How to get the best accuracy and LR capabilities from my POF 308

[savageeaglenavy]

I have a POF 20 inch 308 and I'm curious to see what are the upgrades that I can do to increase the long-range capabilities and accuracy of this gun. My thoughts are leaning towards changing the caliber to a 260. One thing I would also like to do is to reduce the weight of the gun by changing the Rail system to something lighter. Any ideas or experience in what works best to lighten the gun and increase down range performance a needed. I am open to any and all ideas.

 

[Guest]

Have you tested its current capabilities at the desired long ranges you are referring to? What were its shortfalls? I have a POF P308 16.5" and I have not reached distances that my gun inst accurate. Your situation may be different....

 

[savageeaglenavy]

Iam getting groups at 2 inches at 100 yards which is not to bad but could be a lot better. I have had it out to 500 on steel with not so good results using 178 amax. My thoughts are to rechamber with a 260 keeping the barrel at 20 inches. To tell you the facts this gun is just heavy and I would really like to know how to lighten it without just buying a newer lighter AR10.

 

[ORD]

2" at 100 yds with match ammo is WAY over what you should be achieving with the rifle (i.e. - mine with that same ammo is MOA or better...same with other commercial match ammos in that weight range), but some rifles just don't like some ammo and that's always a possibility. To that end, have you tested any other ammo with the rifle (FGMM, BH, etc. for example)? If so, what were your results? If you have NOT done so...time to try it out!

Telling us more about how you have the rifle setup current may go a ways in helping get to the bottom of your accuracy woes (i.e. - optic/mount/etc., stock, trigger, how you are shooting it in terms of accuracy testing, etc.). Also, and I feel like a broken record this morning saying this again, but what is your level of experience/training on large-frame gassers? I only ask because often times, accuracy problems can be (at least in part) attributed to shooter error and nothing per se wrong with the rifle. In terms of weight reduction...again, knowing more about how you have it setup will help determine if there's a way to shed some weight and how best to do it, but any way about it...the POF 20" rifles are heavier than some other large-frame gassers, but its the nature of the beast. It isn't like some other platforms where you can dispose of weight by easily swapping out the barrel to a lighter contour/length, etc. or switching to a CF handguard, etc., etc. As for a handguard swap...that's an option, but you are limited to those units available from POF directly or otherwise from Hogan (and hopefully soon...GAP) and you aren't going to achieve any appreciable weight savings regardless of which one you swap out to (at most, I think the weight differences are only a few ouncesTo that end, knowing where the rifle stands now in terms of overall weight as setup versus where you want to be with it at the end of the day might help to tell you whether getting it done with the POF is possible or whether you should start fresh with a different platform.

 

[savageeaglenavy]

I have a good amount of experience on a bolt gun and a gas gun but admittedly probably not enough. I have tried 175 smk, 168 hornady and the 178's. The gun is factory with a Harris bipod and I use a bag in the rear. Most likely it is operator error. I have a Nikon monarch scope 4-16 and I am switching to a vortex pst soon. Iam sure the Nikon is fine I just want a FFP. I have to accept the weight and get more training from what I gather.

 

[ORD]

I have a good amount of experience on a bolt gun and a gas gun but admittedly probably not enough. I have tried 175 smk, 168 hornady and the 178's. The gun is factory with a Harris bipod and I use a bag in the rear. Most likely it is operator error. I have a Nikon monarch scope 4-16 and I am switching to a vortex pst soon. Iam sure the Nikon is fine I just want a FFP. I have to accept the weight and get more training from what I gather.

Well...that's not exactly what I said, but certainly, depending on your experience and skill-set with a semi-auto, some specific training on running a large-frame gasser properly is NEVER a bad idea. As for the weight...again, there may be room to shave some weight, especially with different stocks, grips, mounts/rings (depending on what you are running now), etc., but the basic 9lb weight of a stock POF P-308 with a 20" tube isn't really going to get trimmed down much, so you are generally correct that you should probably learn to live with the weight and, if you want something lighter and/or more portable/maneuverable, then build or buy with those objectives in mind from the get go in lieu of trying to mod the P-308 into something that it really was never meant to be in terms of weight.

Now, back to accuracy woes...

You said that you have "tried 175 smk, 168 hornady and the 178's" but that doesn't say a lot. Are these your reloads (if so, are you loading specifically for a semi-auto or running the stuff you'd just normally run in your bolt guns...what's your reloading procedure...are you crimping or otherwise ensuring that you have adequate tension on the bullets and that you aren't getting any set-back, etc. when the ammo is rattling around in the mag or upon chambering, etc.)? Is the ammo factory-loaded match fodder? etc.

Also, you noted your scope selection, but said nothing on your rings or mount. What are you setup for in those areas (make/model/etc.)? Are you properly installing everything in terms of per the mfg's instructions on torquing of the cap screws and mounting screws (or levers if a QD mount)?

How does the rifle "fit" you? Are you getting setup on it properly? How's your cheek weld (I ask bc the POF's rail is somewhat higher than a stnd large-frame AR to accommodate the piston operation which causes your optics to sit higher and depending on the stock you are running, you may have a chin-weld instead of a cheek weld or otherwise not be getting a good, solid, consistent setup on the rifle if your scope is mounted too high...back to your ring/mount combo)? Also, are you loading your bipod properly? Have you tried removing the bipod and shooting from a rest or bags?

Have you let anyone else, particularly any known semi-auto shooters, fire the rifle to remove any possibility that "its just you" causing the issues?

Just some food for thought.

If you can eliminate all the "external" factors, and you are still having issues with poor accuracy, then it may be time to call POF and inquire about an inspection and possible repair of your rifle as it wouldn't be the first time that one wasn't shooting well. If it is something wrong with the rifle itself, they'll take care of you, but before you get to that step...its best to eliminate the above factors, try some different ammo, etc. because they'll want to know on what you are basing the fact that your rifle "won't shoot" before you bother with shipping it in for evaluation.

 

[Sebben]

Could just bail out of the POF and cut your losses. I should have listened to the reports of problems. I don't think I'll ever own one again. Some people get lucky and get good ones. I guess that wasn't me. I hope you get it sorted out.

 

[tickled pink]

How about your trigger???? I changed mine to a Geissele SSA-E and what a difference. On sand bags with the SSA-E you should be able to hold on a 30 caliber hole in your target every time you squeeze off a shot. They aren't cheep $230, but worth every penny.

I have a Colt M4 LE6920 and my buddy has a 6720 which is a 5.56 and has a very skinny barrel compared to mine would shoot 2" groups at 100 yds. After he put in a SSA-E this is a common target with his reloads.

I haven't shot mine with the new trigger yet, but I'm sure it will make a big difference.

 

[BCP]

I have a good amount of experience on a bolt gun and a gas gun but admittedly probably not enough. I have tried 175 smk, 168 hornady and the 178's. The gun is factory with a Harris bipod and I use a bag in the rear. Most likely it is operator error. I have a Nikon monarch scope 4-16 and I am switching to a vortex pst soon. Iam sure the Nikon is fine I just want a FFP. I have to accept the weight and get more training from what I gather.

They're not super heavy for a 308 AR honestly. The Larue OBR, LMT MWS, GAP 10, DPMS SASS will all weigh just as much if not more. Also it should be grouping better than 2" @ 100 with match ammo. Even if you aren't that great of a shot you should still be able to wing some good groups with it. Unless you are counting fliers? Semis will throw the first and last round from the mag differently sometimes.

I'm thinking of a POF 308, a friend has had one for several years and it's a great rifle but I'm anxious to hear from people who have bought them recently too.

 

[Sebben]

Why would they throw first and last rounds? Is it witchcraft?

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Why would they throw first and last rounds? Is it witchcraft?

It may be witchcraft, it may not. My LWRC REPR was doing the same thing. First shot high, 3 touching, 5th shot low. All within 1 MOA but it kept on doing it. I have a pile (400 rds) of 155g military ball and I have taken to loading 1 ball, 5 FGMM 168s and then a final ball in the mag, that settled it down a bit. It is still there but less so. I'm gonna bring a caliper to the range on my next trip and check for bullet setback as I proceed through the mag. I'm still shooting factory stuff but have accumulated enough brass to start reloading.

BTW, my gun is really sensitive to bullet weight (1:10 twist 18" bbl) and brand of ammo. I haven't moved up to 175's yet but the difference between the 155g ball and the FGMM is remarkable. I'm sub MOA with the Federal stuff and 2" plus with the ball.

 

[BCP]

Why would they throw first and last rounds? Is it witchcraft?

Are you trying to be a smartass or do you really not know?

 

[BCP]

It may be witchcraft, it may not. My LWRC REPR was doing the same thing. First shot high, 3 touching, 5th shot low. All within 1 MOA but it kept on doing it. I have a pile (400 rds) of 155g military ball and I have taken to loading 1 ball, 5 FGMM 168s and then a final ball in the mag, that settled it down a bit. It is still there but less so. I'm gonna bring a caliper to the range on my next trip and check for bullet setback as I proceed through the mag. I'm still shooting factory stuff but have accumulated enough brass to start reloading.

BTW, my gun is really sensitive to bullet weight (1:10 twist 18" bbl) and brand of ammo. I haven't moved up to 175's yet but the difference between the 155g ball and the FGMM is remarkable. I'm sub MOA with the Federal stuff and 2" plus with the ball.

Your FMJ ball ammo is probably not as consistent as FGMM which is why it doesn't group as well.

Clean-cold bore will almost always be a little different. Last round from the mag fliers are common usually it'll be 6 o'clock on the target.

There are lots of different theories about it usually to do with recoil impulse and lock time.

If you can keep them all within 1MOA on a regular basis then I would say you are doing well.

 

[Sebben]

Kinda both ha ha. I've read a lot about this topic and have had quite a bit of personal experience/frustration with it. No one really knows why. Factory match ammo and hand loads have had the same results. It sucks that the only consistent thing about a rifle is that it's inconsistent. 2 moa out of a "precision" rifle is unacceptable.

 

[308Shooter1911]

I am thinking of changing my trigger to a Geissele, because although my factory trigger breaks crisp, I feel that it's not quite light enough when I am doing precision work. That is my only complaint.

 

[savageeaglenavy]

I have been using factory ammo to get the results and I have been accounting for fliers. If the trigger change will help I am willing to try, also I want to invest in a better bipod ie atlas. Also I instead of a vortex scope my wife got involved in researching about all my bitching and suggested I get a Schmidt and bender 5-25 MSR. I know this is a bit overkill for a 308 but I can't pass up my wife making me go get that. She also brings up good points and I agree the MSR will easily allow me to mil my shots the adjust/correct any of my faults if the case right then. I need to get to the range after some modification and try more ammo and possibly get to reloading but I just don't have the equipment needed yet. I will give range report as soon as I can.

 

[McCrazy]

Congrats on having an awesome wife.

I recently bought a S&B 5-25 but I don't think my wife knows yet...

 

[BCP]

I have been using factory ammo to get the results and I have been accounting for fliers. If the trigger change will help I am willing to try, also I want to invest in a better bipod ie atlas. Also I instead of a vortex scope my wife got involved in researching about all my bitching and suggested I get a Schmidt and bender 5-25 MSR. I know this is a bit overkill for a 308 but I can't pass up my wife making me go get that. She also brings up good points and I agree the MSR will easily allow me to mil my shots the adjust/correct any of my faults if the case right then. I need to get to the range after some modification and try more ammo and possibly get to reloading but I just don't have the equipment needed yet. I will give range report as soon as I can.

A harris bipod and nikon scope shouldn't keep you from making accurate shots unless the bipod or optics mount are loose.

One simple thing to try is to get behind the rifle with your eyes closed, then open your eyes to see if your head is lined up reasonably well with the scope. It if it's not that is one problem. Another is when you have it set up shooting is to front-load the bipod. When you fire you want to stay behind the rifle the entire time, looking through the scope, without torquing the grip or moving your head around.

Shooting a gas gun is kind of tough but like I said you should have at least winged a few 3 or 5 shot groups that are acceptable, like near an inch @ 100 if you want to put a number to it.

Is there any way you could post some pics of your targets?