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Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet?????
When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet?????
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
This is a rather interesting thread concerning Hornady's business practices. There's another thread flying around this site regarding all the black rifle manufacturers and how there will be an excess. While frustrating Hornady is selling what it makes and is possibly gauging their production numbers from this. I guess the proof will be how much stock is available this spring. However I don't think this is any different than Winchester only making one run of .284 brass per year or Sierra producing some of their match bullets only once per year.
Several years ago there was a very good local shooter who said you could give her Hornadys and she would still buy Sierras. I don't think that's the case any longer. I think they're (H) putting in the time and coming up with some NEW products. They seem to have been the best value for quite some time IMO.
This is a rather interesting thread concerning Hornady's business practices. There's another thread flying around this site regarding all the black rifle manufacturers and how there will be an excess. While frustrating Hornady is selling what it makes and is possibly gauging their production numbers from this. I guess the proof will be how much stock is available this spring. However I don't think this is any different than Winchester only making one run of .284 brass per year or Sierra producing some of their match bullets only once per year.
Several years ago there was a very good local shooter who said you could give her Hornadys and she would still buy Sierras. I don't think that's the case any longer. I think they're (H) putting in the time and coming up with some NEW products. They seem to have been the best value for quite some time IMO.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those prices are the listed full retail. Street price is different and usually quite a bit lower.
And so you know the Berger 210s are $45.99 a box at Midway. That's street price.
</div></div>
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those prices are the listed full retail. Street price is different and usually quite a bit lower.
And so you know the Berger 210s are $45.99 a box at Midway. That's street price.
</div></div>
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Urban legand, no
Unubtanium, yes......
Urban legand, no
Unubtanium, yes......
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet????? </div></div>
I just did a very interesting and admittedly unscientific experiment. I went to jbm ballistics site, used their calculator and checked wind drift for the 210 Berger VLD and the 208 Amax, using the so-called "Litz" BCs, same velocity (2800). 0.3" difference at 1,000 yards, Hornady better.
Using the factory "claimed" BCs, the Berger drift does not change at all, but the Hornady 208 Amax is suddenly 0.9" better than the Berger at 1,000 yards.
Berger prints on the 210VLD box "B.C.= .616". Hornady apparently claims a B.C. for the 208 Amax of .648; I am surprised that such a large difference in actual B.C. would result in this negligible a change in drift.
Am I missing something?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet????? </div></div>
I just did a very interesting and admittedly unscientific experiment. I went to jbm ballistics site, used their calculator and checked wind drift for the 210 Berger VLD and the 208 Amax, using the so-called "Litz" BCs, same velocity (2800). 0.3" difference at 1,000 yards, Hornady better.
Using the factory "claimed" BCs, the Berger drift does not change at all, but the Hornady 208 Amax is suddenly 0.9" better than the Berger at 1,000 yards.
Berger prints on the 210VLD box "B.C.= .616". Hornady apparently claims a B.C. for the 208 Amax of .648; I am surprised that such a large difference in actual B.C. would result in this negligible a change in drift.
Am I missing something?
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet????? </div></div>
I just did a very interesting and admittedly unscientific experiment. I went to jbm ballistics site, used their calculator and checked wind drift for the 210 Berger VLD and the 208 Amax, using the so-called "Litz" BCs, same velocity (2800). 0.3" difference at 1,000 yards, Hornady better.
Using the factory "claimed" BCs, the Berger drift does not change at all, but the Hornady 208 Amax is suddenly 0.9" better than the Berger at 1,000 yards.
Berger prints on the 210VLD box "B.C.= .616". Hornady apparently claims a B.C. for the 208 Amax of .648; I am surprised that such a large difference in actual B.C. would result in this negligible a change in drift.
Am I missing something? </div></div>
The Berger listed G1 that's on the box is low compared to the data that Bryan Litz published in his book. At some point I would not be surprised to see the 210's get an update to say G1 = 0.630, which is what's in Bryan's book.
The Hornady factory G1 is a calculated value.
The "Litz" value for the 208 is 0.633
So it makes a lot of sense that JBM only sees fractional differences in the drift at 1000yd, the bullets are less than 0.5% different.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Hornady first listed the new BTHP bullets on their site I wrote down all the BC's they listed for the different, new, BTHP bullets.
Hornady listed the 208gr BTHP BC as .620 the 208 Amax is listed as being .648
As well as the 208Amax shoots why would anyone want to shoot a lower BC same weight bullet????? </div></div>
I just did a very interesting and admittedly unscientific experiment. I went to jbm ballistics site, used their calculator and checked wind drift for the 210 Berger VLD and the 208 Amax, using the so-called "Litz" BCs, same velocity (2800). 0.3" difference at 1,000 yards, Hornady better.
Using the factory "claimed" BCs, the Berger drift does not change at all, but the Hornady 208 Amax is suddenly 0.9" better than the Berger at 1,000 yards.
Berger prints on the 210VLD box "B.C.= .616". Hornady apparently claims a B.C. for the 208 Amax of .648; I am surprised that such a large difference in actual B.C. would result in this negligible a change in drift.
Am I missing something? </div></div>
The Berger listed G1 that's on the box is low compared to the data that Bryan Litz published in his book. At some point I would not be surprised to see the 210's get an update to say G1 = 0.630, which is what's in Bryan's book.
The Hornady factory G1 is a calculated value.
The "Litz" value for the 208 is 0.633
So it makes a lot of sense that JBM only sees fractional differences in the drift at 1000yd, the bullets are less than 0.5% different.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's.
Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
bohem, thank you very much, that's good to know.
bohem, thank you very much, that's good to know.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. </div></div>
samson,
It will be very interesting to see what transpires with regard to Hornady fielding two different but similar bullets of the same weight. It's already been stated that bullets with polycarbonate tips are NOT easy to manufacture. One might wonder how Hornady sells the Amax so inexpensively when it is more difficult to manufacture than a Berger VLD for instance. Or, on the other hand, one might ask why Berger charges so much for theirs.
It has also been stated that having OTM bullets puts Hornady in contention for .mil contracts, too.
Personally, I'll be surprised if the Amax is with us too much longer. IMHO, the handwriting is on the wall.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. </div></div>
samson,
It will be very interesting to see what transpires with regard to Hornady fielding two different but similar bullets of the same weight. It's already been stated that bullets with polycarbonate tips are NOT easy to manufacture. One might wonder how Hornady sells the Amax so inexpensively when it is more difficult to manufacture than a Berger VLD for instance. Or, on the other hand, one might ask why Berger charges so much for theirs.
It has also been stated that having OTM bullets puts Hornady in contention for .mil contracts, too.
Personally, I'll be surprised if the Amax is with us too much longer. IMHO, the handwriting is on the wall.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.</div></div>
Was at a local gun store today and they had 600 of them on the shelf.
Obviously you just want to bad mouth Hornady as much as you can so no reason to even try to talk to you about this any longer.
Actually Jrob we had asked that and Hornady said the AMAX isn't going anywhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.</div></div>
Was at a local gun store today and they had 600 of them on the shelf.
Obviously you just want to bad mouth Hornady as much as you can so no reason to even try to talk to you about this any longer.
Actually Jrob we had asked that and Hornady said the AMAX isn't going anywhere.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's. </div></div>
I know you weren't. My point was that the claimed BC of the 208Amax might not be quite correct, and other bullets seem to be available (which are actually <span style="font-style: italic">available</span>) that come very close to the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> B.C. of the Amax208. And, B.C. isn't everything, accuracy and cost also matter significantly, and yes, I wish the Bergers weren't so expensive. Except perhaps in this case because I suspect the Bergers' price, coupled with Hornady's endless stringing users along with "next month!" availability, is the only reason I could even get them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's. </div></div>
I know you weren't. My point was that the claimed BC of the 208Amax might not be quite correct, and other bullets seem to be available (which are actually <span style="font-style: italic">available</span>) that come very close to the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> B.C. of the Amax208. And, B.C. isn't everything, accuracy and cost also matter significantly, and yes, I wish the Bergers weren't so expensive. Except perhaps in this case because I suspect the Bergers' price, coupled with Hornady's endless stringing users along with "next month!" availability, is the only reason I could even get them.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's. </div></div>
I know you weren't. My point was that the claimed BC of the 208Amax might not be quite correct, and other bullets seem to be available (which are actually <span style="font-style: italic">available</span>) that come very close to the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> B.C. of the Amax208. And, B.C. isn't everything, accuracy and cost also matter significantly, and yes, I wish the Bergers weren't so expensive. Except perhaps in this case because I suspect the Bergers' price, coupled with Hornady's endless stringing users along with "next month!" availability, is the only reason I could even get them. </div></div>
It's very common knowledge that advertised BC's are rarely correct as well as the common knowledge that the 208 Amax has a G1 average of 0.633, as well as another piece of common information that the G1 is less "flat" for a standard curve and most people should be using the G7 curve with these type bullets... I don't know what you're trying to get at.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to be clear I was referring to the 2 different 208gr Hornady bullets and that I can't see why you would want to shoot a Hornady 208gr BTHP with a BC of .620 when they make a 208gr. Amax with a BC of .648. Unless only one was available.
I was never comparing the Berger 210's to the Hornady 208's. </div></div>
I know you weren't. My point was that the claimed BC of the 208Amax might not be quite correct, and other bullets seem to be available (which are actually <span style="font-style: italic">available</span>) that come very close to the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> B.C. of the Amax208. And, B.C. isn't everything, accuracy and cost also matter significantly, and yes, I wish the Bergers weren't so expensive. Except perhaps in this case because I suspect the Bergers' price, coupled with Hornady's endless stringing users along with "next month!" availability, is the only reason I could even get them. </div></div>
It's very common knowledge that advertised BC's are rarely correct as well as the common knowledge that the 208 Amax has a G1 average of 0.633, as well as another piece of common information that the G1 is less "flat" for a standard curve and most people should be using the G7 curve with these type bullets... I don't know what you're trying to get at.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I don't know what you're trying to get at.</div></div>
Josh he's trying to backhand insult Hornady as that is what he seems to get off on doing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I don't know what you're trying to get at.</div></div>
Josh he's trying to backhand insult Hornady as that is what he seems to get off on doing.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually Jrob we had asked that and Hornady said the AMAX isn't going anywhere. </div></div>
Yeah, I remember Tony saying that before. I hope it's true... I just don't know whether I really believe it or not. Companies *say* lot's of things.
The .208 Amax is the most technically advanced (mass produced) bullet on the market and according to Dave Tooley it's more difficult to manufacture (therefore more expensive and time consuming) and yet it's also the least expensive high BC 30 on the market. AND they just came out with another 208?
Something about this whole thing just seems a bit odd. Perhaps they can absorb the extra manufacturing expense in other products. Time will tell.
If Hornady wants to continue making 208 Amax's and I can continue to buy them for $27/100, *I'M* not going to complain.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually Jrob we had asked that and Hornady said the AMAX isn't going anywhere. </div></div>
Yeah, I remember Tony saying that before. I hope it's true... I just don't know whether I really believe it or not. Companies *say* lot's of things.
The .208 Amax is the most technically advanced (mass produced) bullet on the market and according to Dave Tooley it's more difficult to manufacture (therefore more expensive and time consuming) and yet it's also the least expensive high BC 30 on the market. AND they just came out with another 208?
Something about this whole thing just seems a bit odd. Perhaps they can absorb the extra manufacturing expense in other products. Time will tell.
If Hornady wants to continue making 208 Amax's and I can continue to buy them for $27/100, *I'M* not going to complain.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.</div></div>
Was at a local gun store today and they had 600 of them on the shelf.
Obviously you just want to bad mouth Hornady as much as you can so no reason to even try to talk to you about this any longer.
</div></div>
No, I didn't come here to badmouth Hornady, but since you have raised the issue, perhaps the return question is appropriate, no? Do you receive support of any kind from Hornady? Are you sponsored by them, get a discount on their stuff, are you an employee or do you get any remuneration from them? If not, then I have nothing more to say about that particular issue. If you do, then, well, I might. Your sig features a Hornady advert. What should I believe?
I will say categorically that I have no business relationship with Berger other than buying their bullets at retail price from Midway. I started out looking for the 208 Amaxes; I could find none. Opportunity cost being what it is, I substituted. I find that I am happy with my substitution. I also find a host of Hornadyphiles, defending the indefensible. I find this puzzling and say so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, and as a plus, <span style="font-style: italic">they are actually available</span>.</div></div>
Was at a local gun store today and they had 600 of them on the shelf.
Obviously you just want to bad mouth Hornady as much as you can so no reason to even try to talk to you about this any longer.
</div></div>
No, I didn't come here to badmouth Hornady, but since you have raised the issue, perhaps the return question is appropriate, no? Do you receive support of any kind from Hornady? Are you sponsored by them, get a discount on their stuff, are you an employee or do you get any remuneration from them? If not, then I have nothing more to say about that particular issue. If you do, then, well, I might. Your sig features a Hornady advert. What should I believe?
I will say categorically that I have no business relationship with Berger other than buying their bullets at retail price from Midway. I started out looking for the 208 Amaxes; I could find none. Opportunity cost being what it is, I substituted. I find that I am happy with my substitution. I also find a host of Hornadyphiles, defending the indefensible. I find this puzzling and say so.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Seeing as you are new here I will explain what everyone else here already knows and has known for years. Yes our team is sponsored by Hornady and it you go to their site and look at their Sponsored Shooter page you will see us there. We get a specific amount of product supports from them a year and discounts after that. We don't work for them.
Some people look at that to be a bad thing, like you, but the people who are intelligent enough to see that we get inside info and get that info out to the guys here as well as pass the info the other way from the site to Hornady. The guys then know what is going on and Hornady knows what is being said as well. When people who are new and don't know this and come in and act all cynical and like they know what's going to happen then it becomes a problem. You obviously don't want to hear the info we get directly from Hornady and think you know better than Mr. Hornady about his company. That's the funny part about all this. You just come on here and shit talk a company making assumptions about why the bullets aren't on the shelf when we have informed everyone as to why. Has nothing to do with opportunity cost or holding off to make more money. But you won't believe that.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets over the years so I am not speaking ill of them. I used to use the 210 VLD before the 208s came out and they shot well for me.
Hornady has a lot of support on this site due to their products and nothing else. They work and their prices are good and that's what has built them to be the company they are and will continue to do so. Just last week we were asked by our contact person at Hornady about what is the word on the street about their products and we passed on the lack of product and mentioned the 208, 178, 140 and 105 AMAXs specifically. Our emails went all the way up the Hornady chain. We also passed on here what we were told after getting a return email. But again you don't believe any of that.
So how about you step back and give it a break and don't even try to insinuate that there is anything back handed about my support of Hornady from our sponsorship or you will find yourself booted from this site fast. Look at my name color. It's green because I am a moderator here. I have no problem discussing products on their merits but start assaulting my honor on this site and you will be gone. So think very hard about what you type next because it might be your last on this site.
Seeing as you are new here I will explain what everyone else here already knows and has known for years. Yes our team is sponsored by Hornady and it you go to their site and look at their Sponsored Shooter page you will see us there. We get a specific amount of product supports from them a year and discounts after that. We don't work for them.
Some people look at that to be a bad thing, like you, but the people who are intelligent enough to see that we get inside info and get that info out to the guys here as well as pass the info the other way from the site to Hornady. The guys then know what is going on and Hornady knows what is being said as well. When people who are new and don't know this and come in and act all cynical and like they know what's going to happen then it becomes a problem. You obviously don't want to hear the info we get directly from Hornady and think you know better than Mr. Hornady about his company. That's the funny part about all this. You just come on here and shit talk a company making assumptions about why the bullets aren't on the shelf when we have informed everyone as to why. Has nothing to do with opportunity cost or holding off to make more money. But you won't believe that.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets over the years so I am not speaking ill of them. I used to use the 210 VLD before the 208s came out and they shot well for me.
Hornady has a lot of support on this site due to their products and nothing else. They work and their prices are good and that's what has built them to be the company they are and will continue to do so. Just last week we were asked by our contact person at Hornady about what is the word on the street about their products and we passed on the lack of product and mentioned the 208, 178, 140 and 105 AMAXs specifically. Our emails went all the way up the Hornady chain. We also passed on here what we were told after getting a return email. But again you don't believe any of that.
So how about you step back and give it a break and don't even try to insinuate that there is anything back handed about my support of Hornady from our sponsorship or you will find yourself booted from this site fast. Look at my name color. It's green because I am a moderator here. I have no problem discussing products on their merits but start assaulting my honor on this site and you will be gone. So think very hard about what you type next because it might be your last on this site.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seeing as you are new here I will explain what everyone else here already knows and has known for years. Yes our team is sponsored by Hornady and it you go to their site and look at their Sponsored Shooter page you will see us there. We get a specific amount of product supports from them a year and discounts after that. We don't work for them.
Some people look at that to be a bad thing, like you, but the people who are intelligent enough to see that we get inside info and get that info out to the guys here as well as pass the info the other way from the site to Hornady. The guys then know what is going on and Hornady knows what is being said as well. When people who are new and don't know this and come in and act all cynical and like they know what's going to happen then it becomes a problem. You obviously don't want to hear the info we get directly from Hornady and think you know better than Mr. Hornady about his company. That's the funny part about all this. You just come on here and shit talk a company making assumptions about why the bullets aren't on the shelf when we have informed everyone as to why. Has nothing to do with opportunity cost or holding off to make more money. But you won't believe that.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets over the years so I am not speaking ill of them. I used to use the 210 VLD before the 208s came out and they shot well for me.
Hornady has a lot of support on this site due to their products and nothing else. They work and their prices are good and that's what has built them to be the company they are and will continue to do so. Just last week we were asked by our contact person at Hornady about what is the word on the street about their products and we passed on the lack of product and mentioned the 208, 178, 140 and 105 AMAXs specifically. Our emails went all the way up the Hornady chain. We also passed on here what we were told after getting a return email. But again you don't believe any of that.
So how about you step back and give it a break and don't even try to insinuate that there is anything back handed about my support of Hornady from our sponsorship or you will find yourself booted from this site fast. Look at my name color. It's green because I am a moderator here. I have no problem discussing products on their merits but start assaulting my honor on this site and you will be gone. So think very hard about what you type next because it might be your last on this site. </div></div>
I didn't know you were sponsored, I don't recall your having ever mentioned it on a thread where I participated. Perhaps you assumed I knew that. Now I understand perfectly, and it explains a lot.
It seems to me that, absent disclosure you might feel you already made, one should recuse one's self from merit discussions where one has a vested commercial interest. Perhaps you feel differently.
You do what you think is right and so will I.
BTW, opportunity cost is borne by me, it's not an accusation: <span style="font-style: italic">The cost of passing up the next best choice when making a decision.</span>
Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/3470/opportunity_cost.html#ixzz17YbtAk5V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seeing as you are new here I will explain what everyone else here already knows and has known for years. Yes our team is sponsored by Hornady and it you go to their site and look at their Sponsored Shooter page you will see us there. We get a specific amount of product supports from them a year and discounts after that. We don't work for them.
Some people look at that to be a bad thing, like you, but the people who are intelligent enough to see that we get inside info and get that info out to the guys here as well as pass the info the other way from the site to Hornady. The guys then know what is going on and Hornady knows what is being said as well. When people who are new and don't know this and come in and act all cynical and like they know what's going to happen then it becomes a problem. You obviously don't want to hear the info we get directly from Hornady and think you know better than Mr. Hornady about his company. That's the funny part about all this. You just come on here and shit talk a company making assumptions about why the bullets aren't on the shelf when we have informed everyone as to why. Has nothing to do with opportunity cost or holding off to make more money. But you won't believe that.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets over the years so I am not speaking ill of them. I used to use the 210 VLD before the 208s came out and they shot well for me.
Hornady has a lot of support on this site due to their products and nothing else. They work and their prices are good and that's what has built them to be the company they are and will continue to do so. Just last week we were asked by our contact person at Hornady about what is the word on the street about their products and we passed on the lack of product and mentioned the 208, 178, 140 and 105 AMAXs specifically. Our emails went all the way up the Hornady chain. We also passed on here what we were told after getting a return email. But again you don't believe any of that.
So how about you step back and give it a break and don't even try to insinuate that there is anything back handed about my support of Hornady from our sponsorship or you will find yourself booted from this site fast. Look at my name color. It's green because I am a moderator here. I have no problem discussing products on their merits but start assaulting my honor on this site and you will be gone. So think very hard about what you type next because it might be your last on this site. </div></div>
I didn't know you were sponsored, I don't recall your having ever mentioned it on a thread where I participated. Perhaps you assumed I knew that. Now I understand perfectly, and it explains a lot.
It seems to me that, absent disclosure you might feel you already made, one should recuse one's self from merit discussions where one has a vested commercial interest. Perhaps you feel differently.
You do what you think is right and so will I.
BTW, opportunity cost is borne by me, it's not an accusation: <span style="font-style: italic">The cost of passing up the next best choice when making a decision.</span>
Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/3470/opportunity_cost.html#ixzz17YbtAk5V
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I didn't know you were sponsored, I don't recall your having ever mentioned it on a thread where I participated. Perhaps you assumed I knew that. Now I understand perfectly, and it explains a lot.
It seems to me that, absent disclosure you might feel you already made, one should recuse one's self from merit discussions where one has a vested commercial interest. Perhaps you feel differently.
</div></div>
I guess the big banner and link to team site with all pertinent information on our team isn't enough. Maybe I should write a big disclaimer for all the new guys? Not going to happen.
So you don't want any info on the products or real world information from the people who are actually using it and have much more info than you do? Hmm interesting. So you want to get it from people online who are speaking from guesses and what they read in gun rags?
Also you don't think anyone should speak as a spokesman for any product? No one on any site or gun magazine who is sponsored by a company should talk about those products because in your cynical mind they are just selling a product? Some info for you, I shoot to win. I don't use products that won't help me do that no matter if they want to throw them at us and companies have in the past and we have turned them down.
I will place my reputation of almost 10 years on this site and others and record of helping and meeting face to face many, many shooters over the years to your 3 months of anonymity on this site. I wonder who people will listen to when wanting to get truthful information about products? Especially products that I have alot of personal experience with. Did you get boxes of 208 AMAX before they were even available to the general public to test and give feedback on? I did. So I guess you don't want my info as i am a sponsored shooter. People know me and know I will not shine them on with bullshit just because I am a sponsored shooter.
And I have no commercial vested interest in Hornady. I shoot for them. If they make money I don't get anymore than the product I get already. Same if they lose money but companies aren't in the business to lose money. What I don't like is when someone comes in and speaks bad of a company like Hornady that is all about the shooters and insinuates that they are doing things to screw the people that have made them what they are. Hornady is a first rate company and I won't stand for them or any other company like them to be spoken of in that way. Whether I am sponsored by them or not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I didn't know you were sponsored, I don't recall your having ever mentioned it on a thread where I participated. Perhaps you assumed I knew that. Now I understand perfectly, and it explains a lot.
It seems to me that, absent disclosure you might feel you already made, one should recuse one's self from merit discussions where one has a vested commercial interest. Perhaps you feel differently.
</div></div>
I guess the big banner and link to team site with all pertinent information on our team isn't enough. Maybe I should write a big disclaimer for all the new guys? Not going to happen.
So you don't want any info on the products or real world information from the people who are actually using it and have much more info than you do? Hmm interesting. So you want to get it from people online who are speaking from guesses and what they read in gun rags?
Also you don't think anyone should speak as a spokesman for any product? No one on any site or gun magazine who is sponsored by a company should talk about those products because in your cynical mind they are just selling a product? Some info for you, I shoot to win. I don't use products that won't help me do that no matter if they want to throw them at us and companies have in the past and we have turned them down.
I will place my reputation of almost 10 years on this site and others and record of helping and meeting face to face many, many shooters over the years to your 3 months of anonymity on this site. I wonder who people will listen to when wanting to get truthful information about products? Especially products that I have alot of personal experience with. Did you get boxes of 208 AMAX before they were even available to the general public to test and give feedback on? I did. So I guess you don't want my info as i am a sponsored shooter. People know me and know I will not shine them on with bullshit just because I am a sponsored shooter.
And I have no commercial vested interest in Hornady. I shoot for them. If they make money I don't get anymore than the product I get already. Same if they lose money but companies aren't in the business to lose money. What I don't like is when someone comes in and speaks bad of a company like Hornady that is all about the shooters and insinuates that they are doing things to screw the people that have made them what they are. Hornady is a first rate company and I won't stand for them or any other company like them to be spoken of in that way. Whether I am sponsored by them or not.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I'd like to make a public address on my earlier statements. After rereading them they can come across as a little unprofesional and overly aggressive. I guess it's due to my Italian/German heritage but I get pretty passionate especially when my integrity and that of a company I think very highly of comes into question.
It was not my intentions to drive SWRichmond off the site or out of any conversations on the site as like anyone who knows me knows I am all about building our community both here on the Hide as well as the long range precision shooting specifically and the shooting community as a whole.
Although to clarify so there is no misunderstanding, my integrity and honor are more important than any sponsorship so no one think I am selling myself out for anything. I have shot many years before having sponsors and will shoot many years after God willing. I try to do my best at getting the best information on products from companies I shoot for out to you guys. I will continue to do that.
Also Hornady has nothing but the shooter's in mind when getting their products out. Yes they are in business to make money but if you look at their track record of inovation in both bullets and cartridges as well as their costs always being very fair for the shooters I think you can see they are a stand up company. They are pushing product out as fast as they can. It's not fast enough for some but it is what it is. We have and will continue to send the comments from you guys up the Hornady chain so they know what the shooters are saying so they can take that and help themselves become a better company. As I have mentioned before I have a new 300WM that hasn't been fired because I am waiting on my 208 AMAX order as well. Try not to get frustrsated. The produts will come.
So in closing, if SWRichmond can let this last couple of days of posts go I would like to bury the hatchet and put it behind us as well. Hopefully we can meet up in person some day, maybe at one of Fargo's matches in PA, and have a beer and shoot the shit like fellow shooters should do as opposed to peck away at keys on a computer.
I'd like to make a public address on my earlier statements. After rereading them they can come across as a little unprofesional and overly aggressive. I guess it's due to my Italian/German heritage but I get pretty passionate especially when my integrity and that of a company I think very highly of comes into question.
It was not my intentions to drive SWRichmond off the site or out of any conversations on the site as like anyone who knows me knows I am all about building our community both here on the Hide as well as the long range precision shooting specifically and the shooting community as a whole.
Although to clarify so there is no misunderstanding, my integrity and honor are more important than any sponsorship so no one think I am selling myself out for anything. I have shot many years before having sponsors and will shoot many years after God willing. I try to do my best at getting the best information on products from companies I shoot for out to you guys. I will continue to do that.
Also Hornady has nothing but the shooter's in mind when getting their products out. Yes they are in business to make money but if you look at their track record of inovation in both bullets and cartridges as well as their costs always being very fair for the shooters I think you can see they are a stand up company. They are pushing product out as fast as they can. It's not fast enough for some but it is what it is. We have and will continue to send the comments from you guys up the Hornady chain so they know what the shooters are saying so they can take that and help themselves become a better company. As I have mentioned before I have a new 300WM that hasn't been fired because I am waiting on my 208 AMAX order as well. Try not to get frustrsated. The produts will come.
So in closing, if SWRichmond can let this last couple of days of posts go I would like to bury the hatchet and put it behind us as well. Hopefully we can meet up in person some day, maybe at one of Fargo's matches in PA, and have a beer and shoot the shit like fellow shooters should do as opposed to peck away at keys on a computer.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Rob,
Your a stand up guy and I'm proud to be able to say that I've shot with you.
I'd like to thank you for sharing valuable information that has helped me out personally and has undoubtedly helped others as well.
Your a credit to the sport / industry.
Please continue to keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Phil
Rob,
Your a stand up guy and I'm proud to be able to say that I've shot with you.
I'd like to thank you for sharing valuable information that has helped me out personally and has undoubtedly helped others as well.
Your a credit to the sport / industry.
Please continue to keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Phil
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Rob,
Speaking for myself, I'm quite capable of getting the bit in my teeth from time to time.
Peace.
Rob,
Speaking for myself, I'm quite capable of getting the bit in my teeth from time to time.
Peace.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I contacted Hornady about when the 208 Amaxes <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">MIGHT</span></span> be on dealers shelves again. This is the response I got. Perhaps if we innundate them with e-mails and phone call, maybe we would get them a couple days sooner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have this item scheduled to make 2 production runs in February 2011. Unfortunately, they will not be available in stores until the end of February/beginning of March. We apologize for the delay.
Thank you.
Hornady Sales Team
phone 1-800-338-3220</div></div>
I contacted Hornady about when the 208 Amaxes <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">MIGHT</span></span> be on dealers shelves again. This is the response I got. Perhaps if we innundate them with e-mails and phone call, maybe we would get them a couple days sooner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have this item scheduled to make 2 production runs in February 2011. Unfortunately, they will not be available in stores until the end of February/beginning of March. We apologize for the delay.
Thank you.
Hornady Sales Team
phone 1-800-338-3220</div></div>
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dibbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I contacted Hornady about when the 208 Amaxes <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">MIGHT</span></span> be on dealers shelves again. This is the response I got. Perhaps if we innundate them with e-mails and phone call, maybe we would get them a couple days sooner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have this item scheduled to make 2 production runs in February 2011. Unfortunately, they will not be available in stores until the end of February/beginning of March. We apologize for the delay.
Thank you.
Hornady Sales Team
phone 1-800-338-3220</div></div>
</div></div>
FWIW,
I've been calling them since August, IIRC. They were scheduled for Sept. at that time. Every time I've called since, the schedule has been slipped from the time before. (So it's probably MY fault. I'll stop calling them now
) So *scheduled* means absolutely nothing at this point. They'll be here when they're here and for whatever reason either Hornady does not consider them a priority or is not in a position to do anything about it.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dibbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I contacted Hornady about when the 208 Amaxes <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">MIGHT</span></span> be on dealers shelves again. This is the response I got. Perhaps if we innundate them with e-mails and phone call, maybe we would get them a couple days sooner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have this item scheduled to make 2 production runs in February 2011. Unfortunately, they will not be available in stores until the end of February/beginning of March. We apologize for the delay.
Thank you.
Hornady Sales Team
phone 1-800-338-3220</div></div>
</div></div>
FWIW,
I've been calling them since August, IIRC. They were scheduled for Sept. at that time. Every time I've called since, the schedule has been slipped from the time before. (So it's probably MY fault. I'll stop calling them now
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
So,
All things being equal, what then is the ultimate 308 cal bullet for game at ranges up to 1,000 yards?
The 155-ish, 175s or 210/208?
So,
All things being equal, what then is the ultimate 308 cal bullet for game at ranges up to 1,000 yards?
The 155-ish, 175s or 210/208?
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
well played rob and swrichmond. we are respectable people "some of the time"
glad to see u2 squash it. i got some boxes of high price bergers comin in till a maxes get here. do what ya gotta do
well played rob and swrichmond. we are respectable people "some of the time"
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob01, since you seem to be out local Hornady spokesperson do you know if this new 208bthp will have a higher fps ceiling than the Amax which is higher than the 210 Berger?</div></div>
Spoke with Hornady and they said it should due to the design differences.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: samson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob01, since you seem to be out local Hornady spokesperson do you know if this new 208bthp will have a higher fps ceiling than the Amax which is higher than the 210 Berger?</div></div>
Spoke with Hornady and they said it should due to the design differences.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Rob,
To hijack this thread and make it somewhat more civil , could you tell me what's the (a) recommended and (b) acceptable rifle twist for .308 for A-MAX 208gr bullets? E.g. my 308 rifles have 1:12 and 1:11 twist. Would this bullet perform well in those at long range (say 1000m+)?
Tnx!
Rob,
To hijack this thread and make it somewhat more civil
Tnx!
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Some people have reported success with a 12 twist, but an 11 would be better. Best of all is actually a good old 10 twist, which is actually just about perfect for *ALL*Conditions*.
Don't be shy about giving a 12 twist a try, heck Montanamarine has been having some luck with it. You may do fine, or you may find out it does not like your 12 twist stick.
For sure a 10 twist will work very well indeed.
Gary
Some people have reported success with a 12 twist, but an 11 would be better. Best of all is actually a good old 10 twist, which is actually just about perfect for *ALL*Conditions*.
Don't be shy about giving a 12 twist a try, heck Montanamarine has been having some luck with it. You may do fine, or you may find out it does not like your 12 twist stick.
For sure a 10 twist will work very well indeed.
Gary
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Recommended is 10 but as mentioned people, MontanaMarine being the original post starter, have shot them in slower twists with success. You just need to try them out. Read his posts using RL17 and give them a shot.
Recommended is 10 but as mentioned people, MontanaMarine being the original post starter, have shot them in slower twists with success. You just need to try them out. Read his posts using RL17 and give them a shot.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Ah, but I don't have a 308 barrel with 1:10 (yet?
). That's my 338 twist!
And yes I'll give it a shot (no pun intended, or maybe just a leetle bit ).
Ah, but I don't have a 308 barrel with 1:10 (yet?
And yes I'll give it a shot (no pun intended, or maybe just a leetle bit
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505</div></div>
Unfortunately, marketing is changing with Sierra. They always used to be good with the 100 count boxes. They are now going to the 50 bullet count in many of the heavier bullets.
Here's the 210's.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2235
220's are being sold in 100 count, but that is soon to change.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2240 </div></div>
Sierra has not changed the packageing of the bullets! This the same as it has been for years!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505</div></div>
Unfortunately, marketing is changing with Sierra. They always used to be good with the 100 count boxes. They are now going to the 50 bullet count in many of the heavier bullets.
Here's the 210's.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2235
220's are being sold in 100 count, but that is soon to change.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2240 </div></div>
Sierra has not changed the packageing of the bullets! This the same as it has been for years!
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I have one unopened 100 ct. box of .308 208 GA A-Max Lot#2090374.
I will do a trade for 100 Nosler 200GR Accubonds if anyone has them.
PM me if interested.
I have one unopened 100 ct. box of .308 208 GA A-Max Lot#2090374.
I will do a trade for 100 Nosler 200GR Accubonds if anyone has them.
PM me if interested.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Just checking in on the .208 Amax proposed late Feb production dates is it still looking like then or have they made it to the shelves since last post?
Just checking in on the .208 Amax proposed late Feb production dates is it still looking like then or have they made it to the shelves since last post?
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Grafs has them in stock.
Grafs has them in stock.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ
I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ </div></div>
3000. No wonder the rest of us can't find any.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ </div></div>
3000. No wonder the rest of us can't find any.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
great thanks for the updates guys.
great thanks for the updates guys.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ </div></div>
3000. No wonder the rest of us can't find any.
John </div></div>
Damn, John...you're good. My Financial Adviser told me to invest more in commodities...LOL...so I am
--KJ
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got 94 lbs of them myself...any guesses as to how many that is...lol
...poor UPS guy...hahahaha
--KJ </div></div>
3000. No wonder the rest of us can't find any.
John </div></div>
Damn, John...you're good. My Financial Adviser told me to invest more in commodities...LOL...so I am
--KJ
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
My supplier called me today with nine boxes on the way. No you can't know my supplier. LOL!
My supplier called me today with nine boxes on the way. No you can't know my supplier. LOL!
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grafs has them in stock. </div></div>
Yes they do mine shipped today!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grafs has them in stock. </div></div>
Yes they do mine shipped today!
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Ordered from Midway in mid-July. They finally came in last week. Still waiting on the order from Sinclair.
Ordered from Midway in mid-July. They finally came in last week. Still waiting on the order from Sinclair.
