I'll be working on 90 grain stuff as well. I started out with 20 thou jump and with that there was a whole lotta bullet inside the case using the 95 grain Sierra
- Thread starter Niles Coyote
- Start date
Yea sounds like your using a sammi reamer?
With my custom bolt gun reamer I am pushing the 90smk at 2807 out of a 26" with CFE223. I have a bunch of 95's to play with next. And 8lb of PP
It's amazing the difference in OAL between the 90 and 95 grain Sierra HPBTM-5 grains makes a HUGE difference
My first attempt at a ladder test. I did two shots per load. I was impressed with how linear the speeds were. I'm looking at 23.9 -24.1 for a possible node to test further.
95 grain SMK
Varget 21.1 - 25.9 grains
Starline virgin brass, run though FL die.
Federal small rifle primers
24" Spencer/MPA barrel 6.5 twist
Using that node with a velocity of 2674, that puts the heavy 95 grain pill out to 1200 yards in 2 seconds flat, remaining supersonic for the entire flight. Very excited to see this.
95 grain SMK
Varget 21.1 - 25.9 grains
Starline virgin brass, run though FL die.
Federal small rifle primers
24" Spencer/MPA barrel 6.5 twist
Using that node with a velocity of 2674, that puts the heavy 95 grain pill out to 1200 yards in 2 seconds flat, remaining supersonic for the entire flight. Very excited to see this.
I couldn’t be happier with 2000 MR and 90 SMKs at 2750.
Not 1 hole groups but from an AR I’ll take this all day. This was final seating tweak. Pretty sure I pulled the high one in the bottom group or it would have been in the .3s. I’ll load a handful of each and see which one gets edged out but it’s a win-win at this point. X-Caliber barrel with correct(not extra long) free bore.
Not 1 hole groups but from an AR I’ll take this all day. This was final seating tweak. Pretty sure I pulled the high one in the bottom group or it would have been in the .3s. I’ll load a handful of each and see which one gets edged out but it’s a win-win at this point. X-Caliber barrel with correct(not extra long) free bore.
Thanks for posting that data. I tried out that node and found a little less speed, 2650 for the 23.9g. This charge produced a .639” group with two of the three shots in a hole that looked like one. Hoping it was just the shooter that opened it up further?. Time to play a little with depth. This group came with a jump of .020 from lands. FWIW, the 23.7g charge produced a .472” group with same jump and 2622fps. Barrel is a 22” Rock Creek 6.7t and the COAL at lands for this bullet is 2.305. I’ve been able to get a max oal of 2.295 into the magazine, but that’s about it.
Your final charge in the data is quite a bit higher than any listed. And although I don’t think the 24.1g charge is compressed in my oal I was wondering how the heck you stuffed 25.5 in there.? What COAL/jump are you using? And what length barrel? Btw, first post for me here. Hoping to make the Valkyrie dream come true.
Impressive velocities at the upper end... This is in a bolt-gun correct? Did you see any bad pressure signs at that velocity?
I am currently developing a load for the 95 SMK in a 224V AR15, 26" barrel (custom rifle built by me). So far I have hit a little over 2700 FPS using Re-16 in new Starline brass with BR-4 primers. It is a very full cartridge before seating the bullet but fortunately Re-16 compresses well. I do not think I will be able to push the velocities much higher than that.
Best three groups so far are one 0.3" 3-shot group, and two 0.5" three-shot groups at 100 yards. I am still working on this load but the preliminary results are promising.
So I have somewhat of a two part question. I’m sure this has been discussed but I’m having trouble finding solid answers.
What mags are you guys running in your bolt guns with AICS style bottom metal/mags? I’m having a hell of a time getting my Bighorn Origin to feed reliably.
Also I’m looking into loading Berger 90gr vlds and I haven’t found much data load data on them. Powders I’d be experimenting with are CFE .223, Varget, LR17, Power pro 2000 mr. My rifle set up is a 1:7 24” Bartlein 5r with a Bighorn Origin. Any help would be much appreciated thanks!
What mags are you guys running in your bolt guns with AICS style bottom metal/mags? I’m having a hell of a time getting my Bighorn Origin to feed reliably.
Also I’m looking into loading Berger 90gr vlds and I haven’t found much data load data on them. Powders I’d be experimenting with are CFE .223, Varget, LR17, Power pro 2000 mr. My rifle set up is a 1:7 24” Bartlein 5r with a Bighorn Origin. Any help would be much appreciated thanks!
As far as an AICS mag goes I’m running the MDT Polly mags. These are the prefit mags for the .224 I believe H&S is who did the magazine adjustments, I would need to check my papers to be positive. If you call MDT they will point you in the right direction for the fitted mags. They feed well been running it all summer with no issues on an Origin action. Bad thing is it only fits 8 rounds in a mag. Good thing is you can fix that with a mag extension.
MDT 224V polymer mags which are their 223 AICS mags CNC machined for 224V by CH Precision. Running them in my Origin in a MDT ACC. Feeds like butter.
Yep, I have them too but take some slight modifications to the feed lips bending them in for the skinnier case... they run better with 10rd even though you can fit 13-14.. the MDT polymer run smoother but only fit 8rd.
So after messing around with bullet seating I found that the 23.9 gr of varget works best with the 95gr smk’s at .010 jump from lands. I couldn’t test it any closer due to max mag length for the AR platform, but really didn’t need to since I’ll be happy with the .296” group.? The OAL is 2.295”. Unfortunately I forgot the chrono so will have to take a guess at speeds from last visit which was around 2650-2665fps at 300’ ASL. This will keep the bullet supersonic out to around 1200y at this level and supersonic out to 1260y at 2500’ASL, where some matches are held. Damn close to that 1300y marketing hype, and in an AR.
Rifle details for anyone trying to correlate this info:
Aero m4e1 enhanced upper and lower
Toolcraft bcg
Craddock/Rock Creek 22” heavy 6.7t 5r cut rifle barrel with 5/8 threads and a compensator
Superlative Arms AGB
PRI and ASC mags, have a max internal of 2.300”
This rifle has shot consistently .5 MOA with a variety of loads, including some factory deer rounds from Barnes and 10 Ring that I tweaked by pulling out the bullets to 2.290”. Even had one 90 gr Fusion knockoff from 10 Ring that shot .456” with this treatment. (Can’t find any heavier, accurate deer bullets to load.)
So after much thanks to many fine folks on this site for the info that they have laid out I just have one immediate question: Where the hell is all the VARGET? I live in NC and am hoping that the shop in VA that I called has a jug by the time I can drive there. There are many shops around me that carry it, but it’s all back ordered.
Rifle details for anyone trying to correlate this info:
Aero m4e1 enhanced upper and lower
Toolcraft bcg
Craddock/Rock Creek 22” heavy 6.7t 5r cut rifle barrel with 5/8 threads and a compensator
Superlative Arms AGB
PRI and ASC mags, have a max internal of 2.300”
This rifle has shot consistently .5 MOA with a variety of loads, including some factory deer rounds from Barnes and 10 Ring that I tweaked by pulling out the bullets to 2.290”. Even had one 90 gr Fusion knockoff from 10 Ring that shot .456” with this treatment. (Can’t find any heavier, accurate deer bullets to load.)
So after much thanks to many fine folks on this site for the info that they have laid out I just have one immediate question: Where the hell is all the VARGET? I live in NC and am hoping that the shop in VA that I called has a jug by the time I can drive there. There are many shops around me that carry it, but it’s all back ordered.
Need a little help.
I have no factory hornady 88 eldm left to measure the neck of the case to figure out what bushings I need.
Anybody have that measurement?
I’m planning on starting with 88 eld in brass from my factory rounds. I also ordered some starline brass and some 80 eld’s to try. It’s all in the mail and would like to get some bushings ordered so I’ll be ready to load some.
I’m using Rcbs gold medal FL die set.
Thanks
I have no factory hornady 88 eldm left to measure the neck of the case to figure out what bushings I need.
Anybody have that measurement?
I’m planning on starting with 88 eld in brass from my factory rounds. I also ordered some starline brass and some 80 eld’s to try. It’s all in the mail and would like to get some bushings ordered so I’ll be ready to load some.
I’m using Rcbs gold medal FL die set.
Thanks
No problem bud
Did you all see the new Berger bullet for the 224V
www.thefirearmblog.com
Berger Bullets Announces New 85.5 Grain Projectile in .22 Caliber -
Berger Bullets, a member of the Capstone Precision Group, announced the release of their new .22 caliber projectile. Weighing in at 85.5 grains it is the second heaviest bullet Berger offers for that caliber.
www.thefirearmblog.com 
No, I hadn’t, so thanks for that. Those look pretty interesting.Did you all see the new Berger bullet for the 224V
Berger Bullets Announces New 85.5 Grain Projectile in .22 Caliber -
Berger Bullets, a member of the Capstone Precision Group, announced the release of their new .22 caliber projectile. Weighing in at 85.5 grains it is the second heaviest bullet Berger offers for that caliber.
Yes, when it comes out I think I’m going to try them. Been wanting to comment on what all I’ve been doing with mine but life and farming. I have a deal set up when midway gets them in I’ll be notified. It should be a game changer I think.Did you all see the new Berger bullet for the 224V
Berger Bullets Announces New 85.5 Grain Projectile in .22 Caliber -
Berger Bullets, a member of the Capstone Precision Group, announced the release of their new .22 caliber projectile. Weighing in at 85.5 grains it is the second heaviest bullet Berger offers for that caliber.
I have about 1000rds or so of reloads though mine and including 500 factory ammo so about 1500rds. Been testing more on seating depths with the 80’s and still trying to get my neck tension sorted out. Was using a mandrel and have around .002” runout on case necks using and turning mandrel but turning the necks and FL sizing with the forester die without the mandrel I have less than .001” runout so it seems the mandrel is costing me accuracy. Been testing different powders as well, have been having good luck with AA2520 so far, can get well over 3000fps with AA2520with 80eldm’s without as much pressure, it seems my primers look better, not as much psi signs with AA2520 at a higher velocity than with H4895. Accuracy seems good with AA2520, this is before I realized the throat erosion. Cci450’s are still my go too, tried cci br4’s again and still crap. Have Remington primers but not really counting on them.
The Berger 85.5g hybrid vld’s have mine and a lot of ppls eye on them for sure!!
Edit....made a rookie mistake on how much throat erosion I had. I was measuring COAL with a sized shell with a bullet pushed in by hand in it, well that is not good because when you pull the shell out with the bolt and if the bullet gets into the lands at all it is very likely that the bullet will get pulled out of the case all the way or just enough to screw up your measurements, and that is exactly what happened. Sorry for the confusion
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IHFarmer07, bolt action or AR? Also, if AR, then mag length, not single loading? Good info on the runout experience you are having, another thing to look out for while reloading, more steps might not be better.
Bolt gun. Ya it’s interesting what a person learns sometimes lol. Trial and error, trial and error!!
Mid south shooters supply has the Berger 85.5’s in STOCK, got 200 coming!
Started to work on the Berger 85.5’s, the measurements with the Sinclair tool might be longer due to me possibly pushing the bullet a little too hard into the lands/rifling but the other measurement was a fired case that I squeezed the neck a little to cause more tension on the bullet and inserted into the chamber and closed the bolt on, did the same thing multiple times and came up with the same measurement every time but once so I will be going by the fired case measurement I believe. Don’t know how much I’m going to mess with these this close to rifle white tail season but we’ll see. Was working on my 30-06 in case my 6.5prc wasn’t going to show for deer season but I got confirmation of its arrival due date to be Tuesday!!!
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Did some loading on my 30-06 and Valkyrie with the Berger 85.5’s. So far I’m very pleased with today in all I got accomplished. Decided to try county bumpkin(https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/load-development-what’s-your-process.224522/) and eagle eye shooting’s way of load development to get a start finding a load for the Berger’s. I called Berger Friday and they told me some starting loads on the H4895 and AA2520. Starting load for h4895 is 22g and max of 23.5. AA2520 starting load is 23g and max 24.5.
I’m using starline brass with probably 5 loadings on them, annealed, neck turned, neck tension set with .0015 mandrel, cci450 in a rem700 BA.
So I loaded 5 rounds in each powder in .5gr increments, I started in the middle of what the said and went above that a little to try and find pressure, didn’t find it, went to the house loaded 5 more of the two powders in .3gr increments until I got to the velocity I was looking for or pressure. The last 2 rounds with h4895 was
So I loaded 5 rounds in each powder in .5gr increments, I started in the middle of what Berger said and went above that a little to try and find pressure, didn’t find it, went to the house loaded 5 more of the two powders in .3gr increments until I got to the velocity I was looking for or pressure. The last 2 rounds with h4895 was compressed slightly and the bolt was starting to stick on the 2nd last and I did not fire the last H4895. With both aa2520 and h4895 I was able to get to 3,000 and slightly above. I have two places to look at with aa2520 .3 of a grain apart that look good and 1 with h4895. With aa2520 the spots seemed to be at shots 6-7 at 2902 and 2908, 8-9 at 2930-2962. H4895 shots 6&7 2930-2948. All speeds were taken with a MSv3 and at a distance of 300yrds.
I’m using starline brass with probably 5 loadings on them, annealed, neck turned, neck tension set with .0015 mandrel, cci450 in a rem700 BA.
So I loaded 5 rounds in each powder in .5gr increments, I started in the middle of what the said and went above that a little to try and find pressure, didn’t find it, went to the house loaded 5 more of the two powders in .3gr increments until I got to the velocity I was looking for or pressure. The last 2 rounds with h4895 was
So I loaded 5 rounds in each powder in .5gr increments, I started in the middle of what Berger said and went above that a little to try and find pressure, didn’t find it, went to the house loaded 5 more of the two powders in .3gr increments until I got to the velocity I was looking for or pressure. The last 2 rounds with h4895 was compressed slightly and the bolt was starting to stick on the 2nd last and I did not fire the last H4895. With both aa2520 and h4895 I was able to get to 3,000 and slightly above. I have two places to look at with aa2520 .3 of a grain apart that look good and 1 with h4895. With aa2520 the spots seemed to be at shots 6-7 at 2902 and 2908, 8-9 at 2930-2962. H4895 shots 6&7 2930-2948. All speeds were taken with a MSv3 and at a distance of 300yrds.
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Ok, I can finally contribute something. i went out on Sunday and shot my ARC Nucleus with 26" Krieger 6.5 twist.
I fired my 1st 20 reloads and I am only going to say advance at your own risk, etc. These were loaded with 2000MR using 95 SMKs @ an OAL of 2.290, CBTO of 1.720 which gives me a jump of .050" in new Starline brass and Fed. 205M. They fit fine in my MDT mag. They were all sub-moa and showed no pressure in my rifle.
There is a published max with the 90SMK and I started .3 grains below it, but again I'm using the 95 SMK. I shot a 10 round string through the MSv3. SD = 14.1 Max 2817, Min 2767, Avg 2792.
I had another 5 loaded at that published max. This will bring up an MSv3 question later. SD = 16.4, Max 2832, Min 2798, Avg 2811. That 2832 max was the 4th round and until then we were in the single digit SD range.
I had planned on making another 5 higher but chickened out and only went .1 grain higher than the first ten rounds were loaded. So this puts us in the middle of these two sets. SD = 5.3, Max 2811, Min 2798, Avg 2802. How did it report a single digit SD in between the other two?
I am feeling like that wasn't a large enough data set or I saw something that makes people talk about 2000MR. Regardless, my issue or question with the MSv3 is that I had made up 20 of JP's Mexican match, which is pulling a 75 gr. TMJ off the Federal and seat a 77 TMK at 2.25. These shot the best groups of the day.
The first string of five was: SD = 5.6, Max 3131, Min 3118, Avg 3121. I shot something else and came back to the rest later. I screwed up and didn't reset so I ended up shooting the last 14 together. Now my SD = 14.2, Max 3161, Min 3112, Avg 3139. So I am not sure how to interpret my MSv3 function and it's rather new to me, as in its second outing. Larger group of rounds fired and higher SD, what's up MSv3? I am nearing or just over that magic 200 rounds so maybe I'm also seeing my barrel speed up a hair simultaneously? This is my first Krieger, sample size of one.
I had not shot any 90 SMK Fed. factory ammo in my rifle so I did shoot two 5 round groups. The first was right around an inch and the 2nd was around 3/4, maybe a hair less. I feel like I was shooting better for the second group but it had an odd shape, first two in one hole and the remaining 3 basically in one hole 1/4" away. I did chrono the 2nd as well, SD = 22.3, Max 2759, Min 2706, Avg 2745.
It is still hot here in Florida and last Sunday was no exception. I wish I had tried these during July or August however. I'm going to also try RL17 since I have some.
I have only shot the Federal 75 TMJs and Hornady 88 factory stuff prior to this. I wasn't shooting any of them very well, only around 1 - 1.5". I have been rushing every time I go to the range so my barrel has gotten toasty at times. Next time the Craddock Bartlein upper will be joining this one.
I fired my 1st 20 reloads and I am only going to say advance at your own risk, etc. These were loaded with 2000MR using 95 SMKs @ an OAL of 2.290, CBTO of 1.720 which gives me a jump of .050" in new Starline brass and Fed. 205M. They fit fine in my MDT mag. They were all sub-moa and showed no pressure in my rifle.
There is a published max with the 90SMK and I started .3 grains below it, but again I'm using the 95 SMK. I shot a 10 round string through the MSv3. SD = 14.1 Max 2817, Min 2767, Avg 2792.
I had another 5 loaded at that published max. This will bring up an MSv3 question later. SD = 16.4, Max 2832, Min 2798, Avg 2811. That 2832 max was the 4th round and until then we were in the single digit SD range.
I had planned on making another 5 higher but chickened out and only went .1 grain higher than the first ten rounds were loaded. So this puts us in the middle of these two sets. SD = 5.3, Max 2811, Min 2798, Avg 2802. How did it report a single digit SD in between the other two?
I am feeling like that wasn't a large enough data set or I saw something that makes people talk about 2000MR. Regardless, my issue or question with the MSv3 is that I had made up 20 of JP's Mexican match, which is pulling a 75 gr. TMJ off the Federal and seat a 77 TMK at 2.25. These shot the best groups of the day.
The first string of five was: SD = 5.6, Max 3131, Min 3118, Avg 3121. I shot something else and came back to the rest later. I screwed up and didn't reset so I ended up shooting the last 14 together. Now my SD = 14.2, Max 3161, Min 3112, Avg 3139. So I am not sure how to interpret my MSv3 function and it's rather new to me, as in its second outing. Larger group of rounds fired and higher SD, what's up MSv3? I am nearing or just over that magic 200 rounds so maybe I'm also seeing my barrel speed up a hair simultaneously? This is my first Krieger, sample size of one.
I had not shot any 90 SMK Fed. factory ammo in my rifle so I did shoot two 5 round groups. The first was right around an inch and the 2nd was around 3/4, maybe a hair less. I feel like I was shooting better for the second group but it had an odd shape, first two in one hole and the remaining 3 basically in one hole 1/4" away. I did chrono the 2nd as well, SD = 22.3, Max 2759, Min 2706, Avg 2745.
It is still hot here in Florida and last Sunday was no exception. I wish I had tried these during July or August however. I'm going to also try RL17 since I have some.
I have only shot the Federal 75 TMJs and Hornady 88 factory stuff prior to this. I wasn't shooting any of them very well, only around 1 - 1.5". I have been rushing every time I go to the range so my barrel has gotten toasty at times. Next time the Craddock Bartlein upper will be joining this one.
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Re: the MS question. What you are seeing, at least in part, is the reality of reading a small sample set vs. reading a larger sample set. That is why a statistically realistic sample set is more like 30 rounds for real SD. It is also why so many people are posting up single digit SD numbers all of the time. They shoot five rounds and say, “that’s my load. Look at that single digit SD.”
The five round sample sets are not statistically significant since it is so possible to randomly get five with a small number. Just as it is possible to get five with a high number, but to fill out that 30 round sample set and end up with a realistic number that is consistent.
The five round sample sets are not statistically significant since it is so possible to randomly get five with a small number. Just as it is possible to get five with a high number, but to fill out that 30 round sample set and end up with a realistic number that is consistent.
I thought I’d share a load that’s been working with my rifle.
Rifle info,
Action: Bighorn Origin
Barrel: 24” Bartlein 5R 1:7 twist
Mag: modified XLR .223 AICS
My load so far is once fired Hornady brass, charged with 24 grains of varget, topped with a Berger 90 grain VLD, and CCI 450 primers. My COAL is 2.390. I’ve found that the 90 VLD’s do not like to be jumped far at all and 2.390 puts me right at .010 off lands in my rifle.
The data:
The first sample of fifteen rounds, shot in five shot groups was an average speed of 2689 fps, sd of 9 and a ES of 24. In all I shot seventy-five rounds and the numbers stayed pretty much the same.
Environmental’s: 924 feet above sea level, temp 67 degrees, had wind from 2 o’clock from 5 mph with 13 mph gusts.
I took that load out to 425 yrds on steel with a water line and they grouped right around 1 MOA I think it can do better if I shoot better. At that point I was just having a good time shooting.
I only got one picture of a group at 100 yrds before the rain got the paper wet and made it fall off the target backer. I may tun the load a little more but at this point I’m just enjoying shooting it right now.
Rifle info,
Action: Bighorn Origin
Barrel: 24” Bartlein 5R 1:7 twist
Mag: modified XLR .223 AICS
My load so far is once fired Hornady brass, charged with 24 grains of varget, topped with a Berger 90 grain VLD, and CCI 450 primers. My COAL is 2.390. I’ve found that the 90 VLD’s do not like to be jumped far at all and 2.390 puts me right at .010 off lands in my rifle.
The data:
The first sample of fifteen rounds, shot in five shot groups was an average speed of 2689 fps, sd of 9 and a ES of 24. In all I shot seventy-five rounds and the numbers stayed pretty much the same.
Environmental’s: 924 feet above sea level, temp 67 degrees, had wind from 2 o’clock from 5 mph with 13 mph gusts.
I took that load out to 425 yrds on steel with a water line and they grouped right around 1 MOA I think it can do better if I shoot better. At that point I was just having a good time shooting.
I only got one picture of a group at 100 yrds before the rain got the paper wet and made it fall off the target backer. I may tun the load a little more but at this point I’m just enjoying shooting it right now.
Attachments
Weather was crap but I made it out to jump test these 85.5 Bergers. I have a bunch of CFE223 so I used this for this test and wasn’t too meticulous in my charge weight as I was in a rush and would safely assume they are plus or minus a 0.1 grain. At a tenth off and also 0.050” off they shot well and it makes me wonder if they will be similar to the 80 eld-m’s and like 0.035”-0.045” as the preferred jump. I pulled my 5th shot on each of these groups as I was watching the group come together. I haven’t shot since early spring so I have some rust to knock off. At 0.090” and 0.130” off it looked like the 90 fusion groups I got out of my setup, horrible.
Findings on Facebook using H4895 show 24.4 as max and 2840fps out of a 24” bbl. I believe I will continue tinkering with CFE223 and see how far I can take it velocity wise and also if the groups hold together. I shall save the H4895 for my red rockets.
6.5T 24” Bison Armory heavy barrel
44.8F, 94%H, 29.94inhg
Virgin starline, 26.8 grs. CFE223, GM205MAR, 85.5 Berger@ 0.010”, 0.050”, 0.090”, 0.130” jump; lands at 1.803” CBTO, 2.355”oal
1.793”-0.9” not including called flyer
1.753”-0.655” not including called flyer
1.713”-not worth measuring
1.673”-not worth measuring
Average velocity 2781fps, sd13, high2804-low2756 out of 20 shots fired. All brass looks good and this charge looks to be fairly light as the primers are still rounded on the edges and no ejector marks at all. Very light recoil and I was able to watch holes appear at 100 yards.
Top left 0.010”, top right 0.050”, bottom left 0.090”, bottom right 0.130”
Findings on Facebook using H4895 show 24.4 as max and 2840fps out of a 24” bbl. I believe I will continue tinkering with CFE223 and see how far I can take it velocity wise and also if the groups hold together. I shall save the H4895 for my red rockets.
6.5T 24” Bison Armory heavy barrel
44.8F, 94%H, 29.94inhg
Virgin starline, 26.8 grs. CFE223, GM205MAR, 85.5 Berger@ 0.010”, 0.050”, 0.090”, 0.130” jump; lands at 1.803” CBTO, 2.355”oal
1.793”-0.9” not including called flyer
1.753”-0.655” not including called flyer
1.713”-not worth measuring
1.673”-not worth measuring
Average velocity 2781fps, sd13, high2804-low2756 out of 20 shots fired. All brass looks good and this charge looks to be fairly light as the primers are still rounded on the edges and no ejector marks at all. Very light recoil and I was able to watch holes appear at 100 yards.
Top left 0.010”, top right 0.050”, bottom left 0.090”, bottom right 0.130”
Attachments
48.8F, 91%H, 29.88inhg
24” 6.5T Bison Armory long freebore Bbl
Virgin Starline, CFE223, GM205MAR, HbN coated 85.5 Berger@ 0.050” jump, 1.753” CBTO
26.8-2767
27.0-2787
27.2-2845
27.4-2845
27.6-2858
Personally I will not go higher then 27.6 grains as I had decent swipe on the cases but nothing major and about the amount of swipe I get with Federal 75AE ammo. I only shot a single round a piece to see how high I can safely go and 27.2-27.6 had the same amount of swipe. I will try loading 5rds at 26.8, 27.0 and 27.3 and test again for groups. I’m hoping there is a node at 27.3 as 2840fps is not bad.
24” 6.5T Bison Armory long freebore Bbl
Virgin Starline, CFE223, GM205MAR, HbN coated 85.5 Berger@ 0.050” jump, 1.753” CBTO
26.8-2767
27.0-2787
27.2-2845
27.4-2845
27.6-2858
Personally I will not go higher then 27.6 grains as I had decent swipe on the cases but nothing major and about the amount of swipe I get with Federal 75AE ammo. I only shot a single round a piece to see how high I can safely go and 27.2-27.6 had the same amount of swipe. I will try loading 5rds at 26.8, 27.0 and 27.3 and test again for groups. I’m hoping there is a node at 27.3 as 2840fps is not bad.
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How cold was it? Your powder charges seem really high compared to my results. You are nearly a full grain higher than me for the same velocity.
It was 72* here. I worked up from 25.1-26.3.
24" Rainier ultramatch barrel
Berger 85.5 loaded at 2.31 coal, 1.75 cbto
Virgin Starline
CFE 223
Fed 205M
25.1 - 2653 fps
25.3 - 2665
25.5 - 2689
25.7 - 2707
25.9 - 2759
26.1 - 2763
26.3 - 2808
It may be because I coat my bullets in HbN. I forgot to add that in my data I’ll edit my post.
I'd lean more to it being the difference in ambient temperature. Your post says 48.8F which I assume means degrees fahrenheit. His say 72*, which I take to mean 72 degrees fahrenheit. A 23 degree temperature swing using a notoriously unstable powder can easily account for the difference in velocity.
Ok so on the .224 road to the best round. So far the 90gr Berger and RL17 is my go to. Haven't gone to 80.5gr yet but planning on load development this spring. Anyone use this round yet?
On a side note. I tested some 88gr Hornady factory load at 500-600yds. The rounds were consistent enough but the gun wont cycle completely. (Non-adj gas block and I'm 100% it's in the right position.) No BCG sticking or failure to extract but the bolt doesnt come back far enough to grab the next round out of the mag. WTF over?
On a side note. I tested some 88gr Hornady factory load at 500-600yds. The rounds were consistent enough but the gun wont cycle completely. (Non-adj gas block and I'm 100% it's in the right position.) No BCG sticking or failure to extract but the bolt doesnt come back far enough to grab the next round out of the mag. WTF over?
I found that when I went from 90gr factory federal to 88gr factory Hornady, I had to replace the spring in my SCS buffer with the lightest spring in order to get good cycling from the 88s. You might have to go that route if you want to use factory 88 loads.
So just for kicks I just used 20rds of 60gr federal with no issues.....I dont plan on using factory ammo but this one has me perplexed.
Well finished my testing with the Berger 85.5’s and cfe223. I can’t get them to group at all and will try one more powder with them to see if I can get them to group. The first outing looked promising but that has been proven to be a fluke in my setup. Here are my results for the last outing.
16DEC2019 30F, 95%H, 29.66inhg
Once fired starline, [email protected], GM205AR, 85.5 Berger@ 0.025”, 0.030” 0.035”, and 0.040” jump
CBTO
1.779”-best group but open
1.774”-horizontal group
1.769”-horizontal group
1.764”-open group
2789avg, sd18
This avg is for 20 rounds fired. I tried GM205MAR primers to see if it would lower the sd but it stayed about the same as Rem 7 1/2’s (2804avg, 20SD 20 rds fired), and just lowered the avg speed by 15fps. I’m going to try a few rounds using imr4320 to see if this will work or not.
Reuben
16DEC2019 30F, 95%H, 29.66inhg
Once fired starline, [email protected], GM205AR, 85.5 Berger@ 0.025”, 0.030” 0.035”, and 0.040” jump
CBTO
1.779”-best group but open
1.774”-horizontal group
1.769”-horizontal group
1.764”-open group
2789avg, sd18
This avg is for 20 rounds fired. I tried GM205MAR primers to see if it would lower the sd but it stayed about the same as Rem 7 1/2’s (2804avg, 20SD 20 rds fired), and just lowered the avg speed by 15fps. I’m going to try a few rounds using imr4320 to see if this will work or not.
Reuben
I had pretty good luck at .010 (loaded at 2.32 oal) off the lands - right around .7" groups at 100. I want to say it shot best at 26.5gr of cfe223, but I'd have to look at my notes. I did not try any longer jump since I went back to the 80.5s.
I’m about to give the 85.5’s a try with Winchester StaBall. The only reason I am switching is because I can’t find the 90 gr vlds anywhere. My Origin with a 1:7 5R Bartlien was lights out with the 90 vlds over 24.1 grains of varget which pushed it at 2710 fps. The OAL was 2.320.
Here is my satterlee test to find pressure which I didn’t and they all look good to go. I will load five at 26.3, 26.5, and 26.7 to see if they are accurate. Here’s a photo of the eight shots at 100 yards. I am hoping the last four went into the tiny cluster we shall see with further testing. As long as I can keep these under an MOA and near 2700 I am happy as they are hunting bullets. These are the same bullets used in the factory 90 grain fusion option.
17DEC2019 23.7F, 86%H, 29.49inhg
Once fired starline, Rem 7 1/2, 90 RMR SBT@ 1.764” CBTO 0.040” jump, CFE223
25.1-2534
25.3-2530
25.5-2544
25.7-2631
25.9-2608
26.1-2637
26.3-2678
26.5-2678
17DEC2019 23.7F, 86%H, 29.49inhg
Once fired starline, Rem 7 1/2, 90 RMR SBT@ 1.764” CBTO 0.040” jump, CFE223
25.1-2534
25.3-2530
25.5-2544
25.7-2631
25.9-2608
26.1-2637
26.3-2678
26.5-2678
Attachments
What are you using for brass? I tried RE17 under 90gr SMKs in Hornady once fired and new FC brass and anything over 26.6 gr shows pretty serious pressure signs. And I was loading the bullets long to 2.31.
Got a chance to shoot some quick ladder tests to establish max charges in my Valkyrie. Due to time constraints I was only able to shoot at 100 yards with limited rounds down range. I picked the 80 grain Berger VLD over Superformance and H414. I haven't seen much data in this thread for this bullet or these powders and I have a ton of them, so that's what I went with.
20" Larue with 1-7 twist
80 grain Berger VLD
COAL: 2.271"
CBTO: 1.777" (Jammed 5 thou)
CCI .41 Primer
New Federal Brass (H20 - 31.4 grs)
Fired Federal Brass (H20 - 32.0 grs)
Superformance: (grs / fps)
27.0 2310
27.4 2372
27.8 2440
28.2 2465
28.6 2520
29.0 2567
29.4 2621
H414: (grs / fps)
25.0 2385
25.4 2421
25.8 2470
26.2 2520
26.6 2560
27.0 2604
27.4 2656
Results:
I was surprised to see this much vertical spread on target at only 100 yards. Several of my bolt guns shoot ragged holes over a 2.0 grain spread at 100 yards and it's not until 300 yards that you see meaningful dispersion. Not sure why that is, but not really concerned with it.
It appears that with each powder there is a low and high node with a "scatter" in between. The "scatter" shot was exactly 2520 fps with both powders (coincidence, who knows!?) and the low node is between 2372-2470 fps, and the high node between 2560-2656 fps. I was also surprised by the linear increases in velocity, approximately 49 fps per 0.4grs of powder. I did not reach any pressure signs during these ladder tests, so I will explore slightly higher charges in the next round of testing.
So what does all this tell me... Avoid anything in the 2520 fps range, and H414 produces more velocity per grain of powder than Superformance (it's more efficient?). Neither of these powders are said to be temperature stable, so in the future I'll do some testing with other powders such as Varget, N540, 8208 XBR, BLc2 and AR-Comp. I know, some of those aren't temp stable either, but I'm curious... It's also nice having two nodes in two different powders that span about 100 fps each. That tells me this round should be very forgiving and stable if loaded to the middle of a node.
The next round of testing will consist of an OCW style test to better identify the high nodes. Most likely focusing on Superformance between 29.0-29.8grs (5 groups of 4 shots, 0.2gr increments). Then H414 between 26.6-27.8grs (7 groups of 3 shots, 0.2gr increments). As I mentioned I did not reach pressure max with either powder, so loading on the higher end will let me verify the outside edge of the node. If I reach pressure before then, I'll stop.
I did load some extra rounds for sighting in and fowling the barrel. The last picture is a decent group that makes me think this rifle has potential. Oh, by the way, I HATE FLIERS! (rifle will out shoot me every day!).
20" Larue with 1-7 twist
80 grain Berger VLD
COAL: 2.271"
CBTO: 1.777" (Jammed 5 thou)
CCI .41 Primer
New Federal Brass (H20 - 31.4 grs)
Fired Federal Brass (H20 - 32.0 grs)
Superformance: (grs / fps)
27.0 2310
27.4 2372
27.8 2440
28.2 2465
28.6 2520
29.0 2567
29.4 2621
H414: (grs / fps)
25.0 2385
25.4 2421
25.8 2470
26.2 2520
26.6 2560
27.0 2604
27.4 2656
Results:
I was surprised to see this much vertical spread on target at only 100 yards. Several of my bolt guns shoot ragged holes over a 2.0 grain spread at 100 yards and it's not until 300 yards that you see meaningful dispersion. Not sure why that is, but not really concerned with it.
It appears that with each powder there is a low and high node with a "scatter" in between. The "scatter" shot was exactly 2520 fps with both powders (coincidence, who knows!?) and the low node is between 2372-2470 fps, and the high node between 2560-2656 fps. I was also surprised by the linear increases in velocity, approximately 49 fps per 0.4grs of powder. I did not reach any pressure signs during these ladder tests, so I will explore slightly higher charges in the next round of testing.
So what does all this tell me... Avoid anything in the 2520 fps range, and H414 produces more velocity per grain of powder than Superformance (it's more efficient?). Neither of these powders are said to be temperature stable, so in the future I'll do some testing with other powders such as Varget, N540, 8208 XBR, BLc2 and AR-Comp. I know, some of those aren't temp stable either, but I'm curious... It's also nice having two nodes in two different powders that span about 100 fps each. That tells me this round should be very forgiving and stable if loaded to the middle of a node.
The next round of testing will consist of an OCW style test to better identify the high nodes. Most likely focusing on Superformance between 29.0-29.8grs (5 groups of 4 shots, 0.2gr increments). Then H414 between 26.6-27.8grs (7 groups of 3 shots, 0.2gr increments). As I mentioned I did not reach pressure max with either powder, so loading on the higher end will let me verify the outside edge of the node. If I reach pressure before then, I'll stop.
I did load some extra rounds for sighting in and fowling the barrel. The last picture is a decent group that makes me think this rifle has potential. Oh, by the way, I HATE FLIERS! (rifle will out shoot me every day!).
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