Who makes the most accurate AK Barrels?

Afghanvet09

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Anybody build from AK kits here on the board? Most of the the demilled AK kits now have chopped barrels. I have a barreless kit and looking for a 4 MOA or better barrel and seeking opinions.

Arsenal Saiga SGL's with cold hammer forged barrels seem to be capable of very good accuracy. I've seen 3-4 MOA groups with these AK's, which is outstanding since a rack grade M16 firing M855 or M193 ammo is about 3 MOA.

Opinions?
 
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seanh

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AK is for throwing a lot of lead reliably but if you want accuracy, consider an AR in caliber of choice
 

Graham

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How, exactly, would one measure the difference between a good barrel and a no-so-good barrel in an AK?
 

sav338lapua

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E.R. Shaw makes some damn good barrels for ak's my polish tantal (AK-74 ) shoots 1 inch groups with hornady ammo
and my AK-47 shoots 1.5" groups with hornady ammo.
 

Graham

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E.R. Shaw makes some damn good barrels for ak's my polish tantal (AK-74 ) shoots 1 inch groups with hornady ammo
and my AK-47 shoots 1.5" groups with hornady ammo.
MOA from an AK... At what distance are these 1" groups possible?
 

Afghanvet09

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Here's a ten shot group with a 3" extreme spread with Brown Bear 123 HP, Saiga Arsenal SG 21-94, with a day optic. Advance to 6:00 into video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpWtw7SClL4

How, exactly, would one measure the difference between a good barrel and a no-so-good barrel in an AK?

How do you test an AK barrel? Just like any other. Shoot it from a solid rest with a competent marksman, under favorable conditions, with a variety of ammo and day optic if possible. A lot of these have side rail mounts and optics have throw levers that provide a solid lock. Guys please don't hand me the AK's are not meant for that stuff line. It's important to understand what the rifle's capable of - yes even an assault rifle. That way when you put it though the real world paces if you get vastly different results, you know it's not a problem with the rifle.

I've seen Ak's that could not shoot better than 8" at 100 m if they were cemented in a wall. Conversely, I've seen others that would do 4" from a competent shooter in prone. Like most guns, the barrel is a key mechnical component of accuracy. Many builds out there are garage jobs. Jim Fuller builds some of the most accurate AK's, and so does Arsenal (now FIME).
 
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Blazin

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I used a SS Douglas air-gauged barrel for my most recent Galil build. I should have the gun back from the 'smith any day now so I can't report on its accuracy yet.
 

Afghanvet09

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E.R. Shaw makes some damn good barrels for ak's my polish tantal (AK-74 ) shoots 1 inch groups with hornady ammo
and my AK-47 shoots 1.5" groups with hornady ammo.

Can you give me the contact information for the source where you obtained the barrel? Any details (e.g., chrome lined, twist, rifle cut, button, ect,) helpful.
 
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Graham

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Here's a ten shot group with a 3" extreme spread with Brown Bear 123 HP, Saiga Arsenal SG 21-94, with a day optic. Advance to 6:00 into video.
First of all, check the dimensions of the head of a standard IPSC target and then have another look at that group. Secondly, even if that was a 3" group, 3" at 100 yards is 3 MOA which sounds a lot more plausible from an AK. At what distance did you shoot the 1" groups?
 

Afghanvet09

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First of all, check the dimensions of the head of a standard IPSC target and then have another look at that group. Secondly, even if that was a 3" group, 3" at 100 yards is 3 MOA which sounds a lot more plausible from an AK. At what distance did you shoot the 1" groups?

In video looks like about a 3 inch group to me. I haven't shot a 1 MOA group with an AK.

AK is for throwing a lot of lead reliably but if you want accuracy, consider an AR in caliber of choice

Have several AR's already. Know it's a capable platform. Recently shot ~ 7-1/2 inch 5 round group at 500 yards with open irons with my krieger SDMR. Interested in AK barrels here though.
 
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sav338lapua

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here is the rifle it doesnt look like a regular ak-74 anymore which really helps with accuracy secondly hornady ammo drops everything by and inch at least in every gun i have used it in.

mytantal-pka_zps90719173.jpg
 

Afghanvet09

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I called 412-221-3636 and the guy says they dont offer AK barrels. How exactly did you get it? He insists they just do AR barrels. I believe you and several companies report using er shaw for their ak builds.

BTW I got this off warrior talk written by an engineer who owned an AK and did some bench style accuracy testing which I thought was interesting.

First I tested all the different ammo I could find by benching it in a
shooting rest contraption, with a scope, at 100 yards, with no brake and
with the forearm removed. I loaded all ammo into the chamber by hand,
and allowed plenty of time to cool between shots. It's just an accuracy
baseline, not real-world. Here's the list I made a couple years back,
Brown Bear HPs shot better than any other in both my AKMs, though the
testing was done with my "good" AK which is far more accurate than the
other one. But some folks have Wolf or Yugo shoot better in theirs:
NOTE ... this is merely three-shot groups, as I didn't have enough of all
the ammo types for five-shot groups, which is really more representative.

Wolf Performance FMJ 8.5"
Wolf 154gr SP 7.75"
Remington PSP 7.25"
Wolf Performance 122gr HP 6.25"
Remington UMC (cheap FMJ) 6"
Winchester "White Box" FMJ 5.5"
Federal 'Red Box' FMJ SP 4"
Brown Bear FMJ 2.25"
Brown Bear 123gr HP 1.75"
Winchester Super X 123gr SP 1.0" (@ 80 yards)

* Bench testing again trying different forearms and noting how tightly
they fit during installation. One AK wound up with a Galil forearm and the
other wound up back with the stock plastic.

* Trying different gas tube fits using spare or borrowed parts. Both mine
shoot better with more loosely fitting tubes.

* Testing different muzzle brakes. I ditched the slant brake after this. I
gained a noticeable improvement in accuracy with my 'bad' AK when I
went to an AK-74 style brake and didn't lose anything on the 'good' AK.
Could be the way gas is vented and/or the weight of the brake. Not sure,
but it worked. The recoil, already low, is now almost nothing. Just a quick
jump then right back on target. My S308 is getting one of these, soon.

* Ensuring the receiver cover is not pushing against the front trunion
when installed. One of mine fit very tightly and required a pretty good
whack with something to put on. When I ground enough material off the
front edge for a better fit I got more consistent groups.

* Benching the weapon again every time something is added, such as a
light, new rail system, heavier scope, etc. I tried the UTG barrel clamp
rail with a flashlite and had to take it back off because it affected
accuracy. It was likely affecting how the barrel whips.

* Cleaning rod may affect accuracy, especially if it's wedged tightly.


Testing with and without is a good idea, too, if you need to squeeze the
most out of the humble Com Block battle rifle.

* Weighing and measuring the surplus ammo for sorting. We do it for
long range shooting, why not an AK when you need all you can wring out
of it. If anyone has additional ideas I'd like to hear them. I'm sure there are
more tricks to ensure the best accuracy your weapon is capable of. This
just mechanical accuracy of the rifle when fully benched.

And after it's documented then ya gotta train, train, train. The biggest gains in
accuracy are to be had by improvement of the shooter. My 'combat
accuracy' improved by leaps and bounds after I started training and
competing in long range/sniper matches and from learning to shoot from
the trigger reset on the carbine, just like I use with the pistol.
It's the Indian ... not the arrow. But you need to know your arrow is true.
 
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sav338lapua

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Graham

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here is the rifle it doesnt look like a regular ak-74 anymore which really helps with accuracy...
Oh for heaven's sake.....

The Soviets made the most accurate ICBM in the world, but they still never managed to maufacture a decent toaster. There's a reason for that, and it's all over that AK that you posted.
 

Afghanvet09

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Think ER Shaw doesn't do custom single orders for AK barrels, but only for companies like Xtreme or others. It's a shame because I hear they are rifle cut, chrome lined and pretty accurate. One source said ER had got some equipment upgrades and putting out much better product. I've got a gov't profile 20" barrel on order. They said the Texas National Guard rifle team (?) use their barrels and getting 1 MOA performance. Not sure what kind of chamber on the the barrel or ammo.
 

sav338lapua

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dont know whats up with graham he seems to have ak-itis or something. i have used and owned just about every type of military weapon coming and going.
i prefer to put my life and my families life with and ak style rifle why that upsets him is beyond me. i dont go around knocking what people shoot in fact i hope their are having lots of fun - i know i do.
 

rez187

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whats better coke or pepsi........better/best is relative also an accurate ak is like military intelligence an oxymoron buy an ar and shut up
 

K-tech

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AK is for throwing a lot of lead reliably but if you want accuracy, consider an AR in caliber of choice

One could make that argument about any gas gun and tell you to get a bolt gun. No one is going to argue the advantages of the AR platform in terms of accuracy and no one is expects to get precision accuracy out of an AK. Why try to get some sort of accuracy out AK? For the hell of it, thats why. MedCpt, have you ever considered getting a Vepr?
 

Afghanvet09

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whats better coke or pepsi........better/best is relative also an accurate ak is like military intelligence an oxymoron buy an ar and shut up

Have you seen the SGL 21-94 video link earlier in this thread? The guy shot a 10 round 3 MOA group with an AKM. You don't think that's on par with standard issue M16/AR15? Rack grade M16 shoots about 3 MOA, I know first hand. I know AR's are accurate, got several and here's my SDMR @ 500 yards, 5 round 7-1/2" extreme spread group, no optic, no match ammo and just irons. Advance video to 2:23 for actual shooting, other stuff is set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RidexLXeEA
 
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Afghanvet09

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One could make that argument about any gas gun and tell you to get a bolt gun. No one is going to argue the advantages of the AR platform in terms of accuracy and no one is expects to get precision accuracy out of an AK. Why try to get some sort of accuracy out AK? For the hell of it, thats why. MedCpt, have you ever considered getting a Vepr?

Handled a lot of eastern bloc AKM's RPK's in theatre and that's where my interest started. Afghans abuse and neglect all their stuff, but had old beat up soviet AK's (lot of chinese ones too) still running like a top. In 30 + years will the M16's hold up as well without good logistics, support, and in those conditions? - I doubt it. I am very familar with the AKM, AK47/74and know little of VEPR's. Large part of the traditional AK appeal is reliability, availability of parts, mags, ammo pricing, ease of maintenance, few parts to break, etc..and those are big factors for me. A gun that won't shoot jammed up is just a club.
 
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K-tech

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All VEPR's are built off an RPK reciever and have different furniture. I've seen them get 1-2 MOA groups in 7.62x54, I would imagine that 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 would be as good or even better. I want a decent RPK 5.45x39 in the worst way but I'm not quite ready to part with both and arm and a leg for one; I've heard of guys getting groups with those too.
 

sav338lapua

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MedCpt, you and i i think have had the same experiences just different times and places.
you know i a good friend of mine called me the other day and he was quite confused at what a friend of his was telling him about his son and his sons friends.
soon as they got back home from being in country they went and bought or ordered and AK. he said to his friend were they buying them because their cheep and ammo's cheap??? his friend said no. they bought them because they said it would never let them down as long as they took care of it. i say nuff said i will depend on mine and have for 30+ years.
 

Graham

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This Thread would be more interesting if someone asked who made the best Wal Mart scope in a vacuum-packed plastic package.
 

Direct_Fire

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I heard Red Jacket made a "1000 yard AK" so it must be pretty accurate, maybe we could ask them.......JUST KIDDING!!!

Dave
 

Afghanvet09

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AK barrel makers Green Mountain (thanks marinepmi), ESS, and Montana Rifleman (just bought by Remington last month). Here's an ESS barreled Waffen Werks AK74, 200 yard target, 7n6 5.45x39 ammo, ~13 rounds quick fire, from rest. The ruler is 6 inches. Regarding Montana rifleman barrels, go to 18" SPR barrel thread and look at the ~$160 DPMS barrel target. Poster on that thread said possibly a Montana rifleman barrel. I guess now that Remington has bought them getting one of their ak barrels might be a problem now. Not sure if MR ever sold barrels directly to public either.

 
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Afghanvet09

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I don't reload but when I see groups like that shooter error comes mind but also this is com bloc sardine can ammo. I am sure their QA/QC is not the best and may also contribute
 

Graham

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Was it shooter error or the com bloc sardine can ammo? Here's a pic of my rifle and a group I shot with it:
IMG_2285.jpg
 

Afghanvet09

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Drinking so early in the day??

Was it shooter error or the com bloc sardine can ammo? Here's a pic of my rifle and a group I shot with it:


Seriously Graham, you have been trolling this thread since I posted. We get it that your not interested in the topic, ok? I'm going back to ignoring you like I do drunks, idiots and the mentally incompetent.

The thread is not about turning AK's into benchrest rifles. It's about getting the best accuracy out of a combat rifle. I like to shoot steel at 300 + yards. An 6 - 8 MOA AK won't cut it at those ranges and they are plentiful. What's the problem with asking members about their opinions on barrels? People do it on here daily.
 
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Graham

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I do like the Thread, but probably not for the same reason that you do. I guess you were blinded enough by the message that you missed the point of my post.

Sniper's Hide: For the Serious Tac.... Oh, nevermind.
 

phreakmode

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The inacuracy comes from the large moving mass in the gas piston, AK-74's are more accurate than AKMs for this reason.
 

Afghanvet09

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I do like the Thread, but probably not for the same reason that you do. I guess you were blinded enough by the message that you missed the point of my post.

Sniper's Hide: For the Serious Tac.... Oh, nevermind.

SH started out bolt guns and no section IIRC on gas guns. Discussions range far and wide on firearm topics, with squeezing the most accuracy out of what ever platform you own or finding the best being a common interest. I like SH because it's mostly LE and military professionals, and I value the opinions of the highly experienced on here. I never reinvent the wheel, somebody's probably already figured my problem out so just asking. I have a barreless kit and looking for a 4 MOA or better barrel and seeking opinions.
 

Afghanvet09

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The inacuracy comes from the large moving mass in the gas piston, AK-74's are more accurate than AKMs for this reason.

Agree and I think also the AK74 muzzle brake makes a difference. You see these brakes on several of the 7.62 AK100 series.
 

K-tech

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I do like the Thread, but probably not for the same reason that you do. I guess you were blinded enough by the message that you missed the point of my post.

Sniper's Hide: For the Serious Tac.... Oh, nevermind.

Don't you have something better to do besides troll? Oh wait, judging by the number of posts you've made you don't. The man is just to build a decent AK capable of 3-4 moa, stop busting his chops over it.
 

sav338lapua

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medcpt leave that -you know what to his own dreams-says gunny sargent but i dont even think the marines would keep a guy like that.
lets move on with our great thread about a subject we are interested in.
 

sav338lapua

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runrunner a rack m-16 shoots about 3 moa. it really depends on what its being used for as to how accurate it needs to be. there are alot of dead guys out there been shot dead at 200 yards by 4 moa guns. this is the real world not that one you live in at your range with a nice bench to shoot off of and nobody shooting back at you. oh and i said you but i wasnt meaning or refering to you as you personally ok.
any way i just put this romanian psl together a couple a weeks ago and it shot less than 1.5 moa at 100 yards right off the bat with czech light ball silver tip which is ok stuff but old and your typical com bloc lot load. i have some really good hornady match 174 gr. hpbt's and some 150 grain sst's made by hornady i bet the groups drop in half with this good stuff????



 

Graham

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lets move on with our great thread about a subject we are interested in.
Arf.com is just down the hall.

No need to reinvent the wheel: Bravo18 has been there and done that. I suggest you start there and THEN post pics from your basement.
 
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AutoEssentials

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3-4 moa is not good accuracy if you are talking about precision rifle. The OP is just trying to make the best of accuracy in a platform that has a different purpose. An AK does have legendary reliability. It is easy to understand that anybody would want any of their guns to have the best possible accuracy, regardless of how it compares to other weapons.
 

sav338lapua

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i live in ohio graham you need your a@# kicked just like your football team???
you really are a nasty guy arent you.
well thats ok cause i am not going to acknowledge you any more any ways LOL
 

Graham

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i live in ohio graham you need your a@# kicked just like your football team???
Wow: 91 posts and already using a computer to make threats of violence. In Michigan that's a four year felony. Are you sure that you are even permitted to own firearms?
 

cal50

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MOA from an AK... At what distance are these 1" groups possible?


Using my Arsenal AK and Lapua ammo I was able to get 1 1/2" @ 100 yards.

The biggest down fall for AK accuracy is poor quality ammo ( bullets ) coupled with crude iron sights and a short sight radius. Using good ammo and optics ( side rail) most decent AK's will do 3 MOA at 100.
Its not a good infantry rifle for doing distance but for minute of person fast shooting and reliability it does its job well. I like my SIG 556's rifles a lot and its an AK at heart in .223


 

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I believe the most accurate AK barrel is the hammer forged Austrian barrel made by Steyr. These were used in the Bulgarian Milled AKs model SLR-95 and maybe SLR-96? Unfortunately I don't think you can get just the barrel, as you need for your building purposes. Arsenal imported the SLR-95, so it would be worth an email to them to see if they have any Steyr barrels in the parts bin somewhere.
 

sav338lapua

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well i guess there are a few ak barrel makers around here after all. cal50 your right its usually the ammo. i see rifles that are really mediocre come alive with good ammo.
 

BCP

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    The high standard AK barrels are probably the best but no idea where to get one. Brownells used to have them but not in stock right now.