Yo Dude, not terribly often. I’ve been shooting my oldest one (40X, same spring material) for 15 years without any issues. The extractors are harder than the brass rim, so they wear incredibly slowly. Not too much to worry about.
MB
Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
MB
Quite frankly that's what I was thinking - just had to ask with all the "noise" currently. Appreciate the response!
Since I have both the single shot and the magizine fed rifles I probably should look into spare parts and special tools to keep them running . Thanks again Mike for sharing with us
My single shot is left bolt right e xtraction/ loading port. The magizine fed is left bolt left extraction / loading port
My single shot is left bolt right e xtraction/ loading port. The magizine fed is left bolt left extraction / loading port
Yo Dude, I'm actually not selling parts, but instead, offering them up in exchange for an address so I can ship them. I'm going through a long list of PMs today to see what I have for those that have reached out, and if I have it, I'll circle back via PM and get your address.
MB
I'm shipping out two small boxes today, but this empties the parts bins. I'm out of Gen 1 parts and all I have left is some prototype Gen 1.2 and Gen 2 stuff that were test parts....nothing I'd want to put in long-term service. I don't have any extra action wrenches.
MB
MB
Not exactly, no one sells a complete 360 other than Vudoo because no one makes a complete ready to go action.
Mike, My comments were regarding the statement about Vudoo being the middle man or drop shipper, Vudoo produced(made available) complete, ready-to-go actions for the market, no one else did at the time including MPA or myself.
I think it’s just crazy that how much is all of a sudden is coming to light…
Pretty sure we are all surprised that they were not making any parts. They were building rifles.
So just like pretty much all other custom gun builders.
Someone will start building them again in short order I am sure.
The manufacture of the action isn’t gonna just not make them when they sell like they do.
Pretty sure we are all surprised that they were not making any parts. They were building rifles.
So just like pretty much all other custom gun builders.
Someone will start building them again in short order I am sure.
The manufacture of the action isn’t gonna just not make them when they sell like they do.
If the manufacturer doesn’t own the IP they won’t be making them. At least, not “as is” without some changes. Then again, that might be my optimism and faith in folks showing… they may keep making them and decide it’s cheaper to litigate. Though for the size of the market, I can’t see that being a good business decision given what legal fees can run!
In a second reading, perhaps you meant Vudoo would keep manufacturing them- regardless of who machines them. If so, I would agree.
Ok, I hear you, but let's try it this way.
- Vudoo doesn't make any of the parts, in-house, that they use to ASSEMBLE a complete, ready-to-go, action
- Instead, Vudoo pays some number of vendors to make the parts listed on the Bill of Materials (BOM) that make up the total assembly that we're referring to as an action
- The total of the parts listed on the BOM are referred to as the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS), which does not include burdened and non-burdened costs (labor, power, tooling, general overhead, etc.) So, let's say the COGS is $1000 and the retail price of the completed assembly is $1400
- What might one think the likelihood is that the burdened and non-burdened costs eat significantly into the $400 margin at the retail price?
- Now, let's assume that an action assembly is sold to a company that's going to create a product using this assembly; would they pay retail price? No. So let's assume, for conversation sake, dealer price is minus 20%, that leaves a $120 margin, which I'm quite certain is going to be eaten away by burdened and non-burdened costs
- So, is it fair to assume there could be sales at a loss? Well, based on the tax returns I have copies of, absolutely
Hope this helps....
MB
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This is going to be a HBS case study...this is actually incredibly good insight into small-business and start-ups.
Better have VOLUME w those number per unit. But I don’t think it works that way w a precision product.
Exactly, volume can be an illusion due to the fact that revenue costs money. If one can't recover costs at lower volumes, it'll be worse at greater volume as the cash can't be turned over quickly enough. There are exceptions to this, but typically, the exceptions are industry specific; MIM/injection molding, most things quoted per piece, etc. More complex assemblies that are heavily sourced by supply chain are not prime volume targets. Especially with rising costs due to raw material increases, obsolescense that requires sustaining engineering that pushes a revision, WIP, finished goods inventory, and so on.
MB
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This 100%, I am sourcing action components and assembling them currently, the COGS plus my very minimal overhead burden leaves very little room for suppling actions to dealers (I am still in my garage and have no payroll employees). No way VGW was operating in a sustainable manner. I suspected VGW had underlying solvency issues after our proposed redesign of their billet magazine went belly up (I later found out this occurred in parallel to the sale of VGW) The lack of initiative they put forward to meet the needs of the community is what initially lead me to design my magazine. It has been a pleasure to read through your insightful comments and I have learned a lot from this thread. You created an entire genre of rifles that will truly cement your legacy in the industry
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For a measly $2mil consulting fee, you can be the next Vudoo Gunworks.
We are not currently looking for any defacto investors, thanks for the offer though! All jokes aside we have a profound respect for what VGW has accomplished. We just need to sit back and see how this story unfolds. As a very small player in this industry, I am just trying to listen more and talk less!
Someone asked if anyone was at the NRA Show this weekend to see if Vudoo was there. Here is their booth.
They are obviously all so busy moving they couldn't make the show
That doesn’t bode well for the company at all. There is some cost involved with these booths when you reserve them. I guess the new CEO couldn’t be bothered to fly a few guys out there to staff the booth because he let everyone go…
The booth rental is small change compared to travel expense, shipping for product samples and booth (and return of all that at end of the show) and the cost of paying the crews at the venue to move crates around with the forklift. I was floored the first time the venue people charged $250 to come plug in an extension cord at one particular show venue!
The company I worked for sent well above ONE MILLION $$ for the SHOT Show every year and almost as much to be at NRA, SCI, NBS and Sport Inc. (each)
I feel for the ones that put deposits down or completely paid for a build that they’ll never see. Shit like that makes me sick to my stomach
Interesting, I installed Malwarebytes software last week, and just noticed it was blocking the website due to phishing.
This thread just became much more interesting for me…. Finally found a 360 for a second build…! 
This was supposed to be a cheap winter hobby!!! WTF happened !?
Winter is over dude! Welcome to Spring! Time to build up the 2nd one at twice the price! Wait until summer ammo cost burn…
MB,
On DEFTI and the 9 Twist Barrels…
I’m confused with some of your statements and would prefer to not venture up any dead end roads…
Were you implying that 9 twist was a bad idea, or was there pushback from the rest of Vudoo? Or did they think it was a good direction and your experience said otherwise?
I followed that original thread closely as I have interest in pushing beyond established boundaries, but don’t have unlimited funds for long distance rimfire.
On DEFTI and the 9 Twist Barrels…
I’m confused with some of your statements and would prefer to not venture up any dead end roads…
Were you implying that 9 twist was a bad idea, or was there pushback from the rest of Vudoo? Or did they think it was a good direction and your experience said otherwise?
I followed that original thread closely as I have interest in pushing beyond established boundaries, but don’t have unlimited funds for long distance rimfire.
Yo Dude, great question and this is a topic I now have no issue speaking to openly. But first, I'll issue an apology (@grauhanen and others) to those that really wanted me to discuss data, and I refused as it was during the "course of battle," so to speak.
So, I'll start by saying, the fast twist project, in total, was never about just the barrels. The project in total was about the overall system, which is what the V-22 platform was designed to be. The V-22 was never just the action (@David Lott and @jelrod1 get this).
When faster twist rates came up in the beginning, Bryan Litz and I discussed it while at an event in TX. As you can imagine, it was a great conversation and Bryan said, as he always has, a number of things I was intrigued by. The majority of it I agreed with and some of it I didn't. But, anyway, the path started. Unfortunately, a parallel path started by the sales guy in St. George, one thing led to another, and they built a couple rifles using Bartlein blanks, but they had no idea what the math said and no way to even do the math. The rifles were typical 18", threaded muzzle builds and of course, they shot horribly. So, there was an immediate turn off in St. George with no ability to envision what it meant to seize an incredible opportunity.
However, I stayed on the path, developed initial data and built a rifle in my lab with a nine twist, 22" finished length with a non-threaded muzzle. Aside from the nine twist, I also had blanks made at twist rates between nine and 16, all Ace blanks. Not that it's an Ace vs Bartlein debate, as the brand isn't relevant, but I could get the Ace blanks pretty quickly and personally, it was my favorite of the blanks we were using at the time.
Anyway, my initial thoughts on the nine twist performance using the parameters that the math said should be optimal; I was highly pleased. So, I took rifles down to another NRA World Championship and the nine twist was one of them. I told no one that there were prototype parts in the nine twist gun (more than just the barrel and I said nothing about the faster twist rate), including Paul. However, I sat behind a spotting scope over the course of the entire event (I wouldn't let anyone else sit behind the scope) and called impacts on target at 200 yards and beyond and plotted data between the nine twist gun and 16 twist guns. The collective group sizes were starkly different over the course of more than 5000 rounds down range.
Following that event, I handed the rifle to Daniel Horner and he used it in classes to further the collection of data. His findings agreed with mine. However, I noted some interesting characteristics....the greater variable was a combination of ambient temperature and increased angular velocity of the projectile (remember, the projectile hardness is pretty low on the BHN scale). But, this variation validated the need for system focus, not a barrel focus. And just so everyone understands, the characteristics I noted were weird deviations in group size at distance, but based on noting conditions, one could easily detect repeatability. Perfect!
So, now, next steps were planned to focus on measures that would bring the entirety of the system into alignment, which Paul had no capacity to understand and its why I started sharing with the community. As far as Paul was concerned, the project was a failure after the wrong length barrels with threaded muzzles (I think most know how I feel about threaded muzzles on a 22LR using a 1/2-28 thread) were used.
Anyway, I made a trip down to a test range to gather more data, mostly to compare TOF between the nine twist and other twist rates. Two guys from Lothar Walther met me there, as they were part of the plan and brought rifles with them with 12 twist barrels. And, Ivan Wells met me there, as this project had Custom Shop all over it (I still have the pictures of the shooting somewhere.). We did a TOF comparison using nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels and, from a system focus perspective, the nine twist was far more promising as it related to truly advancing what it meant to shoot 22LR. The 12 twist was marginally better than 16, as was the 13 I tested prior. Using a 12, 13 etc., is nothing more than maintaining status quo and accepting things related to construed conventional wisdom.
But, based on what my highly calibrated crystal ball was saying, I started clamming up and further disengaging from a group that had obviously forgotten who and what we said we were. In the beginning, it was "Envision And Create The Exceptional," but what it turned into was a real drag and it was obvious to this community.
I'll close with this. In thinking about all this stuff, I'm not sour or angry. Instead, I'm thankful and at peace that things happened to me and for me that separated me from what was dangerous and unhealthy. What was meant to be, will be.
I hope this answers your questions and clears up any confusion.
MB
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Thank you @RAVAGE88 for this very informative post. I remember closely following the initial post and interest in the 1:9 barrel "saga" but you would only let a little bit squeak out. I remember how cryptic some of your posts were in answering questions at the time. This really helps fill in those gaps and gives me/us a better understanding of everything involved.
Not by any hard and fast rule because the environment is the largest of all variables when it comes to spitting a light, lead projectile into the atmosphere. And by the way, one lot number of 22LR ammo shoots differently from the next, and so on, which is why it was always about the system.
But, what was so awesome is, the community was hungry for it and the barrel and ammo makers were ready to jump in, and largely, all three put the throttle down. Guys in the community started building rifles, barrel makers were contributing to the testing and lathe turned bullets were on the scene....people were working together to figure all this out FOR THE COMMUNITY.
But what I found to be interesting and highly disappointing at the same time was, P&J were pissed that the phone was ringing in St. George and people were asking about the fast twist. They couldn't answer questions and had no intention of asking me anything about it. And sadly, all of this was happening while they were saying that Vudoo needed to get the sales numbers up....I'll stop there.
MB
Not that I would consider to be negative, but my involvement was to drive the project for the legitimate advancement of what it is we all enjoy. That's the reason "Vudoo Labs" existed (Vudoo Labs, Inc., dba, Vudoo Gun Works, LLC).
What I will call a negative though, is actually my fault. Guys were building rifles because they were highly interested in acquiring a competitive edge and I let everyone know that the barrel would need to be at least 22" finished length. Because I clammed up, the community was then without help and it created a hardship for guys trying to figure it out.
This became apparent to me when I was contacted by a guy with a 10 twist, 22" barrel and it wasn't shooting well. I met him at the range to help figure it out and my first noted issue was a 1/2"-28 threaded muzzle with a thread protector. I remained quiet until after he shot some groups and after seeing them, I called his attention to the threaded muzzle.
He's a machinist, so none of this was difficult for him. I asked him to go back to his shop and use a gauge pin to test for a constriction at the thread relief groove. Sure enough, it was there as it is in all Vudoo barrels. So I had him cut the threads off and re-crown his barrel. After doing so, he reported back that his groups closed up considerably and consistency went up. He was then winning matches with that rifle.
I say all what I said above to offer an apology to this community. I shouldn't have clammed up and Vudoo as a whole should have been smarter at recognizing something that could've been good for everyone.
MB
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I see, the objective was to get some testing and experimentation going to see what improvements could be had rather than just status quo. It would take changes in bullet manufacturing, barrel design, etc to get improvements. Not something 1 person or 1 company could accomplish.
EXACTLY!! The project concept was designed to involve the entirety of the community. Not just smash it with a hammer and then expect it to be anything worthwhile.
MB
My 12T (not Voodoo) had very tight groups at 200+, but there were some more extreme flyers than 16T. I put that down to inconsistent 22LR projectiles. I run a 14T now that has extremely tight vertical at 100, although I have been unmotivated to burn ammo doing much testing at 200+ because for what I do, I’m happy with my results. Internet victory from spending my time and $$$ is not an attractive return for me. Barrels and ammo being provided is a different dynamic, but that is not the case for me.
That’s understandable. The point is that if everyone shares what they have learned doing some of these changes it will benefit everyone. Someone will take your information and iterate it to learn something new and hopefully share that again.
I had contemplated a faster twist than my normal 16 at one point but the more I read the more I realized that anything faster than a 13/14 twist is opening another can of worms. My next barrel I might do a 13/14 area twist and see.
Only another 100K rounds til this one’s got a legitimate need to swap, right?
“I want it now!” Isn’t a legitimate need? It was for Veruca Salt. lol
This sounds like... gasp... science. The pursuit of which oftentimes collides with... Greed. Ignorance. The latter all too often makes life easy for the former.
Another of the inevitable stories from the old guy, where pursuit of $$$$$ almost certainly hurt humankind.
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My best working years were spent with a privately-held pharmaceutical company whose scientists could pursue pretty much any research they chose. This led to breakthroughs in antiviral medicine, for which Drs. George Hitchings and Gertrude "Trudy" Elion won the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1988. To this day, ignorant people don't know how viruses work and make claims that would be pure funny if they weren't so sad and cost so many lives.
I still remember Dr. Elion and gaggles of other senior scientists playing bridge every day after lunch in the cafeteria.
Five years later, the company's governing board - wanting more money "for research" - took the company public. Two years after that, it got bought by a more profit-driven company. Five years after that , a company which defined "corporate greed" bought the merged company. It's a matter of record that, year after year, that company paid hundreds of millions of dollars to settle lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit.
As it seems to have been for you, Mike, the profit drive became a breaking point. Most of the globally-recognized scientists quickly left after it became clear that profit had become the ONLY priority. Dr. Elion stayed... but she didn't matter anymore. She was long past retirement age. Dr. Hitchings, still working at age 90, died a few years after the first corporate mugging. Her friends were gone. I still see her sitting in the dark back of the cafeteria, alone with her brown paper lunch bag, instead of up front by the big windows where her colleagues gathered before.
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Integrity. Intellect. Service. Concepts rare as diamonds in today's world.
I think it has been determined that diamonds are not so rare after all. And neither are people who exhibit integrity, intelligence, and service. It’s just that they don’t make public declarations about it. What you do hear all the time are the unintelligent, dishonest, takers trying to convince everyone else that they aren’t.
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