As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Lowlight]

No it changed nothing.. the Top 10 was pretty well identical from the match before, the 308 only match proved nothing. Nobody from the middle of the pack suddenly found themselves in the top 10 of the match.

There was no change, which is why we never did it again.

 

[paindoc]

There must be some form of shooter ability/classification or the fun factor goes right out of the window.
Sure there will be sand bagging but the addition of additional parameters to shooter classification such as number of matches, previous finished standings, etc
Basic statistical analysis of previous scorings will give you some idea of a shooters abilities.

Going to a match and watching Joe Pro kick ass is entertaining only so long

 

[fireguyty]

Again, I hate to be negative, but why should the maximum or average distance shot have anything to do with points awarded? Target size or positional/ barracade shooting has much more to do with difficulty than range. Ask any shooter if they would rather shoot an MOA target at 1000 yards or a 1/2 MOA target at 500 yards and see what the result is. Also, lots of matches love to move everyone into an extreme close range like 8-12 yards and do some paper shooting.

My point is that some of the funner shoots I have ever shot been in are at the Phoenix TPRC who's maximum range is right around 700 yards. I don't see why less points should be awarded for winning this than another who has unlimited range available to them.

About the number of shooters attending relating to the points awarded, I think you are on to some thing here. It is certainly easier to win a shoot with 45 people than one with 125. The only thing that worries me about this is that it may encourage MD's to cram more shooters in their shoot than they can accommodate resulting in long periods of standing around.

Ty

 

[Lowlight]

I could see an average of your last 5 positions, but honestly I have seen too many people fluctuate, they are Top 15, 30, 25, 12, etc... really some matches are easier to establish a pattern than others.

You have guys here who have shot the monthly Raton Match for 6 to 8 years continuously, they score really high. A lot guys can get tuned towards a particular match and then go to one outside their normal routine and not do as well.

Maybe in Year 2, we have Shooter Classification but honestly I would first want to see how it plays out without it.

If someone can figure out a balanced way to do it, I am all ears, but I have yet to hear it.

 

[poison123]

I agree with Zak. I'd rather see no prize table vs a Random prize table. There's no "incentive" to some people to get better if prizes are pulled randomly off the table.

This would be too broken in my opinion, "Heck one the Benchrest matches locally, the person that competed that had the worst gear got first pick." Whats to stop someone from purposely tanking a match to walk off with a 3k+ rifle or scope?

I'll be interested to see where LL takes this...but ultimately I don't care. I just want to shoot matches, I don't care about prizes....I just want to shoot matches so one day I'm good enough to beat George

 

[paindoc]

No it changed nothing.. the Top 10 was pretty well identical from the match before, the 308 only match proved nothing. Nobody from the middle of the pack suddenly found themselves in the top 10 of the match.

There was no change, which is why we never did it again.

Exactly.

So perhaps considering a classification system that separates shooters on their previous scores and thus their abilities. I don't understand how just classifying/separating shooters based solely on MV accomplishes much.

In my opinion, if your intent is to grow the sport then changes directed to encourage new shooters to participate and experienced shooters to get better is to separate them on ability. MV is a start but it does no thing to address the core problem that you addressed earlier.

 

[Lowlight]

It's a fact distance increases the variables and the biggest variable is wind... There are plenty of guys that clean barricade stages. Run & gun stuff is fun, but honestly that is up to the match director.

You have to remember, I was doing the SHC for a long time, Rifles Only wrote the book on these type of matches. the average shot was inside 600 yards, and yet there were days when at 1000 yards only 3 people would hit the plate. Not as much anymore thanks to wind cheaters, but the fact is, distance is harder to manage them a barricade at 100 yards on a 3 MOA dot.

Terry Cross would clean the Dot Drill, and there are people who are much more fit than others than can speed through a stage, where other guys can hit every shot they try but not finish.

There are ton of variables and reasons "why" ... why do I want to include distance, because this is Precision Rifle, wind is our greatest factor, not a barricade. Just look at the bags and accessories guys carry for barricades and other obstacles, they have huge pillows to "game" the barricade.

Distance matters, a guy with a wildcat can shoot targets 800 and in and never hold off the plate. I am proof of that, I have done it. So it balances the equations. Heck to be perfectly honestly those 8 yard shots can be done with an handgun, why am I am weighing that again ?

I get it, you don't like it, but honestly I see it as a factor, particularly your ability to manage the wind.

I like the idea of the average, but to be perfectly honest, it's such a small factor, it's not worth complaining about. If the possible for my example is 74 points, the distance only accounts for max of 10... is that honestly a game changer ?

 

[Zak Smith]

Perhaps we need the Affordable Classification Act (ACA), which will ensure that all Americans have access to affordable top-5 match placement.

 

[Lowlight]

I have yet to hear the way to classify a group of shooters before they shot ?

How many matches to establish an average and how do you do this without it being up the shooter to decide where they want to shoot ?

Muzzle Velocity slows the gear race down, it puts similar equipment together while still allowing everyone to participate and to prove themselves against something that might be considered a better rifle. Image the new shooter with a 308 that beats a 6.5CM inside the Limited Class... that is a motivator. By putting all the really good equipment together, via speed, that is a line everyone can relate too, instead of randomly assigning someone a personal classification.

What happens when a top ranked 3Gun guy who is sponsored steps into Precision Rifle and shooter his first match with a Top end rifle, is he considered a Novice because he never shot a long range match before ?

In order to classify a group of people you need a measurement to use, we don't have that measurement yet, at least nobody has presented a viable argument for one.

 

[Rob01]

There must be some form of shooter ability/classification or the fun factor goes right out of the window.

I strongly disagree. Some of my funnest matches were the first few years I was shooting the sport and not doing well. It forced me to work and do better. As I got better I felt a stronger degree of accomplishment. There were no classes as there were no "pros" just guys who wanted to shoot. People make way too much about wearing a pretty shirt. Shot before I had one and will shoot after I don't. Jump in and shoot.

Classifying weapons/velocity like in USPSA is a better option I think. Shoot what you want but you will be in that class.

 

[paindoc]

I strongly disagree. Some of my funnest matches were the first few years I was shooting the sport and not doing well. It forced me to work and do better. As I got better I felt a stronger degree of accomplishment. There were no classes as there were no "pros" just guys who wanted to shoot. People make way too much about wearing a pretty shirt. Shot before I had one and will shoot after I don't. Jump in and shoot.

Classifying weapons/velocity like in USPSA is a better option I think. Shoot what you want but you will be in that class.

I agree to a point. But if the intent is to grow the sport , then more people will jump in and shoot if they can gauge themselves amongst their peers and maybe even take home a cool prize cause they shot better than their novice ir intermediate friends that day.

 

[Zak Smith]

+1 Rob01's post. That's right on.

 

[Rob01]

I agree to a point. But if the intent is to grow the sport , then more people will jump in and shoot if they can gauge themselves amongst their peers and maybe even take home a cool prize cause they shot better than their novice ir intermediate friends that day.

That's what you are not getting. Everyone shooting that match is your peer. We all like shooting rifle matches. Some have done it longer but no one walked in shooting top 5. They worked. And if you talk to any of the "top guys" they should help you with anything you need. If not then they are dicks and you don't want to know them anyways.

The sport was and is growing. People who ask if they should watch a match first I always tell them hell no! Get your rifle and go shoot. Best way to learn what you need to work on and what your gear needs to do. You don't like getting a crappy prize then work hard and do better. It's not rocket science.

 

[paindoc]

No. I get it. I really do. I understand and agree with your logic. But if the goal is to grow the sport then changes have to be made. You can say we are growing. Indeed that is true. But by what annual%?
To use the personal computer business model as an example. Not until Gates and then to a larger extent Steve Jobs totally redefined the industry and drastically bucked trends did the pc and now the personal smart device did that industry really take off.
I don't know if that is a great analogy or not but my point is that if major end points or large changes in goals are the objective then small changes and minor adjustments are not what is needed.
Now since I think I here you say that the current system works well for the most part then yes I agree don't change a thing. Why would you?
If the goal is a vast change of positive growth and participation is wanted then major changes are needed. Don't shoot the messenger, but its not like our sport enjoys the participation of many. He'll, I probably would hate it if it did. But o would like it to be seen as a little more mainstream and enjoyed by more
I agree with you rob01 that the best prescription for getting better is to jump in and compete with the big boys. I did that last year for the first time and love and still going back for more. However for many others that process is intimidating (wrong or right) and this the sport will not grow until that factor is attenuated.

 

[fireguyty]

It's a fact distance increases the variables and the biggest variable is wind... There are plenty of guys that clean barricade stages. Run & gun stuff is fun, but honestly that is up to the match director.

You have to remember, I was doing the SHC for a long time, Rifles Only wrote the book on these type of matches. the average shot was inside 600 yards, and yet there were days when at 1000 yards only 3 people would hit the plate. Not as much anymore thanks to wind cheaters, but the fact is, distance is harder to manage them a barricade at 100 yards on a 3 MOA dot.

Terry Cross would clean the Dot Drill, and there are people who are much more fit than others than can speed through a stage, where other guys can hit every shot they try but not finish.

There are ton of variables and reasons "why" ... why do I want to include distance, because this is Precision Rifle, wind is our greatest factor, not a barricade. Just look at the bags and accessories guys carry for barricades and other obstacles, they have huge pillows to "game" the barricade.

Distance matters, a guy with a wildcat can shoot targets 800 and in and never hold off the plate. I am proof of that, I have done it. So it balances the equations. Heck to be perfectly honestly those 8 yard shots can be done with an handgun, why am I am weighing that again ?

I get it, you don't like it, but honestly I see it as a factor, particularly your ability to manage the wind.

I like the idea of the average, but to be perfectly honest, it's such a small factor, it's not worth complaining about. If the possible for my example is 74 points, the distance only accounts for max of 10... is that honestly a game changer ?

Of course you are right. However, you are inadvertently punishing clubs who just don't have access to that kind of distance. Those clubs do the best they can with what they have and as a result get creative and tend to have the funnest matches.

About the 8 yard shots, its much easier to shoot a period point on a piece of paper with a pistol, but you have a precision rifle that typically doesn't focus down to 8 yards and requires 500 yard dope to properly hit. But this is besides the point, which is 5 shots at 8 yard targets would mess up your average distance.

These are very relative distances. This year I shot 10 yards at the TPRC, 12 yards at the TBRC, and 8 yards at the Oklahoma OTS (who's maximum distance was 1081 yards if I recall).

Is it a game changer? No. It does make a difference though. With your points system if I won Vegas this year (again, I was AMD) I would have gotten 50 points for a win (45 shooters), 6.5 points for 644 yards, and finished with 56.5 points.

On the other hand, if I had shot the SHC this year (please forgive any bad information on your shoot as this is off of memory) and finished 75th, I would have gotten 50 points for the finish (out of 125), 11 points for distance + points for other weapons + points if I PAID for the train up (honestly I can't remember if there were multiple weapons or a train up). The end result is that a guy in the 40% gets 10-20 more points than a guy that wins a national level shoot.

My point is that I like your system, but am trying to help refine it.

Ty

 

[lash]

I also agree with Rob01 on this and I've yet to shoot my first match (soon though...very soon). Sure I like winning free stuff, but I like to think that I won it, not that I got it because I'm the new guy in town. I want to shoot a match because I KNOW it will help me by identifying my weaknesses and then I'll practice to get better. I really think that Frank has the right idea here, but then I'm too new to know what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[paindoc]

Why not consider a classification based on abity or even something more simple like total number of sanctioned matches previously competed in past?
The main objective is to entice the new shooter to shoot those first matches. Allow the less experienced shooter to compare their scores with others in their own level of experience.
I see no harm from this and it intuitively sounds more inviting that jumping in with the guys with the fancy shirts and $$$$$$ rigs.

 

[Lowlight]

The bitch of the Cup was, on the 1st day we had 40MPH winds, day 2 had 20mph winds and day 3 10...

So I bring my 6mm to your range with targets inside 700 how hard is it for me ? No wind call ever to worry about. In FLA at the Grind I never held off the plate. That removes an important consideration.

So if I removed the distance what stops a guy from saying, "but I hit a UKD at 1080 in a 38MPH wind how come that is worth the same? "

the offset swing works both ways, generally speaking a regional match is different from a national one.

Its not a punishment, it's an offset. What about the local Prairie Dog match here, 50 shooters, max distance 550 does that deserve the same rating?

how else do you award difficultly ?

 

[Lowlight]

Also moving forward the cup won't have a paid train up I am just opening up the day before to anyone to shoot. Then that night will be the brief and start

 

[paindoc]

Perhaps using statistics one could derive some coefficient factor for each match based on historical data.
Well not Frobe I'm sure if enough historical data from previous matches can be obtained then a relative difficulty factor can be given for each match or perhaps at the very least for each geographic location at the match is held that. For instance various golf courses around the United States relatively accurate par ratings based on a fairly large number off data points of how many shots it takes to hit and sink that particular hole.
Obviously you are an expert in this area and I am obviously not, but perhaps some sort of coefficient of difficulty factor can be attributed to each match provided it has occurred or has been competed on in the past and that cofactor can then be a multiplier for the participants score.

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

OK let me chime a little more. I am not sure if I have as much experience as Zak (I have shot over 20 years in USPSA, some IDPA, 3-gun matches, carbine matches, steel challenge matches and also ran state and regionally matches in the military and of course tactical rifle matches or what some call sniper matches), but I have seen different ways to run or set up some kind of scoring or classification system.

As for the chrono, I have seen it done several ways. The chrono can be a stage. Done at many matches that I have shot. You could do it while you are zeroing. Or another thing you can do is have the chrono at one of the stages and before you shoot that stage you shoot across they chrono. More to come.

 

[Lowlight]

Look at it this way, there is only one SHC and you can shoot multiple regionals.

That evens it up decidedly.

You can shoot Vegas, Phoenix, etc, and get more points, the Cup is 3 days and a bigger commitment.

I am not even gonna consider historical data, it's not worth it. For every case someone will have something outside the line they want in.

There red is no reason to break it down further and further, instead the goal should be to help the group rise together

we can have a women's class, kids, handicapped, seniors, military, first time, last time, 100th match club... Get the idea.

 

[Bigwheels]

I'll throw in an observation here. I started my "match carrier" as a MD up here in NW Wa. I had only heard of 1 other match in the state, & it was on the "dry" side. So I decided to put on a match myself. To my surprise, I had about 20 guys show up. Everyone had a blast. There were no prizes, & no rules. Shoot what 'ya brung, & hits score points. My second match I put in the extra effort to get some prizes, etc, & again everyone had a blast. But there was 1 guy that showed up with another who competed in my last one. I didn't know anything about him. It wasn't till I was doing the scores that I saw he hadn't hit a plate all day. Turns out he was a novice, & his group started on what was later termed the "gangster" stage where there were 2 tgts @ 300, & 400 yds that were shot from a berm with the rifle on its side. His 1st shot of the day had scoped him badly , & he had tried to adjust the turrets to compensate for the cant, & ended up a full rev off the rest of the day. (He wasn't the only one either) I felt terrible. So I think it should be all the MD's responsibility to have a few matches strictly for novice shooters. They could be paired up with the experienced shooters (who don't shoot against them) & their job is to advise/help the novice so they can have a soft landing in their 1st competitions. Had I known the relative skill level of this guy I would have done something similar. As it is he never returned. I think this would get more of the guys "on the fence" to show up, see how much fun it is, & thereby grow the sport.

 

[AtOne]

That's what you are not getting. Everyone shooting that match is your peer. We all like shooting rifle matches. Some have done it longer but no one walked in shooting top 5. They worked. And if you talk to any of the "top guys" they should help you with anything you need. If not then they are dicks and you don't want to know them anyways.

The sport was and is growing. People who ask if they should watch a match first I always tell them hell no! Get your rifle and go shoot. Best way to learn what you need to work on and what your gear needs to do. You don't like getting a crappy prize then work hard and do better. It's not rocket science.

Completely agree Rob, This sport is about personal improvement and each match whether someone did great or poor they took something good away from it knowing what worked well and what they need to work on for the next one. Painting the sport beige so that someone new can feel like they can be competitive their first time out doesn't do anyone justice.
At our monthly matches we have new people at each match some feel their pretty experienced at shooting and by the end of the day realize that this sport is nothing like anything they've ever done and usually the scores show it, But the awesome thing is that their back there next month to try it again !
The challenge of doing well for yourself is the big take away, that and they had a ball doing it !
Don't separate the skill levels, people will still keep coming back because they enjoy it anyways.

As for scoring and averages I think an easy way to accomplish this would be to take all the stages at a match and add up the total yardage for longest distance for the stage and have a percentage based off that number for the match totals. I.E 6 stages 100, 530, 420, 300, 20, 800 = 2,170 yards. You can use averages from other matches you guys have put on to see what percentage number makes sense to give it a value.
A good example would be a two day match with a 4,340 yardage total would score 50% more points value than the 2,170 yard one day match. That way it gives weight to placing well at the larger match vs. a smaller one day match.

Pick from the prize tables should be earned, Although it is pretty cool when there's a few random drawings for sure.

Frank a free day before the match is HUGELY awesome !! That's a great step in the right direction for keeping things affordable for everyone.

 

[paindoc]

Does anyone know the following:

Number of regular/active users of this site. For discussion sake contributes more than 5 posts per year or some other minimal board participation

Number or PRS registrants

Number of PRS active shooters. Active defined as at least 1 completed match in a year

Number of total center fire rifle matches in USA per year. This one might be tough. Best guess likely. Frank might have a good handle on this.

My point is that the number of shooting enthusiasts who use this site and who are active PRS shooters is extremely small.
I would also venture to guess that there a a lot of precision centerfire enthusiasts who don't use the site and of those a very tiny number actually have shot a match.

Frank. If I understand your point is that PRS has not done much lately to foster growth of this sport. At the very least the potential for growth is HUGE!!!

I have tried to get people to go to a match with me but few want to jump in their. Frank I am with you that a different system needs to be employed.

 

[Jon Lester]

I would be interested in seeing a gas gun class. With the strong class of gassers coming on, a lot of guys have them and history has shown, while accurate, they don't win matches. How many top shooters field one and how many times do they make top 10?

 

[AtOne]

One more thing on speed classifications. I think it will work well using the honor system for the smaller regional matches especially the first year.
Having the larger matches Chrono is definitely worth the time, Yea there will be gamers but at least it can be minimized a little.

 

[fireguyty]

The bitch of the Cup was, on the 1st day we had 40MPH winds, day 2 had 20mph winds and day 3 10...

So I bring my 6mm to your range with targets inside 700 how hard is it for me ? No wind call ever to worry about. In FLA at the Grind I never held off the plate. That removes an important consideration.

So if I removed the distance what stops a guy from saying, "but I hit a UKD at 1080 in a 38MPH wind how come that is worth the same? "

the offset swing works both ways, generally speaking a regional match is different from a national one.

Its not a punishment, it's an offset. What about the local Prairie Dog match here, 50 shooters, max distance 550 does that deserve the same rating?

how else do you award difficultly ?

This is Vegas the wind blows here. Want to know why? California is next door and that state sucks!

Seriously though, ours was a national level PRS shoot by invitational only limited to 48 shooters not a regional shoot. Difficulty is relative to target size and distance in combination. But don't take my word for it, ask Dustin Morris, Jim See, Berry, Bryan Yeung, Ryan Kerr, Tim and Regina Milkovitch, Vu Pham.....so on if holding on the plate worked, and if wind was not a factor. I shot at Oklahoma in the middle of a wind farm two months ago with a bunch of the same guys. Ask them about level of difficulty.

I agree, separate local, regional, and national level shoots by some sort of point shaving, but don't make the big regions with smaller ranges, that put on national level matches, and who's local volunteers that aren't out to make a profit from "train ups" suffer.

Ty

 

[Lowlight]

[MENTION=995]Jon[/MENTION]-lester

i could get behind a gas gun division but honestly the only way I see it working is if the shooter uses it all season. If they alternate it's just another weapon system.

 

[Lowlight]

@fireguyty

you still didn't answer anything ?

How many Vegas matches are there ? And really what constitutes a national match in this case, the people who attended. They shoot more than 48 shooters here at the local matches every month?

I get it, it's your home field you're attached but are you saying local matches with 50+ shooters don't have small targets! or challenging courses of fire.

How often can you shoot a match a year in Vegas ? Just because the PRS called it a national match how do you define that ?

What is your defining factors that translate in a balanced fashion?

I see the balance as you have limited shooters, most National matches are right around 100 people now. I see the distance as a factor, most nationals are consistently up to 1000 yards or more and shoot more than one stage at that distance. As far as barricades, close in targets, etc, everyone is pretty much shooting this, even small local events? What unique stage do you offer? To call it a big national match.

 

[Zak Smith]

IMO the "stature" of the match has to do with competitor draw (local or from around country/world), length of match (1 day vs. 2-3+ day), overall sponsor support (ie value of prize table), and the "quality" of the stages (for lack of a better term). I don't know if there could be hard and fast rules but if you look at the SRM vs. the SHC, there are differences in at least 3 of the 4 categories.

 

[Jedi]

<style type="text/css">P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }</style> The only way to mitigate the equipment race is make it performance based, a velocity based classing will not prevent folk from attempting to buy X's
If you can fig out a way to handicap folk based on performance solely similar to golf system, then you put everyone on a level playing field. Which I thought was your goal?
An individuals index can be based on numerous factors to include, performance, cal, velocity, barrel length, as many or few weighting factors can be used as required
Your index would change based on your performance and equipment used thus regardless of skill level or equipment. Even a newbie with an off shelf 700, that shot well could beat a sponsored guy shooting a high $$ rig. The handicap system used in golf does exactly that, if you could apply that to this then I think you achieve your goal. Using velocity alone thou not I,m sure if you can.
Hopefully some understand the handicap system as used in golf and can grasp what I,m trying to convey

 

[fireguyty]

@fireguyty

you still didn't answer anything ?

How many Vegas matches are there ? And really what constitutes a national match in this case, the people who attended. They shoot more than 48 shooters here at the local matches every month?

I get it, it's your home field you're attached but are you saying local matches with 50+ shooters don't have small targets! or challenging courses of fire.

How often can you shoot a match a year in Vegas ? Just because the PRS called it a national match how do you define that ?

What is your defining factors that translate in a balanced fashion?

I see the balance as you have limited shooters, most National matches are right around 100 people now. I see the distance as a factor, most nationals are consistently up to 1000 yards or more and shoot more than one stage at that distance. As far as barricades, close in targets, etc, everyone is pretty much shooting this, even small local events? What unique stage do you offer? To call it a big national match.

I still didn't answer anything?...I did not realize I was asked a question.

As far as the rest of your post, you have put a lot of question marks where I would expect different punctuation marks to be. I am unsure how to respond, and suspect you have been drinking heavily as I have been tonight

We have a reputation of putting on a quality match. The PRS asks us to participate. However, we have limited range and resources. We know that we can only put though a certain number of people, and so we screen them to get the number of people that we can honestly put through a quality match with a minimum of down time (we shot 200 quality rounds in just under 9 hours on two days).

I hear you, you have more than 48 shooters in a local. We regularly have 35+, but unlike in our national, we don't have guys coming from Louisiana to Washington.

How many Vegas matches are there? 12 locals, one per month, but only 11 this year due to the VPRC, and no locals shot the VPRC.

i have shot 3 national level matches this year, the most shooters was 75, not 100.

I have no defining factors, but simply disagree that I can get more points from getting bottom 40% in your match than winning a recognized national match.

Look man, I get it. You swing a heavy axe! You are looking to change things up and I have no doubt that you will. If I had my way, you and the PRS guys would put your heads together and come up with something that would better the non bench rest LR shooting community at large. However, you have asked for input from the members. Would would you prefer to get another "I have never shot a match, but you are doing a good job Frank!". Or, "I appreciate what you are doing, how about this?".

Ty

 

[fireguyty]

IMO the "stature" of the match has to do with competitor draw (local or from around country/world), length of match (1 day vs. 2-3+ day), overall sponsor support (ie value of prize table), and the "quality" of the stages (for lack of a better term). I don't know if there could be hard and fast rules but if you look at the SRM vs. the SHC, there are differences in at least 3 of the 4 categories.

Very well put.

Ty

 

[Lowlight]

How does a handicap get calculated when every match is different.

There is no standard round count, number of stages or par per course. Technically speaking every single match would have a different handicap and if the match director said they were gonna shoot 20 stages with 100 rounds and poorly ran the match and only 15 stages and 75 rounds were shot, that handicap would not work.

Plus to figure your handicap the course has a rating as well as a slope number. So we are back to dual rating ranges based on range and difficulty. So we'd have to assign every match a rating and curve.

 

[Lowlight]

[MENTION=40779]fireguyty[/MENTION]

Raton a monthly match shoots more than 50+ shooters many who travel from different states, are they a national match?

By by your own admission you have limited resources, as do many others so what makes your match worth the same as the Cup ?

Matches are getting better all the time, the fact the PRS needed numbers and you guys allowed them to host their guys doesn't make it a national match. K&M puts on multiple matches and there are several people from other states who attend, are they all national matches.

I am not looking for you to kiss my ass, but saying our club with limited resources that can only host a limited number of shooters deserves equal billing and points, because we put on a good match, makes no sense.

Read ad my post on the golf handicap, even they rate courses. A good match is not enough.

 

[JasonB]

No it changed nothing.. the Top 10 was pretty well identical from the match before, the 308 only match proved nothing. Nobody from the middle of the pack suddenly found themselves in the top 10 of the match.

There was no change, which is why we never did it again.

That isn't quiet true... but it did give a new shooter a chance. It did give me a chance, I was first place after day one. Being new to shooting and one of my first out of town matches it helped level things out. I did have the wheels come off day 2 but there were some things out of my control on that... Mostly me though.

Simple fact is anyone can be a home range hero ... See it in NorCal all the time.

If you are a poor shooter you will shoot poor with 2800 fps or 3200 fps.

So you break things up into divisions and then what... Top shooters will still shoot top in that division.

My .308 175smk runs 2805... But you wouldn't see me run that because me .260 at 2800 will out perform it.

There is a reason the NFL doesn't play college teams. Different talent levels.

There should be realistic expectations on new or moderate lvl shooters when they enter these comps when the possibility of shooting against "pros" !

Expanding the comps getting local matches rolling is killer idea and having a template to do so will be a big help. Wether it grows or not will be up to the people in the club and quality of members within. SoCal had some major issues and they splintered and whatever else happened.

Trying to rank people from different ranges with different COF has no real value.

 

[JasonB]

NorCal only had 85 shooters if I remember right for the 2012 Surfire Innvitational does that mean it wasn't a National match because it didn't hit 100?

 

[Lowlight]

JasonB

you have 2 choices in rifles what was it like when you had one ? There are a lot of people who can't afford more than one. Insert them into a match today with everything open, no holds barred. The thought process when they drive home and we're smoked by a 6mm. Now take that guy and say within a limited div you faired much better. Speed matters if it didn't the top guys wouldn't bother.

The matches are still open, it's in the eyes of the TRL it changes. You said you don't play NFL teams against College teams, well right now what do you think is happening. The only concession a new shooter has is being told he's new and expected to suck. With a division you can give them an attainable goal because if we want to be honest unless they spend more money no amount of experience will get them inside the top 20. They can rise in a limited division.

You our did make me laugh when you said you were leading 1/2 way. Lol if I had a nickel. You could have said after the first stage you were winning and been just as accurate.

 

[Lowlight]

JasonB you're being a dick, I said close to 100 shooters

there is a big difference between 48 and 85.

most National matches are right around 100 people now

 

[fireguyty]

[MENTION=40779]fireguyty[/MENTION]

Raton a monthly match shoots more than 50+ shooters many who travel from different states, are they a national match?

By by your own admission you have limited resources, as do many others so what makes your match worth the same as the Cup ?

Matches are getting better all the time, the fact the PRS needed numbers and you guys allowed them to host their guys doesn't make it a national match. K&M puts on multiple matches and there are several people from other states who attend, are they all national matches.

I am not looking for you to kiss my ass, but saying our club with limited resources that can only host a limited number of shooters deserves equal billing and points, because we put on a good match, makes no sense.

Read ad my post on the golf handicap, even they rate courses. A good match is not enough.

Ok, I get it, the PRS sucks and we are just a filler. What other matches represent the West coast? I can name 2. NorCal TBRC and Phoenix TPRC. Any other areas that represent 57 million people, some of whom may be interested in non bench rest LR shooting?

How many people do you think we could get if we did it as you do it? You take anyone that will show up. Does that make our match any less cool or valid because we can't or won't? Is your match better than ours? Why, because you have been doing it so long? In my experience, in 14 years in the fire service, the guys that say "I know better than you because I have been doing it longer" are the guys that should go out to pasture and are no longer in touch with current affairs.

Basing every thing off of the SHC is the pinnacle of existence which qualifies everyone that can afford to travel to the middle of BFE in the middle of a week for 4 days to shoot 240 rounds as the standard is just ridiculous.

Ty

 

[Lowlight]

Clearly, change the subject and call me names because I have been doing this longer and have attended matches across this country continuously since 2001 ...

I expected several PRS types to come on and attack me ... Typical.

I won't stoop to your level but nice to know I can count on you all to be predictable.

The Cup has been doing it right for a long time and not just in WY. We set the bar, that much is clear.

 

[NorCal Vu]

I think the piece of having an entity that would help new match directors and clubs square their stuff away is a good thing.

I probably work with about a dozen people a year on trying to get new matches and clubs going around the country. It is no small feat and is a bitch if you don't have a solid foundation to work off. NorCal has always given any information we had upon request to new clubs and MDs wanting to make a run at it.

PRS has flaws and if what Frank is considering goes live, it will also have flaws as there are pros and cons to any type of system.

Personally, I think the Vegas guys did a great job and will continue to grow their club and events out there. Yes, they only had 48 shooters, but as an MD I rather have 48 happy shooters than 65 irritated ones. This was their 2nd year doing this type of event and I think they can easily handle 60 to 70 shooters with their crew and facility. They ran a smooth show and I had a great time.

As for what defines national level, I think its a combo of number of shooters and what level of talent you have on the roster.

 

[JasonB]

JasonB

you have 2 choices in rifles what was it like when you had one ? There are a lot of people who can't afford more than one. Insert them into a match today with everything open, no holds barred. The thought process when they drive home and we're smoked by a 6mm. Now take that guy and say within a limited div you faired much better. Speed matters if it didn't the top guys wouldn't bother.

The matches are still open, it's in the eyes of the TRL it changes. You said you don't play NFL teams against College teams, well right now what do you think is happening. The only concession a new shooter has is being told he's new and expected to suck. With a division you can give them an attainable goal because if we want to be honest unless they spend more money no amount of experience will get them inside the top 20. They can rise in a limited division.

You our did make me laugh when you said you were leading 1/2 way. Lol if I had a nickel. You could have said after the first stage you were winning and been just as accurate.

Everything matters, Quality of the platform, the ammo, the shooter... when I had the one rifle back in the .308 SHC days having everyone shooting the same helped level the playing field for me. In the end the better shooters won out obviously. That is what you are trying achive here right? a more level playing field.

Having speed division/classes will not change the quality of shooters. What is to stop Team GAP / Surgeon from just shooting the 2800fps class? So they start winning there... do we make a 3rd classification?

What you are saying is that they top shooters are only top shooters because they run speed calibers? Nothing to do with any ability to drive a rifle? But by your own admission with the .308 only match, the top shooters still shot the top scores?

That is what I am saying about new shooters ... they probably shouldn't go to "National Events" and expect to place top 1/2. Not saying they shouldn't go but have realistic expectations. Yes right now "college" shooters playing against the "pros" but so what ... Any given sunday anything could happen. Maybe they place better than some of the "professionals" ? Gives them a big motivation to keep improving ... and so forth.

And yes I would have been just as accurate about being 1st place after the first stage, but it has more meaning after the first day and more of a loss after the 2nd day.

I'm glad you got laugh and completely missed the point about how making it a .308 only match helped me place the first day.

Im not with the PRS never have been, know almost nothing about it...

TYou could have just said yes the 2012 Surefire Invitational was a National Level Match. All because the amount/quality of shooters, as well as the organization/direction of the MD, the excellent ROs, Spotting/Support Staff, COF and sponserships were all "National Level".

But typing JasonB you're being a dick is much easier.

The amount of shooters doesn't make anything National... just like having 15 shooters wouldn't have made 2012 TBRC "National" or having 100 at a poorly ran / designed match would make them "National"

 

[Lowlight]

No your completely missing the point and clearly have not read this thread.

You didn't see people acknowledge the intimidation factor.

Absolutely ability matters, but there is a difference between being blow out and being able to progress in way that doesn't reward a gear race to a higher degree.

You can try putting words in my mouth but I have been very clear. The matches don't change, you still shoot against the best with no change but you're ranked in the division so it's closer to what you're running. You admitted yourself shooting a 308 only matched help you. It gave you a good feel. Say you never had that opportunity.

Why did I have to say yes the Surefire was a national match? I never mentioned it, you incorrectly attempted to put words in my mouth and say I said something I didn't. Of course it was. On many levels, tell me how making a local monthly an invitational match with 48 shooters is the same as the Surefire match.

They made an FTR class in F Class because people couldn't compete and it was a straight gear race. They are now discussing splitting it again because they did nothing to curb the gear race so they need another split.

Nobody said a damn thing about new shooters attending a National Match, you're picking a fight without reading anything at all but me trying to tell one guy something. If you read anything else you wouldn't be coming off like you are fixated on stuff that has no bearing what I am proposing.

Youre completely off base and attempting to twist things with no bearing on what is be said. And your reading into something that was not said. If you don't want to add to this, don't stick your nose where it doesn't below.

Gear matters, it's been proven and why other disciplines in shooting limit it.

 

[Lowlight]

You should go back and read what he doesn't like the fact a match that shoots to 1000 yard gets 10 points and their match to 700 gets 7 points.

You guys in your cry baby emotional bullshit, the scoring has nothing to do with the match, or the quality it's just a distance scale because this is precision rifle and shooting 1000 yards is overall more difficult than shooting 700 yards. It's a simple adjustment.

You people are really the reason this sport is so fragmented as if I attacked your match on a personal level because I weight distance. The proposal has zero bearing on the match it only applies to this who want to part of the league. So get off you high horse.

I made example after example and all that ignored because you guys felt personally attacked when you were not.

Look in the mirror your the reason this stuff even needs to be addressed. rob01 is right a lot ways. Back in the day this was never an issue because there wasn't a bunch of cry babies without a clue running around. There are hundreds of locals matches all over the world that are well run and fun. Welcome to party..., we have a match here in CO every single week. They are well run and fun and shoot a lot of people. That and $20 will get you into one in OK, FLA, TX, ...

log off, buzz off and don't come back if you don't like it. But first try reading what you are arguing about before sticking your 2 cents in...

 

[JasonB]

I read the thread entirely, I am not picking any fight, I am offering feed back...

You want to make a Tactical Rifleman League with 2 different divisions ... One 2800 fps and below ( ideally for new shooters ) and one for 2800+ ( for the "pros" or higher geared folks ). You want to put in place a handicap system to where shooters during matches are awarded points based on their placement in relation to the number of shooters at the match. ( From what I gather local matches will be included in the league standings? or is it just rated matches that have TRL approval? ) Never quiet figured it out.

What you have not acknowledged is what happens when / if better shooters start shooting the <2800 division and they keep winning and always seeing those same folks in the top 10 of that division. How has that changed anything? I understand it is supposed to be a division where newer people or people without the barrel burner can compete. That is good. Eventually the same people will win that division too.

I have no idea who you are talking to in your last post I assume it is me because we are the only two typing right now... Yes I know Ty doesn't like the point scale, cool no big deal... you make the rules for your TRL and if you want it that way awesome.

I thinking point ranking based on placement is fine a good idea, if it isn't based on the a different number of shooters attending. Figure out what the min number of shooters needed to be League match and award points for only those shooters. ie say you require 40 shooters to be a league match and you get 60, well only top 40 get points. can either do it low ball style or high ball. ( 1st 1pt - 40th 40pt or 1st 40pt - 40th 1pts ) whoever has most or least points based on how you want the scoring to go is league champion

bonus points for shooting longer distances is not a good idea, Because if someone MD wants to make a match 1 shot at 1k then do the rest 700 and closer, why would should they get the extra points ?

bonus points for multiple weapon platforms is not a good idea, Or if your range doesn't allow for multiple weapons / run and gun type COFs you lose points

bonus points for train up days is not a good idea... If you cannot attend train up you lose points.


The sport is so fragmented because people only want to do it their way... when feedback/concerns are provided it is ignored or attacked instead of addressed.

Seems to me the sport would be better off if local clubs / matches were supported and brought up. Because their people could train and shoot and when they feel like they might have a go at a bigger event they do.

Tell the local clubs this is the COF we did, how we did it, why we did it, and let them get to training.

You will need really proactive MDs and people in the clubs to try to get their people up and running for these big events.

There is no cry baby bullshit going on here ... no need to look in the mirror, I could care less if I shoot against 3200fps 6mm Creed that doesn't care about the wind.

I show up to shoot whatever the house rules are at the time.

 

[fireguyty]

log off, buzz off and don't come back if you don't like it.

Understood.

Ty

 

[Lowlight]

If you read the whole thing you would have clearly saw the regional match (read local) discussions.

The training was also discussed and I agreed that an adjustment was necessary, lowering of the value, probably closer to .25 per 4 hours of class, there is a specific reason for that.
1. It's an incentive for people to attend classes
2. It's a way facilities recoup money lost on matches
3. Rewards self improvement

the multiple weapon value is simple, many matches shoot a combination of firearms. Might be as simple as a rifle and handgun. The point value given doesn't make or break anyone. It's an extra 2 points. It's another way to help weight larger matches that generally do this routinely. It also encourages proficiency in multiple platforms.

If a match director (who has no dog in the standing) adds 1 shot at 1k to skew someone else's standing how good do you think that match would be. I don't recall awarding points for the match director ?

I also said said I liked the idea of the average range shot, and was considering that. If you read the thread you saw that, but clearly you focused on the parts that were argumentative. Especially considering some matches are adding 1 or 2 shots at farther distances considering the average distance overall is a better idea.

Reading the divisions, if you read the thread you saw where I said I hoped the Teams (read pros) would populate both divisions. The point of the division is to allow those with similar gear to compete with something that is not a blow out. And I gave examples. I don't care who populates the top spots, I care that a guy with an LTR doesn't feel blown out of the water and doesn't have to buy a new rifle to be competitive. Again if you read the thread you saw the numbers are dealt with after the fact and have zero bearing on how the match is run. A 308 competing inside 2800 is more competitive that competing in an open division. This is proven in F Class and other disciplines. It's not perfect but it's not meant to be, it simply meant to be overall more competitive.

Since your reading has holes in it, consider this. At the next Nor Cal match, one day, monthly, whatever you have, when a shooter gets registered, simply ask them their MV. On one page next to the shooter number put everyone below 2800 and on another put the ones above 2850. Hold your match as normal, don't change a single thing. But when you get home put each page in order as if they were shooting a separate match. See if it changes the order just a little. See if the last place shooter is a little closer to reaching the first place guy on the same page. (By score, is the point difference closer than the overall open spread) it's just about giving a guy something to strive for.

You might be reading but I find hard to believe you understand the feeling out there or what we are trying to accomplish. It simple a way to rank yourself against the competition like every other shooting sport does. All of them have divisions and classes but us.

 

[JFComfort]

[MENTION=40779]fireguyty[/MENTION]

Raton a monthly match shoots more than 50+ shooters many who travel from different states, are they a national match?

By by your own admission you have limited resources, as do many others so what makes your match worth the same as the Cup ?

Matches are getting better all the time, the fact the PRS needed numbers and you guys allowed them to host their guys doesn't make it a national match. K&M puts on multiple matches and there are several people from other states who attend, are they all national matches.

I am not looking for you to kiss my ass, but saying our club with limited resources that can only host a limited number of shooters deserves equal billing and points, because we put on a good match, makes no sense.

Read ad my post on the golf handicap, even they rate courses. A good match is not enough.

The match we did in November was the 2013 Vegas Precision Rifle Challenge. The match was a participant with the Precision Rifle Series. We had shooters from all over the country that is why I say “national”. We also exclude locals so we can pool resources and focus on putting on a great match for the shooters from out of town. We had very talented shooters participate and I agree with Vu that adds to the matches “luster” so to speak. It would be great if you could make it in 2014, we would love to have you.

After going through this thread I think Ty nailed it, “you swing a heavy axe and want to change things up” and that is fine. From what I have read in this thread I agree that competing with the PRS isn’t a problem. Often competitions is good, this is America after all. But you talk about growing the sport and community. Once I factor that in, I think working with the PRS and other entities to grow the number of matches which one can participate in would be very effective. Now as far as the particulars go I would need to leave that to others. I’m just sharing my opinion and my remarks are not meant to incite or offend. I think Vu also brought up a great point, by supporting the growth and creation of new clubs will also greatly grow the number of people participating in our sport. I can attest, the support and help from AZ LRPRS and NCPPRC has been both valuable and greatly appreciated.

I would like to keep things creative and evolving. I think the PRS offers that with the different matches that participate in the series. You can go from shooting the Wash in Arizona, to paper on a 1000 yard range in Northern California. How you would develop scores and rankings would take serious consideration. Anyway the main point I am trying to make is that I think working together and cooperation is going to be the best formula for successes.