Hand Gun carry options

[Bowhntr6pt]

What holster/set up do you use to carry your hand gun so it does not get in the way when prone/stalking? Where you do like to carry it?

At present, I'm using a SERPA with a G35 on my strong-side hip.

 

[kz45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I think strong side is the way to go, I shoot 3 gun and thats my set up, we get forced into a lot of weird shooting positions and I haven't had a problem yet

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kz45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think strong side is the way to go, I shoot 3 gun and thats my set up, we get forced into a lot of weird shooting positions and I haven't had a problem yet </div></div>

I ask because of this... a while back several of us spit from the SWAT team and no longer do entry work. We are all now dedicated marksmen/observers, the way it should be. Took about two seconds to realize what was great for entry work DID NOT cut it when doing sniper/observer work. First time doing a low crawl I could have planted potatos in the ruts my pistol left behind...

We are looking for ways to carry a hand gun, radio, etc w/o them getting damaged or in the way. Thinking of a simple mesh molle type vest with carry pouches in the lower or upper back area.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

My answer is specifically directed to the questions regarding LE Snipers...

If your task is specifically sniper/observer than ask the question, "Do you need a handgun while in this role?". The answer could very well be no. Though it depends on the mission and the specific role of your LE sniper team. Our breachers typically only carry a handgun because they are dealing with tools... So why can't a sniper ditch his pistol and just deploy with a long gun? If you are going to work in teams of two or more then you can dump the pistol. Though I would recommend your sniper team make up include a carbine of some sort.

It was mentioned that currently the pistol is causing issues during the stalk, gouging and tearing up the ground. While I know what you are talking about I have yet to experience it in a LE role. Most LE stalks are short and the crawling and skull dragging is limited to no more than 30-50 feet. In many cases the skull dragging can be avoided by proper route selection and not over penetrating the inner perimeter.

In the end I would suggest you use common sense. Some times you can dump the pistol and most of the time you can avoid the arduous "hollywood" stalk by opting for a sound tactical approach and plan out a route that is smart and not hard.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

Couldn't you just shift your holster more towards your back when going prone?

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kz45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think strong side is the way to go, I shoot 3 gun and thats my set up, we get forced into a lot of weird shooting positions and I haven't had a problem yet </div></div>
What handgun/holster are you using?

 

[kz45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

A STI Tactical Compact in a Serpa, I want my pistol staying in its place, I've seen to many people go home from dropped pistols, I spend $500.00 to go to a big match, I'm not going home because of a dropped gun!!
My holster is strong side nine o'clock, then 3, 3 round shot shell holders, 1, 6 round holder, 2 pistol mag pouches, and 2 rifle mag pouches, not much belt left after that.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

To answer several questions posed:

1. Having <span style="font-weight: bold">NO</span> hand gun is <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> an option. At times, we are solo. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Not the best situation </span>to be in but you got to do what you got to do. Personally, I could not agree to <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> having a hand gun nor would I allow one of my members to be without one. Just because you are a sniper/observer DOES NOT mean you have zero risk of having a close encounter, 2-legged or 4-legged kind included.

2. We work in a rural county area, one of our guys had to low-crawl a couple hundred yards a few weeks ago. Cow pastures and bean fields, etc. In most cases, a short crawl gets it done... but not in <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> our area. Also, quite a bit of farms have been divided up over the years with many places having only one road in/out. Sure, you go "cross country" and get there... eventually.

3. Currently, I use a SERPA, it's much better than my drop leg rig which was a TOTAL screw up.

4. Yes, I tried to rotate the holster back up high on my back leg, but it makes its way downward in short order. In class, I simply tied it off to the rear most belt loop to reduce the amount it could move/slide.

Thanks for the ideas and input thus far...

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

Move it around backwards on your belt, if need be put a small screw in the holster thru the belt to keep it there. I know shifting your pistol is going to be a pain in the ass if you have to sit in a car or something like that. But you may want to try using a separate belt for just a radio and pistol when you are going to have to do a crawl to a position.

Minimalize what you take with you on the belt.

 

[Tbag]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

Whatever you do you may want to avoid anything that is inline with your spine in the case that you fall backwards.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1. Having NO hand gun is NOT an option. At times, we are solo. Not the best situation to be in but you got to do what you got to do. Personally, I could not agree to NOT having a hand gun nor would I allow one of my members to be without one. Just because you are a sniper/observer DOES NOT mean you have zero risk of having a close encounter, 2-legged or 4-legged kind included. </div></div>

A close encounter doesn't mean a scoped rifle is useless. We train on a regular basis with snap shooting and point shooting with the bolt gun. Actually my dept scoped rifle qual has a snap shooting stage of fire. If I have a "close encounter" will I be faster with the gun in my hand or one on my hip? There are dozens of teams that enter houses with only handguns and no long guns, how is a sniper deploying with a long gun and no handgun any different?

We have to look at our current mission. We are talking SWAT in the United States of America. If I know I am deploying for a warrant service on one known threat and traveling to the hide site may be difficult with a handgun strapped to my side I have options. I can leave it or toss it in a bag and donn it once at the hide site. Common sense must dictate, making a broad statement like "_______ is NOT an option" only places limitations on you and your team.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1. Having NO hand gun is NOT an option. At times, we are solo. Not the best situation to be in but you got to do what you got to do. Personally, I could not agree to NOT having a hand gun nor would I allow one of my members to be without one. Just because you are a sniper/observer DOES NOT mean you have zero risk of having a close encounter, 2-legged or 4-legged kind included. </div></div>

A close encounter doesn't mean a scoped rifle is useless. We train on a regular basis with snap shooting and point shooting with the bolt gun. Actually my dept scoped rifle qual has a snap shooting stage of fire. If I have a "close encounter" will I be faster with the gun in my hand or one on my hip? There are dozens of teams that enter houses with only handguns and no long guns, how is a sniper deploying with a long gun and no handgun any different?

We have to look at our current mission. We are talking SWAT in the United States of America. If I know I am deploying for a warrant service on one known threat and traveling to the hide site may be difficult with a handgun strapped to my side I have options. I can leave it or toss it in a bag and donn it once at the hide site. Common sense must dictate, making a broad statement like "_______ is NOT an option" only places limitations on you and your team. </div></div>

Thank you for your thoughts and comments, I appreciate them. Your point is definately taken and offers something worthy of consideration. BUT... at this time... we will stick with having our side arms present on all deployments.

I agree... the one in your hands beats the one elsewhere. Likewise, we do train close up as well as med to long range. My actual "call out" experience has been limited and on at least two calls thus far, due to the distance to be covered, my rifle stayed in the drag bag until we got close to our anticipated position... <span style="font-weight: bold">Am I doing it wrong</span>?

PLEASE... this thread is a request for equipment ideas... not a tactics, policy, or procedure debate.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

There are very few "wrong ways"... There are ways that are safer/ more tactical/more efficient than others. I can't recall the last time I have used a drag bag during a movement. In the last few years I have used a TAB Rifle Cover but in each of those instances I had an M4 in my hands or the TAB Cover was simply covering the rifle to protect it from the elements.

When possible you should be conducting movements with a long gun at the ready. I know you don't want to get into a tactics, procedure, policy debate but in the end the tactics, the mission, our abilities and our equipment run hand in hand. Tactics and policy need to be flexible because the mission may require it.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are very few "wrong ways"... There are ways that are safer/ more tactical/more efficient than others. I can't recall the last time I have used a drag bag during a movement. In the last few years I have used a TAB Rifle Cover but in each of those instances I had an M4 in my hands or the TAB Cover was simply covering the rifle to protect it from the elements.

When possible you should be conducting movements with a long gun at the ready. I know you don't want to get into a tactics, procedure, policy debate but in the end the tactics, the mission, our abilities and our equipment run hand in hand. Tactics and policy need to be flexible because the mission may require it. </div></div>

Unfortunately my last deployment had me covering almost a half mile cutting through several cow pastures, going under/over barbed-wire fences, etc, to make my way to a pole barn. We high-crawled 80% of the way due to a thick fence line and tree line. Because we did not know 100% for sure what we were going to face in regards to our final position, we took the bags. I know I still have <span style="font-weight: bold">A LOT </span>to learn in the movement to position arena.

Our county is Night-and-Day different from one end to the other. Wealthy -vs- poor open country. I can easily see where getting deployed in a neighborhood would allow leaving the rifle bag behind as I have had a few deployments in that environment as well and moved with rifle in hand as you pointed out.

Once again, you are 100% correct reference flexibilty. Thanks.

 

[weemsw]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I carry mine in a military style flap holster, strong side, back on my hip. It sits above my rear pocket. I've found this is out of the way but still easy to get to. The flap holster helps keep stuff from catching or mucking up the gun when moving through thick stuff or crawling. I also like the idea of deploying with the sidearm. May not be needed but I'd rather have it than need it and not have it.

 

[Graham]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

When the only reason to carry a handgun is that policy requires it, it can be an inconvenience - much like a policy that requires an LE defensive marksman to wear body armor.

Depending on how much gear you have to carry on your person, and whether or not policy requires deployment in nothing but full 'costume' (BDU's and military-style regalia), IWB can be an option and is one that I like if I can get it - as is a handgun in a gear bag.

A few years ago a department about an hour away deployed in the woods: they were required to perform a stalk, one that took some time because it was the better part of a mile, and at night. It doesn't happen often, but up here it does happen.

 

[buggsb]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

Good thread. I'm going through a similar debate. Currently we are either using a military flap style holster or a standard belt holster. I am looking at a lightweight rig like this one from Survival Armor onto which I can attach a minimal number of pouches for radio, etc. and hopefully a flap type holster.

Some of my concerns are similar to the OP, however instead of long stalks we have to deal with urban approaches that involve a lot of climbing over or crawling under obstacles...mostly through neighborhoods where I want both my sidearm and my soft body armor.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I prefer a shoulder holster... an issue M7 for my 1911, to be exact.... worn over a t-shirt and under any outer garments. the reason is two fold... 1) I think concealed is best during a stalk... 2) the M7 doesn't have a strap on my shoulder pocket, therefore does not interfer with the rifle being shouldered.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I never liked the use of a drop down holster for a sniper/marksman because it always seemed to snag and/or catch on something. I always carried mine in a high rise holster tight to the body. Like Cowboy Bravo stated for all the call outs I've never needed it and would have used the rifle in hand to engage something that needed my immediate attention. However, never deployed with a drag bag either, kept everything else in a small pack. The main reason for the sidearm was in case of a weapon failure. Rifle goes down, can still observe for my partner, and provide security at our hide/position.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are very few "wrong ways"... There are ways that are safer/ more tactical/more efficient than others. </div></div>


QFT


And within that person / mission / time, place and circumstance specific.

OWB or leg is a snaggy thing. Anything at waist level or lower takes more (overt) movement to draw from when prone.


Good luck

 

[mgd45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

To the OP,

Your question was "what kind of holster do we use so that it doesn't interfere with stalking..?

Well, I know that when I'm responding to a call-out, I like to have my sidearm somewhat quickly available to me, because we don't always deploy with the rifles in hand....usually still in the bag as we hump to a FFP. But, when I find myself having to stalk or belly crawl to my final position, then the time for a pistol, is usually over & the rifle is the primary weapon.

So I use an strong side leg holster with flap to protect the pistol & keep grass/twigs/weeds from catching in it. However, the holster can be quickly unsnapped by 2 buckles & be placed in my rifle bag as I'm making the crawl to the final position.

And honestly....I've left the holster on about 90% of the time.....never really been too much of a problem.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

Carry your side arm. We had more than one occasion on rural operations where our sniper/observers ended up making an arrest on a subject who walked into their position. Observer with a carbine on cover and contact with a pistol was the way to go. Not theory but actual experience.

They used flap holsters belt mounted and behind the hip like someone else suggested. London Bridge Trading and Eagle both make good flap holsters. I am sure there are others.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I'll admit I read most of the thread, but not all of it. What about tucking it away in a small backpack that you are probably carrying anyway. Stalk into your position, and once there, if it makes you feel better, put it on your person then. Just one option that I've used in the past, may work for you, may not. Good luck.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

The problem I have with flap holster is that most us don't typically carry a flap holster. When I first qual'd in the Marines I did it on a flap holster because that is what was required at the time. As soon as I went to my unit we had a thumb break drop rig, either Eagle or LBT. I found myslef essentially relearning the draw. A flap requires a different movement and to be fast a two hand draw is best.

Before I dive into the two hand draw look at the number of reps you have on your current duty rig? Now adopt a new holster and a slightly new draw technique. How often will you be able to practice or willing to practice in order to be proficient???

Next look at the two hand draw. Given the deployment, sniper rifle in hand, in prone or in the midst of a bear crawl the flap holster is slower than I would like.

Replacing gear is not always the best answer.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I too was worried about the slow draw that a flap holster created, especially since I use a Blackhawk Serpa holster daily on duty....& I'm pretty fast with it! LOL!

But then I realized that if I need to make a "quick draw" while on a stalk as a sniper......then I'm in some serious trouble! LOL!

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But then I realized that if I need to make a "quick draw" while on a stalk as a sniper......then I'm in some serious trouble! LOL!</div></div>

If you are fighting with your pistol you are in serious trouble. The pistol is a defensive weapon or a tool for a limited specific task such as clearing or fighting in close quarters.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But then I realized that if I need to make a "quick draw" while on a stalk as a sniper......then I'm in some serious trouble! LOL!</div></div>

If you are fighting with your pistol you are in serious trouble. The pistol is a defensive weapon or a tool for a limited specific task such as clearing or fighting in close quarters. </div></div>

That was kind of my point.....the fact that I quit worrying about what kind of a draw my holster gave me, because I shouldn't be relying on a quick draw pistol rig as a sniper....

 

[DISMAS]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

With my limited experience so far in this role, I would still say that having your sidearm is essential, and that a holster that you can adjust to the back if need be would be best. Maybe even putting the sidearm in your drag bag?

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That was kind of my point.....the fact that I quit worrying about what kind of a draw my holster gave me, because I shouldn't be relying on a quick draw pistol rig as a sniper.... </div></div>

MGD, You are missing my point concerning the flap holster. A quick draw is essential in any combative capacity. The pistol is typically drawn in the "Oh shit" moment. If the pistol is already out and at the ready then it is a good day but we train to a minimal <span style="font-weight: bold">realistic</span> standard. <span style="font-weight: bold">Realistic</span> meaning what has happened already to LEO or what we know could happen on a typical incident, concerning firearms we are specifically looking at those incidents surrounding lethal force. If you are deploying alone and all you have is a pistol and a scoped rifle then you need to be fast, accurate and proficient with both.

I instruct LE and Mil snipers on a regular basis. One of the skill sets I push is being able to draw and engage targets from the prone position regardless of where the target/threat is in relationship to the shooter. This is not something I made up, I stole it from others who started training because the were dealing with that specific application in a lethal force encounter. Do some research on the shooting deaths of NY Troopers Longobardo and Baker. This incident alone should change the way most LEO deploy for a high threat incident.

Too many officers place too much confidence in the stopping power of their pistols and their abilities with the pistol. Oddly enough many officers place too many limitations on the scoped rifle and feel the need to only use it in a static, prone position... probably because that is all they know.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Hand Gun carry options

I understand what your saying and it makes complete sense. But I had to ditch my Serpa leg holster because the open top kept catching crap in it during stalks & getting dirt/grass/weeds in a Serpa holser sucks. So I went with the other holster to stop that.

Luckily we don't deploy by ourselves, & I guess I'll have to rely either on my partner to provide close support with his AR15 or me using the long rifle in an "Oh shit" situation.