Could you post a link to those parts of the websiteA scope with a Mil recticle and .1 Mil turrets will make this quest much more attianable. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a scope that will work for you. There are pleny that are around or less than $500 that will work. In fact the optics for sale section is a fine place to look for a scope. Here's the short version of how to put all this together, if you were using your .308.
Find ammo the rifle shoots well. If you can't shoot it well, find someone that can.
Get the muzzle velocity of the projectile leaving the barrel, at least five shots, average them to one muzzle velocity.
Get the ballistic coefficient for the bullet. They are available all over the place. Sierra, Hornady, even Midway USA has the ballistic coefficients listed.
The MV (muzzle velocity) and BC (ballistic coefficient) are the two key numbers to plug into a ballistic calculator.
JBM is free and it is a very good calculator that provides very solid data. It will give you your trajectory in the Mils that your recticle and turrets speak in.
Read this website about how to "drive the rifle" as so many call it. Every facet that is mentioned is absolutely correct. Read "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" over, and over until you have it memorized. It can be found in the Advanced Marksmaship unit. Which is one place you need to spend lots of time before you shoot a single round.
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Could you post a link to those parts of the website
Thanks biner
You probably should have said "every aspect of target shooting", because .308 is better for hunting large game than 6.5CM.
You probably should have said "every aspect of target shooting", because .308 is better for hunting large game than 6.5CM.
Because accuracy is irrelevant to hunting now?
No, because he said "better in every aspect", and killing large animals is an "aspect" of these rifles for many people, and .308 does a better job of killing large animals than the much lighter bullets of the 6.5CM. Either would be fine for deer, but for larger critters like Elk, the .308 is a much better choice than the 6.5. Anyone who would argue against that is obviously not a hunter.
Or just thinks that ballistic performance outweighs bullet weight for whatever it is that they're hunting.
I don't hunt, but if people are killing elk with a .270, I find it hard to believe that a .260 Rem couldn't do the job with the right bullets.
Maybe neither is ideal, but one thing I've noticed about hunters (not on this forum, but the gun shop hacks I run into on a semi-regular basis) is that bigger and badder is never enough. That's why there are people shooting at does with .300 WMs.
I think caliber choice is a constant tradeoff between ballistic performance, recoil, cost, etc. Using words like "obviously" to make the decision doesn't bode well for your opinion, which seems to suggest that the answer is self-evident.
If I had the choice of the two calibers you mention, I would probably choose the .308, but there's also zero doubt in my mind that shot placement would be easier with a cartridge that has better ballistic performance.
I am wondering why this thread exists, however, because if you have to ask the question presented by the OP, the answer probably doesn't much matter, as I doubt you'd be able to tell a difference. Until you have the skills to hit targets at longer distances, external ballistics is nothing but a fantasy.
Actually, I remember why this thread exists: the OP is a teenager. OP, get yourself a good Savage .223 of some kind and wear it out. You'll learn so much with it that you may not even need anything else. And if you think I'm too good to take my own advice, find my old thread about buying a nice long barrel AR-15 to mess with (also an option for you, but more expensive). I ended up buying one, although I haven't shot it yet (it's on the list of things to do at some point). You can have a lot of fun with .223 and it's cheap to shoot even with good bullets.
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It IS obvious and "self-evident" to anyone who hunts. Can you kill an elk with a 6.5CM? Sure, but it's certainly not a good choice, and most definitely not better than .308. I'm sure that I could kill a whitetail with a .22LR, but that doesn't make it ethical (or legal). Large animals like elk need heavy bullets that penetrate, so that you kill instead of wound. As I said, no hunter would ever argue that 6.5CM is a better choice for elk than .308.
I wasn't trying to start an argument (it shouldn't even be one); I was just trying to point out that there is an aspect where .308 outperforms the 6.5CM, and some of us do use our rifles for targets and critters.
Im building a 6.5 right now and am supper excited about it but it's hard to compete with the barrel life of the .308. as for the hunting. I have hunted elk with a .308 and my grandfather uses a 270 Weatherby but I don't think I would use the 6.5 creedmoor for anything larger than a deer.
Because, Rob, not everyone is built like you, you're a follicly challenged gorilla!! Your biceps are bigger than my thighs!!
I hope that you are well, my friend.
Neil
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On a slightly different note...
What is really heartwarming is the way this community has stepped up to the plate to help and advise this young lad in his first steps on a reallllly long road. Nobody has flamed him, and everybody has tried to give useful advice.
I wish that I had had such a great bunch of really cool "Uncles" to help me when I was starting out. I had to learn, then re-learn everything myself, which is why I have so many bad habbits and I'm so bad!
NS;
You're doing the right thing by ASKING. Read and make note of the suggestions here. Remember to make clear when you make a post that you're young and just starting out, and everyone here will be willing and trying to help you.
Shooting is a 'doing' sport. All the guys who have said "spend the money on ammo" are right. But we all know that ammo is expensive, right? Well get yourself a .22lr and try shooting that at 100/150/200 yds. that'll teach you wind reading, and it'll be cheaper. There is a long range .22 thread buried in here somewhere, have a look at that.
The really cool thing about shooting, particularly long range, is that it uses both left and right brain. It's art AND science. Most of the science you can learn from books, or here on the 'hide, but the real ART comes from getting out and shooting A LOT! You'll start to do things subconsciously. When you start doing that, then it might be time for the expensive rifle.
I was shooting at 600yds one day, I was using my used rem 700 (7mm-08- $300). Leupold Mk4 LRT 4.5 -14x scope ($1500).
Next to me was my really good buddy, shooting his purpose built competition gun. .284Win, Barnard action, Kreiger barrel, chassis type stock, S&B PM11 scope. Lets say $7000 worth of kit. Now he's a good shot, but he's not real good at reading the wind. I could stay with him with my cheap crap kit, because I read the wind better that day. The difference wasn't in the equipment, it was in the ability to read the conditions, and that ONLY comes with practice, and the great thing about that is, you don't even NEED a gun to read the wind!
Don't get sucked down the Gear Qu@@r road. A nice rifle is a great thing to have, but don't be the guy that other people talk about when they say "All the gear, no idea!"
Keep your enthusiasm, keep asking questions. You NEVER stop learning in this game. And good luck for the future. Keep us informed.
Oh, and just to answer the original question, BOTH! A man should always have a .308. But I'm going to be building a 6.5CM very soon.
Don't be blinkered by only 2 calibre choices though. I swear by my 7mm-08. It's my go-to gun. 100gn to 175gn bullets available, light felt recoil, accurate. But not much choice in factory ammo is the major downside. Like I said, READ, THINK, LEARN!
All the best,
Neil
What is really heartwarming is the way this community has stepped up to the plate to help and advise this young lad in his first steps on a reallllly long road. Nobody has flamed him, and everybody has tried to give useful advice.
I wish that I had had such a great bunch of really cool "Uncles" to help me when I was starting out. I had to learn, then re-learn everything myself, which is why I have so many bad habbits and I'm so bad!
NS;
You're doing the right thing by ASKING. Read and make note of the suggestions here. Remember to make clear when you make a post that you're young and just starting out, and everyone here will be willing and trying to help you.
Shooting is a 'doing' sport. All the guys who have said "spend the money on ammo" are right. But we all know that ammo is expensive, right? Well get yourself a .22lr and try shooting that at 100/150/200 yds. that'll teach you wind reading, and it'll be cheaper. There is a long range .22 thread buried in here somewhere, have a look at that.
The really cool thing about shooting, particularly long range, is that it uses both left and right brain. It's art AND science. Most of the science you can learn from books, or here on the 'hide, but the real ART comes from getting out and shooting A LOT! You'll start to do things subconsciously. When you start doing that, then it might be time for the expensive rifle.
I was shooting at 600yds one day, I was using my used rem 700 (7mm-08- $300). Leupold Mk4 LRT 4.5 -14x scope ($1500).
Next to me was my really good buddy, shooting his purpose built competition gun. .284Win, Barnard action, Kreiger barrel, chassis type stock, S&B PM11 scope. Lets say $7000 worth of kit. Now he's a good shot, but he's not real good at reading the wind. I could stay with him with my cheap crap kit, because I read the wind better that day. The difference wasn't in the equipment, it was in the ability to read the conditions, and that ONLY comes with practice, and the great thing about that is, you don't even NEED a gun to read the wind!
Don't get sucked down the Gear Qu@@r road. A nice rifle is a great thing to have, but don't be the guy that other people talk about when they say "All the gear, no idea!"
Keep your enthusiasm, keep asking questions. You NEVER stop learning in this game. And good luck for the future. Keep us informed.
Oh, and just to answer the original question, BOTH! A man should always have a .308. But I'm going to be building a 6.5CM very soon.
Don't be blinkered by only 2 calibre choices though. I swear by my 7mm-08. It's my go-to gun. 100gn to 175gn bullets available, light felt recoil, accurate. But not much choice in factory ammo is the major downside. Like I said, READ, THINK, LEARN!
All the best,
Neil
There are two things a 6.5 has that a 308 lacks - a combination of sectional density and velocity.
I wouldn't say a 6.5 is "better" for elk than a 308, but I also wouldn't say it gives anything up. Swedes have been killing moose for a century, and dead is dead...right?
If the 6.5mm lacked something for hunting, I seriously doubt Pat Sinclair would post as many 6.5 kills here as he does.
I wouldn't say a 6.5 is "better" for elk than a 308, but I also wouldn't say it gives anything up. Swedes have been killing moose for a century, and dead is dead...right?
If the 6.5mm lacked something for hunting, I seriously doubt Pat Sinclair would post as many 6.5 kills here as he does.
Thanks everyone im so glad that there are people like this on the hide thats why i started posting instead of just googling questions hoping someone else had asked the same one. So thank you all.
Respectfully,
The teen Sam
Respectfully,
The teen Sam
Also i know im asking a lot here but can someone post a simple lesson on how to read wind and dial it in on the scope
Dude, it's all here. Sit down for a while and read a lot. The information has been asked/given hundreds of times.
Invest in the online training series.
You may want to search a little on YouTube. There is a guy on there doing a video series on LR shooting. Good luck!
Invest in the online training series.
You may want to search a little on YouTube. There is a guy on there doing a video series on LR shooting. Good luck!
Its fool-hearty to suggest the 6.5 doesn't kill as well as a .308 Win. simply because the bullet is lighter. The truth be known, it is just as effective, if not more effective.
To the kid, change your user name to something more mature.
Here in Missouri, there are several competitions that minors can compete in. You'll need to be accompanied by a guardian to sign a waiver. Big Piney Sportsman's Club in Houston, MO has monthly matches. It would be a good starting point after you take the training course on the Hide here. Also, rather than buying an expensive gun, pick up a Bushnell 3200 10x/.1 mil/mil-dot from Midway USA, a set of quality mounts and figure out what match ammo works in your rifle. Follow LonewolfUSMC's budget build plan.
Get the idea of a TacOps out of your head. You don't have the skills associated with one. Furthermore, you may find that it doesn't suit your needs---because frankly, you have no idea what works for you yet.
To the kid, change your user name to something more mature.
Here in Missouri, there are several competitions that minors can compete in. You'll need to be accompanied by a guardian to sign a waiver. Big Piney Sportsman's Club in Houston, MO has monthly matches. It would be a good starting point after you take the training course on the Hide here. Also, rather than buying an expensive gun, pick up a Bushnell 3200 10x/.1 mil/mil-dot from Midway USA, a set of quality mounts and figure out what match ammo works in your rifle. Follow LonewolfUSMC's budget build plan.
Get the idea of a TacOps out of your head. You don't have the skills associated with one. Furthermore, you may find that it doesn't suit your needs---because frankly, you have no idea what works for you yet.
What is the utube channel that the guy does vids
TiborasaurusRex
LoneWolfUSMC
Are a couple.
Also look at accurateshooter.com all good information sources.
LoneWolfUSMC
Are a couple.
Also look at accurateshooter.com all good information sources.
Thank you, you've been a huge help
Honestly man,
It's like when you learn to ride a bike. Buy yourself a Murray or Huffy first. You will cuss it when it breaks, kick it when the chain comes off, learn to ride and fix it, even loathe it. But you will always learn the lessons from your first crappy bike. Drive the wheels off the thing. Then buy a good one.
You will appreciate that new rifle more because of the lessons learned from the crappy one.
It's like when you learn to ride a bike. Buy yourself a Murray or Huffy first. You will cuss it when it breaks, kick it when the chain comes off, learn to ride and fix it, even loathe it. But you will always learn the lessons from your first crappy bike. Drive the wheels off the thing. Then buy a good one.
You will appreciate that new rifle more because of the lessons learned from the crappy one.
That is not correct. You ever hear a 140gr Berger Hybrid hit steel at 800 yards vs a 175gr BTHP? The 140gr Berger's are hitting like a ton of bricks where the 308 needs a lot of help getting out there. Ballistic coefficients and speed have everything to do with putting down large game.
But I guess next you will tell us the 6.5 SAUM cant hang with the 300WSM? It has taken down MANY large game, including bear and elk.
Killing what? For killing bad guys, yeah, the 6.5 might be better, but either is more than enough. You don't need much penetration for humans. For deer? Either will do just fine. But for large animals like elk, it requires heavy bullets to make clean kills, because you need the penetration of heavy bullets. I'm sure that any of us could kill an elk with a 6.5. I'll bet that I could also kill one with a .223 (especially if it were at close range), but that elk would probably suffer, and it would probably take multiple shots to put it down if aiming for the vitals (one well-placed shot behind the ear might be quick). But just because it can be done doesn't make it ethical. A hunter has a responsibility to use the proper tool (and be skilled with it) to lessen the chances of wounding the animal. And no responsible hunter would argue that the lighter 6.5 bullets are better for elk than a heavier .308 bullet. It's foolhardy to suggest otherwise. "Better" is the key word there, not "can it be done?". Go to a hunting board and ask that question....it's not even a debate.
If the kid can swing a wiz bang 6.5 God bless him I can't hurt his shooting. When he is married and has a wife and kids would be the worst time to blow money. Sounds like none of the older guys want a Kid to have better gear then them. Go for it kid but please lose the Seal title you may be able to afford cool stuff but that title MUST be earned.
No responsible hunter is going to attempt an 800 yard shot on elk with either a 6.5 or a .308. We are talking about animals that can weight up to 1,000 pounds. A .22-250 makes a decent ding when it hits steel, but that doesn't make it an ethical elk cartridge. Penetration is the key, not velocity. That requires heavy bullets that stay in one piece. And to repeat what I already said, "no responsible hunter would argue that the lighter 6.5 bullets are better for elk than a heavier .308 bullet..... "Better" is the key word there, not "can it be done?"
Well., technically, its all bout penetration, bullet expansion, and permanent wound cavity SPECIFICALLY to the vital organs. Its like real estate....location, location, location of the permanent wound cavity
I still disagree. The 6.5 is more then capable. Actually, more then one person here is saying your logic is incorrect.
I can have several others attest that the 6.5 bullet selection is more then capable of taking large game. Hell, any ballistic gel test can prove the penetration power of a 6.5 bullet is SUPERIOR to a 30cal.
* and furthermore, it makes no difference the shot distance if the location of the shot is well placed. That with the right caliber (which is why 308 would fail) will result in a full freezer.
Penetration is equivalent to velocity and terminal ballistics.
You cannot argue a caliber is "better" for hunting when said caliber (308) can't offer performance out to distances that the other caliber (6.5) are more then capable of reaching, easily.
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DamageInc said:
No, for penetration you need sectional density.
And a 140gr 6.5mm bullet's sectional density tends to be that of 180gr+ 30cal bullets.
So to get equal sectional density the 308 needs a heavier bullet, which makes it slower, which means the faster 6.5 penetrates better than the slower 308.
Why? Because SCIENCE.
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Correct! And it has been proven many times.
Again...
Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell
How big do you want??
If you don't know of him, Google it!
Sorry to kind of hijack your thread Sam, but WDM Bell will add to your education anyway!
Neil
Amazing how something that was "self evident" yesterday has been called into so much question. Maybe Damage has learned something about critical thinking today.
Aside from the sectional density argument, the ballistic performance of the 6.5 alone is at least 20% better (in terms of BC) than that of the .30 bullets that can be used in .308.
If that leads to 20% better shot placement, even an inferior bullet can do a better job.
I'm sure you're all the masters of reading the wind, but I am not, especially when I don't get any sighter shots, and so that's an advantage that shouldn't be ignored.
All the payload and power in the world does you no good if you can't place the shot.
Higher velocity and higher bc = better shot placement even for the best of shooters.
And it makes an even bigger difference for those of us who are not.
Aside from the sectional density argument, the ballistic performance of the 6.5 alone is at least 20% better (in terms of BC) than that of the .30 bullets that can be used in .308.
If that leads to 20% better shot placement, even an inferior bullet can do a better job.
I'm sure you're all the masters of reading the wind, but I am not, especially when I don't get any sighter shots, and so that's an advantage that shouldn't be ignored.
All the payload and power in the world does you no good if you can't place the shot.
Higher velocity and higher bc = better shot placement even for the best of shooters.
And it makes an even bigger difference for those of us who are not.
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Yes, all of those. Sorry if my answer was an oversimplification.
OK, as Garandman pointed out (and I should have as well, but I thought this stuff was common knowledge), it's more complicated than just penetration. We could get great penetration with FMJ, but we also want a large wound cavity and the weight to smash bone and keep traveling in the same direction. Why? Because terminal ballistics are SCIENCE with many more factors than sectional density. Ideally, that bullet is going to go through the vitals without hitting any bones, but in the real world, that trophy animal might not give you a perfect broadside, and we also have wind and human errors (or scopes that got bumped, or whatever).
The 6.5 is the go to hunting caliber in Europe for everything including Moose .Bell even took elephants with it. Any guide will tell you the chances of a well placed 6.5 are far greater than a hunter putting his monster mag where it needs to be.Bullet construction in the U.S. is what has held the under 30 cal. back as most were loaded with Varmint bullets. Hunter used these for larger game and the caliber got the bad rap.
As I already said a few times, just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be, or that it is the better choice. You don't need to convince me of the need for proper bullet placement over caliber selection. I've mocked many people for shooting whitetails with a .300WM, and seen many taken cleanly with .223 at close range (although I personally wouldn't do it). And hunting ethics are certainly a personal choice (when you get beyond what the law requires). I would take a 800 yard shot in 20mph winds on a chuck, even though it carries a low percentage of success and a high percentage of a wounded chuck making back in his den. Some might say that's unethical, but I would still do it. But would I take the same shot on a majestic elk with a .30-06? Hell, no. I won't shoot a deer or other large animal without near certain chances of a clean kill.
DamageInc said:
Indeed, terminal ballistics are SCIENCE...which leads us to modern hunting bullet design.
Dude its the internet. Instead of spinning, just admit you were wrong with your rather condescending sweeping generalization, take yer razzin' by everybody like a man, and go on with life.
See, that's where the period should have been. Nothing more need be said.
I just don't get this whole "I can shoot an Elk at a Mile and a half" SH*T. The skill in hunting is STALKING into the animal. If you're shooting at more than 250-300 yds, you're using shooting skill to compensate for a lack of stalking skill. Just my 0.02c
Please note, I'm not denigrating anyone who has the shooting skill to carry off that kind of shot, I just don't feel that it's ethical. Just my opinion.
N
You mean my razzin' by people who don't hunt, and read something on the internet, so it must be true? Nah, I've been shooting animals for over 30 years, so I'll take my personal experiences and observations over some non-hunter's opinion on the internet. And I was not wrong, and I'm not "spinning". Seriously, if you think you are correct, go pose this question on an elk hunting board, and post the replies here. "What caliber is a better choice for elk, 6.5CM or .308Win?"
Well, at least he did say "not a SEAL" in his post. Was it a bad idea to use "Seal" in his name? Absolutely, and he should change it.
He preferred the 7x57, he used the 6.5 but made far more kills with the 7.
It says you are from St. Louis(but it also says you are a navy seal). If so, we shoot F-Class at St. Louis Benchrest club at least once a month. Come observe a match and you will learn quite a bit. If that isn't up your alley, I suggest looking into smallbore shooting. There are a lot of fundamentals to pick up before you worry about what particular cartridge is best. If fact, that is a total waste of time at this point.
Right,
Let's get Sam's thread back on track here.
Sam,
If your "Big time gun enthusiast" Uncle re-loads, ask him to load some heavy for calibre bullets for your .243. Most factory rifles should handle up to 100grn loads, but you might want to ask him if he can load some 105grn Lapua Scenars, and see if your rifle likes them. If not, there are a ton of good 90-95 grain bullets. this would give you a good BC and light recoil. This should take you out to a very respectable distance, and you should be able to shoot lots.
You're 13 years old, you haven't finished growing yet, so don't beat yourself up with lots of .308 recoil. You can do that later when all of your adult musculature is in place.
So, now having thought about this rationally, if you're dead set on getting a custom built gun, go with the 6.5CM. At your age, you don't need the recoil of the larger calibre. Learn the "Fundamentals of Marksmanship", and you will be able to drive any rifle. Wind reading is the art that you will learn with time.
I would strongly suggest though, you think HARD about getting a good mil/mil scope, mounting that on your .243, and put the rest of your money into ammunition for practice. Shoot that combo until the barrel melts, then take the scope off, get a new gun, (in whatever flavour suits you, because by then, you, like EVERYONE ELSE on the 'Hide will have formed your own opinion on what is going to be best FOR YOU) mount the scope and you're GTG!
HTH (Hope this helps, but you being a teenager probably know more acronyms than I ever will!)
Good shooting!
Neil
Let's get Sam's thread back on track here.
Sam,
If your "Big time gun enthusiast" Uncle re-loads, ask him to load some heavy for calibre bullets for your .243. Most factory rifles should handle up to 100grn loads, but you might want to ask him if he can load some 105grn Lapua Scenars, and see if your rifle likes them. If not, there are a ton of good 90-95 grain bullets. this would give you a good BC and light recoil. This should take you out to a very respectable distance, and you should be able to shoot lots.
You're 13 years old, you haven't finished growing yet, so don't beat yourself up with lots of .308 recoil. You can do that later when all of your adult musculature is in place.
So, now having thought about this rationally, if you're dead set on getting a custom built gun, go with the 6.5CM. At your age, you don't need the recoil of the larger calibre. Learn the "Fundamentals of Marksmanship", and you will be able to drive any rifle. Wind reading is the art that you will learn with time.
I would strongly suggest though, you think HARD about getting a good mil/mil scope, mounting that on your .243, and put the rest of your money into ammunition for practice. Shoot that combo until the barrel melts, then take the scope off, get a new gun, (in whatever flavour suits you, because by then, you, like EVERYONE ELSE on the 'Hide will have formed your own opinion on what is going to be best FOR YOU) mount the scope and you're GTG!
HTH (Hope this helps, but you being a teenager probably know more acronyms than I ever will!)
Good shooting!
Neil
So you don't believe the opinion of people on the internet, but I should?
Right.
I'm guessing if I asked question on an 'elk hunting board', a whole shitload of people who wouldn't be caught dead in the field with anything less than a 300WM and have never shot let alone hunted with a 6.5mm rifle would say "308" because they subscribe to the same ignorant "40 grains of weight and .048" diameter of bullet makes it betta" argument you do.
Click the Google link in my signature line and type in 'psinclair 260'. Look at a few threads with pictures of all the stuff he has killed with a 260, the ballistic twin to a Creedmoor. Then come back with a straight face and say the 308's superiority is "self evident".
I'll even get you started.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-hunting-fishing/102910-my-gap-260-rocks.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-hunting-fishing/197747-260-rem-vs-black-bear.html
RTFQ.
He's already asked how to change his username. He gets it. He understands.
I just don't have the skill to tell him how, 'cos if I did I would have changed mine back to my old handle!
N
you need a few books / web sites to get it all. Im new to long range shooting as well and im almost done reading a book called:
Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting by Bryan Litz, I would highly recommend it to anyone, but you will need more then just this book as its not really a basic long range book, more a intermediary or advanced book as it assumes you already know about dope, ladder testing, mil / moa etc.
Go to settings and then edit profile. You can change your username there.
I changed my username to "the salmon" because my name and last name initial is "Sam n." so it sounds like salmon
