The Sons of Liberty

[Switchblade]

In Boston in early summer of 1765 a group of shopkeepers and artisans who called themselves The Loyal Nine, began preparing for agitation against the Stamp Act. As that group grew, it came to be known as the Sons of Liberty. And grow it did! These were not the leading men of Boston, but rather workers and tradesmen. It was unseemly that they would be so agitated by a parliamentary act. Though their ranks did not include Samuel and John Adams, the fact may have been a result of a mutually beneficial agreement. The Adams' and other radical members of the legislature were daily in the public eye; they could not afford to be too closely associated with violence, neither could the secretive Sons of Liberty afford much public exposure. However, amongst the members were two men who could generate much public sentiment about the Act. Benjamin Edes, a printer, and John Gill of the Boston Gazette produced a steady stream of news and opinion. Within a very short time a group of some two thousand men had been organized under Ebenezer McIntosh, a South Boston shoemaker.

The first widely known acts of the Sons took place on August 14, 1765, when an effigy of Andrew Oliver (who was to be commissioned Distributor of Stamps for Massachusetts) was found hanging in a tree on Newbury street, along with a large boot with a devil climbing out of it. The boot was a play on the name of the Earl of Bute and the whole display was intended to establish an evil connection between Oliver and the Stamp Act. The sheriffs were told to remove the display but protested in fear of their lives, for a large crowd had formed at the scene. Before the evening a mob burned Oliver's property on Kilby street, then moved on to his house. There they beheaded the effigy and stoned the house as its occupants looked out in horror. They then moved to nearby Fort Hill were they built a large fire and burned what was left of the effigy. Most of the crowd dissipated at that point, however McIntosh and crew, then under cover of darkness, ransacked Oliver's abandoned home until midnight. On that evening it became very clear who ruled Boston. The British Militia, the Sheriffs and Justices, kept a low profile. No one dared respond to such violent force.

By the end of that year the Sons of Liberty existed in every colony. Their most popular objective was to force Stamp Distributors throughout the colonies to resign. The groups also applied pressure to any Merchants who did not comply with the non-importation associations. Wherever these groups existed they were either directed in secret by leading men in the community or actually lead by them. However, there were opportunists everywhere, too, who would use the name Sons of Liberty to carry out acts of revenge and other violence not related to the cause. For example, in South Carolina a group of sailors, calling themselves The Sons of Liberty, formed a mob to coerce money from people on the streets*. Such behavior could certainly undermine the cause, so the Sons spent a great deal of time policing themselves and pretenders. This was the origin on names such as "True Sons," and "True-born Sons" of Liberty.

The success of these movements in undermining the Stamp Act cannot be attributed to violence alone. Their most effective work was performed in newsprint. A great many of the Sons were printers and publishers themselves and even those who were not, were sympathetic to the cause. It was they who would pay the most in duties, after all. Nearly every newspaper in the colonies carried daily reports of the activities of the Sons. Accounts of the most dramatic escapades spread throughout the colonies. In one most remarkable incident, an account of the Virginia Stamp Act Resolutions was printed far and wide. It is not certain how many of the editors who reprinted it were aware of the status of the resolutions, but seven were printed, while only five actually passed (the fifth was in fact rescinded the day after adoption.) The ultimate effect of such propaganda was to embolden both citizens and Legislatures in every colony. When the Stamp Act became effective on the 1st of November, 1765, nearly all of these papers went right on publishing without the required Stamp.

In the early months of 1766 there was such chaos that many of the royal governors had gone into hiding. The Sheriffs and Militia that they might have counted on to keep the peace were mostly members of the Sons of Liberty. Governors were afraid to unlock the weapons stores. Few royal troops were available and they were vastly outnumbered in any case. The Sons of Liberty had displaced the royal government in nearly every colony. The Stamp Act Congress had concluded its business, but there was little hope that its petition to Gr. Britain would be heard. Correspondence between the various groups began, toward the mutual support and defense of the cause. It was expected that eventually British troops would land and attempt to reassert control. So it was that the first efforts to unite the colonies were not undertaken by their respective legislatures, but by these independent radical groups. The various Sons throughout the colonies began to correspond and develop a larger organization.


The flag of the Sons of Liberty

9 stripes for(this is the debated part) either the original 9 Colonies, or the Loyal 9 men. I have seen both in online research as well as books. Either way, this flag is known as 'The Rebellious Stripes' and was outlawed by the British


The bottom line is this: The Sons of Liberty were made up of Gentry, Middle Class, and the Blue Collar Worker. They were not afraid to do violence, nor were they afraid to 'send messages' that would be taken today as vandalism. Their violent acts ranged from simple rocks and bricks through windows to hanging the local Distributor of Stamps in effigy. Some of us are ready to do the work. Many will support it through financial assets. Who says Liberty is dead?

 

[hofhine1]

There is an unfortunate problem here.

With the 'patriot act' these folks can now be monitored, by any and all government types with no 'affidavit or warrant' whatsoever.

Should they be deemed to be 'domestic terrists', (which they obviously will) they can be detained indefinitely, while sheep on the right and left sit on their asses on their I-whatever the fuck and do nothing. Thank you NDAA.

Of course should they take and hold a position, we know that there are not only, (with overwhelming support of all the folks who have been led to believe we need these for our safety) Predator Class UAV's ready to work inside US airspace, but the new and faster turbine powered Reapers. God Bless the hell fire missile.

Switchblade, I'm with you, I just like to point out the obvious fact of where we are, and how we've let them get us here, stealing our hard earned money and labor to pay for it all.

I'm going to go clean my M1A 's up and cool off a couple frosty beers and wait.


Sean

 

[KYpatriot]

I think we are closer to a civil war than we have been since the last one, but that does not mean we are in fact close to that happening. Even if that remote possibility were to come to pass, I don't believe that our government could win such an action.

Ten years now fighting and observing the insurgency in Iraq, it occurs to me that while you are correct in your assessment of our current war-fighting capabilities we were still never able to to fully hold and pacify that country even with a motivated and unified military that enjoyed absolute integrity of the supply chain with no worries of the security of their own family or property. Also consider that Iraq is no larger than just California, with less people, with nowhere the resources and wealth, and which has open desert terrain much more vulnerable to such technology than most areas of the US. Now consider that we have thousands of well armed, well educated, well trained veterans and police officers who will side for the Constitution and the rule of law, along with tens of millions of other armed capable men. Consider that some active duty men will defect and and some will stay and disrupt from within. Consider that using armed drone strikes on American soil would create as many patriots as it destroys. I could go on and on, but you should see that the US government would have no hope whatsoever of winning a real American insurgency. The existence of instant communication and information dissemination which as you say are monitored still work more to the advantage of insurgents than it does governments who used to enjoy a monopoly in these areas enabling them to control the message.

Obviously a second civil war would be an epic disaster for our citizens, and the real danger is that the statists in our government, most of whom have little experience with such matters, might actually believe such a fight would be winnable. We should do our best to peacefully assure them that it is not, so that we don't have to actually prove the point. The real victory we must strive for is to keep our liberty with words without having to prove that we can do so by other means. We must keep the moral high ground through calm, considered words and actions but back them up with absolute resolve.

 

[Switchblade]

A new civil war would devastate the country and the government would not win this time. The havoc it would create with the economy, beans and bullets, and life as we know it is pretty much what I see preventing it from happening. The only thing that may ignite it though, is if they start coming for arms or enact some form of martial law. THAT will cause the SHTF in high order and with a quickness that will not stop. It will take people who have the will to see something bad happen. That will turn them to some form of violent reaction or subversive action. It will also recruit around 16 more, who will recruit 16, etc.
Would we be so bold to throw bricks and stones? Yes. Would we be so bold to hang people in effigy? Surely we would. Would we be so willing to shoot someone, those who have only shot deer and pig? Therein lies the real question for those who would say they are ready, and those of us who actually are. I think veteran's will have a much easier time with this than joe public who has never served. That is where the 3%, 27%, and 20% of those who do it, pay for it, and support it come from. 25% will voice for either side and clap hands whichever side wins as victors, and the last 25% will be the ones we target most.

 

[DuneBoer]

The best thing that could ever happen now is for the Obama administration to overreach and try to come door to door and take our guns away. Eventually someone would have a disagreement with this and it would come to blows. Somebody's relative would be killed and that is how it would start.
No they are too smart for that. They are going to bite off a piece and wait a few years and take another bite all the while we will be waiting for the last straw that we will never see but our desensitized grandchildren will have to endure.

 

[hofhine1]

Seems to me this is where we are at.

Fat, happy, blah,blah,blah.

Bread and circuses.

Or facebook and I-whatever's, bought on credit, so we can look good to the neighbor's.

You come to Tucson, Switchblade, I'm buying the ale.

All of it.


sean

 

[athhud]

Everything would have to go absolutely perfect for .gov to even lose with dignity.

 

[SledDog]

As a side note, the 1st amendment does not protect speech advocating revolution.

 

[sharac]

As a side note, the 1st amendment does not protect speech advocating revolution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

[SledDog]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You can quote it all you want but in practice and common law the decision has been made. Types of speech, and their protections, vary depending on what it is. Political speech is given the most protections. Talk of revolution gets none. I didn't make the rule, just saying if you're going to throw tea into the river do it quietly.

 

[Jethro21]

If a civil war were to break out, my concern would be one or more foreign nations might think the timing was right to try and invade while we were in chaos.

However, if a civil war were to break out here, chaos would also rule the world. World wide economies would shake and enormous instability would be felt world wide. I assume our government recognizes this too.

 

[patsim]

As a side note, the 1st amendment does not protect speech advocating revolution.

You, sir, are absolutely correct. The Second Amendment protects it!

 

[hofhine1]

As a side note, the 1st amendment does not protect speech advocating revolution.

You sir, are absolutely spot on.

It limits government actions, like most of the first ten amendments (and in general) the entire constitution. As it was written that document was a limit on government, as much as a framework of how it would work.

As a free being, I cannot be limited in the types of speech, written or oral, that I use. To say otherwise, would be tyranny of the mind. Of course in modern America, that is now fairly common, if not more commonplace than not.

We have been trained, like monkeys I would say, to think that we cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre. Unfortunately, this is not the case. You may do whatever you like, as to say otherwise would be to practice what we call, (or used to anyway), prior restraint. What comes after, of course, (given your intent), would be civil or criminal proceedings.

Of course this would all be moot in a world that has been led to believe every single word or action one takes can be perceived to be some sort of action against one's government, when all it really is, like every sentence I read above, is dissemination of information, and to take it otherwise is extremely paranoid.

I would suggest, if you have time, reading a book by Gordon Wood, called "The Radicalism of the American Revolution', it's difficult reading, but quite an eye opener, it may actually do to you what it did to me, change your entire way of looking at things.

Of course I believe more like John Locke than most, and he said something to the effect of, (I paraphrase here) that 'revolution is not only a right, but a responsibility.'

I'll take my lead from him, and the men that held him in high esteem, like Thomas Jefferson.

And I'll say, think and write whatever I like, if you don't like it, google me up, and send my name over to the ministrar of thoughtcrime, ( or maybe it's precrime now, I'm so confused) in your local province, I'm sure they can find me, I'm out in the middle of it every single day.

sean

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Please bear with the preceding advertisement.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2186710402001/second-american-revolution-on-the-horizon/?intcmp=obnetwork

The dogs of (civil) war are already sniffing at our doors. We're not seeking it, the government is trying to provoke it themselves.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If a civil war were to break out, my concern would be one or more foreign nations might think the timing was right to try and invade while we were in chaos.

However, if a civil war were to break out here, chaos would also rule the world. World wide economies would shake and enormous instability would be felt world wide. I assume our government recognizes this too.

This precisely the kind of dynamite our Government is playing with. They have slipped their Constitutional bonds, and are consequently driving headlong into a domestic confrontation which could heighten our Nation's vulnerability to outside threats.

I, for one, am fed up to 'there' of being screwed over by a cabal of opinionated extremist amateur dilettantes. They are behaving in the manner of idiot children who insist upon playing with matches in the midst of a powder magazine.

When a government cannot answer for its failings, it deflects. The burden of horror and pain caused by career criminals is being heaped on law abiding citizen gun owners, who are subsequently being penalized for crimes they neither commit nor encourage. The real culprits here are the legislators and elected official who doggedly, persistently protect the of criminals while burdening the law abiding with ridiculous harebrained excuses for ineffective law enforcement.

The logic seems to be that defending the rights of criminals, while attacking the rights of lawful citizens, will absolve the government's direct complicity in crimes committed by the deranged against innocents.

I am not a problem. I am a citizen whose Constitutionally guaranteed right are being systematically, incrementally, and implacably attacked by the very officials I have elected in order to safeguard my rights. That government has reneged on its mandate to safeguard the rights of the individual and defaulted on their oaths to protect and defend your Constitutional Rights and mine.

Government may not pick and choose among which Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights they might support or oppress. If one is threatened, so are they all. If one of us is oppressed, so are we all.

I say, "enough". This idiocy stops now.

No better time can come to push back than now, while we still have the means to have our say taken seriously.

Now is the time to say "NO!" in a voice which may still not be silenced.

Greg

 

[pmclaine]

This precisely the kind of dynamite our Government is playing with. They have slipped their Constitutional bonds, and are consequently driving headlong into a domestic confrontation which could heighten our Nation's vulnerability to outside threats.

I, for one, am fed up to 'there' of being screwed over by a cabal of opinionated extremist amateur dilettantes. They are behaving in the manner of idiot children who insist upon playing with matches in the midst of a powder magazine.

When a government cannot answer for its failings, it deflects. The burden of horror and pain caused by career criminals is being heaped on law abiding citizen gun owners, who are subsequently being penalized for crimes they neither commit nor encourage. The real culprits here are the legislators and elected official who doggedly, consistently protect the rights criminals while burdening the law abiding with ridiculous harebrained excuses for ineffective law enforcement.

The logic seems to be that defending the rights of criminals, while attacking the rights of lawful citizens, will absolve the government's direct complicity in crimes committed by the deranged against innocents.

I am not a problem. I am a citizen whose Constitutionally guaranteed right are being systematically, incrementally, and implacably attacked by the very officials I have elected in order to safeguard my rights. That government has reneged on its mandate to safeguard the rights of the individual and defaulted on their oaths to protect and defend your Constitutional Rights and mine.

Government may not pick and choose among which Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights they might support or oppress. If one is threatened, so are they all. If one of us is oppressed, so are we all.

I say, "enough". This idiocy stops now.

No better time can come to push back than now, while we still have the means to have our say taken seriously.

Now is the time to say "NO!" in a voice which may still not be silenced.

Greg

Agreed....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Knowledge is not power. Belief is power. Power is power.

Power is an illusion. It only truly exists where the people believe it exists. Anywhere else is a sham.

What if they extended a firearms ban, and nobody complied? Where is their power then?

Good questions, I think...

 

[Maggot]

Please bear with the preceding advertisement.

But I like Gillette.

Well said, Sherriff Clark.

 

[Handloader]

Knowledge is not power. Belief is power. Power is power.

Power is an illusion. It only truly exists where the people believe it exists. Anywhere else is a sham.

What if they extended a firearms ban, and nobody complied? Where is their power then?

Good questions, I think...

+1^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Greg, I have come to enjoy reading your response.....

 

[pmclaine]

The way it is designed WE give them power.

If we refuse we in effect withdraw the power to do whatever they are trying to do.

If they decide to use force that is tyranny.

If they resort to tyranny, at great cost, we win.

Resisting tyranny is just.

 

[SledDog]

You sir, are absolutely spot on.

It limits government actions, like most of the first ten amendments (and in general) the entire constitution. As it was written that document was a limit on government, as much as a framework of how it would work.

As a free being, I cannot be limited in the types of speech, written or oral, that I use. To say otherwise, would be tyranny of the mind. Of course in modern America, that is now fairly common, if not more commonplace than not.

We have been trained, like monkeys I would say, to think that we cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre. Unfortunately, this is not the case. You may do whatever you like, as to say otherwise would be to practice what we call, (or used to anyway), prior restraint. What comes after, of course, (given your intent), would be civil or criminal proceedings.

Of course this would all be moot in a world that has been led to believe every single word or action one takes can be perceived to be some sort of action against one's government, when all it really is, like every sentence I read above, is dissemination of information, and to take it otherwise is extremely paranoid.

I would suggest, if you have time, reading a book by Gordon Wood, called "The Radicalism of the American Revolution', it's difficult reading, but quite an eye opener, it may actually do to you what it did to me, change your entire way of looking at things.

Of course I believe more like John Locke than most, and he said something to the effect of, (I paraphrase here) that 'revolution is not only a right, but a responsibility.'

I'll take my lead from him, and the men that held him in high esteem, like Thomas Jefferson.

And I'll say, think and write whatever I like, if you don't like it, google me up, and send my name over to the ministrar of thoughtcrime, ( or maybe it's precrime now, I'm so confused) in your local province, I'm sure they can find me, I'm out in the middle of it every single day.

sean

I will check out the Wood book. I think the issue of 'free speech' is an interesting one in that, even though we hold ourselves up with individual rights, so does every one with different beliefs behind their interpretation. So while you and I certainly have the right to talk about anything at any time (tyranny of the mind) there are consequences when our discussion starts to effect others. Heck, simply discussing something illegal can be construed as a crime through an "overt act" which may be fairly mundane to us.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The slow way is the hard way. They know this. This truth lives at the heart of all their plans. We need to educate them that this sword cuts both ways.

In crisis there is opportunity to advance a slow process. They know this. It is a central tenet of their plans. We need to educate them that this blade also cuts both ways.

Our old ways serve their purposes. We need to embrace new ways.

Dishonor serves their ways. Hard as it may be to admit, duplicity and prevarication are truly effective means, which wll equally well serve any master who dares use them. Our own honesty and honor are the petards by which they hang us. We can have victory or we can have honor. So if some of us must sacrifice our honor so our brethren may have victory; it is a worthy sacrifice. They never hesitate to do this, therefore we must school ourselves likewise. All's fair...

Wars are not won by treating the other guy kindly. Let us therefore learn to practice their brand of kindness. Nice guys don't win.

The slow way is the hard way. The hard way is the right way. They know this. We must take this same knowledge to heart.

Up to this point, they have planned the agenda, called the shots, and we have played a reactive, defensive role. We need to reject a strategy which has served their purpose to our own detriment. The reactive, defensive role must continue, but we need to supplement that strategy with directly offensive and proactive roles as well.

Their plans require pawns, our plans require our knowledge of their inner workings. How better to gain that knowledge than to volunteer as some of those pawns. They would..., they probably already have. How better to derail their plans than to infiltrate their very core. Even if those pawns did nothing but pass on intel, they could never again completely trust their own forces. And those pawn need not be completely passive. We need to recruit where they do their recruiting. Our pawns need to look, sound, behave exactly like their pawns. Our pawns must be their pawns except for one thing, they need to be our pawns. Never take offense at the word 'pawn'. It is pawns who make the game winnable. Their very presence sews distrust, insecurity, and permits internal havoc to be inserted into their midst.

These people are political animals. They gain their effectiveness through a quid pro quo methodology. Therein lies dirt. That dirt needs to see the light if day. Yet another useful role for duplicitous pawns.

Fight dirty? Certainly..., as dirty as one can; they do...

All's fair...

Think of this in terms of how Sun Tsu would approach the matter...

Greg

 

[ggmanning]

In a true revolution who is the government going to fight....the Patriots or the millions who just stopped getting free housing, food, cell phones, utility bills and healthcare and are now cold and starving? The entitlement crowd is going to go ape shit in an economic collapse without their government gifts. I for one welcome total collapse and a broke government. Yep it would be hard but a total about face is all that's going to save this country and take it back to the principles of foundation. We will never reset our welfare populace or large goverment inclination without something to eliminate the problem by natural selection. Not a lot of liberals left when it's survival of the fittest and no entitlement populace left when there is none left to hand out.

 

[JB5812]

The biggest problem I have seen is ALL OF US. I WISH that we would all rally up enough to make headlines. I WISH we would all hold these people accountable. WE DO NOT. The majority of us sit around complaining about it and slowly watch our own damn states take away our rights and decide moving is the best option. WHEN DO WE DO SOMETHING??? HOW do we get the other millions of home defenders/hunters/target shooters/collectors to come together as PEOPLE DEFENDING RIGHTS instead of separate groups who don't care what happens to the others as long as it doesn't effect their personal interests?

I find myself getting more upset about US then the anti's. WE are letting them do this. I DO NOT want a revolution as I don't want to see the U.S. go through it and completely deform our way of life for a period of time. I just wish there was a way to get everyone together. I wish that the big companies and organizations would schedule a big rally or something. We obviously can't handle getting everyone together as it doesn't seem like a big deal to people that just don't care enough.

Anyone have an answer to this? I'm personally tired of just sitting here stressing about it and telling other gun owners this crap, but falling on deaf ears. They say "Wow that's shitty" or "That pisses me off", but what do they do? They go back to not caring, when supposedly this is their hobby/sport/life. I don't understand it and am at a loss as to how to get people to CARE!

WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY of the media covering every little burp like the anti's do. Our messages and triumphs are not covered by mainstream media, which means we have to do things that make sure we get heard. This means EVERYONE that remotely gives a shit doing their part.



I'm tired of this...

 

[Switchblade]

Hmmm, the next big noisy holiday is the Fourth of July. Imagine if you will, the havoc created by gunfire as fireworks are going off. If my history reading is correct, someone used this exact same tactic during Tet in a jungle long ago and far away and made a shitload of headway with it.
Sure, bricks and rocks with Bills of Rights tied to them with red and white ribbons are great for local businesses that support the onslaught against freedom, but sooner or later, the first shot must be fired, and that shot will ring far and wide, and then all hell will break loose, but really, think about it all happening on the Fourth of July during the fireworks

 

[Switchblade]

As my normal Naval Jack has run it's course to shredded stripe, I think I may go to the local hobby lobby and DIY one of the old style Rebellious Stripes and fly that

 

[High Binder]

Please bear with the preceding advertisement.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2186710402001/second-american-revolution-on-the-horizon/?intcmp=obnetwork

The dogs of (civil) war are already sniffing at our doors. We're not seeking it, the government is trying to provoke it themselves.

Greg

^^^ Yep!

It's coming why do you think they're buying so much ammo...

 

[High Binder]

In a true revolution who is the government going to fight....the Patriots or the millions who just stopped getting free housing, food, cell phones, utility bills and healthcare and are now cold and starving? The entitlement crowd is going to go ape shit in an economic collapse without their government gifts. I for one welcome total collapse and a broke government. Yep it would be hard but a total about face is all that's going to save this country and take it back to the principles of foundation. We will never reset our welfare populace or large goverment inclination without something to eliminate the problem by natural selection. Not a lot of liberals left when it's survival of the fittest and no entitlement populace left when there is none left to hand out.

I agree, It's going to happen, there's no doubt about it. It's happened to every country many times over the past. France has been at least five different versions of France and every other country has had the same thing in their past. I just prefer it to happen while I'm still around so I can see my kids through it. This is why I'd like to see it happen today. The sooner the better. This only problem is that we're assuming that a revolution will lead back to a nation that follows the constitution but in reality it's more likely to divide the states up with who knows what kind of government/constitution. However, like I said before, it's just a question of time and I'd much rather it happen on my watch then leaving it to my kids to deal with.

 

[pawprint2]

What is "Hate Speech"? Is this protected by the 1st anymore? Who amongst us supports "hate speech laws, rules etc." I've been of a mind, for quite some time, that if the govt. can get the majority of people to agree that "hate speech" is bad and unlawful, then they have succeeded in getting the majority of the people to agree, defacto, that the 1st adm. isn't the law of the land anymore, and maybe the rest of the Constitution isn't really the "law", but can be changed depending on little things like "Hate speech".

 

[Cserv]

I agree, It's going to happen, there's no doubt about it. It's happened to every country many times over the past. France has been at least five different versions of France and every other country has had the same thing in their past. I just prefer it to happen while I'm still around so I can see my kids through it. This is why I'd like to see it happen today. The sooner the better. This only problem is that we're assuming that a revolution will lead back to a nation that follows the constitution but in reality it's more likely to divide the states up with who knows what kind of government/constitution. However, like I said before, it's just a question of time and I'd much rather it happen on my watch then leaving it to my kids to deal with.

I'm with this same line of thought H.B. My only real fear in all this bullshit, is for my family. I know what iI stand for and believe in, also what I am willing to sacrifice. But what of the little ones? Something we all are all too aware of. I too would much rather bare this cross, than leave it to my children.

Eric

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The Sons of Liberty feared for their children too, but they rightly feared for them more under the same sort of oppression that is clearly coming. Revolution is not only a right, it is an obligation.

Please don't take this as an incitement to violence. That is precisely what I wish to avoid, both by us, and upon us. I may not be able to ensure that they will or won't bring violence to us, but I can try to influence violence on our part, and I steadfastly advise against it.

We do not oppose them with honor by bringing their kind of pain to others, or to ourselves. Remember Gandhi and King. The slow way is the hard way, but the hard way is the right way. Revolution may take many forms, and not all of them require force of arms.

It may be just as simple as 'just say no', it may take more sacrifice than that. Belief is power, and if enough folks say 'No' their power is null. If they resort to force they reveal themselves for the surreptitious fascists they are, deep down and hidden from plain sight.

But the one thing that can conclusively assure their success is for good men to do nothing.

Greg

 

[Phil1]

Seems to me this is where we are at.

Fat, happy, blah,blah,blah.

Bread and circuses.

Or facebook and I-whatever's, bought on credit, so we can look good to the neighbor's.

You come to Tucson, Switchblade, I'm buying the ale.

All of it.


sean

I'm recovering from cracked ribs. Please refrain from posting similar material.

My chest still hurts from laughing.

 

[Numb_Skull]

If I took my rifle and killed a few garbage politicians in D.C. that are taking away our rights none of you would call me a patriot only a terrorist.

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Words are just that, meaningless and a waste of time. The only way people change is by seeing the broken bodies of loved ones.

 

[Cserv]

If I took my rifle and killed a few garbage politicians in D.C. that are taking away our rights none of you would call me a patriot only a terrorist.

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Words are just that, meaningless and a waste of time. The only way people change is by seeing the broken bodies of loved ones.

You would only be considered a terrorist by those you were terrorizing.

 

[pmclaine]

The side that over plays its hand first loses.

Brits did it in 1775. CSA in 1861 South Carolina, Japanese at Pearl Harbor.

Sucked for those guys on the Green, the men manning the ramparts at Sumter and those guys enjoying a quiet morning at Pearl Harbor but it awoke the giant and and a sense of indignation that made everyone know the cause was just.

(Okay you Southern guys can now argue my point now about whether or not Fort Sumter is a fair example).

 

[Switchblade]

If I took my rifle and killed a few garbage politicians in D.C. that are taking away our rights none of you would call me a patriot

I would assist in escape and evasion as well as buy the beer and food for a patriot. Always remember though, one man's patriot is the other man's terrorist. I also think something like that would cause quite a few copy cat actions as well. This, however is inadvisable.
They should be allowed to experience being hanged in effigy and a few bricks through their windows with attached Bills of Rights. This will allow them to rethink their positions, or at least understand them better.

 

[Guest]

Aid, Comfort and other Amenity's can be counted upon from the 1st Alabama,... just like the last go round.
We "Shine" in more ways than one. FTN

 

[eclipse57]

They should be allowed to experience being hanged in effigy and a few bricks through their windows with attached Bills of Rights. This will allow them to rethink their positions, or at least understand them better.

Excellent idea my friend. They should also be made to read that same bill of rights! I am fairly certain that most have never read the bill of rights, much less the entire constitution. They swear to uphold it, they should be forced to read it before taking their oath of office.

 

[KYpatriot]

The side that over plays its hand first loses.

Brits did it in 1775. CSA in 1861 South Carolina, Japanese at Pearl Harbor.

Sucked for those guys on the Green, the men manning the ramparts at Sumter and those guys enjoying a quiet morning at Pearl Harbor but it awoke the giant and and a sense of indignation that made everyone know the cause was just.

(Okay you Southern guys can now argue my point now about whether or not Fort Sumter is a fair example).

Spot on PM. Wait for it. These statists can't help themselves, and will deliver.

 

[EdwardTeach]

If I took my rifle and killed a few garbage politicians in D.C. that are taking away our rights none of you would call me a patriot only a terrorist.

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Words are just that, meaningless and a waste of time. The only way people change is by seeing the broken bodies of loved ones.

Word......

 

[Accraholic]

In the case of citizens taking up arms against govt officials, what role do you guys predict for our military personnel, homeland security forces, secret service, city police, county sheriff, state police, etc ? How about outside support for our govt from ????? maybe the U.N., China, etc ? We seem to mobilize to get involved on other peoples revolutions, why would we expect to be allowed to overthrow our govt while it's friends stand back and watch ?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Look; I experience the same deep frustrations many of you are voicing here.

But we do not overcome our opposition by becoming just like them. They poise the very real force of an entire government over our heads.

Violence threatened is not all that different from violence unleashed. The moral and ethical aspects of such acts of violence make them wanton regardless of who performs them.

We need to throttle our response back into the realm of the reasonable.

I keep emphasizing that Emails, Letters, Rallies, Etc. may well have a very limited outcome regarding how the legislators choose to 'resolve' this issue.

But there is much more to this question than just those legislators and their potshots taken at the 2nd.

Win or lose in that arena, there is also the rest of the population to deal with; in many ways the very people whose interests we are trying to defend.

I could not comfortably enjoy a victory achieved by any means that alienated us from the very folks we're trying to help.

Acts of wanton violence directed at the offending elected officials really is terrorism, really is intolerable. It is something I would not simply refuse to condone. I would encourage enforcement to track down and seize such people for punishment, just like people who commit any other acts of terrorism.

It's the wrong way. Gandhi and King's way continues to be right. The slow way is the right way. 'Simple solutions' are seldom truly simple, and even more seldom justifiable

We ask, in a true revolution who would the government fight? In a shooting war, a lot of people.

Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Then consider a concept, collateral damage. That would be our friends, our loved ones, innocent neighbors, etc.

You really like that idea? I ask because it's not only a likely outcome, it's the most likely outcome. I don't shy away from that or any other prospect, but I do consider very carefully the circumstances where I might consider it as a viable alternative.

Greg

 

[Switchblade]

This was a conversation among many Soldiers throughout my career. Often it would be one I walked into. Many officers and enlisted think alike. "I would wait until we got our entire issue for combat in our AO, then I would disappear into the night and go home to protect my family/friends/town."
I cannot speak for the multitude of DHS or other governmental agencies. As I have stated before, I think governmental agencies, especially LEO agencies will be the initial victims of the people as they defend their rights. The sheriff who spoke on FOX said,"...I don't want to get shot!" He made the statement that he would not try to abridge people's because they will defend them with arms to the death.
Is there a campaign to desensitize these people by training them to shoot pregnant women and children targets? I do not know. I would like to see some video proof to back up the claim I have seen on this subject matter. If it is true, things will become very ugly, very fast

 

[sharac]

Things are ugly as i don't live in US and i have had followed shooting/other US forums for more than a decade and have quite few friends there i do have distanced view to it. Imagine lets say 10y ago (before 9/11 for example) and i'd start with posting some of the things you discuss now. I'd be banned in a second or proclaimed idiot, moron or worse and yet here we are discussing this shitty situation. It took (in my eyes) for something unfathomable to become normal less than 10y how long to do you think this will drag on - in my opinion not very long now.

All the good wishes and intentions this one (i have no delusions that this is limited to US only as we here in Europe have truckloads of "imported problems" in other native vermin to handle) is going to get ugly, unfair, brutal and no side(s) in this coming shit storm will be able to retain an ounce of morality or ethos (perhaps after initial chaos there might be more positive development). It will be simple you either survive or you don't, you either pick side or you're toast time for moral high ground will be a non existent luxury. When our society brakes down the simplest of things will become impossible and surviving will be the "art of impossible". You guys have advantage as you have strong communities and you "gun folks" tend to keep to yourselves and some wiser amongst you have been warning about this for decades and most of you were able to prepare (socially and hardware wise).

 

[hofhine1]

http://www.videosfortruth.com/police-slam-and-hog-tie-pregnant-woman/

This was a conversation among many Soldiers throughout my career. Often it would be one I walked into. Many officers and enlisted think alike. "I would wait until we got our entire issue for combat in our AO, then I would disappear into the night and go home to protect my family/friends/town."
I cannot speak for the multitude of DHS or other governmental agencies. As I have stated before, I think governmental agencies, especially LEO agencies will be the initial victims of the people as they defend their rights. The sheriff who spoke on FOX said,"...I don't want to get shot!" He made the statement that he would not try to abridge people's because they will defend them with arms to the death.
Is there a campaign to desensitize these people by training them to shoot pregnant women and children targets? I do not know. I would like to see some video proof to back up the claim I have seen on this subject matter. If it is true, things will become very ugly, very fast

http://www.videosfortruth.com/police-slam-and-hog-tie-pregnant-woman/


OK, no shooting involved, but I really don't care.

This is where we are, and it's just going to get worse from here.

The rule of law is a dead horse, beat it, kick it, shock it with a AED all you want, we're completely, totally screwed.

I like to give an example to folks, so I draw a square inside a circle, and tell folks, what is that?

Of course they look at me like a fool, and I tell them, that's a castle, in a moat, now where are you?......

Another dumbass look and I answer, 'outside the moat, dumbshit, and you'll never be in it, read a history book, it's been this way for almost two thousand years!!'

I want like hell to have hope, but instead I'm gonna have an ice cold beer, at least I can believe in that. I can defend it with a rifle, therefore it is mine.

Anything else right now, is just a bedtime story for sheep, lemmings and fools.




sean

 

[W54/XM-388]

Gandhi and King's way continues to be right.

While those examples are quoted endlessly by people who believe you can overcome bullets with flowers, those are actually 2 very bad examples. In both cases the ONLY reason they succeeded was because those they were up against were people who thought themselves to be decent moral Christians and they were able to appeal to their stated virtues & the people they were up against didn't have it in them to use full scale violence to put an end to it.

Take for instance the pro democracy student uprising in China in 1989, all peace and love and such... Communists sent in the tanks, killed over 3000 and that was the end of that.
How well did Peace and Love work against the Chinese communists prior to that... (the answer is 60 million dead)
How well did Peace and Love work against the Khmer Rouge .... (try millions dead)
How well does Peace and Love currently work in North Korea ... (hint: death for you and your family in the Gulags with thousands of others)
How well does Peace and Love work if you are a Christian trying to live in a Muslim country.... (Hint: live in fear of your life till someone kills you)
How well did Peace and Love work against the Soviet communists .... (the answer is 30+ million dead)
How well did Peace and Love work against the Nazis? (10+ million dead)
How well does Peace and Love work in most of Africa?
How well did Peace and Love work in the brutal Dutch colonies?
How well does Peace and Love work in the middle east?
How well does Peace and Love work in the border towns of Mexico?

The answer is simply that Peace, Love and Non Violence, ONLY works against Christians. For everybody else you are deluding yourself. The problem is that too many people, (Specifically Western Christians who have had things way too easy for far too long) do not comprehend true evil & true hate. When you are faced with true evil by people who hate you, hate your ideas and hate your god & want to destroy you and make you their slaves till you die out, or just wipe you off the planet outright, there can be no hesitation. All that your "Peace and Love" will do is make sure that you are taken to the death camps in an orderly fashion & provide useful work till you are too feeble and ready to be eliminated.

Right now we are still in the stage where there is freedom and leaders have to at least pretend to obey the law most of the time and can't do drastic things, and there is time to at least try to win the battle for the hearts and minds of the undecided, but that can change on a dime and you could wake up to a whole new world very quickly.

 

[EdwardTeach]

The shitstorm is mathmatical certainty. What sharac said is just as certain. Greg, I get you man. You know it but you can't quite yet accept it. You will.

 

[KYpatriot]

If George Washington had been ghandi we would be singing god save the queen before cricket matches.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I will not lead my friends and neighbors out onto any limbs. When they pick their direction, I will be moving in their midst.

Are you really all so sure you'd like to prove me wrong?

I don't know how many among us have actually been in a shooting war. I have. I think that when you get there for the first time, you learn things you just can't put into stirring words on an internet forum; things you don't ever want any young folks to have to learn.

Greg

 

[oughtsix]

I see greg's point, and I understand that the implications of acting against one's own country are far-reaching, to say the least. Diplomacy is rules one through three, and all that. But I have to wonder, were Patrick Henry here today, to see the elected trampling on his freedom and the constitution, would he sit idly by and watch from the couch, but only during the commercial break? Hardly. Fucking livid, he would be, and so should the rest of us. "Give me liberty, or give me death" is a heavy statement, heavier than most of my generation can stomach, but in the end is the mantra by which liberty lives or dies. It is a very simple idea: when it comes time, do you sell out for a stack of food stamps and a government bed, or do you push back and keep what is yours at any and all costs? I see no middle ground whatsoever, but I take heart in the observation that more would be on the side of liberty than I would have thought even a year ago.