Suppressors Govt. surplus M1911A1's

[Tflhnd1]

I posted this in another forum but not much response.

Years ago my agency acquired a number of surplus M16A1's. We stripped them out, saved the old parts, and built entry guns on the FA lowers and they work great.

We can now acquire M1911A1's through surplus. I wanted to know if any agency has done this and built up reliable handguns in this fashion.

New Springfields, TRP, PRO, Marine operators are at minimum $950+ new. Our Glocks are worn and need replacement, but most guys want to go to a different platform. Just wondering if this has been done, what parts had to be changed for reliability, and what did it cost to do. Thanks for any response. Jeff

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but most guys want to go to a different platform.</div></div>

Why is that?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

jeeze.....with all the free gov't tit money just gushing out of the spigot....you know $4,000.00 tacticool ar scopes and new digital radios for one and all.......why can't you find some vig for some new combat tupperware....?

 

[Tflhnd1]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Wish that worked BOLT. Gov. grants are tough to acquire and dwindling in numbers from what I have been told. And in no way that I have heard that you can use grant money for weapons...Bein' in Cali. also has an impact in monies avail.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

I'd say consider it a given that every gun will need:

Slide milling for modern sights
modern, large, fixed sights, probably a front night
New barrel bushing
Beavertail grip safety
Some type of decent thumb safety, perhaps an ambi
Flat mainspring housing to replace the arched one
Long trigger to replace the short
Commander hammer of some kind
All springs replace (main, recoil, sear)

I'd imagine the guns would need to be refinished.

Adn when you were done, you'd basically have a Springfield Loaded, which is what, an $800 gun?

I don't know what you'd be willing to spend, or what you'd be able to source the pistols for, but they'd be far better left to collectors, I'd think.

There are plenty of good 1911s out there. Even an STI Spartan .45 with a fixed sight installed in the rear, a decent set of grips, amgbies, and a magwell would make a better duty handgun than a worn out USGI gun.

 

[Tflhnd1]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Rgr that DZ. I knew there will still be costs involved but still cheaper. Our protocol is to be issued one SWAT gun, stays with gear and used in training. Then one identical gun issued for primary assignment, and used in training. (12man team)(2 issue weapons)($1000.00 Springfield)=$24,000.00. That's one of the reasons this started.

As for the collector aspect, the current 1911A1's will NEVER be released to the public, but will A)Be chopped in a mill or B)Sold/Given to foreign countries.

 

[tomahawk84]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Department pricing can put you into the sigsauer platform for roughly 500 per pistol it seems your looking at retail pricing. department pricing at sig is about half retail. and i'm sure you could find 24 sigs for less than 24k.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tflhnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rgr that DZ. I knew there will still be costs involved but still cheaper. Our protocol is to be issued one SWAT gun, stays with gear and used in training. Then one identical gun issued for primary assignment, and used in training. (12man team)(2 issue weapons)($1000.00 Springfield)=$24,000.00. That's one of the reasons this started.

As for the collector aspect, the current 1911A1's will NEVER be released to the public, but will A)Be chopped in a mill or B)Sold/Given to foreign countries.
</div></div>

$24,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what it'd cost to have a gunsmith fit a new bushing, new sights, beavertail, and hammer to every one of those guns, I'd imagine.

Basically what you're starting with is the same raw material Springfield starts with in Brazil. The difference would be that you're paying an American to do the work instead of a Brazilian.

It definitely won't ever be cheaper to equip people with 1911s. It's not a cheap platform.

Glocks are plug and play. Every part must be hand fitted to a 1911, especially one expected to be sufficiently reliable for duty use.

 

[secondstoryguy]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

There was an article in a firearms publication about a department that did exactly as you are wanting to do but I can't remember which. It seems like a good deal and a department that I worked for considered doing the same. As someone mentioned above, it turned out the for the amount of money and work involved you could buy a Springfield Loaded and have about the same gun.
Your opening up a fairly large can of worms switching to a 1911 platform. I ran one as LE and while they are terrific guns, but sometimes they require a bit more effort to keep running than most departments are willing to give. Parts often "drop in" and work but most require a small amount of fitting to work right. Keeping officers armed translates into either A-issuing two guns(one as a backup) or B-having a knowledgeable 1911 smith on hand(good 1911 smiths are rare as hens teeth). The routine things like detailed stripping them and maintaining appropriate extractor tension seem simple to some but a good percentage of the population is mechanically challenged.

Hilton Yam is LE and he has a very large chunk of info at his website regarding the 1911s in LE roles. His website is 10-8forums.com.

 

[cliffw]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tflhnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Our Glocks are worn and need replacement </div></div>

Going to a deferent platform will cost you more a lot more…. New holsters and training on the platform and such. You should have a locale LEO Glock distributor that will take your old ones in on a trade and get you in new ones for under 300 per unit. 300 x 24 = 7200.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Jeff,
I'm new here but I can tell you first hand we have had no trouble with shooting our LESO .45's from Uncle Sam. All have proven be be pretty accurate and reliable. That being said from a liability stand point the work you will have to put in along with the purchase of parts, holsters, mags, and mag holders will cost quite a bit. Also depending on how old your Glock's are if you contact the Glock Rep's and tell them that you are thinking of switching they will usually make your Dept a better deal than the normal LE pricing. The Gen 4 Glocks are nice and the recoil springs are stronger.

 

[Tflhnd1]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

BLine,...I agree that the Glock is cheaper to buy, maintain, buy parts for. But...having repaired numerous weapons on a hot line, guys get concerned about whats in their hand. If you can, PM me what was changed on yours, parts, manufact if poss, and cost per gun if poss. The rest I think is negligible with operator confidence. This IS NOT A GLOCK BASHING!!!. As an instructor, I have felt it harder to transition shooters to the Glock style trigger for accuracy BTW. Jeff

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

I forgot to mention paying the smith to lower and flare the ejection port, which is also an essential modification.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Another thing to consider is to my knowledge any DRMO gun needs to be in the original configuration if returned. It is still the government's property and in the somewhat unlikely event they want them back, you'll have to strip your parts off and send them back. That would also mean no milling or modifications that can't be undone.

The cost savings might not be as significant unless you have someone willing to test, evaluate, and modify the pistols as necesary for a reasonable price.

 

[Kells81]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Aquire them, sell them to collectors and buy a proper weapon... I would have no issue packin an old 1911. But some people could screw up shooting a glock.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aquire them, sell them to collectors and buy a proper weapon... I would have no issue packin an old 1911. But some people could screw up shooting a glock. </div></div>

You can't sell DRMO guns for profit, they belong to the government

 

[JoeSmith]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

IIRC, there was an article in SWAT magazine about DRMO 1911s awhile back. (Didn't that article mention that pistols could be sold to anyone after a certain time had passed?)
One thing not mentioned is that most WW2 era production M1911A1's do not have completely forged slides and/or frames. They can be prone to cracking more so than modern production. Durability and strength is superior in any modern production 1911 or other model for that matter. I'm no expert but you can post questions on the collector forums like 1911forum.com or jouster.com

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

1911a1s can be made accurate and reliable with little or now effort and cost.

When I was running the AK NG Marksmanship unit the as issued 1911A1s were used in Combat Matches. No modifiications. I orderd and recieved 40 1911s to issued issue 4 ea. to each BN and seperate company for practice. Before we issued them I got a couple of my best pistol shooters and had them go through each and every gun switching parts until they came up with the most accurate. The 6 most accurate 1911a1 were set aside for the winning unit to use in the National Guard Championships.

No gun smithing in volve, just mixing up and switching parts. We came up with some extremely accurate pistols.

I even through my private 1911a1 into the pile had my best shooter play with it until its an extremely accurate and reliable USGI 1911a1.

Of course the more 1911s you have to play with, the more accurate pistols you'll end up with. You'd be supprised, a certain part might not work in one gun, but it might make the next gun a shooter.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

actually talking about TWO way different systems here

one you got a combat pistol meant to tag man sized targets

the other....once configured a precision pistol, once all jocked up the way you want....may could now not be so defensible in a courtroom ......i'm just sayin

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Surplus 1911A1's even as parts guns for your Department is a pure waste of time. Now if your SOD folks can carry a 1911, use it for them, because unless you have an itty bitty Department and money is no object, don't see many Departments transitioning from Glock to 1911's. The idea is to save money, not spend money in the eyes of the beaurocrats. I could see transitioning to S&W M&P, or another similar platform, but not a 1911. To transition, you have to take certain things into account, initial cost of weapon, initial cost to train department personel, annumition and days needed to complete training. Those are the basics, but are the biggest when it comes to cost / benefit of a transition, and usually the total time needed to train is where folks make up the difference in their proposals. The parts and armorer/instructor training is ancillary, as those cost are dependant on the firearm. Been through that rodeo, held the horns and everything, and its a waste of time.

 

[Top Cat]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

How do you wear out a Glock...they are good for 1/4 million rounds with a few replacement parts.

If your department can't afford a few Glock parts, 1911s won't work for you. 1911s are a maintenance nightmare. Expect to hire a few full time armorers to keep them running.

I'm sure Glock's LE Division has some inexpensive refurb programs or trade in options available.

TC

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M1911A1s transferred from the Army through DRMO to a civil police department become the department's property to modify as they wish.
</div></div>

They are on loan to the department, they are not actually the property of the department. We just had an audit from the DRMO folks and they wanted to see every single 1911, M14 and M16 that they ever gave us or at a minimum evidence that those weapons were currently issued to an officer.

It is permissible to change parts around but if the DRMO firearms are no longer needed they must be in their original configuration and can only go to another agency or back to DRMO.

I don't know what they would say about having slides milled for sights, frames cut for beavertail grip safeties, etc..

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomahawk84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Department pricing can put you into the sigsauer platform for roughly 500 per pistol it seems your looking at retail pricing. department pricing at sig is about half retail. and i'm sure you could find 24 sigs for less than 24k.

</div></div>
.
An hope the QC department is awake that day, seems to take the day off a lot recently.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M1911A1s transferred from the Army through DRMO to a civil police department become the department's property to modify as they wish.
</div></div>

They are on loan to the department, they are not actually the property of the department. We just had an audit from the DRMO folks and they wanted to see every single 1911, M14 and M16 that they ever gave us or at a minimum evidence that those weapons were currently issued to an officer.

It is permissible to change parts around but if the DRMO firearms are no longer needed they must be in their original configuration and can only go to another agency or back to DRMO.

I don't know what they would say about having slides milled for sights, frames cut for beavertail grip safeties, etc.. </div></div>

+1 to that, we had M16A1, A2's, and M14's in our armory and they did the same to us.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surplus 1911A1's even as parts guns for your Department is a pure waste of time. Now if your SOD folks can carry a 1911, use it for them, because unless you have an itty bitty Department and money is no object, don't see many Departments transitioning from Glock to 1911's. The idea is to save money, not spend money in the eyes of the beaurocrats. I could see transitioning to S&W M&P, or another similar platform, but not a 1911. To transition, you have to take certain things into account, initial cost of weapon, initial cost to train department personel, annumition and days needed to complete training. Those are the basics, but are the biggest when it comes to cost / benefit of a transition, and usually the total time needed to train is where folks make up the difference in their proposals. The parts and armorer/instructor training is ancillary, as those cost are dependant on the firearm. Been through that rodeo, held the horns and everything, and its a waste of time. </div></div>

Not to mention the cost of .45 ammo, both practice and duty.

If it were up to me, there would be one caliber for cops on the street: 9mm Luger.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not to mention the cost of .45 ammo, both practice and duty.

If it were up to me, there would be one caliber for cops on the street: 9mm Luger. </div></div>

Because it is cheaper to purchase?

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Knowing what City and County Government's do on a regular basis, where there money comes from, and why they make those decisions. Shouldn't we have an unending budget because we are cops, and they should treat us like their lives depend on us, unfortunately thats not realistic nor pragmatic. Hell, they don't pay us that way, why would they equip us similarly. Like it or not the 1911 is not viable anymore as a cost effective duty weapon considering the platforms that are out there.

 

[CamW]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Back in 2007 I was lucky enough to get a tour of the Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico . When the subject of the MEU/SOC 1911's came up, the 2112 that was showing me around said when they started the program they had 600 1911's to work with.Only 130 of the 600 pistols were in good enough shape to be rebuilt into the MEU/SOC guns.They went to Caspian frames and slides, Bar Sto barrels and a bunch of other commercial parts for the pistols.
What did they do with the out of spec guns? He took me into a room with bunch of bandsaws in it. There was a wooden box (about the size of a coffin) that was full of cut up frames and slides. It almost made me cry.

 

[kalashnikev]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

This thread makes no sense.

1) You can't take DRMO loaners and permanently modify them (without an MWO). If they were "yours to keep for the low price of FREE" then it would be a race to acquire them, sell them off, and buy modern firearms.
2) Glocks don't "wear out."
3) The multiple weapons policy you describe is quite literally insane.
4) You can't afford new stuff (which will come with armorer slots, parts, etc.) but you can afford .45 ammo and endless 1911 parts?

Something doesn't add up. I recommend you fix the Glocks for CHEAP or run retro M1911A1s for free. Maybe you can get some old timey holsters and uniforms to accompany them...

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kalashnikev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread makes no sense.

2) Glocks don't "wear out."
</div></div>


I agree with you on everything except this.

EVERY mechanism wears out, tightly assembled ones with violent motions wear out relatively quickly.

Now, do Glocks wear out past the point of serviceability and repair?, argue that.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

I'll answer that, no. The example below was purchased in 1997 during our Department's conversion , used as a duty weapon until 2006, and has just hit 34,000 rounds down the pipe. Its still functions properly and all original parts in proper working order, and just passed inspection three (3) weeks ago. The NY Trigger is smoothed nice and crisp from the use, and still holds good groups (For a factory Glock) at 25 yards. Oh, and cost $415.00 new on departmental letterhead, which I believe is still the going rate 14 years later.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not to mention the cost of .45 ammo, both practice and duty.

If it were up to me, there would be one caliber for cops on the street: 9mm Luger. </div></div>

Because it is cheaper to purchase? </div></div>

Because cheaper ammo means the same budget buys more of it, which means more practice, which means more skill, and hopefully, better/more hits on target. THAT's what matters, not magic bullets.

Let the naysayers say otherwise. I'll keep carrying a 9mm every day.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

And that is the trick for any academy staffer, make your budget go as far as posible with the most productive results.

+1

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Because cheaper ammo means the same budget buys more of it, which means more practice, which means more skill, and hopefully, better/more hits on target. THAT's what matters, not magic bullets.

Let the naysayers say otherwise. I'll keep carrying a 9mm every day. </div></div>

We pick the bullet which performs best for our intended purposes, currently 9mm isn't it. We're doing another ballistic seminar this month though so that could change. There are several variables that we consider when choosing a bullet but we don't, won't pick a caliber because it is cheaper.

 

[Emorse4487]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Ballistics don't mean much when you're bouncing rounds off the pavement instead of hitting your target...

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

Thanks for that hard thought wisdom. I'll be sure to include that in our testing.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emorse4487</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistics don't mean much when you're bouncing rounds off the pavement instead of hitting your target... </div></div>

Bingo.

Thus why there should be one caliber on the street in the officer's holster: 9mm Luger.

 

[kalashnikev]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I agree with you on everything except this.
</div></div>

I thought about putting a smiley with that, but look at the post above. There are TONS of Glocks out there with very, very high round counts that have required minimal maintenance over the years and don't throw parts at anywhere near the same rate as a 1911.

There are some rental Glocks out there with over 100K rounds still running like CRAZY.

 

[Emorse4487]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for that hard thought wisdom. I'll be sure to include that in our testing. </div></div>

Since you seem open to taking suggestions, for your next ballistics seminar I would recommend you take a random sample of officers and put them through three separate courses of fire. Run each course with a different caliber handgun of the same design (ie M&P9-40-45; G17,22,21). Vary the order of calibers used on the different stages by starting one guy/girl on 45 and the next on 9, and so on. If you sample enough people you will start to see a distinct pattern of higher achievement with a particular gun-caliber combination. Once you determine which gun and caliber combination you are achieving the highest amount of "good" hits should you do a ballistic analysis to determine which bullet performs best within that caliber class. Do the same thing for secondary sidearms.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bingo.

Thus why there should be one caliber on the street in the officer's holster: 9mm Luger.</div></div>

Maybe. I personally prefer full size 45s and compact 9s; 40s&w never offered me much. It would be interesting to see some test results from a larger population but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Mr green]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

9mm has more ammo, while 45 has the knock down power. 40 s&w is not as good in either areas, and i dont settle on what i have my life is dependant on. 40 is a wal mart employee, jack of all trades and master of none.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9mm has more ammo, while 45 has the knock down power. 40 s&w is not as good in either areas, and i dont settle on what i have my life is dependant on. 40 is a wal mart employee, jack of all trades and master of none. </div></div>
No need to make the good stuff on this thread. It's already here!

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

My department just issued gem 4 glock 22s.. We were able to purchase our gen3s for $295 and gen2s at $275...this is the amount we were offered for trade in...since first being issued a duty weapon I have been isssued gen2 and gen3. I purchased both of the weapons that I had been issued during my ten years...the gen2 was a swat pistol prior to my being issued it where it had thousands of rounds fired prior to me. During my time with the pistol thousands more...it is still reliable and I can still shoot a perfect score during quals with it...the gen3 had no where near the amount of rounds down the pipe as the gen2...
First impression of the gen4 (I don't like it)...the trigger is nasty double taps are not as tight and the grip will take the hide off of the palm around 200 rounds...to me it is not going to be a smooth transition to the gen4...
The gen4 seems to have more muzzle flip than the gen3 guess this is from the different recoil spring...
For the department side of this deal the night sights of the old guns were fading ,replacing mag springs and follower and recoil springs to keep the guns tip top was somewhere around $100....purchasing new guns was $415 with the trade in being $275 to $295 which means that they purchased new guns for about the same money as tuning up the old ones...
Don't think this had really anything to do with the original post but I just went through this deal with my department this week...

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: Govt. surplus M1911A1's

I have been noticing the publications of ballistics test between the .40 cal and the 9mm+ p ammo and the +p stuff is impressive. Right or wrong my department issued 9mm to weaker shooters. Not sure at this time that I would be opposed to carrying a 9mm...