good. Including a tshirt or cloth shop rag if you dont have basic gauze or the lanolin impregnated gauze.

    There is a sticky on IFAKs in the Equipment sub-section that goes over stuff to buy. It was moved over from Scout.

    I teach this class regularly and would be happy to do a class for anyone in the Denver area. So easy to learn how to save a life.
     

    Mwalex

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    Excellent post.

    $25 for a tourniquet and $45 for QuickClot is a drop in the hat compared to what any of us spend on shooting.

    Also, if the bleed is not arterial (squirting or the blood pooling like your pouring out of a glass), packing is good. Including a tshirt or cloth shop rag if you dont have basic gauze or the lanolin impregnated gauze.

    There is a sticky on IFAKs in the Equipment sub-section that goes over stuff to buy. It was moved over from Scout.

    I teach this class regularly and would be happy to do a class for anyone in the Denver area. So easy to learn how to save a life.

    I have some basic first aid training and carry a kit that contains quickclot. I think the active in Quickclot is the same polymer as found in diapers (correct me if I am wrong). I asked my trainer about using Quickclot and he said something about it causing wound damage. Other than having to flush out the granules what is your opinion on causing potential wound damage? Thanks in advance.
     
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    Alphatreedog

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    I have some basic first aid training and carry a kit that contains quickclot. I think the active in Quickclot is the same polymer as found in diapers (correct me if I am wrong). I asked my trainer about using Quickclot and he said something about it causing wound damage. Other than having to flush out the granules what is your opinion on causing potential wound damage? Thanks in advance.
    That is or was the old Quick Clot granules . IIRC they had a make up that caused an exothermic reaction while clotting. The new product is z fold gauze . It does not cause the heat . As I understand it though it uses Kaolin which may not clot with someone on blood thiiners or suffering from coagulatrophy ( inability for platelets to coagulate due to hypothermia ) . Severe blood loss does , I repeat does cause hypothermia . Also Quick clot take a few minuts longer to clot than Celox rapid as I understand it . My opinion is lose the granules and get the z fold celox rapid . Also got to a free stop the bleed training and check out vids on how to properly pack a wound . If the pressure is not correct even with the gauze it may pull the packin and clot from the source and start the bleed again . Again practice . I dont care if its with dollar store gauze and a five below foam football . You wouldn't keep a pistol or rifle in a box or wrapping and then qhen your life or the life of a loved one was threatened pull it out and hope for the best . You would run some rounds and at least do some rudimentary range work . This is the real deal . There is a written in headstone time limit on proper treatment .I apologize if I'm gettig preachy . I am actually stoked that you're asking questions and showing interest . God speed Brother .
     

    Alphatreedog

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    I know there is an IFAK thread but for conversation I'll go over mine .
    North American Rescue CAT Torniquet . At least 2 . Some guys believe one per limb .
    Two Celox Rapid Z fold gauze .
    Three x three inch x 3.5 yd roll gauze for packing to hold Celox in place .
    Three x 4.5 inch x 4 yd Kerlix or Bandage Roll or or Roll Gauze to wrap and hold packing in place .
    This is strictly a Blow Out/Bleed Kit . Not a Boo Boo kit . Oh and a set of Penny Cutters/Trauma Shears . You don't even have to go all TACTIQUEER. with this . You can drop it in a gallon ziploc bag . I have removed the wrappers from the Torniquets and lost the boxes on the gauze .
     

    Mwalex

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    That is or was the old Quick Clot granules . IIRC they had a make up that caused an exothermic reaction while clotting. The new product is z fold gauze . It does not cause the heat . As I understand it though it uses Kaolin which may not clot with someone on blood thiiners or suffering from coagulatrophy ( inability for platelets to coagulate due to hypothermia ) . Severe blood loss does , I repeat does cause hypothermia . Also Quick clot take a few minuts longer to clot than Celox rapid as I understand it . My opinion is lose the granules and get the z fold celox rapid . Also got to a free stop the bleed training and check out vids on how to properly pack a wound . If the pressure is not correct even with the gauze it may pull the packin and clot from the source and start the bleed again . Again practice . I dont care if its with dollar store gauze and a five below foam football . You wouldn't keep a pistol or rifle in a box or wrapping and then qhen your life or the life of a loved one was threatened pull it out and hope for the best . You would run some rounds and at least do some rudimentary range work . This is the real deal . There is a written in headstone time limit on proper treatment .I apologize if I'm gettig preachy . I am actually stoked that you're asking questions and showing interest . God speed Brother .

    I will check into your suggestions and thanks so much for the information.
     

    powdahound76

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    The data I have is a few years old. They took all the commercial agents, pigs under anesthesia, then cut them nasty like with a knife.
    Then killed the pigs. Hope they made ham, sausage, and bacon.
    They tested the agents to see which was fastest and at that time QuickClot Z fold gauze won. Not by a huge margin and enough its what I started using, as well as my work which is a level 1 trauma center.
    Maybe new research has happened.
    I am no longer doing equipment procurement research or training the nurses and paramedics on this daily so not sure. Kept up with that stuff when i was.
    I would honestly say get either one you can.

    To practice packing, get some 4” Kerlix roll gauze. This is what we train with.
    I also carry this for if I have more than 1 wound or a less than lethal and still nasty wound.

    Granules are no bueno unless its all you have. Better than dying. Causes issues with tissues and effects healing. But you or they have a better chance of living......

    Also skinnymedic.com has been a good place to shop in the past.

    Love this conversation. Great stuff.
     

    Mwalex

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    Could we make a “field treatment” sticky of some kind? Just somewhere into like this could be collected?
     

    Maggot

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    I did a Stop The Bleed training yesterday mainly for the certification to protect me under Good Samaritan Law . A disclaimer , I am not a trainer and the information in this post is strictly to spark interest in training and for conversation only .
    All of us here are involved in shooting , drive vehicles , some hunt and some hike . The number one killer in a trauma event is blood loss . The sad part is that in the vast majority of cases it is preventable . There is an initiative for free training called Stop The Bleed that covers some rudimentary concepts of mitigating blood loss due to trauma . stopthebleedingcoalition.org .
    Or google Stop The Bleed .
    I posted a link at the top to another training that goes more in depth into torniquet application . They also have a vid S-12 Tactical Wound Packing
    that is in depth . The reason I posted the vid and referenced the pack8ng vid is that the Stop the Bleed just touches . Points I thought should have had a finer point put on them were ;
    Put on a torniquet first if it looks like a lot of blood . Wrap , pack and deal with the wound and then if not arterial or massive it can be taken off by first respoders .
    Proper wound packing . Just pushing gauze in a wound does not give enough pressure to stop a bleed . The wound packing vid shows proper
    Pressure , placement , volume and wrapping to pack and secure .

    TIME . Our bodies have 5 liters of blood flowing thru them . Ours hearts pump at 5 liters per minute . On an arterial bleed one has 30 seconds to apply a tourniquet . Practice , practice and practice . Even if you survive you may later die of complications associated with severe blood loss and blood pressure loss .
    Get the proper gear and have it handy . Two minutes digging in your trunk or behind your pick up seat is too long . Also redundancy . Yeah the torniquets and celox are expensive but what cost would you place on a loved one's life .
    Again posted for conversation and inspiration . I humbly ask the Mods ( Uncle Tucker ) not to move this as may save a life . Lastly please practice and maybe even host a training at your club/range . Stay safe .

    Amazing. Just yesterday I was thinking of running a thread like this asking about QuikClot. I know there is something better but couldnt remember.
     

    Northfl

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    I have a question for some of you medical types. Last week we had some guys at another plant get steam burnt. One pretty bad the other is home and doing well one still in the burn unit at shands gainesville. 2-3rd degree on upper body. I work in a high temp high pressure steam environment and we have had some incidents over the years where lines have blown, rupture disk blow, not very often as we have a really good safety record compared to industry standards and improving on that every day. Again this is not your tea kettle steam on the stove.
    What is the best thing to do in a bad steam burn from the professional stand point? Leave clothes on and get them in shower? Cold water warm water no shower clothes off clothes on. I would hate to know that something happened on my shift and i did something wrong and cost one of my buddies their life because of lack of knowledge and doing something wrong.
    I suppose we all get complacent with repetition and we get the required training by out own training dept and they are pretty good but its every couple of years
    I guess the incident last week is just bring it back into reality. I would appreciate any info as we are professionals in our field not the medical field
     

    Alphatreedog

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    Don't have mu h info on burn victims other than grab them by the armpits if nothing else available . Pits don't usually get burned and you will not cause further damage .
    Someone I believe mentioned airways . If you're not trained in nasapharaghyl airways don't mess with it , use the recovery position . Place trauma victim on their side . This is also recommended cor bellybutton to clavicle penetrating wounds .
    If a chests seal is done wrong it may cause either pneumo or Hema thoracicl pressure on the heart and lungs to the point of pulmonary or cardiac arrest . The blood doea not drain from the thoracic cavity causing pressure or when victim exhales with a puntunctured lung then air fills the thoracic cavity due to inability to escape because of chest seal . Yeah there are Hyfin self burbing chest seals but if not trained opens up liabilities . Most response times nowadays are at the worst twelve minutes unless you're remote . A good thing is to know your local response times .
     

    pmclaine

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  • Nov 6, 2011
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    Co worker recently had an incident where a psychopath started stabbing the shit out of him ambush style in the front seat of his car.

    He was just jumped and than stab, stab, stab.

    Luckily another department arrived and holed the psycho. As luck favors assholes sometimes he lived.

    While the other guy was taking care of psycho my coworker tried to use the SWAT-T we are issued.

    His hands were so covered with blood he couldn't open the plastic package.

    Luckily shooter took quick care of business and was able to apply a TQ.

    I tossed an extraneous piece of gear from the belt and made room for an Eleven10 hard case TQ holder with a real SOF-T wide TQ.

    I've been promoting same to all I see.
     
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    Northfl

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    Thanks alpha, our response times are pretty quick generally within 5 mins they will be on site and we have protocol in place to not call 911 ourselves because the plant is so big. We call the control room with the location and have someone meet the paramedics at our gate so we can take them them to the exact spot
     

    powdahound76

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    With burns the big thing is to keep them warm.

    Your work should get some basic soft blankets and heat tarps (I like the SOS brand ones) to help keep guys warm.
    Dont shower them. Dont remove clothes. Thats for guys like me! That happens with a ton of morphine at the burn center.

    As for airway, the recovery position is on the left side.

    I will take a ton of risk to save someone outside of the hospital. Thats my take and my life choice. I have dedicated my life to protecting my family and saving others lives, cant really stand by because there is some risk of things going sideways. Thats my thing. Not for everyone.
     

    powdahound76

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    And dont leave your TQ in the plastic! Carry where you can reach with both hands.
    Also trauma shears. Dirt cheap on Amazon. You have to see stuff, so cut clothes away.

    I will post a list of stuff i like too. Its on my work computer and it doesnt turn on during the weekend...... ?
     

    Alphatreedog

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    If you work in a dirty enviroment and reqlly need plastic on a torniquet to protect it put it in the cheapest ziploc baggy you can find . Very easy to rip open with your teeth . Also practice fold8ng correctly qnd indexing for rqpid deployment .
     

    pmclaine

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    And dont leave your TQ in the plastic! Carry where you can reach with both hands.
    Also trauma shears. Dirt cheap on Amazon. You have to see stuff, so cut clothes away.

    I will post a list of stuff i like too. Its on my work computer and it doesnt turn on during the weekend...... ?


    The SWAT-T we are issued is a rubber exercise band.

    7080627


    I think it would be okay to create a pressure dressing but it goes a bridge to far to consider it a TQ.

    Its design almost calls for it to stay in its manufacturers packaging to protect it from sun/filth as well to prevent having 6 feet of rubber band tailing you around.

    TQ I carry in the Eleven10 case is staged to deploy, no plastic or rubber bands. Anyone considering one also look at the tear away top cover to keep the TQ from being worn while being worn.

    7080628
     
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    Hobo Hilton

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    Ran across an article about Taylor Swift and the fact that she carries Quick Clot. Smart girl.

     

    pmclaine

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    Ran across an article about Taylor Swift and the fact that she carries Quick Clot. Smart girl.



    ....or perhaps explains why she goes through so many guys, you know, severe PMS due to blood loss.
     

    powdahound76

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    @pmclaine

    Good call on keeping it covered.
    And that issued rubber band is like tits on a boar for actual TQ use you are right.
    Your dept is opening themselves up for losing a guy....... between crap product and having to keep it in packaging.

    @Alphatreedog I didnt think if dirty work enviros like that. I would worry more about ruining the tourniquet than using dirty stuff on a trauma patient. We can clean em up and give some antibiotics here.....

    Well, time to go prove Darwin wrong for a day....... ??
     

    Maggot

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    I dont have time for all this right now. How do you save the thread or could it become a sticky?
     

    pmclaine

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    I dont have time for all this right now. How do you save the thread or could it become a sticky?


    The videos look good but they do exceed the 45 second attention span I generally allot for hide topics.

    I also will be watching when I can get time.
     
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    EchoDeltaSierra

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    I did a Stop The Bleed training yesterday mainly for the certification to protect me under Good Samaritan Law

    I’m so glad to see this post. My lady is a paramedic and certified TCCC and STB instructor. We’ve conducted three classes in the Minneapolis area in the past six months and have one of the local shooting clubs is coordinating quarterly classes as part of their offering.

    This is a very accessible class and something anyone would get value from. For those interested, you can find local registered classes here: https://cms.bleedingcontrol.org/class/search
     
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    Alphatreedog

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    @pmclaine

    Good call on keeping it covered.
    And that issued rubber band is like tits on a boar for actual TQ use you are right.
    Your dept is opening themselves up for losing a guy....... between crap product and having to keep it in packaging.

    @Alphatreedog I didnt think if dirty work enviros like that. I would worry more about ruining the tourniquet than using dirty stuff on a trauma patient. We can clean em up and give some antibiotics here.....

    Well, time to go prove Darwin wrong for a day....... ??
    Nah I didn't mean dirty application . Torniquets have velcro which is a man made shit magnet . I meant that if you have to carry on your kit exposed a cheap sandwich baggy will keep it clean until needed and is easy to acces as opposed to heavy plastic wrapping from the manufacturer .
     

    Maggot

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  • Jul 27, 2007
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    I’m so glad to see this post. My lady is a paramedic and certified TCCC and STB instructor. We’ve conducted three classes in the Minneapolis area in the past six months and have one of the local shooting clubs is coordinating quarterly classes as part of their offering.

    This is a very accessible class and something anyone would get value from. For those interested, you can find local registered classes here: https://cms.bleedingcontrol.org/class/search

    thanks, weve got several coming up soon near me, and free, it appears. Im in.
     
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    Doc68

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    Yes you are right about the clotting factor in someone who has lost a lot if blood and is in shock or on blood thinners. We now give Tranexamic Acid (TXA) to aid in clotting. It has had a huge impact on saving patients lives in Iraq and afghanistan.

    I have been a combat medic in the army now for 13 years with a few deployments.

    We have gone away from the granulated form of QUIK clot since 2010. The kaolin impregnated qauze works wonders. I've used it on both live tissue labs and actual patients down range.
     
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