Rifle Scopes Tract Toric ELR vs Burris XTR IIIi NOW With some Burris Pro and now some Zeiss LRP S3 also!

#51
Rob01 said:
Yeah the LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice for your use. Plenty of magnification and elevation. That said if you wanted the extra magnification and dropped it on a 40 moa base you can dial to 400 and then some with the 6-36. Both have parallax down to plenty low enough at 15 for 4-25 and 10 for the 6-36. Really no wrong answer but comes down to your wants and needs. Either would do the job very well.
Click to expand...

Rob01 said:
Yeah the LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice for your use. Plenty of magnification and elevation. That said if you wanted the extra magnification and dropped it on a 40 moa base you can dial to 400 and then some with the 6-36. Both have parallax down to plenty low enough at 15 for 4-25 and 10 for the 6-36. Really no wrong answer but comes down to your wants and needs. Either would do the job very well.
Click to expand...
Hey Rob,

Thanks for all the great information.
I think your setup mirrors closely to my intended use case and setup.
Would you mind sharing your dope for your vudo from 50yrd - > 4/500??
I'm trying to figure out if I want any MOA on my rings, and if I the 4-25 will have enough dial up to 400/500.

Vudoo base will be 30 MOA.
Thinking the rings will be 0 as I really am hoping to stretch the s3 from 50 Feet (indoor) -> 400/500 yards.

Pretty certain it will be the 4-25 but the thought has crossed my mind for the 6-36.
Just worried I wont have enough dial up w/ONLY 30 MOA base.

Thanks,
Chris
 
#52
weasle said:
Hey Rob,

Thanks for all the great information.
I think your setup mirrors closely to my intended use case and setup.
Would you mind sharing your dope for your vudo from 50yrd - > 4/500??
I'm trying to figure out if I want any MOA on my rings, and if I the 4-25 will have enough dial up to 400/500.

Vudoo base will be 30 MOA.
Thinking the rings will be 0 as I really am hoping to stretch the s3 from 50 Feet (indoor) -> 400/500 yards.

Pretty certain it will be the 4-25 but the thought has crossed my mind for the 6-36.
Just worried I wont have enough dial up w/ONLY 30 MOA base.

Thanks,
Chris
Click to expand...

Glad I could help some Chris. 400 is about 19.5 mils and 500 is about 26.9 mils with my current SK Long Range ammo. My 6-36 on a 40 moa base has about 26.5 mils. The scope has 32 mils total so going 60 moa would be a little close for me but 50 moa should work.

The 4-25 will give you more obviously. If you put it on the 30 moa base you can put more in the mount if you wanted. It will do 60 moa easy. Will be up to you what you want in the end but either should work.
 
#60
Whistlermd said:
Impeccable timing. In the market for a new scope for a Rim-x build and this has been very helpful.
Click to expand...
I responded to your post in the RimX thread concerning a scope for your new build. In my response, I noted that Rob recommends a Zeiss S3 in a different thread... wrt scopes, Rob is like a fly at a picnic... lots of tasty dishes to try... Once in awhile I'm along for the new-cuisine experience. Pay attention to ROb's reviews and have fun.
 
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#66
giumau1 said:
Hey @Rob01 , great reviews. Planning on a S3 425 for PRS centerfire. How is the Eyebox and Fov on the Zeiss?
Thank you
Click to expand...

Thanks. Eye box and FOV are both good in the Zeiss S3s. No issues getting behind it in matches with either the 4-25 or 6-36. Both have good FOV also. Not sure if it was in this post or another where someone asked but the FOV was only about .5 mils difference between it and the Burris Pro which is always touted as one of the best FOV.
 
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#67
Well made it out to the range finally! I had zeroed the Tract the other day at home on my 30 yard range and no surprises. went out today and Gary @DownhillFromHere was out there with his ZCO so we compared the 5-27 ZCO to the 4-25 S3 and 4-25 Tract. I know not a really fair comparison but not a bad one.

Some comments on the Tract first though as it's new. The glass is very good for a $1500 scope. Clear and bright and the reticle is great like the 4.5-30 reticle I had was. Illumination is daylight bright also so can be used in bright sunshine at matches if needed. Knobs are audible and tactile. After zeroing on the 20 MOA base I had 27.1 mils of elevation so with 47 mils total you can see I still had plenty of ability to add cant to the rifle and get more. The eye box seems easier to get behind than the 4.5-30 was and there is less of the "tunneling" feel, which is actually the outer body of the scope, and not a real tunneling like the S&Bs. All in all this is an excellent scope in it's price range and I am glad I got it.

Now to a little comparison with all on 25x. Glass. Well as you guessed the ZCO had the best glass. It was just a little brighter but clarity was just a little better than the S3 which was just a little better than the Tract. We were looking at 400 yard steel and a small ribbon that was tied to a bar out there and they all could give good definition of the steel hits and bolts and the ribbon.

FOV was all really close. The ZCO was at about 8.4 mils, the Tract at 8 mils and the S3 at about 7.8. So basically a push as all have a good FOV at max power. When you dial down to around 15x they also all have goo FOVs for taking shots at multiple targets on a stage. The reticle is still usable on all of them for holds also.

One thing Gary noticed was that he felt he had to get a little closer to the scope than with the other two and I used my pen(all I had on hand) to measure from the side the distance from his pupil to the back of the scope. With the Tract he was about 1/4" closer than the S3 and about 1/2" close than the ZCO. There was a good distance with all so you weren't right up on the scope so recoil would hit your eye but just a hair closer. I just threw the rifle on a prop to get a feel of it in the pic below so you can see that I didn't need to be right up on the scope and plenty of room between you and the scope.

Here's a few pics of the Tract on my rifle and some shots of it next to the Zeiss S3. I am sure I missed something so ask away if there is a question.

IMG_3913a.JPG
IMG_3905.JPG
IMG_3907.JPG
IMG_3909.JPG
 
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#68
Did you have any updates on any of these scopes Rob?

Did you narrow it down to a few favorites or have you kept everything?

I'm really close to buying a Burris XTR Pro, I really like the reticle, FOV, and toolless/removable turret.
However all the reviews on the Zeiss, Element and RZR G3 6-36 make it seem like the better way to go, the Burris doesn't get much love these days.
 
#69
beetroot said:
Did you have any updates on any of these scopes Rob?

Did you narrow it down to a few favorites or have you kept everything?

I'm really close to buying a Burris XTR Pro, I really like the reticle, FOV, and toolless/removable turret.
However all the reviews on the Zeiss, Element and RZR G3 6-36 make it seem like the better way to go, the Burris doesn't get much love these days.
Click to expand...

I have the XTR Pro, LRP S3, and Razor G3. My favorite is the Razor for sure, but all are very serviceable on a hobbiest target/PRS comp rifle.

The XTR Pro is pulling up the rear on most things, but not by much. The contrast isn't quite there with the others, but the clarity is. It has a warmer look to it, and a better reticle for trying to punch parer vs the Zeiss IMO. I got mine when you could grab one for $1,400 - 1,500, and at that price range I think they are a fantastic optic. Not at $2K+ though.

For the LRP S3...I've griped about the lens coating and bloom when the rising/setting sun is directly behind you enough already. The reticle is a bit loud for my liking as well, but is very usable and reticles are personal preferences anyway. Otherwise I think it rules the roost of sub $2K optics still...but I wouldn't pay full retail of $2,200 - 2,400 to get one now.

The G3 Razor is very much comparable with the ATACR. You'll notice a difference between it and the previously two mentioned scopes above if you have them next to each other, but there's not all that much of a difference in glass. Mechanically, I like the detents on the Razor a lot more. Over Memorial Day you could get one for $2,400 again, but that only happens once or twice a year. Depending on what you qualify for... you can get an ATACR for less money the other 361 days per year, and that's what I did for my last purchase a year ago.

So my choice would be made on available budget (provided I could wait for and find the sales):

- $1,500 - XTR Pro
- $2K - LRP S3
- $2,500 - Razor

Sorry, no experience with the Element.
 
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#70
beetroot said:
Did you have any updates on any of these scopes Rob?

Did you narrow it down to a few favorites or have you kept everything?

I'm really close to buying a Burris XTR Pro, I really like the reticle, FOV, and toolless/removable turret.
However all the reviews on the Zeiss, Element and RZR G3 6-36 make it seem like the better way to go, the Burris doesn't get much love these days.
Click to expand...

Diggler gave a pretty good run down. Personally the more I used the SCR2 reticle the less I liked it. It’s light and fine. Not good for my uses in matches. I know some like them so call it personal preference but both the Razor and S3 reticles are better. The tooless elevation is a nice feature though.

I ended up going back to the Razor III. Just the best package for me with the S3 being very close second.
 
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#71
diggler1833 said:
I have the XTR Pro, LRP S3, and Razor G3. My favorite is the Razor for sure, but all are very serviceable on a hobbiest target/PRS comp rifle.

The XTR Pro is pulling up the rear on most things, but not by much. The contrast isn't quite there with the others, but the clarity is. It has a warmer look to it, and a better reticle for trying to punch parer vs the Zeiss IMO. I got mine when you could grab one for $1,400 - 1,500, and at that price range I think they are a fantastic optic. Not at $2K+ though.

For the LRP S3...I've griped about the lens coating and bloom when the rising/setting sun is directly behind you enough already. The reticle is a bit loud for my liking as well, but is very usable and reticles are personal preferences anyway. Otherwise I think it rules the roost of sub $2K optics still...but I wouldn't pay full retail of $2,200 - 2,400 to get one now.

The G3 Razor is very much comparable with the ATACR. You'll notice a difference between it and the previously two mentioned scopes above if you have them next to each other, but there's not all that much of a difference in glass. Mechanically, I like the detents on the Razor a lot more. Over Memorial Day you could get one for $2,400 again, but that only happens once or twice a year. Depending on what you qualify for... you can get an ATACR for less money the other 361 days per year, and that's what I did for my last purchase a year ago.

So my choice would be made on available budget (provided I could wait for and find the sales):

- $1,500 - XTR Pro
- $2K - LRP S3
- $2,500 - Razor

Sorry, no experience with the Element.
Click to expand...
Cheers, that's pretty much what I had come to from reading reviews.

The basic XTR3i isn't far behind the Pro and is considerably cheaper, the Pro is an upgrade but not worth $2200.

The Razor is definitely the best but expensive at full price.

The Zeiss and Element seem to be the best value middle ground.
 
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#73
beetroot said:
Cheers, that's pretty much what I had come to from reading reviews.

The basic XTR3i isn't far behind the Pro and is considerably cheaper, the Pro is an upgrade but not worth $2200.

The Razor is definitely the best but expensive at full price.

The Zeiss and Element seem to be the best value middle ground.
Click to expand...
I just went to EuroOptic to check their prices, because I could swear they're still in the $1500ish range. Looks like you can still find some for $1600, but current production all looks like $2k+. Prices are on the rise everywhere.
 
#74
beetroot said:
Cheers, that's pretty much what I had come to from reading reviews.

The basic XTR3i isn't far behind the Pro and is considerably cheaper, the Pro is an upgrade but not worth $2200.

The Razor is definitely the best but expensive at full price.

The Zeiss and Element seem to be the best value middle ground.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not man, my old US XTR III is more tactile than my Pro. It is actually more tactile than my LRP S3 too though :D .

*****

I am assuming (I can be very wrong, so somebody feel free to correct me on this), that the Element Theos and Zeiss LRP S3 are made in the same place?

Their specs are extremely similar, so I would expect performance to be similar. However, the Theos seems to have a street price of about $400ish more (can be up to $800). Maybe there is a difference in the glass used? Either way, after looking at them side by side on the internet, I'd probably go LRP S3 again and save the money.

I hate being the dork who starts quoting all the .mil/LEO crap, so I won't... but the gap is significant enough to make one look into it for sure.
 
#75
diggler1833 said:
Believe it or not man, my old US XTR III is more tactile than my Pro. It is actually more tactile than my LRP S3 too though :D .

*****

I am assuming (I can be very wrong, so somebody feel free to correct me on this), that the Element Theos and Zeiss LRP S3 are made in the same place?

Their specs are extremely similar, so I would expect performance to be similar. However, the Theos seems to have a street price of about $400ish more (can be up to $800). Maybe there is a difference in the glass used? Either way, after looking at them side by side on the internet, I'd probably go LRP S3 again and save the money.

I hate being the dork who starts quoting all the .mil/LEO crap, so I won't... but the gap is significant enough to make one look into it for sure.
Click to expand...
The Element Theos has a lot going for it but the biggest thing by far is it's toolless Zero Stop. Yes the glass and turrets are great, I like the reticle, but that tooless Zero Stop just rocks. Do a search on this site, you can find good deals on the Element.
 
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#76
rothgyr said:
I just went to EuroOptic to check their prices, because I could swear they're still in the $1500ish range. Looks like you can still find some for $1600, but current production all looks like $2k+. Prices are on the rise everywhere.
Click to expand...
I don't live in the US and Euro wont export, if I had been able to buy a Pro when they were $1400-$1500 I definitely would've jumped on it.

The Pro and XTR 3i is almost impossible to get, or just way more expensive than they are in the US.
The Zeiss S3 is the same price if not cheaper than a Pro.
The RZR G3 is definitely the most expensive and starting to push ZCO/S&B pricing.

It seems that the Zeiss/Element is the best bang for the buck for this class of scope, and they way to go unless the Burris can be had very cheaply.
 
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