Rifle Scopes Burris XTR3!!!

[koshkin]

I will go through the pictures and do a proper write-up later, but the short summary is that I liked what I saw. Given that the two scopes I saw were prototypes, I will obviously wait until I can get my hands on a production version, but these look extremely promising. Same for the new reticle. I think it will do really well for Burris. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow either here or via Instagram or both.

The turrets fell very similar to XTR2 which I am perfectly comfortable with, but the image quality has an entirely different feel to it. These should give anything in their price range a run for the money and then some. Time will tell, of course.

ILya

 

[vol375]

Thanks for the updates! I’m interested.

 

[lte82]

The turrets fell very similar to XTR2

ILya

Sort of disappointing to me. I was hoping for a little more tactile like other scopes in it's price range. BUT, if they have the glass sorted and FOV is as good as they say, and the reticle is useful, it sounds like it could be pretty nice.

 

[koshkin]

Sort of disappointing to me. I was hoping for a little more tactile like other scopes in it's price range. BUT, if they have the glass sorted and FOV is as good as they say, and the reticle is useful, it sounds like it could be pretty nice.

You and I have different experience with XTR2 turrets. The ones I have tried had nice tactile feel.

ILya

 

[Renomd]

I will go through the pictures and do a proper write-up later, but the short summary is that I liked what I saw. Given that the two scopes I saw were prototypes, I will obviously wait until I can get my hands on a production version, but these look extremely promising. Same for the new reticle. I think it will do really well for Burris. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow either here or via Instagram or both.

The turrets fell very similar to XTR2 which I am perfectly comfortable with, but the image quality has an entirely different feel to it. These should give anything in their price range a run for the money and then some. Time will tell, of course.

ILya

Thank you for doing the evaluation! Would love to hear your impression on glass comparison between other high end scopes. Again thank you ILya!

 

[Subwrx300]

You and I have different experience with XTR2 turrets. The ones I have tried had nice tactile feel.

ILya

Ditto for me. In fact, I went with the XTR2 2 years ago specifically BECAUSE of the turret feel (and other specs. They feel almost exactly like my Gen 1 ATACR 5-25.

 

[koshkin]

Thank you for doing the evaluation! Would love to hear your impression on glass comparison between other high end scopes. Again thank you ILya!

To be fair, until we see production units we really can not say anything authoritative about image quality. The prototypes looked really good. As I said, I think they will give anything under $2k a run for their money and maybe more.

The smaller 3.3-18x50 XTR3, especially, since there really isn't that much competition in its price range for that configuration. The larger 5.4-30x56 model has more direct competition from the likes of Cronus and Stryker, so it remains to be seen. It is definitely one of the nicer eyepiece designs I have seen lately.

 

[Basher]

Based on that reticle photo, I'm sold! Maybe I won't need to save for a NF Mil-XT afterall...

 

[koshkin]

It is a thoroughly modern reticle. I think a 20 mrad tree is a little excessive, but it is better than it going all the way down to the edge of the image.

 

[D_TROS]

Ditto for me. In fact, I went with the XTR2 2 years ago specifically BECAUSE of the turret feel (and other specs. They feel almost exactly like my Gen 1 ATACR 5-25.

I wasnt a huge fan of the XTR2 clicks when compared to TT or S&B or Minox. For what they were, I was very impressed tho, workable, repeatable clicks. I really LOVED the old steiner clicks everyone claimed were "mushy". I nvr understood the noise made about clicks. Does it track?? boom done.

The new knobs are larger dia and the tenth spacing is further apart, both of which I strongly pushed for which made for great knobs. Im not joking when I say that using this scope at a match with over 400 rounds down range in the last couple weeks, I have a new favorite knob. My old favorite was the GenII Razor. XTR3 knobs are very close to those in every regard from feel to spacing EXCEPT for my favorite aspect of the XTR3 knobs, the oscillating tick marks Absolutely love them.

To be fair, until we see production units we really can not say anything authoritative about image quality. The prototypes looked really good. As I said, I think they will give anything under $2k a run for their money and maybe more.

....

That's how I feel. Don't want to say the glass is the new epic savior of the sub $2k world, but it def has a different feel and "glow" if you will. I cant put my finger on it. Like I said in my 3-oh-H8 thread, maybe its the FOV making it brighter, combined with better glass is like a whole new world. haha.

Cool to see the tree retc shown. I cant wait to shoot it and see how it compares to my Minox MR4. There are some really cool features in that retc.


Regards,
DT

 

[Subwrx300]

It is a thoroughly modern reticle. I think a 20 mrad tree is a little excessive, but it is better than it going all the way down to the edge of the image.

That is awesome! I mocked up a NF MOAR reticle that used similar open space to allow subtensions to .5 MOA. Can't wait to see the moa version!

There version will be awesome if similar to the mil version.

 

[lte82]

You and I have different experience with XTR2 turrets. The ones I have tried had nice tactile feel.

ILya

I had three of the 4-20's and still own a 2-10. Not disagreeing the clicks aren't tactile, but the tacticle click / turret rotation drag ratio is much lower than say a Schmidt, Razor 2, Tangent, etc. Reminds me more of a SWFA 5-20, or the older Steiners. I guess I wish the turret drag was less, and the detents were heavier.

 

[Craigm63]

these are really starting to interest me. Can’t wait to get behind one.

 

[Subwrx300]

The cool part about the open grid subtensions is that you can actually hold down to .05 mil. The smaller gap means that hash is .2, edge of hash is .15 and center of gap is .1 mil. Very nice for milling target size and/or precise wind holds.

 

[Glassaholic]

I don't see it unreasonable for a brand new product to be excluded from the discount programme.
If the scope is as good as they say it is they will likely struggle to meet demand without any form of discount.

It'll likely be included once the initial hype and demand has died down, which is understandable.

I didn't say it was unreasonable, I said it was unfortunate, very different words in this context. I understand why Burris would choose to do so, like Birddog said they will most likely sell out at Shot Show for the year. This is pretty much what happened with the AMG a few years ago and the XTR III has the "potential" to be the next coming of the AMG - true it is not fully made in the USA but nice that Colorado has a big part in assembly and it may not have quite the IQ of the AMG, but for its price point and rumored quality, it should be highly sought after for what it is.

 

[Glassaholic]

It is a thoroughly modern reticle. I think a 20 mrad tree is a little excessive, but it is better than it going all the way down to the edge of the image.

Thank you for sharing these ILya. I think Christmas tree fans will like it, I wish they would have opted for a floating center dot but the floating cross is so tiny it will probably act like a dot. I also like the tapered thick outer stadia reminiscent of March's reticle, it draws the eye toward the center when zoomed out. The larger hash marks between 4/5 mils on the horizontal remind me of the DEV-L from Sig, I'm assuming the size/height of those may have some ranging qualities to them? My favorite reticle right now is the MR4 and while I like the SKMR3 I don't like the solid tree lines, the MR4 uses dots which make it very unobtrusive, this SCR2 seems to be a combo of that and while it's not dots its small crosses which should prove to not be as intrusive as a full line filling up the space. Nicely done Burris. What's interesting is that Steiner was the first to release the SCR reticle which trickled down quickly into the Burris line, and now Burris is the first to turn it into a Christmas tree and I imagine it will trickle up to Steiner eventually.

 

[GeoffatBurris]

Hello everyone.
I had a great visit with Ilya yesterday. But am very glad our engineering director was there to answer his questions. The dude makes me feel like a marketing dummy. Which, you know, is true, but I still prefer to avoid feeling that way....

Still working on getting official published subtension info for SCR2 reticle. We just have not released it yet. Sky's saying next week at earliest.

On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.

We've got a few other items for SHOT, if you're going! I'm honestly pysched for the new PEPR mount with the Signature ring inserts. I know it's not as intereting as new reticles and scopes, but we sell a LOT of PEPR mounts, and this one will be very nice.

I do not get the tme to check in here very often, but you can reach me at [email protected]. Cheers!

 

[jda2631]

How about an early access pre-release buy for hide members???? (It was worth a shot....)

Can't wait to see this scope in the wild, looks like yall knocked it out of the park with it! I'm very excited.

 

[Genin]

On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.
!

I am grateful that your company does give us a mil discount so you won’t hear any complaints from me. I believe most of us understand and think the extra wait is worth the awesome savings we get through those programs

 

[koshkin]

Hello everyone.
I had a great visit with Ilya yesterday. But am very glad our engineering director was there to answer his questions. The dude makes me feel like a marketing dummy. Which, you know, is true, but I still prefer to avoid feeling that way....

Still working on getting official published subtension info for SCR2 reticle. We just have not released it yet. Sky's saying next week at earliest.

On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.

We've got a few other items for SHOT, if you're going! I'm honestly pysched for the new PEPR mount with the Signature ring inserts. I know it's not as intereting as new reticles and scopes, but we sell a LOT of PEPR mounts, and this one will be very nice.

I do not get the tme to check in here very often, but you can reach me at [email protected]. Cheers!

It was good to catch up with Geoff and other Burris/Steiner folks I met with.

As a general warning: while Geoff tries very hard to come off as a country bumpkin, I would not be giving those proclamations too much credence.

PEPR mount with inserts? You'd think that might be something you'd consider showing me...

ILya

 

[Desert Raven]

I agree with you @Birddog6424! The Pepr mount has been rock solid on my AR platform. So good to see Burris stepping up the game. Definitely will be getting an XTR 2 1-8 for my AR.

 

[BytorJr]

@Basher, you took the words right out of my mouth. This looks very good and if the glass is good I'm heavily leaning this vs the new NF myself. Competition is great isn't it!!!

 

[winniedonkey]

Very excited for this scope. I do enjoy my 4x20 and these new offering look awesome. Lets not forget something shooting friends, we have done a ton as shooters to help push the market/smart engineers to create better and better gear at liveable prices. I think we all deserve a beer or 12.

 

[beetroot]

I am by no means an expert, but I'm not super keen on the reticle.

Perhaps folk with more experience can explain why they have gone for crosses rather than dots like most other tree reticles uses?
I would've thought dots would be nicer to use.
Also whats up with the lengths of the hashes on the horizontal between 4 and 5 mil? I assume they have a specific purpose.

I feel like the Nightforce Mil-XT is more inline with what I'd want from the tree reticle.

 

[Subwrx300]

I am by no means an expert, but I'm not super keen on the reticle.

Perhaps folk with more experience can explain why they have gone for crosses rather than dots like most other tree reticles uses?
I would've thought dots would be nicer to use.
Also whats up with the lengths of the hashes on the horizontal between 4 and 5 mil? I assume they have a specific purpose.

I feel like the Nightforce Mil-XT is more inline with what I'd want from the tree reticle.

I can't speak to the entire reticle layout/design, but the open hash tree grid allows better visibility and better precision (see my post above discussing Benning able to hold to .05 mil precisely. Given the overall look with the center cross hair and open hash grid, I'd say it looks pretty dam useful.

The increasing lines on right and left side of reticle are .1 mil target size line's for UKD shooting/ estimating Target size.

I guess I'm confused how the Mil XT is substantially different from this (or vice versa) because both use .2 lines, 1 mil grid spacing, and alternating hashes on the main crosshair.

The hash vs dots is debatable but this is a good look, IMO. It's believe it's more of a precision issue: do you want a course hold or a fine hold?

To each their own. I'd love to have this reticle in any scope.

 

[sleeplz]

Whatsup with the mount with "inserts"? What is the advantage of having inserts instead of using a precision milled mount that is measured for the tube diameter?

 

[gconnoyer]

Whatsup with the mount with "inserts"? What is the advantage of having inserts instead of using a precision milled mount that is measured for the tube diameter?

Saves the company costs and makes a gimmicky product for your Big Box Store shooter.

 

[gconnoyer]

Really excited for these. The scopes look great, reticle looks great, and the ONLY thing ever wrong with the 2 was the terrible glass.

If these are built like the 2s, mechanically, there wont be much to compete at the price point

 

[Stickshift]

Whatsup with the mount with "inserts"? What is the advantage of having inserts instead of using a precision milled mount that is measured for the tube diameter?

The inserts allow you to add or subtract MOA cant without having to buy a new rail or mount. The feature is big with rimfire guys who run against the limit of their scope's elevation. I'm not sure how much use it has beyond the rimfire market though.

 

[MarinePMI]

The inserts allow you to add or subtract MOA cant without having to buy a new rail or mount. The feature is big with rimfire guys who run against the limit of their scope's elevation. I'm not sure how much use it has beyond the rimfire market though.

If my suspicions are correct, than the inserts would also allow you to transition from 30mm, 34mm, 35mm and 36mm tube scopes with just insert changes, versus buying a whole new mount. Or at least, I hope someone thought about that on this new design....

 

[Stickshift]

If my suspicions are correct, than the inserts would also allow you to transition from 30mm, 34mm, 35mm and 36mm tube scopes with just insert changes, versus buying a whole new mount. Or at least, I hope someone thought about that on this new design....

That didn't even occur to me, but yes, it would definitely be another use for the insert design. Combine that with the ability to add and subtract MOA, and you should have a very, very flexible system.

 

[MarinePMI]

That didn't even occur to me, but yes, it would definitely be another use for the insert design. Combine that with the ability to add and subtract MOA, and you should have a very, very flexible system.

I suppose that's why the company I work for, keeps me employed in the R&D department...(or as I call it "the Engineering Arts & Crafts department".)

 

[D_TROS]

Saves the company costs and makes a gimmicky product for your Big Box Store shooter.

Saves cost? you kidding rite? How in your mind do you see the extra machining for the inserts saving money or supplying the different inserts cheaper??
And gimmicky? when a company comes out with innovative products you shit on it without even see/using said product?

The insert mounts are a life saver when you need extra elevation or even when you need to center an optic to the side (both of which Ive done granted usually for hunting rifles or rimfire... And nobody makes an affordable one piece base so if they keep the price close to the original perpr mount, this could be a viable option for AR shooters.


The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.


Regards,
DT

 

[bigdaddydmd]

The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.

As do I. It would make things much easier to have a mount with a handful of inserts available that I can play around with cant and don't have to worry about trying to find 30mm, 34, 35mm rings depending on which scope I am trying to mount.

 

[gconnoyer]

Saves cost? you kidding rite? How in your mind do you see the extra machining for the inserts saving money or supplying the different inserts cheaper??
And gimmicky? when a company comes out with innovative products you shit on it without even see/using said product?

The insert mounts are a life saver when you need extra elevation or even when you need to center an optic to the side (both of which Ive done granted usually for hunting rifles or rimfire... And nobody makes an affordable one piece base so if they keep the price close to the original perpr mount, this could be a viable option for AR shooters.


The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.


Regards,
DT

They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.

 

[high right]

They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.

That's why alot of bench rest guys use em, cause their cheap and really aren't concerned with accuracy and repeatability.

 

[D_TROS]

They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.

Actually they will have to write new programs, redesign, repackage, relabel etc. This is a whole new product as far as I know. Its a one piece base. The older rings are 2 piece and came in a super nice hard plastic case with inserts. This mount wont fit in the old box more than likely. The only thing they can reuse is the inserts. THe old pepr came in a plastic wrapper.

I have used them. Im confused what isn't metal? The plastic inserts arnt, the rings are...? I have heard mixed reviews about some coming loose but I am convinced its due to improper set up. If you don't put the right inserts together, it wont hold the scope tight, let alone the torq specs that most do not own a torq wrench (match the proper pair of inserts).

The beauty of the design is the rings don't have to be machined to high tolerances. The plastic inserts allow lee way as well as stress relief on the scope. As to accuracy and consistency, once clamped down, I have never had a problem or have a scope shift. That being said, I use Hawkins rings on my comp rifles. Whole nother world.

My rimfire currently has a set. It is extremely accurate and the zero nvr shifts. I had +20 moa inserts in but with a 30 moa base I couldn't get a 50 yd zero so had to back down to +15 moa inserts... My only gripe is the height. Due to the inserts, they can only go so low. This is the reason I havnt used on more rifles.

I have 2 different one piece bases for my precision AR rifles. An old pepr that I have won several matches with and the new Geiselle one. That thing even you would not call gimmicky...but it also costs $400. But youre screwed if you want extra ele, hence the reason the excitement for the new insert mount. Shoot who knows, maybe Burris even up the specs and tolerances and release a truly precise one piece mount?? I admittingly haven't seen it...

BUT, if the new perpr mount comes out and it doesn't hold up to std, I will be next to you saying its gimmicky. So far tho, they fill a very big hole in scope rings for the majority of rifle owners. Gimmicy for precision bolt rifles? Ya maybe. Gimmicky for people that need LR capabilities and rimfire and factory rifles or are afraid to scratch their scops? absolutely not.


Regrads,
DT

 

[beetroot]

The signature rings with inserts are great.
I used them on my CZ 452 and they allowed me to cant the scope enough that the bolt could clean the scope eyepiece with low rings, by adding heigth is the back and removing it from the front ring I'm just able to use low rings and keep the scope mounted nice an low.

It they had a feature to adapter the rings from 36mm, 35mm and 34mm I'd be buying a pair, as more manufactures seem to be straying from the 34mm "standard".

 

[beetroot]

I can't speak to the entire reticle layout/design, but the open hash tree grid allows better visibility and better precision (see my post above discussing Benning able to hold to .05 mil precisely. Given the overall look with the center cross hair and open hash grid, I'd say it looks pretty dam useful.

The increasing lines on right and left side of reticle are .1 mil target size line's for UKD shooting/ estimating Target size.

I guess I'm confused how the Mil XT is substantially different from this (or vice versa) because both use .2 lines, 1 mil grid spacing, and alternating hashes on the main crosshair.

The hash vs dots is debatable but this is a good look, IMO. It's believe it's more of a precision issue: do you want a course hold or a fine hold?

To each their own. I'd love to have this reticle in any scope.

The main difference I see is the Mil-XT has dots opposed to crosses on the tree, but as you explained it as an open grid rather than a whole bunch of crosses it makes more sense now.

I would've though a centre dot would be more precise that the centre cross, but until we get the sub tensions it's impossible to know how big it'll compare to other reticle designs.

 

[generalzip]

That center cross looks like its .1x.1 mils. At any magnification below max it will probably look very similar to a dot. I actually prefer an open center like on the EBR-C reticles with a .2 hash next to it similar to the SKMR3

 

[steve123]

That's why alot of bench rest guys use em, cause their cheap and really aren't concerned with accuracy and repeatability.

Another nice thing about those Signature inserts, they grip the scope well, even to the point of compressing into the finish since they are more malleable than metal, and I've never had a damaged tube or the finish on the tube using them.

I have had damaged tubes with some popular brands of rings with heavy recoiling rifles, I'd tighten to spec, the scope would slip and damage the finish, so I'd tighten harder and the tube got squeezed on a few of those scopes. Well, I found ARC rings thankfully. But I've had many pairs of 1" and a few 30mm sets of Burris Sig rings, which were a life saver when the mounting holes were off and the scope didn't have much windage travel.

 

[adamjma]

I have a set of signature rings. They are great. In addition to fine tuning the vertical cant (so you can use MORE/ALL of the adjustment range of your scope, or keep all the usual adjustments in the sweet spot near the centre of the tracking range) they also let you cant left or right to accommodate any weirdness in things. Most of us with nice rifles don't need that, but buddy with a wonky rifle might.

Don't knock what you don't know.

 

[koshkin]

I have at least five or six sets of different flavors of signature rings. I'm very happy with them.

ILya

 

[Glassaholic]

That center cross looks like its .1x.1 mils. At any magnification below max it will probably look very similar to a dot. I actually prefer an open center like on the EBR-C reticles with a .2 hash next to it similar to the SKMR3

That was my assessment as well, we'll have to wait until the official specs come out, but it look like .1 mil width which means .05 mil to each side of the center hash.

 

[Bender]

How bout an XTR III fixed 12x with the new reticle for $600?

Hmmmm?

 

[MarkLeupold]

How bout an XTR III fixed 12x with the new reticle for $600?

Hmmmm?

I'd hop on that train

 

[Bender]

I'd hop on that train

I hope someone sends it up the chain. I’ve been waiting for years for SWFA to update Their stuff.... why not XTR?

 

[PBWalsh]

I’m not a huge Christmas tree reticle fan, but I’d consider buying a fixed 10/12x like the XTR III (SCR or SCR2). Looks to have better turrets (10mil/rev), zero stop, and form factor than the SWFA 10x42 HD.

@GeoffatBurris Will the original SCR be in the XTR III?

 

[DJL2]

Are we still thinking mid-2019 for availability?

 

[patriot07]

How bout an XTR III fixed 12x with the new reticle for $600?

Hmmmm?

That idea is crazy good