DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures

#12,051
Quick Update:

Receiver Wrenches:
For those that have been waiting for the Gen 3 RH Receiver Wrenches; first, thank you for being patient, it truly means a lot. The Gen 3 RH Receiver Wrenches, PLUS Gen 3 LH, Gen 1 RH and LH and Gen 2 RH and LH, are headed to me right now. I'll post pics when they arrive and anything not already sold will be in stock.

Gen 2/Gen 3 Cocking Pieces, Single Screw:
They're in the same shipment with the Receiver Wrenches. I've received lots of outreach from folks that have been experiencing the loosening of the screws in the two-screw cocking piece. For those that missed the post about this, the loosening is caused by a crack that forms between the two screw holes due to a thin wall condition. This issue can affect some later Gen 2 and many Gen 3 actions, including builds from Masterpiece Arms. I'll have a large inventory of Single Screw Cocking Pieces within another few days. Two-screw, bad. Single-screw, good.

V-Series Magazines:
The LRIP for the V2210 is moving along very well and I'll have parts to show very soon. Thankfully, there's a sizable interest in the V-Series and X-Series Magazines, and I'm incredibly pleased with how this project has come together. Stay tuned for more info.

Standard M5 and M5x DBMs:
As I mentioned a few updates ago, once the V-Series Mags started LRIP, the DBMs would be folded in and this schedule is running perfectly on-time. If there's an interest in a Pre-Order for DBMs, please let me know and I'll work on the timing to get a Pre-Order started.

www.delanedevgroup.net :
We're already a bit beyond the first few drafts of the new website and I'll say that I'm blessed to have people that want to be a part of how all this is coming together. We don't have a launch date yet, but I'll keep everyone posted.

MB
Two-Screw CP.jpg
 
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#12,052
Quick Update:

The V-Series V2210 (the V2217 is actually in the video) Magazine LRIP is in full swing, and thanks to an awesome crew, we’re a bit ahead of schedule.

We adjusted the approach, so there’s no need for tombstones and we can spread the load across as many as five machines.

Also, it enables us to immediately flip the switch on all capacities of the V-Series and X-Series at once.

I’ll provide part pics very soon, so stay tuned.

MB

 
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#12,053
RAVAGE88 said:
Quick Update:

The V-Series V2210 Magazine LRIP is in full swing, and thanks to an awesome crew, we’re a bit ahead of schedule.

We adjusted the approach, so there’s no need for tombstones and we can spread the load across as many as five machines.

Also, it enables us to immediately flip the switch on all capacities of the V-Series and X-Series at once.

I’ll provide part pics very soon, so stay tuned.

MB

Click to expand...

Video no worky.

Image 8-15-25 at 4.57 PM.jpg
 
#12,057
Dead Eye Dick said:
Got a question, Mike. Is the action you are designing going to be a mid lug bolt or a bolt that uses the handle as the locking lug? Seen both, seen both being accurate rifles made. But I have a favorite. (And own two rifles that use this system of lock-up).
Click to expand...

Well, you could be in luck either way; I’m doing at least one of each.

MB
 
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#12,058
RAVAGE88 said:
Well, you could be in luck either way; I’m doing at least one of each.

MB
Click to expand...
ok, I vote for mid lug.

Actually all my precision rifles, centerfire and rimfire have 60 degree actions, but that may well be asking too much. Beggars can’t be choosers. Nothing definite or carved in stone, but thinking of reducing my centerfire precision rifles, by one and adding a rimfire precision rifle.
 
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#12,059
RAVAGE88 said:
Well, you could be in luck either way; I’m doing at least one of each.

MB
Click to expand...
I just sold my Rim-X in anticipation of a new Mike Bush no-compromise creation which takes correct advantage of a fast-twist barrel.

It will need to go some to keep up with my 1st-gen V22 with 22" MTU / 1:16 Bartlein machined and installed at Old Vudoo (replaced original 20" Ace kukri)! Here are consecutive 102-yard groups (4, 6, 10 rounds respectively) with Lapua Long Range. Wind puffed a little on last one and I didn't try to adjust for it.

Also worth noting that these are 3 of 15 groups fired while "tuning the EC tuner" with this lot of LLR. I ended up moving it three "notches." Interestingly, the 3-notch move had definitive negative impact on grouping of previous-tuned Center-X (opened about .1 mils). So I moved back to the C-X setting; groups tightened right back up. The LLR adjustment made almost a tenth mil difference across six groups.

And no, I absolutely will not say I get this kind of accuracy AllTheTime, but it's not that unusual. That middle one... never done it before, but I bet Milke's new creation will do it again. And again. :cool:

(Grid is .36" (.1 mil @100))
IMG_4722.jpeg
 
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#12,060
DownhillFromHere said:
I just sold my Rim-X in anticipation of a new Mike Bush no-compromise creation which takes correct advantage of a fast-twist barrel.

It will need to go some to keep up with my 1st-gen V22 with 22" MTU / 1:16 Bartlein machined and installed at Old Vudoo (replaced original 20" Ace kukri)! Here are consecutive 102-yard groups (4, 6, 10 rounds respectively) with Lapua Long Range. Wind puffed a little on last one and I didn't try to adjust for it.

Also worth noting that these are 3 of 15 groups fired while "tuning the EC tuner" with this lot of LLR. I ended up moving it three "notches." Interestingly, the 3-notch move had definitive negative impact on grouping of previous-tuned Center-X (opened about .1 mils). So I moved back to the C-X setting; groups tightened right back up. The LLR adjustment made almost a tenth mil difference across six groups.

And no, I absolutely will not say I get this kind of accuracy AllTheTime, but it's not that unusual. That middle one... never done it before, but I bet Milke's new creation will do it again. And again. :cool:

(Grid is .36" (.1 mil @100))
View attachment 8748623
Click to expand...
Wow, very nice, and that middle one!!

I appreciate, immensely, being surrounded by so many that have placed their confidence in me. It blows my mind, daily, and I'm humbled by it. It's mindboggling, and amazing at the same time.

For the first time in a really long time, I'm enjoying the design/development game again. I don't know if it's because the only co-worker I have is a one-eyed cat that sits on my workbench behind me, but what I do know is, this community has taught me something....again. Maybe I'll post a pic of the one-eyed cat in the tractor thread.

So, I continue to be very protective of the people in this community, whether I know them, or not. Sometimes, my "against-the-grain" protective tendencies get me in trouble because I say truthful things out loud that creates discomfort, especially as it relates to the real reasons that have led to platform disfunction, largely associated with bad/inaccurate information.

There are also a few others, that I'm honored to consider my colleagues, that serve this community the same way, and I'm excited about their mutual approach because it serves the community first and puts others on notice that what happened in April isn't acceptable.

The above has led to an imperative to get back to basics as it relates to advancing this game and I'm sure I'll continue to say things that creates discomfort for some, but my focus is this community; the ones that place trust in those that should be delivering their very best, whether it's accurate information or tangible product.

So, for the first time ever, I'm sharing more than I ever have on a technical level, openly asking questions that serves what it means to move back to basics from the perspective of those that shoot and share their experiences, good and bad, create data from the feedback, and execute accordingly. And as a result, the unrest that started in April (likely before that) has been replaced with what it means for the community to look forward and be excited about what's next, and not just from me, but from my colleagues as well.

April 15, 2025, was an interesting day. At the time, I didn't realize how significant it was, but my immediate concern was no different than it was during the few years I was "tactically" absent. Just because I was absent didn't mean I wasn't watching, but what I was struck by the most, was the outreach I received from this community to step back in. And believe me, I take the confidence placed in me very seriously.

Thank you,

MB
 
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#12,061
RAVAGE88 said:
Wow, very nice, and that middle one!!

I appreciate, immensely, being surrounded by so many that have placed their confidence in me. It blows my mind, daily, and I'm humbled by it. It's mindboggling, and amazing at the same time.

For the first time in a really long time, I'm enjoying the design/development game again. I don't know if it's because the only co-worker I have is a one-eyed cat that sits on my workbench behind me, but what I do know is, this community has taught me something....again. Maybe I'll post a pic of the one-eyed cat in the tractor thread.

So, I continue to be very protective of the people in this community, whether I know them, or not. Sometimes, my "against-the-grain" protective tendencies get me in trouble because I say truthful things out loud that creates discomfort, especially as it relates to the real reasons that have led to platform disfunction, largely associated with bad/inaccurate information.

There are also a few others, that I'm honored to consider my colleagues, that serve this community the same way, and I'm excited about their mutual approach because it serves the community first and puts others on notice that what happened in April isn't acceptable.

The above has led to an imperative to get back to basics as it relates to advancing this game and I'm sure I'll continue to say things that creates discomfort for some, but my focus is this community; the ones that place trust in those that should be delivering their very best, whether it's accurate information or tangible product.

So, for the first time ever, I'm sharing more than I ever have on a technical level, openly asking questions that serves what it means to move back to basics from the perspective of those that shoot and share their experiences, good and bad, create data from the feedback, and execute accordingly. And as a result, the unrest that started in April (likely before that) has been replaced with what it means for the community to look forward and be excited about what's next, and not just from me, but from my colleagues as well.

April 15, 2025, was an interesting day. At the time, I didn't realize how significant it was, but my immediate concern was no different than it was during the few years I was "tactically" absent. Just because I was absent didn't mean I wasn't watching, but what I was struck by the most, was the outreach I received from this community to step back in. And believe me, I take the confidence placed in me very seriously.

Thank you,

MB
Click to expand...
I’d like to call you “Phoenix” as you have risen out of VGW ashes. We have all benefited from this opportunity and are rich in knowledge as well as with your support and soon with your products and parts.

We wait in high anticipation of new and superior design now that the leash has been removed and can see what should have been made if left unmettled.

If you want apprentice or testers (read Quality Eng), contact me.
 
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#12,062
J_Reacher said:
I’d like to call you “Phoenix” as you have risen out of VGW ashes. We have all benefited from this opportunity and are rich in knowledge as well as with your support and soon with your products and parts.

We wait in high anticipation of new and superior design now that the leash has been removed and can see what should have been made if left unmettled.

If you want apprentice or testers (read Quality Eng), contact me.
Click to expand...
Thank you, Sir, very much. There's currently daily progress on all the things this community has expressed as priorities. I believe many have learned from what we've all seen and experienced and ultimately, the community is in a better place because of it.

You can answer this in a PM if you'd like, but where are you located?

MB
 
#12,063
Quick Update:

Gmail issue when invoicing:
Well, I'm a little disappointed with my Merchant Services provider; the Gmail issue hasn't been resolved and as of late, there are issues getting invoices to Hotmail accounts as well.

So, I'm forced to administratively reproduce a large number of transactions into a new system, as the batch transfer option from my current provider to the new provider is also inop. What a headache, but I'm working through it.

As I spend the day working through this, I'll resend invoices that so far, have not been deliverable with the old provider. Fortunately, there's an incredibly capable Dude working on the new website, so all of this will be completely automated very soon.

I apologize for the inconvenience this issue has caused, and I appreciate everyone's patience.

Single Screw Cocking Pieces:
It seems there's a flood of folks experiencing an issue with the two-screw cocking piece. The symptoms of a broken two-screw are, difficult bolt lift, erratic accuracy, and some have experienced difficult bolt closure.

The single screw cocking pieces will arrive in my shop later this week/early next. Many have been emailing about this, and I can invoice for this anytime, but give me until tomorrow so I can work through the details with onboarding the new merchant services capabilities and not have to worry about the invoices making it to your inbox.

V-Series Magazines:
This project is going very well, and I plan to be standing at the machines when the first of the V2210 parts are done to begin the LRIP validation. I'll be cataloging parts of the process in pictures and post them here so you guys can continue to follow along.

Thanks again for everyone's support and all the best,
MB
V Series X Series Mag Line.JPG
 
#12,064
DownhillFromHere said:
I just sold my Rim-X in anticipation of a new Mike Bush no-compromise creation which takes correct advantage of a fast-twist barrel.

It will need to go some to keep up with my 1st-gen V22 with 22" MTU / 1:16 Bartlein machined and installed at Old Vudoo (replaced original 20" Ace kukri)! Here are consecutive 102-yard groups (4, 6, 10 rounds respectively) with Lapua Long Range. Wind puffed a little on last one and I didn't try to adjust for it.

Also worth noting that these are 3 of 15 groups fired while "tuning the EC tuner" with this lot of LLR. I ended up moving it three "notches." Interestingly, the 3-notch move had definitive negative impact on grouping of previous-tuned Center-X (opened about .1 mils). So I moved back to the C-X setting; groups tightened right back up. The LLR adjustment made almost a tenth mil difference across six groups.

And no, I absolutely will not say I get this kind of accuracy AllTheTime, but it's not that unusual. That middle one... never done it before, but I bet Milke's new creation will do it again. And again. :cool:

(Grid is .36" (.1 mil @100))
View attachment 8748623
Click to expand...
Can you expand further on this statement?
 
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#12,065
David Lott said:
Can you expand further on this statement?
Click to expand...
Somewhere way, way back in this thread (or maybe others) I recall @RAVAGE88 saying that his research shows an advantage to twist rates faster than standard 1:16 but realizing that advantage can take more than just swapping barrels. Certainly there are anecdotes in this forum of people screwing on such barrels and seeing mediocre to abysmal results (especially with twists greater than 1:13)... others report improvement.

That's the entirety of basis for the statement - something I remember Mike saying quite awhile back.
 
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#12,066
DownhillFromHere said:
Somewhere way, way back in this thread (or maybe others) I recall @RAVAGE88 saying that his research shows an advantage to twist rates faster than standard 1:16 but realizing that advantage can take more than just swapping barrels. Certainly there are anecdotes in this forum of people screwing on such barrels and seeing mediocre to abysmal results (especially with twists greater than 1:13)... others report improvement.

That's the entirety of basis for the statement - something I remember Mike saying quite awhile back.
Click to expand...
THIS^^^^

The fast twist project was always about more than just barrels. The 12 and slower do well with current ammo, but only marginally better than the standard 16 at distance. To run faster than a 12 with current ammo, there are a number of considerations to accessing the benefits, but the shooter has to know what to look for. When the accommodations are made while running a nine twist, nothing hangs with the downrange results.

MB
 
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#12,067
RAVAGE88 said:
THIS^^^^

The fast twist project was always about more than just barrels. The 12 and slower do well with current ammo, but only marginally better than the standard 16 at distance. To run faster than a 12 with current ammo, there are a number of considerations to accessing the benefits, but the shooter has to know what to look for. When the accommodations are made while running a nine twist, nothing hangs with the downrange results.

MB
Click to expand...
Really curious what those accommodations are. Of course, custom ammo is a very big step to take, if that is what is necessary.
 
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#12,069
Emerson0311 said:
Really curious what those accommodations are. Of course, custom ammo is a very big step to take, if that is what is necessary.
Click to expand...
With currently available ammo, OAT and other climate considerations have to be made, and adjust accordingly, but when done effectively, nothing could run with my nine twist guns at distance. Way too many details to try to write it in a post.

The goals with the nine twist were/are large; I had some barrel makers on board and started getting deeper into the ammo makers interest when the wheels fell off at VGW.

MB
 
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#12,071
RAVAGE88 said:
With currently available ammo, OAT and other climate considerations have to be made, and adjust accordingly, but when done effectively, nothing could run with my nine twist guns at distance. Way too many details to try to write it in a post.

The goals with the nine twist were/are large; I had some barrel makers on board and started getting deeper into the ammo makers interest when the wheels fell off at VGW.

MB
Click to expand...
I talked to a barrel manufacturer test crew about it. Basically said the same thing. I guess if a guy could buy points on very small targets past 200 it would be hard to resist. I just did a 5 shot centerfire group at 400 the other day with 1 1/4” vertical. A 24 shot custom Rimfire rifle group at the same distance was 9 1/4” of vertical.
 
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#12,072
RAVAGE88 said:
With currently available ammo, OAT and other climate considerations have to be made, and adjust accordingly, but when done effectively, nothing could run with my nine twist guns at distance. Way too many details to try to write it in a post.

The goals with the nine twist were/are large; I had some barrel makers on board and started getting deeper into the ammo makers interest when the wheels fell off at VGW.

MB
Click to expand...
For people who may have come in late to this thread - there was commentary/question about the fast-twist project while Old Vudoo debris was still rising in the [fecal]storm back in April. Free, free at last, Mike wrote about it at some length back on page 223 of this forum.

I was one of the people who talked with Jill about a fast-twist Vudoo. I remember feeling kinda "whaaaat..." afterward. The post linked above explained why my perception was correct... but I had no inkling that the internal issues were far deeper than that bad vibe.

I've spent awhile this evening reading several dozen posts that started when "Vudoo" went silent - I think it all started in this thread circa 23-April while I think the actual axe fell on 15-April.

How far we've come in less than four months, largely due to one man's creativity, integrity, and perseverance.
 
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#12,073
DownhillFromHere said:
For people who may have come in late to this thread - there was commentary/question about the fast-twist project while Old Vudoo debris was still rising in the [fecal]storm back in April. Free, free at last, Mike wrote about it at some length back on page 223 of this forum.

I was one of the people who talked with Jill about a fast-twist Vudoo. I remember feeling kinda "whaaaat..." afterward. The post linked above explained why my perception was correct... but I had no inkling that the internal issues were far deeper than that bad vibe.

I've spent awhile this evening reading several dozen posts that started when "Vudoo" went silent - I think it all started in this thread circa 23-April while I think the actual axe fell on 15-April.

How far we've come in less than four months, largely due to one man's creativity, integrity, and perseverance.
Click to expand...

👊

MB
 
#12,074
Emerson0311 said:
I talked to a barrel manufacturer test crew about it. Basically said the same thing. I guess if a guy could buy points on very small targets past 200 it would be hard to resist. I just did a 5 shot centerfire group at 400 the other day with 1 1/4” vertical. A 24 shot custom Rimfire rifle group at the same distance was 9 1/4” of vertical.
Click to expand...
I have a picture somewhere of a large round count group out of my nine twist at 400 yards; the group was round and right at three inches. I was shooting next to another V22 with a 16 twist, shot by AJ. From the 16, there was no consistency to placement on target.

Looking at TOF data between the two twist rates explains it all. We were both using LCX.

MB
 
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#12,075
RAVAGE88 said:
I have a picture somewhere of a large round count group out of my nine twist at 400 yards; the group was round and right at three inches. I was shooting next to another V22 with a 16 twist, shot by AJ. From the 16, there was no consistency to placement on target.

Looking at TOF data between the two twist rates explains it all. We were both using LCX.

MB
Click to expand...
Interesting.

My gunclub does a monthly rimfire silhouette match, and there's a money shoot at the end of it. I think its 134 yards on turkeys, 225 on pigs, and 330 on larger turkeys, about 6" tall I think.

For some reason I can't explain, every time I do extremely poor at the 225. Like 1 out of 5. I've done this three times now.

I'll clean the 134, roughly 2" targets, suck at the 225, and usually I'm 3-4 out of five at the 330.

16 twist 20" ace kukri.
 
#12,077
XP1K said:
Interesting.

My gunclub does a monthly rimfire silhouette match, and there's a money shoot at the end of it. I think its 134 yards on turkeys, 225 on pigs, and 330 on larger turkeys, about 6" tall I think.

For some reason I can't explain, every time I do extremely poor at the 225. Like 1 out of 5. I've done this three times now.

I'll clean the 134, roughly 2" targets, suck at the 225, and usually I'm 3-4 out of five at the 330.

16 twist 20" ace kukri.
Click to expand...
So, what does the terrain and environmental look like at 225 yards? Could there be differences unique at that range in comparison to the closer and further distance?

At a different course or shooting area, can you verify DOPE at 225 yards? What about at 200 and 250?

Actual data would be beneficial to help reduce the number of variables to help isolate and identify cause and solution.

You have my curiosity up on this one, thanks!
 
#12,078
J_Reacher said:
So, what does the terrain and environmental look like at 225 yards? Could there be differences unique at that range in comparison to the closer and further distance?

At a different course or shooting area, can you verify DOPE at 225 yards? What about at 200 and 250?

Actual data would be beneficial to help reduce the number of variables to help isolate and identify cause and solution.

You have my curiosity up on this one, thanks!
Click to expand...
I have zero knowledge of the conditions at @XP1K ‘s club, but here there are three distinct wind zones within 310y. It is possible to have a L-R wind at 200 and a R-L wind at 310. More often than not, there’s also either a headwind or tailwind thing going on at the firing line.

These are not heavy winds and not that noticeable with centerfire, but very much noticeable when shooting at smaller targets at those distances.

And yes, due to terrain. In this case the varying wood line on one side and a large pond on another.
 
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#12,079
J_Reacher said:
So, what does the terrain and environmental look like at 225 yards? Could there be differences unique at that range in comparison to the closer and further distance?

At a different course or shooting area, can you verify DOPE at 225 yards? What about at 200 and 250?

Actual data would be beneficial to help reduce the number of variables to help isolate and identify cause and solution.

You have my curiosity up on this one, thanks!
Click to expand...
We're down here on the gulf coast. That range is probably 30' above sea level. It's flat country down here. They have a narrow lane through the trees probably 30-40 yards wide. Wider in places. There are a few gaps that allow crosswind at times. It has a tendency to swirl pretty bad as it comes over the trees and drops in the shooting lane. Its not uncommon to see wind flags going three different directions at times. It was pretty dead last time though.

I'll have to pay better attention to where the gaps in the brush are next time out. I think it's pretty dense on either side though past 150 or so. If I'm remembering right.

We get a two minute sighter period before each relay so verifying dope isnt an issue. Last time out I used my vortex rangefinder with GB. It put me close enough I only had to make minor adjustments if any.
 
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#12,080
JFricke said:
this may turn out to be an ignorant question, but how can twist rate possibly impact time of flight for a given velocity?
Click to expand...

Not at all ignorant, but instead, it’s THE question at the heart of why spinning the projectile faster is important.

The equation isn’t about velocity, but instead, it’s about ballistic coefficient (BC).

If one looks at the published BC from Lapua and compares it to the actuals noted in many Kestrel’s out there, that’s the clue that something is amiss.

Noting the difference in TOF between the slower twist and the faster, the BC from the faster twist is much closer to the published number, but velocity differs very little 10 feet in front of the muzzle. However, velocity from the faster twist is maintained over a longer distance.

MB
 
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#12,082
drewh said:
Mike,
does the 1.2 version of the firing pin/shroud off the adjustability of the later models, just without the easy takedown?
Click to expand...
Yessir, the 1.2 adjusts the same way, however, the thread pitch on the firing pin and cocking piece in the original 1.2 was 48 tpi. The thread pitch after that is 64 tpi. So, anyone needing either a cocking piece or a firing pin for a 1.2 will need to get both to step up to the 64 tpi assembly.

The takedown is no different than the Remington 700, but the Remington 700 thread bolt shroud is 1/2-13 and I used 1/2-20 on the Gen 1 and Gen 1.2 to smooth out the bolt function.

MB
 
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#12,083
XP1K said:
Interesting.

My gunclub does a monthly rimfire silhouette match, and there's a money shoot at the end of it. I think its 134 yards on turkeys, 225 on pigs, and 330 on larger turkeys, about 6" tall I think.

For some reason I can't explain, every time I do extremely poor at the 225. Like 1 out of 5. I've done this three times now.

I'll clean the 134, roughly 2" targets, suck at the 225, and usually I'm 3-4 out of five at the 330.

16 twist 20" ace kukri.
Click to expand...
Funny, I also notice the largest disparity in group size at 200-250. I chalked it up to something weird going on at my range, as I don't have issues at those distances in competition. My gun/ammo combination will hold 0.2-0.3 MRAD sized 10-round groups at 50-100, and 0.3-0.4 MRAD at 300, but I definitely get more significant fliers and overall group size increase at 200-250 than any other distance.

ETA: 1 in 12, 1 in 13, and 1 in 16 twist barrels.
 
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#12,084
RAVAGE88 said:
I have a picture somewhere of a large round count group out of my nine twist at 400 yards; the group was round and right at three inches. I was shooting next to another V22 with a 16 twist, shot by AJ. From the 16, there was no consistency to placement on target.

Looking at TOF data between the two twist rates explains it all. We were both using LCX.

MB
Click to expand...
Mine is a 14T. Previously I used a 12T.
 
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#12,085
RAVAGE88 said:
Not at all ignorant, but instead, it’s THE question at the heart of why spinning the projectile faster is important.

The equation isn’t about velocity, but instead, it’s about ballistic coefficient (BC).

If one looks at the published BC from Lapua and compares it to the actuals noted in many Kestrel’s out there, that’s the clue that something is amiss.

Noting the difference in TOF between the slower twist and the faster, the BC from the faster twist is much closer to the published number, but velocity differs very little 10 feet in front of the muzzle. However, velocity from the faster twist is maintained over a longer distance.

MB
Click to expand...
Ok so BC is improved with a faster twist which results in lower TOF and lower dispersion from environmental factors. Sounds sweet and explains the 13tw prevalence.

But with a 9tw it seems you also would seemingly magnify wobble from an imbalanced soft projectile.

Are you seeing a dispersion where good lots with very consistent bullets are very good and bad Lots with larger differences in center of mass between projectiles are very bad in the nine twist, but would still be passable in a 13 or 16 twist
 
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#12,087
JFricke said:
Ok so BC is improved with a faster twist which results in lower TOF and lower dispersion from environmental factors. Sounds sweet and explains the 13tw prevalence.

But with a 9tw it seems you also would seemingly magnify wobble from an imbalanced soft projectile.

Are you seeing a dispersion where good lots with very consistent bullets are very good and bad Lots with larger differences in center of mass between projectiles are very bad in the nine twist, but would still be passable in a 13 or 16 twist
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Yep, exactly.

Precisely, and the wobble is either non-existent in certain conditions or it's magnified by unfavorable conditions, and this is repeatable/predictable. This is the sole reason I was looking to do a better projectile that isn't a much longer, lathe turned solid. The increased angular velocity of the softer lead projectile means increased deformational pressure based on the Coanda Effect. But when conditions were favorable, the nine twist is pretty incredible.

I generally only shot the best lots I could find through the nine twist so I could eliminate a variable for the sake of sound data. Having said that though, the lesser angular velocity in the slower than nine but faster than 16 proved to be a rather good compromise, but once I experienced what could be done with a nine, I was never too turned on by the 12s and 13s. But I know guys that are doing well with them.

MB
 
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#12,088
It would be interesting to shoot through a series of photo gates to determine at which range the velocity begins to meaningfully diverge for the 16, 14, 13, 12, and 9 twist barrels. This would allow for the user to balance the gains and costs of the faster twist for their use. Obviously LONG range will go with the faster twist but for shorter ranges it might not always be worth the finicky nature. For instance it seems unlikely that 50 yard BR guys will be making the switch.
 
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#12,089
JFricke said:
It would be interesting to shoot through a series of photo gates to determine at which range the velocity begins to meaningfully diverge for the 16, 14, 13, 12, and 9 twist barrels. This would allow for the user to balance the gains and costs of the faster twist for their use. Obviously LONG range will go with the faster twist but for shorter ranges it might not always be worth the finicky nature. For instance it seems unlikely that 50 yard BR guys will be making the switch.
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That would be pretty cool. And I agree, the 50 yard BR guys only care about what was new 50 years ago, when most of them were in their 40s. 🤣😂

MB


C’mon BR guys, I’m kidding.
 
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#12,091
grauhanen said:
It can't be easy to compare reliably .22LR long range results between two or more rifles shot at different times.

Even leaving potentially changing conditions aside, the longer the distance the more the many potential peculiarities of the ammo are seen, not just MV variation.
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You’re absolutely right, which is why there was more than three years invested in data collection.

The TOF data was collected in one long range session in a single day, plotting conditions throughout the collection period with nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels, all shooting the same really good lot of ammo.

MB
 
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#12,092
RAVAGE88 said:
You’re absolutely right, which is why there was more than three years invested in data collection.

The TOF data was collected in one long range session in a single day, plotting conditions throughout the collection period with nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels, all shooting the same really good lot of ammo.

MB
Click to expand...
How did you get TOF?
 
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#12,100
RAVAGE88 said:
You’re absolutely right, which is why there was more than three years invested in data collection.

The TOF data was collected in one long range session in a single day, plotting conditions throughout the collection period with nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels, all shooting the same really good lot of ammo.

MB
Click to expand...
At what distance did the difference in TOF start to show a discernible difference between twists rates?
 
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