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  • Aug 8, 2018
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    OK so @ChrisWay and @lowlight this is very interesting and I hope what you both were expecting the data to uncover.

    Frank it sounded like you saw this as you were playing and made adjustments(cough cough gamer :) ) and made adjustments and created a book on zero shifts based on position. Frank could you clarify, it sounded like you adjusted your rile setup and other things.
    Did you then go and re-zero prone, ur did you establish a positional zero with +- adjustments?

    Once you know these +- are they body adjustments you need to make to remove the zero shift or something you have to compensate for in dope based on the positional challenges? i.e. kneeling always requires 0.1 vertical, standing requires vert-0.1, left 0.1.
     

    lowlight

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    Yes,

    When I first showed up, I wasn't sure how much 88gr Ammo I had, so I grabbed a case of 75gr stuff, knowing I was gonna zero first then run the drill. When I got down on the rifle I noticed the scope was not comfortable at all either, so I moved that too prior to shooting the target.

    The 75s do really well in my JP Rifle but the Boltgun Valkyrie was shooting the 88s much better, so I checked the range box and found a case of them. Too easy rezero with the 88s. My first group of 3, which I should have snapped a picture of but my phone was at the line was seriously just one hole. That rifle is starting to settle in with about 600 rounds under it.

    When I went to rezero I knew there was a bit of offset, at least .1 when switching positions so decided to check it and see if I can balance it. What I found was, the offset was closer to .2 Mil, almost a full .3 Mils how I was shooting that day. That got me thinking I could make an adjustment in zero and then just bounce the reticle on the target.

    Initially, I thought I would do a 6 O Clock hold in the Prone Position and a 12 O Clock hold in the others, but saw if I nudged it a tenth up I could be within the 1 MOA standard I was shooting for.

    Like I said I shot it slow fire, which I just looked at the footage, I averaged 1 Minute per position. The shortest was 49 seconds and the longest was 1:27 in terms of pure record time. That includes walking over to start and stop the footage. Which I have to say is not very good, I ignored the camera when I saw I could solve this problem.

    For me, my personal error is always to the right, I tend to focus my groups left of center for a couple of reason:

    1. The wind on our range, it was blowing, always blowing usually left to right.
    2. I tend to make my mistakes to the right
    3. I like, if I want to be "more precise" I can hold the right edge of any dot target and I am still in the black.

    In the sitting position, I used a support pillow, in the standing and kneeling I did not but I had the better tripods.

    But, yes, I think we can "zero" for positions like this and find the balance in the center.

    NPA was pretty big here, I noticed it immediately and made sure I cut the center of the target with the vertical crosshair. I even checked it.

    Understand I realize most probably work this as a stage, I worked it slower using best practice. I checked my NPA, I fine-tuned my zero because if I don't, everyone is gonna comment on it. All the things you normally don't slow down for, I did, I even backed off my shoulder pressure to see which way the tripod settled and then fixed that prior to shooting.

    The aiming point was another key, when I first focused on the target I could barely see. First off I didn't have my prescription glasses with me so wearing sunglasses the black on black sucked. I had 6" Shoot N C targets in the shed with the little pasters I used and picked the orange over the black.
    34081__53167.1522391633.jpg


    Using the Orange background really helped with the floating dot, which allowed me to see better and put the dot in the center when breaking the trigger. The fact the dot was like 3/8" meant as long as I was centered on it breaking the trigger I should be good, which clearly worked. At this point, the tripods were doing their work so for me it was all trigger control now. So I have no issues with trigger control, the rifle is solid, my NPA is good and I am not putting any artificial pressure on myself by inducing time into the equation.

    I had all the elements in place for success, as long as the rifle and ammo are shooting, I am good to go.

    That all said, would be as good under time, and I know Phil shot it like a stage, and did just as well, could I match that speed, nope. My speed days are over in a lot of ways, however, if you let me set up with all the time in the world, done deal. I just can't move as I used to.
     

    enginerd

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    I have a video, although one card was acting funky I hope I have all of it, when I went to review in the camera is showing an issue, not playing. I just got home I have to check it, but I have footage.

    But I didn't "run" it like a stage, I set up at each position and shot it, of course moving from one to the other as I finished, but I took my time, which was like a minute per stage if that, it was only 3 rounds. I did not rush, I built my position and shot, then moved to the next. Like I said I might have spent a minute per position.

    I have a bigger thread/article to make because I noticed something doing this, and I changed my entire zeroing and set up beforehand.

    I bought the Valkyrie with me, it was a practical rifle, AX Chassis, not a lot of extras, just a Bighorn with a LH GT Bartlein, when I first addressed the rifle I didn't like the position of the scope, it needed to come one pic back to feel really comfortable in all positions. So I moved the scope and rezeroed it with 75s. I didn't like what saw with those so I switched to 88s, and was much happier with my set up going into it.

    So from the beginning, I rezeroed the rifle with 88s at 100 yards, then I did a practice run on paper (dots, different target) and checked my zero. This is where it gets tricky:

    So in the prone, you have one zero, in the other positions you will see an offset, so I checked it. (Nobody said there was no practice) I wanted to find my balance of zero between the positions. Which I did, it's about .2 in variation is what I saw.

    I used this target to practice:
    View attachment 7509206

    if you look at the second target from the right, that had my final elevation on it. Just that little guy in the orange. I shot it for zero in the standing after this run. So the rifle was zeroed, I balanced that zero dialing up .1 from the center and it kept my shots tighter. More Precise on target. But I did take the time to establish all this, no rules against it. :)


    View attachment 7509201

    So you had one about .1 Low and then another about .1 High

    View attachment 7509202

    These are 3/4" dots with 3/8" orange pasty I stuck on it to see, (I added the same pasty to the Kraft target the aiming point was not comfortable for me, so I changed it. I needed a better aiming point, so once the floating dot hit the orange I was good. I actually did better shooting faster, breaking the instant the dot was centered.

    If you check out my target above you see one stringing right, I found my leveling base was slipping so when I shot it for the score, I had to overtighten the tripod to keep it from tossing a round which I still did. I think my 2MOA right side flyer was the Leveling base slipping there too. As a side note, when I was all finished putting everything away I noticed my suppressor was loose too, 224 probably didn't care because it was a 30 cal can on it, but it was definitely loose.

    A couple of observations:

    NPA Matters, I had to make sure I broke the center of the target with my vertical reticle. Then my horizontal was set up .5 Low as my head weights .5 Mils. So that means when I address the rifle, I rise into my target, I then back off the pressure, check the reticle position, if it does not drift left or right, I was good to start.

    I run about 75% of Full pressure behind the rifle in the alternate positions.

    So my thinking was, zero .1 Mil high of center in the prone then my positional shots will be more in line with my prone zero. I fine-tuned it by doing a single practice run then I went live the whole thing took me maybe 4 minutes. I set up the rifle up ahead of time for this.

    Basically, I settled on my zero needing to be .1 Mil high of center and .1 Mil left of center. In order to group dead center on the target as often as possible. But for sure the tripod matter, the NPA of that.

    I had noticed the same thing when I was shooting, Frank. I havent had a chance to get back to the range but wondered if based on this aggregate data from multiple positions if I should adjust my zero just as you described. If I get time, I would like to see what this does at more distance to the vertical dispersion of a group from multiple positions. I noticed my prone shot being exactly at centerline as that is how I set my zero but all my positional shots trended low of that even if I felt that I had a good clean break on the center of mass of target.
     
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    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    We are compromising with our rifles in a lot of ways,

    Take an Olympic air rifle or .22 shooter and look at the stocks on their rifles. Everything is focused on the back of the rifle where it attaches to the shooter. We tend to push SPEED over Position, we try to let the rifle do as much work, hence the added weights to remove enough of the shooter influence as possible.

    When we change positions and don't change the rifle set up, we are compromising. The position of our head moves, so the view through the scope moves, cheek weld, etc. Well, recoil management tells the bullet where the barrel is upon release. When the bullet leaves the barrel, at that exact point everything is moving. In the prone, the movement follows our body or the ground, in those alternate positions we move in a different way. We are no longer a solid object behind the rifle, we are inducing movement to the recoil pulse. So the barrel is not in the same place.

    Why we want our shoulders in front of our hips, we are trying to replicate prone to the best of our ability. We put the tripods under our chin, in the center of our chest so we can manage recoil by leaning into it.

    This is why things change, as noted, how much they change depends on a series of factors. This was shot on paper, I wanted the best possible group I could manage so I accounted for it. Paper is a RAT, it will tell you every time.
     

    Papamo

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    Took some of Frank's advice and re-zeroed rifle to impact high by .2 since I tend to track low and left shooting in positional and checked zero in a sitting position on a tripod ( right group). Left group is prone, 3-shots each16087569373078801894728951246669.jpg
    Then went and shot the diamond and took my time. Definitely better than I was expecting and will have to try it again with a time stressors
    Edited; Noticed that I will have to move scope back some when shooting on 25× while i was shooting this drill.
    20201223_125012.jpg20201223_124432.jpg
     

    ChrisWay

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    Took some of Frank's advice and re-zeroed rifle to impact high by .2 since I tend to track low and left shooting in positional and checked zero in a sitting position on a tripod ( right group). Left group is prone, 3-shots eachView attachment 7509995
    Then went and shot the diamond and took my time. Definitely better than I was expecting and will have to try it again with a time stressors
    Edited; Noticed that I will have to move scope back some when shooting on 25× while i was shooting this drill.
    View attachment 7509998View attachment 7509999
    The next data collection target and set will be to address stress. It will be the same build and break positions but with a time element. It will be more involved since it has the timer aspect, but will also take some playing around to find the time/largest diamond balance. I’m just waiting to break a certain number of participants before letting that loose.
     

    Solby

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    Would you find it beneficial to print out 4 targets and set them very close to each other. Then shoot each as a separate target per position as the drill is designed to see your shifts per position? Seems like it might be hard to track which position has what affect without having it on video.
     

    ChrisWay

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    For this it’s easiest to have them all on the same target. I have four more targets with different smaller aim points for some more diagnostics, but fir a shooter number I needed them on the same paper.
     
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    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    I think this is the beauty of the direction Chris went in his training, which morphed into this drill

    This opens up so many doors to diagnostics and training, and the fact it is so simple makes it that much better.

    A shooter can add or subtract any host of variables for their own personal training it's nearly limitless in the growth potential. We all know doing a stage, running it on the clock as if it was real is gonna be the best type of training one can do. But not everyone has access to what is necessary to do it.

    So by experimenting with methods, reporting, targets, and the like, we can find new ways to accomplish the same thing when resources are not there.

    Looking at the style of the target, the way it is shot, the range used, groups at 100 are one thing, move out to 200 and with most new shooters all bets go out the window. They shoot 5/8" at 100 and then wonder why it's 2.5" at 200, and not just double in size. Speed adds another element to it.

    You can look at this as a double-sided drill, you arrive at a range for practice, set this up at 100, you have 3 variations right off the bat, slow fire start, get the bugs out of your day. Then you go on the clock, then maybe you take it steel.

    If you increase it to 5 shots per position, you have a box to start, a box to walk, and a box to run with, you have a 60 shot training program and 2/3s is at 100 yards, which everyone has access too.

    As I said on the podcast, I am excited to see the direction this type of challenge brings people and instruction moving forward.
     

    Diver160651

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    I've been using paper for tunning my positional shooting for a long time. I also shoot my hunting mags off my tripods as that's how they tend to get shot to zero at 100 on paper, if nothing else to give me the confidence I want.

    FWIW I would like to see the targets modified so they are easier to see and index the targets; with thick vertical and horizontal lines coming off the points of the diamond to better help line the targets up.

    I think for the shooter, there is value in using 4 separate targets so they can decipher what the actual offsets are. From a data collection standpoint, all you need to do is overlay images of the 4 targets to get the same composite image/information.
    Screenshot 12-23-2020 16.35.39.png
     

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    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Started playing with this tonight, my line tool is not working, fucking Adobe, but anyway

    Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 5.34.53 PM.png


    It's easier for me to do circles vs the Diamonds but I was just playing around with this ... I was gonna add reference lines but photoshop has an issue with this version, so no lines for you.
     

    Diver160651

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    Started playing with this tonight, my line tool is not working, fucking Adobe, but anyway

    View attachment 7510140

    It's easier for me to do circles vs the Diamonds but I was just playing around with this ... I was gonna add reference lines but photoshop has an issue with this version, so no lines for you.
    Nice, do you have Adobe Illustrator? It all way easier in ai

    Here is what I use for load dev and paper practice at 100. If I am shooting positional, I don't use every target, I give myself some space.

    I get this is not the same thing, just a way to practice a lot of groups/positions with one piece of printed paper. White is 1MOA gray is 2MOA
    Screenshot 12-23-2020 16.49.19.png
     

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    Hoyt7mm

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    I'm almost certain I missed this in one of the podcasts, but what is the purpose of the diamonds? Aside from everyone hates them lol
     

    ma smith

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    I like diamond shaped targets 🤠



    ....probaby cause I aim at the bigger ones 😂
     

    Gleedus

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    I have shot paper drills to look for weaknesses for some time now but I have always done it for a here and now test with no way to look at combined data or data over time.
    This whole thread really got me thinking about what is possible if you have a way to store the data. So I created a excel workbook for myself to track POI. I did it as a simple one so it works on a phone but on a computer you could really break the data down.... I'm all ears.

    I just put in random numbers to show how it works. Hope this weekend to put it to real use.

    Screenshot_20201223-205757_OneDrive.jpg
    IMG_20201223_183703_043.jpg
     

    ChrisWay

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    I've been using paper for tunning my positional shooting for a long time. I also shoot my hunting mags off my tripods as that's how they tend to get shot to zero at 100 on paper, if nothing else to give me the confidence I want.

    FWIW I would like to see the targets modified so they are easier to see and index the targets; with thick vertical and horizontal lines coming off the points of the diamond to better help line the targets up.

    I think for the shooter, there is value in using 4 separate targets so they can decipher what the actual offsets are. From a data collection standpoint, all you need to do is overlay images of the 4 targets to get the same composite image/information.View attachment 7510141
    Sick, thanks for adding those!
    I have a target with four smaller targets on it for positional data but this project hasn’t gotten that far yet. For now I need it al on one sheet, but that’s just for this project.
    if I have trouble seeing the target I just color in the 1 diamond with a marker. And do that for a zero dot. Pretty easy also. Cheaper than printing color and then you have a marker for writing down data also .
    Once this data gets to the thread hold we’re going to use the same one fir a stress data collection, and then based on those numbers offer a 4,9,16 target sheet for sub data. That mostly depends on the consistent numbers people are shooting.
    I guess is someone’s wobble zone is 6” there’s less point working on the fine tune stuff as it’s lost in the wobble.. whereas once the coarse adjustment stuff we can see more details that likely mean things.
    I literally have 20+ targets with multiple8zones and some misses.. so I gotta work outward in.
     

    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    I have shot paper drills to look for weaknesses for some time now but I have always done it for a here and now test with no way to look at combined data or data over time.
    This whole thread really got me thinking about what is possible if you have a way to store the data. So I created a excel workbook for myself to track POI. I did it as a simple one so it works on a phone but on a computer you could really break the data down.... I'm all ears.

    I just put in random numbers to show how it works. Hope this weekend to put it to real use.

    View attachment 7510227 View attachment 7510226


    This has a lot of potential!

    I like that a lot using the grid to plot them down to the 1/4” square
     
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    Gleedus

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    This has a lot of potential!

    I like that a lot using the grid to plot them down to the 1/4” square
    Thanks!

    I created this for rimfire at 50 yards. One question i have is if you do 100 yard how fine of grid would be useful? If doing a 8" target with 0.3" grid it can be done with a 3 digit number. Otherwise have to go to a 4 digit.
     

    Diver160651

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    Don’t forget you need to clearly and easily lock up and index on the targets even with 10-12x to be super valuable. As hunting scopes or the guy that shoots those powers when positional.
     

    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    We use pattern recognition all the time, we can identify if you string vertically or horizontally what you are doing, this might be a nice visual diagnostic.

    I actually had a new target I was working on for classes that had a similar square in the center, I think I can adjust it a tick, add a grid behind it and I can create something similar
     

    lowlight

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    I think his plots are after not what you shoot,

    I think he is just using the plotting system to visualize the impacts, you can do a very similar thing with what Chris currently has...

    it's minor tweaks, You can still plot electronically which then you put into a workbook you keep electronically
     

    dgheriani

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    I shot this as a drill, 12s per position, using only a heavy fill pint size Gamechanger, standing, kneeling, seated, prone then repeat x3. The one shot in the "3" ring was the 1st shot standing, which was the first shot of positional shooting in over a month so that's my excuse, haha. I shoulda used a pasty in the middle as Frank did since I found the target quite hard to resolve (was late in the afternoon and. bit of fog didn't help) and ended up shooting it at 25X (whereas I usually shoot around 13X) but I thought that was part of the challenge. In all honesty I ended up using my 2nd bullet hole as my point of aim as it was more evident than the centre diamond.

    When I shoot paper drills, I normally use 2" squares at 100 yards. My reasoning being that it's easier to hold a tighter group on a smaller target than it is on a somewhat larger one with no defined centre point. I figure that 2 moa is a good general size of targets at matches, so I'd like to be able to both stay nicely centered on that size target as well as shoot a small group.

    A6797489-723C-4712-B1FF-B27DD02FDD39.JPG
     

    ma smith

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    This is a good way to figure out what size of targets should be used for comps of various classs. You pick a reward ratio like 8/10 hits is a good reward for most people. They still have 2/10 to improve.

    Now you plot a histogram or whatever and see how many guys "need" a target bigger or smaller than the no 2. How many guys need a target lik 3 or 4 to get 8/10 hits? You can plot that out using math...
     
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    Gleedus

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    I just realized its 3 per position!! I will redo.
    I have had the past month off from shooting. Doing a mental reset. So I took my Ruger precision rimfire out with CCI sv. It was -3⁰c (26⁰f) full value 9 o'clock wind 8-12 mph.
    These are in the order I shot them no warm up this is my first 92 shots of the day. I shot a group of 10 prone first then did 5 Kraft targets. The last 3 Kraft targets I messed around a little so not sure its fair data but its interesting.
    The first target was telling of the rusty me. The very last target was a 10 shot group standing at a barricade. It was 1-5/8".
    I have always done tests like this by shooting groups from one position. As we can see I can shoot a group simular to prone but this breaking position between shots.... it is a very good idea.
    20201224_175355.jpg
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    isofahunter

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    Used a T post as support for standing, kneeling, seated, prone was off a bag placed at bottom of post. 2:15 for twelve shots from 22LR. 10mph wind from 3:30, 99 yards
    20201224_160927.jpg
    20201224_161125.jpg
     

    Diver160651

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    I guess old school is out of the question?

    if you know you shoot from hard driven bipod; but when on a barricade are .2mils higher isn’t it better to program in your offset in your head? The best way to do that is not on one target, but two side by side. Bring them back to the bench post shoot and measure.
     

    Jabot

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    To me the point of this was to get data to see how much groups grow in positions when stability issues are addressed. Even it means u don't shoot the best groups u hope for. By seeing your groups open up or start showing a trend in one direction or another "shooting high or to one side " one would get a realistic view on what positions you need to practice more. Then I see people changing there zeroes to accommodate the offset they have off obstacles. Go me it's people not dealing with the fact they need to practice what there having trouble with and wanting to post a smaller more centered group. It flaws the test and just adds to the fact people try to game everything. Just shoot the test with the same zero u have all the time
     

    Papamo

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    I agree to a point on shooting this test with the zero you would normally have.
    But,
    If you know you have a offset on positional , why wouldn't you want to tweak your prone zero so the positional zero is more centered due to it being more of a difficult shot?
    I would rather hold a offset in the prone since it is more of a stable position
     
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    Gleedus

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    Or u could practice more
    You will almost alway have a off set regardless of practicing more. If you 100% free recoil with a heavy rifle you can reduce it for your positions but prone will still tent to be different.
    In PRS the majority of shots are positional where I am so I zero for positional and offset prone.
    All depends on how precise your trying to be.
     
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    LV Precision

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    To me the point of this was to get data to see how much groups grow in positions when stability issues are addressed. Even it means u don't shoot the best groups u hope for. By seeing your groups open up or start showing a trend in one direction or another "shooting high or to one side " one would get a realistic view on what positions you need to practice more. Then I see people changing there zeroes to accommodate the offset they have off obstacles. Go me it's people not dealing with the fact they need to practice what there having trouble with and wanting to post a smaller more centered group. It flaws the test and just adds to the fact people try to game everything. Just shoot the test with the same zero u have all the time

    Or u could practice more

    Agreed with this. A rifle has a mechanical zero; if your positional shots are off from the mechanical zero, that means your position is compromised and you need more practice. Creating an offset zero doesn't help if you want to improve and getting as close to the true zero as possible in each position.
     

    Gleedus

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    Agreed with this. A rifle has a mechanical zero; if your positional shots are off from the mechanical zero, that means your position is compromised and you need more practice. Creating an offset zero doesn't help if you want to improve and getting as close to the true zero as possible in each position.
    Yes a rifle has a mechanical zero. Under the same conditions it will always have the same poi. But to answer @ma smith when prone there is more resistance to the recoil impulse then when on a bag in a positional shot. You also are changing the pivot point because the bypod is at the front of the forend and a bag is at the rear. Clamp into a tripod and you have changed the recoil dynamics again.
    Rifle setup can help. I shot my Kraft with a Ruger "precision" Rim Fire so with the plastic so called chassis it exaggerates fundamental errors and positional changes. You can also see my first target is embarrassingly shotgun like. I have had a month reset and now will start from scratch and redo my fundamentals over the next couple of months. The higher recoil rifles will exploit this more then a 6mm pea shooter. Now this all points to practicing your positions so you are more consistent with your fundamentals and this is very true that is why I do a restart after every season. BUT it is impossible to recreate a prone shot when standing... Telling some you just need more practice is not the entire story just 90% of it.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    BUT it is impossible to recreate a prone shot when standing... Telling some you just need more practice is not the entire story just 90% of it.

    This is only true in so much as the person behind the rifle is in a different positions so it’s different.

    You can absolutely recreate the same POI. Take a look at @lowlight’s submissions. That is repeated and consistent recoils management that allows the rifle to recoil very close to the same way every time.
     

    Gleedus

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    This is only true in so much as the person behind the rifle is in a different positions so it’s different.

    You can absolutely recreate the same POI. Take a look at @lowlight’s submissions. That is repeated and consistent recoils management that allows the rifle to recoil very close to the same way every time.
    I read his post a few times. I think that proves the point that it happens but can be accounted for. A group from each position would show more the shift from position to position. The part that stood out to me is that he seen some horizontal as well. I have never considered the horizontal component before. At 100 with a 22 its pointless so it will have to be with something else. My testing in the past is 0.2 mil difference vertical for me.
    Another thing I want to test is poi movement based on lighting conditions. I have started to wonder if light behind vs light on front makes a difference as well. Maybe Im crazy lol.
     

    LV Precision

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    The dispersion in different positions isn't caused by your zero, it's caused by the misalignment of your NPA and your wobble zone.
     

    enginerd

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    Ran this again today with some time to challenge myself. Set a 144second par assuming average of 12 seconds per shot. Knowing the targets are 3" tip to tip for the number 3 diamond I am keeping everything inside a 3moa group under stress (program calculates 2.1 moa but that would have only had 10 rounds on a 2" square plate). This is pretty consistent with what I see during matches and right in line with what I have found myself to shoot (12sec per shot breaking and making a new position each time). I shot on 15x zoom and added a 3/4" paster to the center for an easier aiming point.
    25 Creedmoor in XLR envy Pro team chassis with Maven RS.4 scope. Single pint size GC and used the bottom bar of the barricade from prone so I didn't have to deal with a bipod.
    It was about 28* outside and had minimal wind sub 5mph from 8 o'clock ish.
    20CAABEB-78D0-4929-985F-93C503BF6D55.png
    0ADCBC2D-C0E4-47A4-A51C-FE00AA142225.jpeg

    B0A318ED-3049-48D6-91AD-1A5ED34B54A2.jpeg
     

    RhhMD

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    This was a real eye opening experience at the range today. I have heard "paper doesn't lie" many times it reveals weakness very quickly!
     

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    CaylenW

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    Shot the drill again today with my hunting rifles. Interesting results with the heavier recoiling 7 RSAUM.

    The Proof 6.5 CM is the Tac-II and it weighs about 9lbs in this configuration. Mellow recoil, but it's definitely more sensitive to followthrough than a 18lb comp rig is. My high and low misses are all me; I called them both. I got lazy and loose on the rifle and it bit me.

    The ONE Rifles 7 SAUM was not zeroed; the rat hole is where the zero is, and I fired a confirmation group after the drill to make sure it wasn't me. I adjusted afterwards. This rifle is about 11lbs in this configuration and it's readily apparent that followthrough is a very important task while shooting a light weight hunting rig with some stout recoil in positions other than prone.

    Kraft 6.5 CM Hunting.jpg
    Kraft 7 SAUM.jpg
     

    Hoyt7mm

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    One more to round out 2020.
     

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    opus56

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    Shot it twice today. One was a yard sale...the other, not too bad!
     

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    david8989

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    Loved shooting this drill. Gives me a really positive baseline for improvement over 2021. I was happy that I didn't have any poi shift from position to position but am far from satisfied with the 2 moa result. Im ready for the timed iteration of this drill @ChrisWay
     

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    357Max

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    Finally made it to the range today & I really like this drill.

    The results were very revealing for me. Chris I hope you get some useful info from it, I know I damn sure learned a lot.

    My background is that I'm pretty Green at this. Never had any training & have never competed with a bolt gun.
    I only tried the barricade @ my range twice prior to this & only standing. I did shoot my first match in Oct. Geissele gas gun challenge and it had positional, but not this (roof top, tires, swinging platform etc).

    I shot 3 targets with 3 different guns & I'll post in the order I shot.
    All 3 were shot using the same smedium GC bag on barricade & Colorado precision rifle rear bag for prone.
    All were shot on 18 X magnification.
    Atlas Super Cal Arca was used on the 2 bolt gun 6.5C's
    Atlas PSR pic mount for the DPMS 308

    1st up was the 4th of July special ARC rifle.
    This gun previously did not like Berger factory 140 Hybrid loads. I thought I'd give them another try since I just put a new Brake on it & it likes them now go figure.

    Set up for all.
    IMG_5836-1.jpg



    ARC 6.5C Weight is 16lbs 5 oz
    IMG_5835-1.jpg


    I did tweak it by adding a 3 round zero check + 1 shot each position prior to shooting the 12.
    So 19 rounds total per target.
    IMG_5848.jpg


    Steyr 6.5 C Weight is 14lbs 14 oz
    IMG_5838.jpg


    IMG_5849.jpg


    DPMS 308 Weight is 11lbs 11 oz
    IMG_5841.jpg


    IMG_5851.jpg



    Well first off I learned that Balance really makes a difference.
    Also I prefer 2 stage triggers, but I shot the single stage trigger tech on the ARC best:unsure:
    The Xylo is a really an awesome platform. The thing was obviously built to do this. Very comfortable & since I did add a few weights to the front of the rail it balances great. I'd bet with a 26-28" barrel the balance would be right without added weights.
    This was the only rifle that would balance on the barricade unsupported. Trigger is set about 1.5 - 2lbs
    Hard to believe the brake change had such a big affect on the Berger 140's, but I'll take it. I'm surprised the large PA Hypertap 4 port brake doesn't get much praise on here. It is very effective & back blast isn't any worse then a hellfire. The machining is perfect & ion bond/PVD is (y)
    As it sits it actually qualifies for production & I plan to shoot it in the Mason Dixon PRS this year.

    I love the Steyr/Manners & it will group with the ARC, but it is way butt heavy due to the lightish barrel profile. The new 10 round mags are tits. It has a nice adjustable 2 stage trigger & it's set @ 1.5 - 2lbs
    I was able to adjust to the balance and settle in on the last 8, but it took more effort.
    From this test I learned that I need to shorten my length of pull. Really had to crane my head over sitting to get full sight picture.
    Might also add a steel 419 Arca with the internal weights to improve balance.

    DPMS 308 also suffers the back heavy imbalance. The 3.5lb trigger was pretty noticeable coming from the lighter bolt gun triggers.
    I have more time behind this gun & it proves how important practice is. It's clearly the most disadvantaged, but I did pretty well anyways.
    I don't know what the hell happened to the zero. Everything went right after a .1 tweak. It was first shots with a new break so I obviously need to zero again next time out. Excuses: Just 1, the barrel was squeaky clean when I shot this.
    Changes I might make to this after just one run on the Craft would be to put a trigger tech 2.5lb 1911 style (closer to single stage) in it.
    I'll probably put the short Defy Arca I got BF on there so I can run the Atlas S cal or cal & put a little more weight up front.
    Also might drop to 150 class bullets for matches limited to 600-700 yards.

    Last, but most important I'll be running this drill and adding time pressure!

    Thanks to Chris Way & Frank for pushing this out to us.
     
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    ChrisWay

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    Hey guys. This week we will start posting the analysis and big picture data on RifleKraft. In order to clarify a few data points I came up with an additional drill I’m calling the stress number drill. It’s an additional run through the drill with a specific time element extracted from your baseline.
    here’s a video explaining it. If you want to do it, awesome. I think it’s a perfect compliment as it shows a few things well when added to the data.
    the Data is best interpreted with all shots on the same target.
    **if you have trouble with the aim point.. use a marker to color it a little!