Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

[aur0ra145]

Howdy,

The Mosin Nagant bug was killed off recently by an AR-1500 dollar rifle. However, I happened across the Classic Arms website and they claimed to have real (factory refurbished) Mosin Nagant 91/30 PU snipers for sale.

Any word on if these are the real deal? Last time I went to look at PU's, the guy behind the counter swore it was an original PU sniper rifle, but the receiver said it'd been made in 1928...

If these things are the real deal then I'll have to make room next to the other Mosin's and Enfield's for it in my gun safe.

 

[experthunter017]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

The 91/30 Pu snipers did not come into play until 1932 and between 1932 and 1945 only about 185,000 were made. The final year was 1947, ( well at least for the russians) MOst of these rifles sat in inventory, Almost all were arsenal/refurbished. MOst of all the PU snipers imported into the united states claim to be oringial but most have been made by putting nonoringal parts onto the rifles such the bolt with the turn bolt handle. The biggest part to these rifle are the scopes, as the soviet union faded away from the 91/30 they were taken the scopes off these rifles and when the mosin nagant hit the world market dealers would bought these rifle and the scope seperate and then the dealer would put the scope on the rifle and claiming to be a oringinal 91/30 Sniper. There are VERY VERY few ORINGINAL 91/30 snipers out there. Are they there?? Yes, buy they are rare. but as you know you can still buy these rifles with a scope and bolt from that era but the chances for these being the oringinal parts are very very slim.

Just check ALL the serial numbers but dont hold your breath.

good luck i hope this helped

 

[Joop]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Yes, they are the real thing. They have been refurbished and will likely have mostly force matched parts, but they're all original, wartime parts. Check out the forums at Gunboards and you'll find a bunch of them. People have been mostly happy with them and I think they're quite a bargain for a "real deal" sniper rifle.

ETA: I see that Experthunter and I were typing at the same time, but I'll confirm it again that these are the real thing. This batch was recently imported by InterOrdnance. AIM surplus got a batch of them and they sold out in just a few days. Classic has this batch, and Royal Tiger (somehow owned/affiliated with IO, the importer) has the rest. I would agree with Experthunter that there are tons of fakes/repros out there, but these aren't those.

 

[aur0ra145]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Sounds good, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll do a little write up once I shoot the rifle.

 

[Strive4More]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Not trying to thrad hijack here but I'm running into an interesting issue. I've checked the inventories of the above name suppliers plus a few more and it seems NOBODY has the crates of 91/30s available for purchase anymore. Seems kinda strange that everyone is out at the same time. Is there an issue in getting them imported? The LGS who is in a not to named TV reality show is trying to sell Round reciever Izzys for $180 a piece. When I asked him about it he said that thats what he's paying and nobody can get em for $90 a piece anymore. I quickly told him about AIM and he changed his tune rather quickly. So whats the deal guys?

And I cant wait to hear your review on these PU's. If the crate thing falls through I'll have a bit cash and nothing to spend it on...

 

[Joop]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

If $180 is his price (assuming that's after a markup, of course, because we know he's not selling them at actual cost), my guess is that they may be Century imports. It's been a few months since I've received a flyer from Century, as I haven't sent them a copy of my renewed C&R FFL, but the last one I saw had regular round receivers for something like $129 as a wholesale price. However, if a vendor were to buy in larger numbers, I'm sure there would be a break on that. AIM and J&G are good examples, as they've had them (CAI imports) listed at prices well under that, for quite some time. Century has imported 91/30s in the greatest numbers, by far. However, PW and Liberty Arms are some of the newer importers and their prices seem to have held close to what we've been used to seeing. I know there are crates still available. A friend of mine just got one from a local vendor, who had just got it from the importer. I would have to go back and check on who that was, but the point being that they're still out there. So, I don't entirely buy into that story/price as being any kind of new standard.

About two years ago, I spoke with a distributor that told me there were warehouses full of crates on the east coast, and shiploads of containers still waiting to be cracked. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of them. Availability may be starting to slow down, as the demand has probably been at an all time high in the last couple years. But, when places like AIM keep getting them in and are keeping their prices under a hundred dollars for the "average" guns, I find it hard to believe that they are drying up. Not to say that it won't happen some day (and possibly even soon), but I don't think we're there, yet. That's my take, anyway.

Also, I think anybody trying to sell a wartime Izhevsk rifle for over a hundred bucks is going to have a difficult time doing so, unless there's something very special about it (new bore, unique markings, ex-sniper, etc.). The market is pretty much flooded with them, even if they aren't importing them anymore.

 

[Strive4More]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Thanks Joop! Yeah it sounded kinda fishy to me so I backed off the purchase.

 

[ACK]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

I recently acquired a Classic Arms/IO/MO91/30/Russian from a local shooter
Rifle is a Tula, Scope is a Krasnogorsk (aluminum). Receiver was stamped with the scope s/n. I pretty much bought it because of the scope.
Receiver is stamped with the Cn/Ch identifying it as a sniper. All s/n match. Bent bolt weld appears rougher than expected.
Scope mount is an aftermarket, too good of a condition to be war era, it has the arrow inside a triangle (Izhevsk?)
Shot it last weekend, Mil Surplus, best group was around 3" My
take away:
Modern optics have come a long way 3.5X, no coating, no click adjustments, no milrad, off center reticle, no parallax adjust
Recoil in a relatively light rifle is "interesting"
Trigger pull is heavy, long not excatly smooth, lots of overtravel
Iron sight require adjustment (left)
Ergonomics (what is that?) No cheek rest, main contributor to my large groups, needed to find the reticle after firing. Lots of parallax error, difficult to find the optimum position.
It was fun shooting an old weapon, appreciate what others accomplished. I need to clean the optics, work up some reloads, perhaps get a cheekrest, I think this could be an moa rifle. If not, what the heck, I am launching lead.

 

[Strive4More]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

The Boyds stocks seem to fix many of the ergonomics issues inherit in the system... or just leave it the way it is and at least you'll have better standoff using it as a club if you run outta surplus ammo (Hey it could happen..) in the Zombie Apocalypse.

 

[Devious6]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

I'm new here - know Joop from another forum - and have oe of the rifles that came from the same batch as the Classic snipers - mine came from AIM. These rifles are similar to the M1 carbines that you find now - 99% went through at least one refurb since WWII and most several. The Classic snipers are as genuine as those M1 carbines.

I've now got 3 - a CAI repro; a re-born 1942 Izhevsk ex-sniper that now sports a '42 Progess scope that I had reworked by George Tossan for competition, and a '43 Tula that I got when AIM had them in stock.

The re-born ex-sniper is a tack driver - now I need to work with the Tula to see what she can do with hand loads.

 

[Strive4More]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Devious are you running the factory stock or did you sporterize it at all? Are you shooting surplus 147 grain or some of that funky home brew?

 

[Devious6]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

To compete in the CMP-sanctioned Vintage Sniper competitions, the rifle has to be in "as issued" condition - can be a repro but has to look and function as an original. So, my PUs are all in issue stocks.

Here's the one I'm using for competition.

It is a 1942 Izhevsk and was an ex-sniper that I restored. The gunsmithing was done by George Tossan - a recognized guru with these things. It carries an original 1942 Progress scope.

For competition, I'm hand-loading my 174 gn .311s. My shooting partner has been testing this weight and powder mix - but he is using .312s. We both use 43.5 grains of Varget powder. To get competition accuracy, you should go to hand loads. The consistency is amazing.

Here's an example. I had a digital powder scale toast itself while I was loading some shells to zero this rifle. I had 3 rounds that got mixed in that had less than 43.5 gns of powder. Can you find them?

My final 5 rounds were at the top center bull - 4 normal loads plus 1 under-weight.

 

[Strive4More]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

Damn that is one beautiful Mosin! If I had something that looked that good I dont think I'd ever have the heart to mess with it. God did it right the first time.

 

[Devious6]

Re: Classic Arms 91/30 PU sniper

This is my 1943 Tula - it is from the same source of snipers that Classic is selling. Some that people got were a little prettier, but I was really pleased with what I received. I haven't put as much range time into it yet but it shoots well with MILSURP. The scope on this one is also a '42 Progress.

My shooting partner in the Vintage match was shooting his AIM sniper and he scored very well.

 

[50 sniper]

91/30 sniper

Yes, they are the real thing. They have been refurbished and will likely have mostly force matched parts, but they're all original, wartime parts. Check out the forums at Gunboards and you'll find a bunch of them. People have been mostly happy with them and I think they're quite a bargain for a "real deal" sniper rifle.

ETA: I see that Experthunter and I were typing at the same time, but I'll confirm it again that these are the real thing. This batch was recently imported by InterOrdnance. AIM surplus got a batch of them and they sold out in just a few days. Classic has this batch, and Royal Tiger (somehow owned/affiliated with IO, the importer) has the rest. I would agree with Experthunter that there are tons of fakes/repros out there, but these aren't those.

I just picked one up and its a dog with a bad bore. I didn't expect much more form an I/O import but it does shoot OK. I have read a bunch around the Internet on these and if they are real that still remains a big question. I am a member of Gunboards but I take what they say with a grain of salt. They always believe what their sponsors say and Classic is a sponsor. I know Vic and that group have been wrong with some of their speculations in the past. So I guess I'll just have fun with mine for now and not worry if its real.

 

[Mike Radford]

The 91/30 Pu snipers did not come into play until 1932 and between 1932 and 1945 only about 185,000 were made. The final year was 1947, ( well at least for the russians) MOst of these rifles sat in inventory, Almost all were arsenal/refurbished. MOst of all the PU snipers imported into the united states claim to be oringial but most have been made by putting nonoringal parts onto the rifles such the bolt with the turn bolt handle. The biggest part to these rifle are the scopes, as the soviet union faded away from the 91/30 they were taken the scopes off these rifles and when the mosin nagant hit the world market dealers would bought these rifle and the scope seperate and then the dealer would put the scope on the rifle and claiming to be a oringinal 91/30 Sniper. There are VERY VERY few ORINGINAL 91/30 snipers out there. Are they there?? Yes, buy they are rare. but as you know you can still buy these rifles with a scope and bolt from that era but the chances for these being the oringinal parts are very very slim.

Just check ALL the serial numbers but dont hold your breath.

good luck i hope this helped

This post is so full of misinformation I must correct some of it.

First, the PU production began in 1942, not 32. Production was very large. The Hungarian M52s were made in 1953 and 54 so production did not end in 47. Soviet production was low after 1944. In 1942 Tula made 2020 PUs and Izhevsk made 12,728. In 43, Izhevsk made 159,600 and Tula 59,112. In 1944 Izhevsk made 127,010 and Tula made 24,362. That is near 400,000 rifles so Soviet snipers are not rare. Yes, most were refurbed or made into ex-snipers but tens of thousands remained in ready for use or for use by places like Korea an Nam. Most countries refurb their rifles that is why original M1Cs and A4s are not common. Nothing unusual about that. These sellers mostly state that these rifles are refurbished. If they were original as made in 42-44 should they cost $550? That would be crazy. They are a steal for what they are.

There are thousands of correct refurbished PUs in US hands now. They were not put together in the US and they did not have their scopes off and later replaced. They had been warehoused for all these years, many in Police inventory and border guards. There are also guns put together in Ukraine and the US plus the Century build rifles from about 1994 using SA marked Finn rifles, many with dates that PUs were not even made. These are replicas, not refurbished PUs. Figuring out what is what is not that complex. Anyone who wants to know what to look for read gunboards or post some pictures. It will be a rare example that can not be determined whether it was born a PU.

The PEs began in 1932 with focus adjustable scope and top mount. Production at Tula, on rifles which received special attention to fit and finish and accuracy testing. Production was 749 in 1932, 1347 in 1933, 6637 in 1934, 16,082 in 1935, 13,363 in 1936 and 12,503 in 1937. PEM side mounts began in 1938 with 19,433, 35,476 in 1939, 7970 in 1940. With the over 52,000 SVT snipers not working out well in 41 and 42 Tula made another 6,811 PEM side mounts in 1942 and Izhevsk made 31,689.

 

[Mike Radford]

The 91/30 Pu snipers did not come into play until 1932 and between 1932 and 1945 only about 185,000 were made. The final year was 1947, ( well at least for the russians) MOst of these rifles sat in inventory, Almost all were arsenal/refurbished. MOst of all the PU snipers imported into the united states claim to be oringial but most have been made by putting nonoringal parts onto the rifles such the bolt with the turn bolt handle. The biggest part to these rifle are the scopes, as the soviet union faded away from the 91/30 they were taken the scopes off these rifles and when the mosin nagant hit the world market dealers would bought these rifle and the scope seperate and then the dealer would put the scope on the rifle and claiming to be a oringinal 91/30 Sniper. There are VERY VERY few ORINGINAL 91/30 snipers out there. Are they there?? Yes, buy they are rare. but as you know you can still buy these rifles with a scope and bolt from that era but the chances for these being the oringinal parts are very very slim.

Just check ALL the serial numbers but dont hold your breath.

good luck i hope this helped

This post is so full of misinformation I must correct some of it.

First, the PU production began in 1942, not 32. Production was very large. The Hungarian M52s were made in 1953 and 54 so production did not end in 47. Soviet production was low after 1944. In 1942 Tula made 2020 PUs and Izhevsk made 12,728. In 43, Izhevsk made 159,600 and Tula 59,112. In 1944 Izhevsk made 127,010 and Tula made 24,362. That is near 400,000 rifles so Soviet snipers are not rare. Yes, most were refurbed or made into ex-snipers but tens of thousands remained in ready for use or, for use by places like Korea and Nam. Most countries refurb their rifles that is why original M1Cs and A4s are not common. Nothing unusual about that. These sellers mostly state that these rifles are refurbished. If they were original as made in 42-44 should they cost $550? That would be crazy. They are a steal for what they are.

There are thousands of correct refurbished PUs in US hands now. They were not put together in the US and they did not have their scopes off and later replaced. They had been warehoused for all these years, many in Police inventory and border guards. There are also guns put together in Ukraine and the US plus the Century build rifles from about 1994 using SA marked Finn rifles, many with dates that PUs were not even made. These are replicas, not refurbished PUs. Figuring out what is what is not that complex. Anyone who wants to know what to look for read gunboards or post some pictures. It will be a rare example that can not be determined whether it was born a PU.

The PEs began in 1932 with focus adjustable scope and top mount. Production at Tula, on rifles which received special attention to fit and finish and accuracy testing. Production was 749 in 1932, 1347 in 1933, 6637 in 1934, 16,082 in 1935, 13,363 in 1936 and 12,503 in 1937. PEM side mounts began in 1938 with 19,433, 35,476 in 1939, 7970 in 1940. With the over 52,000 SVT snipers not working out well in 41 and 42 Tula made another 6,811 PEM side mounts in 1942 and Izhevsk made 31,689.

 

[aur0ra145]

Holy necro-thread Batman!

Also, for those wondering. I had a 1944 ex-sniper that I sent off to George Tossan who Devious6 suggested. Mr. Tossan did a wonderful job and the rifle shoots great. I took 2nd in a vintage sniper match a couple months ago.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

This post is so full of misinformation I must correct some of it.

First, the PU production began in 1942, not 32. Production was very large. The Hungarian M52s were made in 1953 and 54 so production did not end in 47. Soviet production was low after 1944. In 1942 Tula made 2020 PUs and Izhevsk made 12,728. In 43, Izhevsk made 159,600 and Tula 59,112. In 1944 Izhevsk made 127,010 and Tula made 24,362. That is near 400,000 rifles so Soviet snipers are not rare. Yes, most were refurbed or made into ex-snipers but tens of thousands remained in ready for use or, for use by places like Korea and Nam. Most countries refurb their rifles that is why original M1Cs and A4s are not common. Nothing unusual about that. These sellers mostly state that these rifles are refurbished. If they were original as made in 42-44 should they cost $550? That would be crazy. They are a steal for what they are.

There are thousands of correct refurbished PUs in US hands now. They were not put together in the US and they did not have their scopes off and later replaced. They had been warehoused for all these years, many in Police inventory and border guards. There are also guns put together in Ukraine and the US plus the Century build rifles from about 1994 using SA marked Finn rifles, many with dates that PUs were not even made. These are replicas, not refurbished PUs. Figuring out what is what is not that complex. Anyone who wants to know what to look for read gunboards or post some pictures. It will be a rare example that can not be determined whether it was born a PU.

The PEs began in 1932 with focus adjustable scope and top mount. Production at Tula, on rifles which received special attention to fit and finish and accuracy testing. Production was 749 in 1932, 1347 in 1933, 6637 in 1934, 16,082 in 1935, 13,363 in 1936 and 12,503 in 1937. PEM side mounts began in 1938 with 19,433, 35,476 in 1939, 7970 in 1940. With the over 52,000 SVT snipers not working out well in 41 and 42 Tula made another 6,811 PEM side mounts in 1942 and Izhevsk made 31,689.

Thanks Mike, I was getting ready to correct all of the misinformation!

 

[Mike Radford]

Is that you Brian? In any event, hopefully I did not make any major Bo Bos in all that typing, and in a hurry.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

Is that you Brian? In any event, hopefully I did not make any major Bo Bos in tall that typing, and in a hurry.

Yep, its me. Everything looked good from what I could see.