DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
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I've spoken a bit about my M5x DBM and described verbally the difference between the "x" and the de-facto standard M5, so I thought I'd show everyone what the "x" is all about.
Notice the circled protrusion with a blind hole that houses the Pre-Load Piston, and, in some stocks, material will need to be relieved to allow the fitment of the protrusion.
One will note that in the DDG Lot Test Fixture, there's no "wall" of material between the mag box feature and trigger inlet area of the stock. If one has a stock with a wall of material there, simply remove enough of the material to allow the protrusion on the DBM. Everything else about the "x" is all standard M5.
The only other area to be revised is on the bottom of the receiver (rimfire and centerfire alike), just ahead of the trigger pocket. A small, blind depth plunge with a 1/4" end mill creates a pocket that allows the vertical movement of the piston when the magazine is inserted into the DBM.
All of my new actions will be set up from the jump with the features that accommodate the Pre-Load Piston.
MB
Notice the circled protrusion with a blind hole that houses the Pre-Load Piston, and, in some stocks, material will need to be relieved to allow the fitment of the protrusion.
One will note that in the DDG Lot Test Fixture, there's no "wall" of material between the mag box feature and trigger inlet area of the stock. If one has a stock with a wall of material there, simply remove enough of the material to allow the protrusion on the DBM. Everything else about the "x" is all standard M5.
The only other area to be revised is on the bottom of the receiver (rimfire and centerfire alike), just ahead of the trigger pocket. A small, blind depth plunge with a 1/4" end mill creates a pocket that allows the vertical movement of the piston when the magazine is inserted into the DBM.
All of my new actions will be set up from the jump with the features that accommodate the Pre-Load Piston.
MB
Today's question: Skirt or no skirt?
Todd McBee sparked a few thoughts the other day and while I have a sample of the DDG M5x being 3D printed by my long-time friend and fellow pilot, Josh Kunz at Patriot Valley Arms, I figured I'd toss this question out to gather a few opinions about a skirt that rides the three-degree stock line, a la, the MDT DBM.
I've noted a few advantages by having a skirt there, the greater of them being the addition of material allows for a more prominent flare for the opening, which aids in allowing seamless mag changes.
At the moment, I've dealt with this without the skirt in the DDG M5 and M5x DBMs I'm about to release, but there are some who seem to like it. I'm not one copy someone else's product, so, just how important is the skirt to you guys?
MB
Todd McBee sparked a few thoughts the other day and while I have a sample of the DDG M5x being 3D printed by my long-time friend and fellow pilot, Josh Kunz at Patriot Valley Arms, I figured I'd toss this question out to gather a few opinions about a skirt that rides the three-degree stock line, a la, the MDT DBM.
I've noted a few advantages by having a skirt there, the greater of them being the addition of material allows for a more prominent flare for the opening, which aids in allowing seamless mag changes.
At the moment, I've dealt with this without the skirt in the DDG M5 and M5x DBMs I'm about to release, but there are some who seem to like it. I'm not one copy someone else's product, so, just how important is the skirt to you guys?
MB
More flare is nice for mag changes for sure, but I care more about the material in front of the magazine. A longer barricade stop in front to protect the magazine is more important to me.
Because we are discussing bottom metal. Is this protrusion (name?) required? Looking to learn & understand in greater detail its purpose and if it’s worth adding
Thanks,
Doc
Gen 1 and the early Gen 2 were two piece receivers and there are two issued patents for my design. This is how I was able to eliminate the lug ways propagating the full length of the receiver bore, like the 40X Rimfire. Shortly into Gen 2 production, the receiver became one-piece.
The bolt handle is friction welded to the bolt body. There's a machine that spins a blank (that becomes the bolt body) at 4400 RPM while the handle blank is held stationary. As the bolt body blank spins, it is moved toward the handle blank until the point of contact. The friction creates heat and welding of the material occurs. What stops the spinning is the adhesion of the two parts.
This goes back to the early production of Phoenix Machine and Defiance Machine bolt blanks prior to the falling out between Glen Harrison and Ken Frankel, resulting in Defiance Machine bringing all their production in-house.
MB
It's not required and I have removed it from my DBMs. I believe it originally appeared on the early Surgeon DBMs.
MB
Mornin, All,
I haven't updated here for a while as things have become incredibly busy. All updates for Parts Kits, Receiver Wrenches, Lot Test Fixtures, DBMs and new action designs are occurring in my FB group.
Thank you to all who provided answers to my questions about DBM features. As has always been the case, I watch and listen to this community and execute what I see and hear in community driven design and development. What you see below is the result of your answers; a PRS/NRL inspired DBM with the M5 inlet. I normally wouldn't splash this and other stuff so early, but copiers will be copiers no matter when it makes it to public view.
Pictured is the full blown M5x with a true flared mag well, Pre-Load Piston and some other things I'm not showing or speaking about yet. There's also a Mini-ARCA for a Barricade Stop that's available in numerous thicknesses. Putting the Barri-Stop this far back allows one to get the rifle further forward, to the balance point.
The line of DBMs is cooking along in parallel and will be available soon.
MB
I haven't updated here for a while as things have become incredibly busy. All updates for Parts Kits, Receiver Wrenches, Lot Test Fixtures, DBMs and new action designs are occurring in my FB group.
Thank you to all who provided answers to my questions about DBM features. As has always been the case, I watch and listen to this community and execute what I see and hear in community driven design and development. What you see below is the result of your answers; a PRS/NRL inspired DBM with the M5 inlet. I normally wouldn't splash this and other stuff so early, but copiers will be copiers no matter when it makes it to public view.
Pictured is the full blown M5x with a true flared mag well, Pre-Load Piston and some other things I'm not showing or speaking about yet. There's also a Mini-ARCA for a Barricade Stop that's available in numerous thicknesses. Putting the Barri-Stop this far back allows one to get the rifle further forward, to the balance point.
The line of DBMs is cooking along in parallel and will be available soon.
MB
Ok, after yesterday's post showing the DDG M5x DBM System, I've received tons of questions about my Pre-Load Piston (PLP). So, I figured I'd give a y'all a better look at what it is, what it does, and how one makes it a part of his/her shooting platform.
As one can see, when the magazine is inserted, it forces the PLP upward by acting on a surface on the tab of the PLP. The PLP is under pressure from an internal spring and this pressure acts upon the top surface of the magazine.
This pressure forces the magazine downward, trapping it between the tab on the PLP and the magazine release. At this point, the magazine is not free to bounce up and down and it has resistance to moving about the lateral axis (the magazine can't tilt forward and down).
So, how does one make the M5x fit his/her stock? As one can see from the attached photo of the inletting in a McMillan stock, I've colored the area in red that needs to be removed. Thanks to four cups of coffee, I colored the area a little larger than it actually needs to be, but one can easily get an idea of how simple it is to fit the M5x in his/her stock.
The DDG M5 DBM drops right in without any revisions.
Because the PLP needs a bit of headroom to move upward when the magazine is inserted, a small revision is made to the receiver by pushing the forward wall of the trigger pocket forward. I've attached a 3D assembly below that I posted recently, and one can see the small area in question. I don't recommend this revision be performed with a hand mill (Dremel), but instead, a manual mill like a Bridgeport or in a CNC. It's actually quite a simple operation.
There's one additional feature that's part of the full-on system (Magazine, M5 and M5x DBMs, New Rimfire Bolt Action) that I'm not showing yet that will make all this make more sense when one sees it. But the goals are to continue with envisioning and creating the exceptional to continue to push the boundaries of increasing accuracy and overall performance of the Rimfire Shooting System.
Hope this helps and feel free to keep the questions coming.
MB
As one can see, when the magazine is inserted, it forces the PLP upward by acting on a surface on the tab of the PLP. The PLP is under pressure from an internal spring and this pressure acts upon the top surface of the magazine.
This pressure forces the magazine downward, trapping it between the tab on the PLP and the magazine release. At this point, the magazine is not free to bounce up and down and it has resistance to moving about the lateral axis (the magazine can't tilt forward and down).
So, how does one make the M5x fit his/her stock? As one can see from the attached photo of the inletting in a McMillan stock, I've colored the area in red that needs to be removed. Thanks to four cups of coffee, I colored the area a little larger than it actually needs to be, but one can easily get an idea of how simple it is to fit the M5x in his/her stock.
The DDG M5 DBM drops right in without any revisions.
Because the PLP needs a bit of headroom to move upward when the magazine is inserted, a small revision is made to the receiver by pushing the forward wall of the trigger pocket forward. I've attached a 3D assembly below that I posted recently, and one can see the small area in question. I don't recommend this revision be performed with a hand mill (Dremel), but instead, a manual mill like a Bridgeport or in a CNC. It's actually quite a simple operation.
There's one additional feature that's part of the full-on system (Magazine, M5 and M5x DBMs, New Rimfire Bolt Action) that I'm not showing yet that will make all this make more sense when one sees it. But the goals are to continue with envisioning and creating the exceptional to continue to push the boundaries of increasing accuracy and overall performance of the Rimfire Shooting System.
Hope this helps and feel free to keep the questions coming.
MB
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While I applaud the piston and have absolutely no experience with it, my experience with vudoo mag failure has neen the rear mag tab hooking into the mag release acts as a pivot point allowing the mag front side to dip down when the rifle is jammed into a bag or barrier prop.
This was partially fixed by the industry offering longer “ file to fit” mag releases that get the mag up closer to the action with less pivoting. The real problem is the mags are physically smaller than the m5 pattern magwell, allowing enough room to pivot. That is why people stick velcro or something else the the mag to take up this wiggle room and keep the mag vertical.
I have tried installing set screws with rounded bottoms in both the front and the rear of the m5 magwell to eliminate this slop. The problem with getting a perfect rock free fit then induced a non drop- free situation where the mag would hang up without physically grabbing it out. I prefer the mag to drop free by itself , so I currently am just using longer mag releases in my vudoos for competition.
These pics are a good 5-6 years old, but are still relevant
This was partially fixed by the industry offering longer “ file to fit” mag releases that get the mag up closer to the action with less pivoting. The real problem is the mags are physically smaller than the m5 pattern magwell, allowing enough room to pivot. That is why people stick velcro or something else the the mag to take up this wiggle room and keep the mag vertical.
I have tried installing set screws with rounded bottoms in both the front and the rear of the m5 magwell to eliminate this slop. The problem with getting a perfect rock free fit then induced a non drop- free situation where the mag would hang up without physically grabbing it out. I prefer the mag to drop free by itself , so I currently am just using longer mag releases in my vudoos for competition.
These pics are a good 5-6 years old, but are still relevant
Yessir, your info is accurate and relevant, but the data actually goes a bit deeper. Additionally, the legacy magazines that became V-22 magazines were of the proper dimensions and designed to work optimally in my original DBM, which was dimensioned off the actual Accuracy International prints, no different than the BO M5.
Outside of those two DBMs, the movement based on pressure from a bag and a multitude of other feeding issues are symptoms of greater issues that have nothing to do with the magazine at all. In fact, "grind-to-length" mag releases were a product of poor execution, which again, had nothing to do with the magazine.
Lastly, the magazine should never be flush with the bottom of the receiver. There's a highly specific dimension that the top of the magazine should be from the lower radius for optimal function.
MB
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