• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Larry Vickers pleads guilty

I’m a’thinking that you-all missed post number six wherein I posted this from the article:

1698016735144.png


Sullivan was an analyst with DHS. Can you say Jack Ryan? Sure laugh away. Discuss the crap out of it. 👍🏻👍🏻
 
Thank you sir.

But... sooo.... how'd he get caught? Did it raise some red flags when he tried to do business with Kalash Concern?

Every time a Title II (NFA) item changes hands, there must be paperwork filed with the ATF - Form 4 for individual transfers, Form 3 for transfers between SOTs, etc. This paperwork describes the items being transferred and the claimed reason for doing so. Lying on those forms is a bad idea, as is putting down information that may be admission of guilt.

I suspect there are certain manufacturers and models which when entered on these forms will attract attention. I also suspect there is a certain volume of transfer applications that will attract attention, and not of the express-lane variety. I *know* there are plenty of other people engaging in the same behavior, and either they have gotten lucky or doing this on too small of a scale to attract attention. It's also possible that a CI ratted him out, or he ran his mouth in front of the wrong audience, or a manufacturer/importer dropped a dime, or he simply got swept up in some other investigation. It's also possible that the DOJ targeted him politically, although I've never heard any hint of the feds associating him with "militia violent extremists".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Forgetful Coyote
I’m a’thinking that you-all missed post number six wherein I posted this from the article:

View attachment 8254960

Sullivan was an analyst with DHS. Can you say Jack Ryan? Sure laugh away. Discuss the crap out of it. 👍🏻👍🏻
Always require criminal acts as initiation to join your group. Weeds out the weasels.
And I’ll put money on it Sullivan walks free, couple of the others may as well since they got Vickers.
 
Always require criminal acts as initiation to join your group. Weeds out the weasels.
Words to live by bro.

If you won't snort a fat slug of yayo right in front of me when trying to buy a drop in auto sear, deals a no-go.

Its the only way I can be sure you're good to go! Along with confirming you won't be a party pooper when we get wasted and go hog hunting on the Rzr with our NV kitted out full autos for the tiktok views :p
 
This world fucking sucks…. The laws that apply to most everything are absolutely ridiculous and serve nothing but to punish the law abiding people….. Just saying..


Drinking heavy tonight 🥴
 
You have no problem with him being prosecuted and punished "to the full extent of the law" for breaking an unconstitutional law?


Man with friends like you who needs enemies.

This is like saying you have no problem with an abusive husband violating a restraining order to beat his wife because the husband said it was OK to ignore the restraining order.


You are like the wife who accepts her husbands beating because "she's afraid to live alone"...
The argument could even be made thats its an Americans' constitutional duty, along with being a command from Jesus Christ and John M Browning himself, to break an unconstitutional anti-2A law at every opportunity. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ...

What happened between Vickers an m4carbine?
It wasn't between him and m4c, basically someone took a class (think it was the ammo expert guy who posted all the ammo tests) from Ken Hackathorn. It wasn't like glowing, 100% god worship and the entire forum collectively lost their shit--seriously I think the comment that sent everyone into orbit was 'I was disaapointed in the amount of shooting' (my recollection). Vickers had a bunch of implied threats about after action reports. It was then I realized the whole training thing pushed over there was a just a scam

Coupled with I think it was the owner of M4C running a shoothouse where they went full retard with gun safety rules, someone also called him on it, led to his (Grant?) "Vickers Endoresed Instructor" getting revoked and then quietly re-instated by Vickers. It was "lets run around with loaded guns pointed at each other AND take photos of it" stupid level safety violation and the defense was "Big Boy Rules" They got that AAR canned too.

It has nothing to do with this, but it really soured me on the whole tactical community--I saw how they treated other instructors who weren't "in the fold" (Paul Howe for example) and it became apparent it was all a dick measuring contest. Vickers this, and Vickers endoresed that--there wasn't a product he wouldn't whore himself out for. Any negative was quashed and any person who even dared challenge it was smeared like a commie, Once an expert, then a fraud. (The ammo expert guy was literally like the Stalin Picture where they erased the guy and named him a fraud where 2 days before he was THE EXPERT on ammo). It was amazing to watch. It just happened on M4C. I stopped logging in and spent my time elsewhere with people who actually shot instead of playing flame war online.
 
...Kind of embarrassing then he's better at being an American than most Americans here....
I really and truly hope you’re stacked high and deep with illegal machine guns.

Edited. Thanks @mcameron 👍
 
Last edited:
I think you parsed this out quite well. The differences are indeed innumerable. Thanks for dwelling in the minutia.

But if you missed the point about the precursor to being targeted by a tyrannical government colossus is the establishment of a rule set that none of us can follow, and thus all of us are subject to prosecutorial discretion for our thoughts and political beliefs, then there is no acceptable counterargument that makes this debate fruitful.

There are a lot of bullshit gun laws; I put the NFA in this category. But it's a stretch to say that the Hughes Amendment is something that "none of us can follow". Whether you choose to do so is another question, but I'd argue that's between yourself, your loved ones, and the big guy upstairs. Keeping the federal government out of that becomes the prime directive unless you're itching to become a landmark Supreme Court case, and if that's the situation I hope one has a plan beyond typing "shall not be infringed!!!" with the caps lock in the full-auto position.

Which then brings me to the next point - if you're going to enter the world of federally licensed gun dealers (and especially Special Occupational Taxpayers), then one absolutely must know where the lines have been drawn and stay within them. Anything else is a suicide mission. Mere possession of the license is an open invite to the exact people you must hide from if you want to do this stuff the dirty way, and with every transaction you're literally sending the ATF a list of what you and your counterparties possess.

The problem that I have with these crackdowns (which resembles those by the EPA in the automotive aftermarket over the past several years) is that they're an attempt at punishing small fish who operated in a grey area with the assumption that a lack of prior enforcement was implied consent by regulatory agencies, while at the same time we see gross violations that are way past any sort of reasonable "bright line" go unpunished. That's the sort of unfairness which any grade school student can identify in about 0.3s as being total bullshit, because the brain is hard-wired to recognize such disparity. But simply raging against it from the cheap seats is also grade-school behavior.
 
Well let's just see what the author of the Declaration of Independence has to say on the matter...

View attachment 8255090
Amen.
Taking "shall not be infringed" to its logical conclusion... as a good ol pureblood 'Murican, I should be able to conceal carry a briefcase nuke.
Definitely gonna chuck that bitch in the pond and light it off to see what happens. I'll be sure to get it all on tiktok for my 'hide bros.

Ray Epps cousin @Death From A Distance said he wants to bring some friends over to come watch it with me.. should be fun.
 
You have no problem with him being prosecuted and punished "to the full extent of the law" for breaking an unconstitutional law?
Stupid analogies aside, what does it matter to the convicted individual who is sitting in a prison cell? Vickers admitted guilt by pleading guilty, period. Yes, there was no doubt some "deal" struck. Most likely involving lighter course of punishment in exchange for the guilty plea.

But the opinion of the law itself that he broke means nothing, simply because the punishment is the same regardless.

This is all in the same category as claiming there is no "law" that says you have to pay income tax. Or these idiots who claim sovereignty, and claim they don't have to obey the same laws that everyone else does.

How did not paying Federal income taxes work out for Wesley Snipes? How did claiming they were "sovereign", work out for Michael Williams on his gun charges? You can cook this up in your head all you want. And you may even be correct to some legal degree depending.

But it's not going to matter. Because spending years in prison isn't going to be easier, just because you believe you were convicted on a bogus law. And prison is exactly where Vickers is going. The only question is for how long.

 
Last edited:
And speaking of the Ol M4C (thread drift I know) it appears their fearless leader was indicted for similar shenanigans as the LAV--this time using law enforement to procure ammo during 'the shortage' and resale.


Was refreshing my memory of the good old days and shenanigans that went down.

Still waiting on the Colt CM762 Grant, I know the waiting list is long...

(for those not in the know Grant Timberlake was head douchebag over at m4c and has a history in the firearms community of asshatery)
 
It wasn't between him and m4c, basically someone took a class (think it was the ammo expert guy who posted all the ammo tests) from Ken Hackathorn. It wasn't like glowing, 100% god worship and the entire forum collectively lost their shit--seriously I think the comment that sent everyone into orbit was 'I was disaapointed in the amount of shooting' (my recollection). Vickers had a bunch of implied threats about after action reports. It was then I realized the whole training thing pushed over there was a just a scam

Coupled with I think it was the owner of M4C running a shoothouse where they went full retard with gun safety rules, someone also called him on it, led to his (Grant?) "Vickers Endoresed Instructor" getting revoked and then quietly re-instated by Vickers. It was "lets run around with loaded guns pointed at each other AND take photos of it" stupid level safety violation and the defense was "Big Boy Rules" They got that AAR canned too.

It has nothing to do with this, but it really soured me on the whole tactical community--I saw how they treated other instructors who weren't "in the fold" (Paul Howe for example) and it became apparent it was all a dick measuring contest. Vickers this, and Vickers endoresed that--there wasn't a product he wouldn't whore himself out for. Any negative was quashed and any person who even dared challenge it was smeared like a commie, Once an expert, then a fraud. (The ammo expert guy was literally like the Stalin Picture where they erased the guy and named him a fraud where 2 days before he was THE EXPERT on ammo). It was amazing to watch. It just happened on M4C. I stopped logging in and spent my time elsewhere with people who actually shot instead of playing flame war online.
I remember reading your stuff over there. That site has REALLY gone downhill since I first joined it 10 years ago. I did take a LAV pistol class twice and learned a lot. But I did expect more, but I gained good fundamentals and some really good drills from it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pbgt
Vickers should leave the United States and never return, he should also never enter into the EU or any NATO nation or nation that would extradite him to the USA.

I often advise friends, colleagues, clients, anybody who is willing to listen, "if you are convicted of a felony in the United States, unless you can receive a pardon from your governor if it is a state felony, or a pardon from the President if it is a federal felony, there is absolutely no reason to remain in the United States, you are under a firearms disability and your life is effectively over, unless you have an 8 figure or higher net worth, and even then you can still have a better quality of life as a man with $90,000,000 in say Switzerland, Paraguay, Uruguay, or New Zealand at that point."

If you told me I could never lawfully own a gun in the United States for the rest of my life, I would probably leave tomorrow.

Vickers should go to Russia and see if they will allow him citizenship in exchange for taking on a role as a trainer, instructor, consultant for their recruits and special forces. It is what I would do if I had a background in Delta Force and had just become a felon under a lifetime firearms disability.

Take away the ability to lawfully own firearms for individual and home/family defense, and the United States is actually a fairly crappy country as far as countries go, and I say that as a man who has been to about 15 countries on 3 continents and lived in South America for a while. There are dozens of countries with far better infrastructure, far more political stability, vastly better food, far healthier populations, with average women who are far healthier and better looking, better overall weather, better overall culture without woke BS, etc. Seriously, if you take away a man's ability to lawfully own firearms, there is very little the United States has left to offer that would entice him to want to stay.
 
Last edited:
Maybe this is all just 4D chess. Now Vickers has standing to challenge the NFA in a post Bruen environment. Genius…

Any lawyer who would advise a client to commit a serious felony that entails multiple years in prison and a lifelong firearms disability, to gain standing to challenge a statute that could be challenged without such conduct, should be [successfully] sued for malpractice and probably disbarred.

I would advise a client, "Submit a Form 1 to the ATF to make and register a fully-automatic firearm, at the same time submit a Form 4 to transfer a post-1986 fully automatic firearm, both will be denied on the basis the registry is closed for such things, then you have standing to challenge them with a lawsuit filed in District Court. There is no need to commit a felony to gain standing."

I've been trying to raise that with NRA, GOA, anybody who will listen, but every single gun rights entity I try to converse with has absolutely no interest in challenging the 1986 Hughes Amendment or the NFA in any capacity. None of them are interested in a court challenge in that regard.

At some point in 2024 or 2025, if I have the time and am not otherwise busy doing work that generates money, I may endeavor to find a client who is willing to submit such forms to gain standing, and just do the challenge myself without any organizational assistance from any established big boys or heavy hitters.

I also tried to confer with GOA on how to mount a challenge against New York and California for refusing to recognize out of state concealed carry permits and for simultaneously refusing to issue permits to non-residents, thereby effectively barring all out of state residents from any mechanism to lawfully carry a concealed pistol within their respective states. No interest in any such challenge. I discussed the legal theories with a friend who is a lawyer and pistol instructor in Texas and he believed my ideas have merit and could succeed. I also discussed the ideas with a friend who is a lawyer in Michigan who has done a lot of 1st Amendment work and some 2nd Amendment in the context of getting felons relief from disability and restoration of firearms and he also believed my theories have merit and that the challenge could succeed.

I have very little faith in the NRA to do anything. I have moderately more faith in the GOA, but I doubt they will do anything significant for the NFA/full auto and I suspect the concealed carry non-resident/reciprocity matter is dead on arrival with the established organizations.
 
I would advise a client, "Submit a Form 1 to the ATF to make and register a fully-automatic firearm, at the same time submit a Form 4 to transfer a post-1986 fully automatic firearm, both will be denied on the basis the registry is closed for such things, then you have standing to challenge them with a lawsuit filed in District Court. There is no need to commit a felony to gain standing."
Didn't they try that in Texas?
 
Didn't they try that in Texas?


If they did, it is the first I am hearing about it. I'll talk to my lawyer friend in Texas and see if he has knowledge of that.

Ideally, any such campaign would entail bringing suits in 3-5 different circuits, say the 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, and maybe the 10th, to get a likely circuit split with probably the 5th, 6th, and 8th circuits siding against the NFA/Hughes Amendment.
 
Do you think everyone else is waiting to see what happens with pistol braces, bump stocks, forced reset triggers and the auto key card cases?
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
Do you think everyone else is waiting to see what happens with pistol braces, bump stocks, forced reset triggers and the auto key card cases?

I think the striking down of the Hughes Amendment, or especially the entire NFA, would moot the entire issue of pistol braces, bump stocks, trigger resets, etc., and it would secure significant gun rights for a generation, and sort of put some of the organizations "on ice" so to speak, unable to raise tens of millions of dollars from donors.

I don't believe any of them have any real intention of mounting a direct challenge to the NFA or even just the Hughes Amendment to get the registry open to new full-auto.

They trim and prune the branches but won't swing the axe at the trunk. I just don't see any serious determination to drive hard against the NFA in a direct facial challenge.

Bump stocks and pistol braces are frankly trivial and are not something I would expend significant amounts of resources litigating over. I would rather litigate over the very NFA itself and moot the issues on simulated full auto toys and pistol braces making rifles SBR, by simply eliminating regulations/classification of the SBR.

Many of these organizations need ongoing crisis situations to justify raising money from donors.

A fire department that never has a fire to put out, will quickly find its budget slashed. There has to be some fire, somewhere, at some point, or else people will grow complacent and won't pay up.

The NRA needs ongoing threats to gun rights and ongoing litigation over trivial gun rights issues.

Don't forget, the NRA did not support Heller in the Heller v DC case and they tried to derail his progress to getting before the US Supreme Court.


Four years into the litigation, Parker and four other original plaintiffs were dropped from the case because they lacked legal standing, meaning they hadn’t suffered enough of an “injury,” in technical terms, to file suit. Heller, meanwhile, still held the trump card that vonBreichenrucharft had engineered: the denied gun permit. That was enough to sue. Parker v. D.C. was renamed Heller v. D.C., with Dick Heller as the sole plaintiff.


The case still faced other hurdles. Early on, lawyers for the NRA — fearing pro-gun forces lacked enough votes to convince a Supreme Court majority that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to bear arms — tried to talk Levy out of pursuing the case. They then attempted to dissuade him from using as his lead lawyer an untested sole practitioner, Alan Gura. Doubting Heller’s prospects, the NRA filed a competing suit, Seegars v. Ashcroft, helmed by a leading Second Amendment advocate, Stephen Halbrook.


The NRA’s concerns were strategic, but Levy says now that something else was going on. “I think the real concern was that three lawyers from outside the NRA started stepping on some toes, and the NRA wasn’t appreciative,” he says.


During the Supreme Court oral arguments in Heller, Gura claimed the court could secure gun rights for individuals while still allowing for certain restrictions, such as a machine gun ban. Gura’s concession — followed by language in Scalia’s majority opinion that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt” on longstanding regulations such as restrictions on felons “or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms” — realigned the spectrum of gun-rights advocates. Gura had spent the previous five years racing past the NRA, fueled by a belief that they could upend centuries of law. But even that brash position paled in comparison with the radicalism of absolutists, and now Gura and his associates found themselves to the left of hard-line advocates.
 
Vickers should leave the United States and never return, he should also never enter into the EU or any NATO nation or nation that would extradite him to the USA.

I often advise friends, colleagues, clients, anybody who is willing to listen, "if you are convicted of a felony in the United States, unless you can receive a pardon from your governor if it is a state felony, or a pardon from the President if it is a federal felony, there is absolutely no reason to remain in the United States, you are under a firearms disability and your life is effectively over, unless you have an 8 figure or higher net worth, and even then you can still have a better quality of life as a man with $90,000,000 in say Switzerland, Paraguay, Uruguay, or New Zealand at that point."

If you told me I could never lawfully own a gun in the United States for the rest of my life, I would probably leave tomorrow.

Vickers should go to Russia and see if they will allow him citizenship in exchange for taking on a role as a trainer, instructor, consultant for their recruits and special forces. It is what I would do if I had a background in Delta Force and had just become a felon under a lifetime firearms disability.

Take away the ability to lawfully own firearms for individual and home/family defense, and the United States is actually a fairly crappy country as far as countries go, and I say that as a man who has been to about 15 countries on 3 continents and lived in South America for a while. There are dozens of countries with far better infrastructure, far more political stability, vastly better food, far healthier populations, with average women who are far healthier and better looking, better overall weather, better overall culture without woke BS, etc. Seriously, if you take away a man's ability to lawfully own firearms, there is very little the United States has left to offer that would entice him to want to stay.
I am not going to argue with many other countries having
vastly better food, far healthier populations, with average women who are far healthier and better looking
but I cannot think of a single place that has all attributes in your list connected with the AND operator as in
with far better infrastructure AND far more political stability AND vastly better food AND far healthier populations AND with average women who are far healthier and better looking AND better overall weather AND better overall culture without woke BS.
Also, weather and culture varies greatly throughout the U.S.
 
I think the striking down of the Hughes Amendment, or especially the entire NFA, would moot the entire issue of pistol braces, bump stocks, trigger resets, etc., and it would secure significant gun rights for a generation, and sort of put some of the organizations "on ice" so to speak, unable to raise tens of millions of dollars from donors.

I don't believe any of them have any real intention of mounting a direct challenge to the NFA or even just the Hughes Amendment to get the registry open to new full-auto.

They trim and prune the branches but won't swing the axe at the trunk. I just don't see any serious determination to drive hard against the NFA in a direct facial challenge.

Bump stocks and pistol braces are frankly trivial and are not something I would expend significant amounts of resources litigating over. I would rather litigate over the very NFA itself and moot the issues on simulated full auto toys and pistol braces making rifles SBR, by simply eliminating regulations/classification of the SBR.

Many of these organizations need ongoing crisis situations to justify raising money from donors.

A fire department that never has a fire to put out, will quickly find its budget slashed. There has to be some fire, somewhere, at some point, or else people will grow complacent and won't pay up.

The NRA needs ongoing threats to gun rights and ongoing litigation over trivial gun rights issues.

Don't forget, the NRA did not support Heller in the Heller v DC case and they tried to derail his progress to getting before the US Supreme Court.


Four years into the litigation, Parker and four other original plaintiffs were dropped from the case because they lacked legal standing, meaning they hadn’t suffered enough of an “injury,” in technical terms, to file suit. Heller, meanwhile, still held the trump card that vonBreichenrucharft had engineered: the denied gun permit. That was enough to sue. Parker v. D.C. was renamed Heller v. D.C., with Dick Heller as the sole plaintiff.


The case still faced other hurdles. Early on, lawyers for the NRA — fearing pro-gun forces lacked enough votes to convince a Supreme Court majority that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to bear arms — tried to talk Levy out of pursuing the case. They then attempted to dissuade him from using as his lead lawyer an untested sole practitioner, Alan Gura. Doubting Heller’s prospects, the NRA filed a competing suit, Seegars v. Ashcroft, helmed by a leading Second Amendment advocate, Stephen Halbrook.


The NRA’s concerns were strategic, but Levy says now that something else was going on. “I think the real concern was that three lawyers from outside the NRA started stepping on some toes, and the NRA wasn’t appreciative,” he says.


During the Supreme Court oral arguments in Heller, Gura claimed the court could secure gun rights for individuals while still allowing for certain restrictions, such as a machine gun ban. Gura’s concession — followed by language in Scalia’s majority opinion that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt” on longstanding regulations such as restrictions on felons “or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms” — realigned the spectrum of gun-rights advocates. Gura had spent the previous five years racing past the NRA, fueled by a belief that they could upend centuries of law. But even that brash position paled in comparison with the radicalism of absolutists, and now Gura and his associates found themselves to the left of hard-line advocates.
I discussed the Heller case with Robert Levy on a hike in western North Carolina. His interest was the libertarian angle of Heller being denied the right to self protection. He did not seem to care particularly about "guns rights" per se. If you want to get his opinion directly, please PM me.

There may be a small chance to get the NFA amended and get the SBR/SBS restrictions removed. These restrictions were added when the bill also contained a handgun ban. Simply by shortening the barrels of non banned long gun this planned handgun ban could be circumvented. The closing of this potential loophole via SBR/SBS restriction was unfortunately left in place when the handgun ban did not get enough support and was stricken.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: lash
A court packed with nine die hard Constitutionalists, and argued by three dozen of the top 2A lawyers, would still shoot down an NFA/Hughes challenge 8-1, the one being just for show.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: Forgetful Coyote
With all the talk about challenging the Hughes amendment, does anyone want to opine on the sketchy vote that made it law and challenges based on that?
 
IMHO, striking down the entire NFA frightens the libtards beyond belief.

It's a bit of a stretch but a case that has the potential of striking down the NFA stirs up the same amount of fear that the Dred Scott case did before the SCOTUS ruled on it in 1857.

Why do I say that? History backs that up for sure. What reinforces my premise on the fear factor was in the very ruling itself.

In the opinion, Chief Justice Roger Taney wrote:

"For if they were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State."

Translation: We can't let them darkies carry any guns. Ain't nobody gonna be safe; especially white women!

That's exactly what pro-slavery people were afraid of. In the same manner, the libtards are frightened to death at the prospect of anyone carrying FA weapons anywhere they please. Some fence-setters are equally as frightened.

In both examples, the fears are unfounded as anyone on this thread already knows.

The problem with those unfounded fears, the courts and politicians are just as frightened of losing their jobs over toppling the NFA.

Since we are on the topic of fears, the anti-gunners have learned a very hard lesson on the loosening of gun control laws in the country. The predictions of bloodbaths everywhere haven't materialized with the advent of the loosening of the concealed carry laws; especially the constitutional carry states.

Despite their lies, the anti-gunners know the real truth. The prevalence of a lot of guns actually saves lives. They have egg on their faces and the people that were once on the fence also know the truth behind the real statistics.

So the real fear that the anti-gunners have is not more firearms death. Their fear is a further reduction of crime when more guns with happy switches hitting the streets. It will mean a loss in so many ways for them.

When there is plenty of rain for the crops, there is no need to pay the witch doctor for a rain dance. The choreographers for the rain dancers look forward to a drought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash and Tx_Aggie
With all the talk about challenging the Hughes amendment, does anyone want to opine on the sketchy vote that made it law and challenges based on that?


The Supreme Court will not second guess Congress on the procedure. If Congress recorded that a bill passed with a particular vote, the Supreme Court will not accept a challenge to that assertion/record of Congress.

In short, if Congress states that a legislation passed, then it passed.
 
I discussed the Heller case with Robert Levy on a hike in western North Carolina. His interest was the libertarian angle of Heller being denied the right to self protection. He did not seem to care particularly about "guns rights" per se. If you want to get his opinion directly, please PM me.

There may be a small chance to get the NFA amended and get the SBR/SBS restrictions removed. These restrictions were added when the bill also contained a handgun ban. Simply by shortening the barrels of non banned long gun this planned handgun ban could be circumvented. The closing of this potential loophole via SBR/SBS restriction was unfortunately left in place when the handgun ban did not get enough support and was stricken.


I believe that the following is reasonably attainable with diligent and determined court challenges and legislation.

1- Removal of suppressors from the NFA [primarily legislative, also somewhat judicial].

2- Removal of SBR/SBS from the NFA [primarily legislative, also somewhat judicial].

3- Striking down of state laws that completely ban civilian ownership of suppressors [judicial].

4- Striking down of the Hughes Amendment and opening the registry to registration of new fully-automatic weapons [judicial].
 
I am not going to argue with many other countries having

but I cannot think of a single place that has all attributes in your list connected with the AND operator as in

Also, weather and culture varies greatly throughout the U.S.


I may have exaggerated and over-used the AND in a list where not all of those qualities would be found within the same nation, excepting perhaps Switzerland or New Zealand, which are better than the USA in most regards by reasonably objective standards. Although New Zealand may be more woke than the USA.

In many ways the USA has third world levels of infrastructure in much of the country, so it is little different from say Brazil or Paraguay where the major flagship cities are amazing but the areas immediately outside of city limits are in ruins, although in the USA it is often a case where suburbs have better infrastructure and the core urban areas are crumbling.

Seriously, go to Paraguay, as soon as you leave a major city in some areas, the road goes from paved [with amazing quality] to immediately dirt, if you're lucky dirt/gravel, but it is conceptually no different from an urban area in the USA with crumbling roads that have 18 inch deep pot holes every 5-10 feet.


I discussed the concept of the USA with a number of friends once, in the sense of, "the USA is an amazing place to GET rich but it is a horrible place to BE rich." If you cannot make a fortune in the USA you simply don't have it in you to make a fortune, but if you make your fortune, you will probably have a much more pleasant life in Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Costa Rica, Panama, Switzerland, New Zealand, Namibia, etc. Of course the corollary to that is if you are born in Switzerland in a household to lower-middle class civil servant parents, you are never [99.5% of the time] going to get rich by remaining in Switzerland.
 
Play stupid games win stupid prizes….applies here!!!

Making up the demo sheets and fucked around then found out.
It is what it is at this point.
The demo applications are great for playing around and making business work but it’s constantly abused and I swear I believe the ATF approves these applications because they have figured out that it’s constantly abused. Hell their own agents build, move, utilize, play, work, and sell to anyone with fat pockets firearms illegally to especially south of the border fucktards on the daily…
I’d be hard pressed to believe that even 80% of SOT holders aren’t criminalistic minded or haven’t been tempted. Money truly is the Root of ALL EVIL……

Drink five….
 
Totally a sting. See my post above from the article.
Yeah, it was a sting and Vickers knew FATF had a target on his back but just couldn't help himself.

This is a repeat story I've seen before in the gun/shooting business, just different actors. Hubris, greed, stupidity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
I’d be hard pressed to believe that even 80% of SOT holders aren’t criminalistic minded or haven’t been tempted.
I never met Mr Vickers, but I truly think hes a good guy and on our side all the way, with no intention of any sort of malice. Its the law thats fckn stupid.

But to your point...


El Mencho's CJNG(Cartel Jalisco Nueva Generacion) apparently has 12+ functioning miniguns... :oops:
Lets all give a round of applause to the ATF for taking down a menace like Larry Vickers! They have to prioritize their cases ya know? Its far more important LAV is prevented from having a little fun and making some entertaining vids, than stopping one of the world's 2 most powerful drug cartels right across our border having the ability to go toe-to-toe with a fckn battalion of Mexican Marines...
 
Last edited:
Vickers should leave the United States and never return, he should also never enter into the EU or any NATO nation or nation that would extradite him to the USA.

I often advise friends, colleagues, clients, anybody who is willing to listen, "if you are convicted of a felony in the United States, unless you can receive a pardon from your governor if it is a state felony, or a pardon from the President if it is a federal felony, there is absolutely no reason to remain in the United States, you are under a firearms disability and your life is effectively over, unless you have an 8 figure or higher net worth, and even then you can still have a better quality of life as a man with $90,000,000 in say Switzerland, Paraguay, Uruguay, or New Zealand at that point."

If you told me I could never lawfully own a gun in the United States for the rest of my life, I would probably leave tomorrow.

Vickers should go to Russia and see if they will allow him citizenship in exchange for taking on a role as a trainer, instructor, consultant for their recruits and special forces. It is what I would do if I had a background in Delta Force and had just become a felon under a lifetime firearms disability.

Take away the ability to lawfully own firearms for individual and home/family defense, and the United States is actually a fairly crappy country as far as countries go, and I say that as a man who has been to about 15 countries on 3 continents and lived in South America for a while. There are dozens of countries with far better infrastructure, far more political stability, vastly better food, far healthier populations, with average women who are far healthier and better looking, better overall weather, better overall culture without woke BS, etc. Seriously, if you take away a man's ability to lawfully own firearms, there is very little the United States has left to offer that would entice him to want to stay.
You can’t give a speech like this and not name the 10 best places to move outside the USA
 
  • Like
Reactions: AmmoFort
Meanwhile I'm still thinking all these laws are unconstitutional anyway... and what's a patriotic veteran like Larry doing pleading guilty for... ?
He has to know damn well it's just another feather in the cap of more 2A control.




... and therefore more "people" control.
 
You can’t give a speech like this and not name the 10 best places to move outside the USA


It depends on what you want out of life, what your resources/means are, what your skills are, what your worldview is, and what sort of lifestyle you expect and plan for.

If you don't give a fig about guns and you just want to loaf on a beach in a warm climate with cheap rent and quality food, Thailand.

If you want warm weather, some guns, affordable land and housing, quality food, and you don't mind the corruption and occasional communist rebels/insurgents, Paraguay.

If all you want to do is get legally loaded on LSD on a regular basis, with cheap healthcare and housing, then probably Portugal.

Every man is going to have his own set of criteria and he will weight different aspects of existence/society more heavily.



My personal top 10 would probably be-

Russia, Belarus, Paraguay, Chile, Uruguay, Namibia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Costa Rica, and Kazakhstan.

If you're a felon in the USA, removing guns from your life in the USA with no possibility to get your gun rights back in the USA, you will likely have a more enjoyable, calmer, safer, quieter/stable life in any of the ten countries I listed above, also with the added bonus of the possibility of lawful gun ownership.

Another benefit of Russia would be agricultural land east of Moscow and west of the Urals is about $60 per acre for quality pasture land and $100-$200 per acre for arable farm/crop land, world class university education is less than $5,000 for a 4 year degree, food is healthy, and the culture/psychology is far healthier than anything in the United States. In Russia you can buy a 2 acre build lot about 2 hours outside of Moscow, for $3,000 and then get a solid quality 1800 square foot house for about $120,000 or a basic quality for about $80,000, with the possibility to own shotguns, bolt-action rifles, some semi-auto rifles, although probably never handguns (not legally/easily anyway).

In the USA you and your son go $200,000 in debt for him to get a 4 year degree and come home claiming to be a woman. You and your daughter go $200,000 in debt for her to come home as a run through jaded burnt out feminist with a body count higher than Carlos Hathcock.

Take away the guns and there is very little reason to remain in the USA unless you are really motivated to want to fight in an upcoming civil war, which will be very uncivil and inhumane.
 
Meanwhile I'm still thinking all these laws are unconstitutional anyway... and what's a patriotic veteran like Larry doing pleading guilty for... ?
He has to know damn well it's just another feather in the cap of more 2A control.




... and therefore more "people" control.

"Don't plead guilty, be patriotic" is easy to say when you're not the one facing a maximum sentence and the prospect of dying of cancer while incarcerated for the rest of your life. They probably struck a deal that is going to see him given a max of 1-2 years of probation.

If a criminal defendant has something to prove and insists he isn't pleading guilty because the law is wrong, well if the options are "plead guilty and receive 5 years probation" vs "face a certain conviction and the maximum sentence in a federal prison" it is easy to say he should take this trial, lose, and accept his sentence, but would you?

Honestly, Vickers should just flip the bird to the United States for all it has done "thanking him" for his service, go to Russia, and become a consultant for Russian special ops, a position he could easily land given his background in Delta. Americans would probably call him a traitor, but his nation has discarded him, he was the one sold out and betrayed, and he ultimately has to do what works for him.

Patriotism isn't going to cure his cancer and patriotism won't keep him safe in a federal prison. He should flee.
 
You should flee and take all your high and mighty anti-American bullshit with you. It’s obvious that you only stay here because there’s better and more money in it for you here. Your loyalty lasts as long as the dollars are flowing your way. Fuck off.
 
You should flee and take all your high and mighty anti-American bullshit with you. It’s obvious that you only stay here because there’s better and more money in it for you here. Your loyalty lasts as long as the dollars are flowing your way. Fuck off.
You got to understand that he doesn’t live in FL so of course his views are different haha
 
Yeah, that’s all well and good, but he sounds just exactly like all of the political power leeches in DC that truly only have one goal in mind, money. He can go preach in another country that he’s only using for personal gain. His commitment is solely to himself. Bravo for him, but take your shit elsewhere then if this country sucks so much.

Why doesn’t he? The money is better here. Then, once he’s taken all he feels he needs, he will head to another country and bash us from there, like every other leech that professes to care. It’s as plain as the day is long. 😉
 
  • Like
Reactions: armorpl8chikn
You should flee and take all your high and mighty anti-American bullshit with you. It’s obvious that you only stay here because there’s better and more money in it for you here. Your loyalty lasts as long as the dollars are flowing your way. Fuck off.
1698158068671.jpeg



1698158084513.jpeg



When you experience 1500% inflation and your kids are starving, let me know if your stupid miniature flag and your Archie Bunker attitude of shouting, "USA! USA!" fills their empty bellies.

I've lived in other countries. I've been around the world. You seem to believe the USA is the only place with running water and edible food.

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on being a functional country with clean drinking water. In many regards the USA fails with basic infrastructure.

See if your flag-waving patriotism will fix the roads, the bridges, the dams, the failing grid. Go on, shout "USA!" for as long as you need until our infrastructure is fixed, our currency is stabilized, and our borders are secure. I'll wait.



Many of us our thankful that our ancestors left their messed up broken wrecks of nations when they did. In the 1990s many Russians went out of their way to come to the USA. The time is fast approaching, and is largely already here, where only the most absolute destitute miserable third world peasants from places such as Somalia and Haiti want to come to the United States. We are approaching a point where we will either embark on a painful road to national recovery that restores and redeems the United States, or we will descend into a miserable existence where our children and grandchildren will curse us for not having left for a more functional and viable country when the opportunity was available. It is quite possible that the generation that will be born in the 2030s is going to loathe and despise their parents for conferring American citizenship upon them at the time of their birth.


The USA is largely a broke woke joke.

The country is either going to undergo a mass awakening and uprising, or just wither and die on the vine.


It may shock you to learn that since you don't pay my bills, I don't give a hill of beans what you think about me, how I make my money, how I pay my bills, or that I look out for my interests because nobody else is going to do it for me.

When you pay my bills you can tell me how I should view the world and how I should prioritize things in life.

One of my best friends and legal colleagues was a Marine rifleman before he went to college, got a 4 year degree and then went on to law school. Want to see what he got for his service? He got a handicapped parking sticker, a diagnosis of PTSD and bipolar, pills, and ongoing appointments with all sorts of experts who haven't been able to do much to help him out, and he got clowns like you saying, "thank you for your service" to him and shouting at me for not wanting to get on board with that lifestyle and not claiming the USA is the end-all be-all of human existence and the best possible nation in the history of the entire world.

The USA is very similar to Late Republican Rome of the 1st century BC, in short, an ongoing dumpster fire of a society that is imploding.


Having read thousands of books and having studied the classics [I have a classical education as my foundation] I would say that ultimately Cato [the Younger] and Cicero both died for nothing, as they ultimately both failed to achieve their goals of preserving the Roman Republic. I am not willing to die for nothing. I will die for something meaningful and of a greater purpose, but not for nothing. If Americans rise up and inaugurate a civil war, I'll participate, but I'm not going to stay on a slowly sinking ship out of some misguided sense of foolish Archie Bunker cave-man patriotism, while everybody declines to do anything. I'm also not going to go off half-cocked as a lone-wolf revolutionary. In short, I'm not throwing the opening pitch for a revolution or a civil war, and if the game doesn't ultimately begin at some point then I will just get up and leave the stadium rather than rot in my seat.

Thomas Jefferson would have already organized a revolution. George Washington would have taken one look at the American people, washed his hands of them and retired to his estate. I'm okay with either of those options or anything in-between. It makes very little difference to me. I meet my work obligations, read, study, train BJJ/MMA, stay active outside, shoot precision rifles twice a week, regularly shoot pistols and carbines, plan, prepare, enjoy life, and do something each day to improve my mind, body, skills, finances, etc.

As one solitary man I cannot hold back the tide or change the course of a river. I've spent my entire life to this point preparing, waiting, and looking for a George Washington or Thomas Jefferson to rally to his banner, and I have never found any man worthy of having my rifle or my pen in his service.

It isn't my fault that your generation and your parent's generation lost this country for me and that I was born into the generation I was born into, thrown into the chaos of this modern world, and now I have to navigate all of this in the manner I see best, while dealing with clowns on the sidelines criticizing me. If it isn't the Woke Left condemning me for merely existing as a heterosexual white Christian male who is physically fit and upper-middle class, it is the Retrograde Neanderthal Right condemning me for not having an idolatrous altar devoted to the United States central government on my desk and a miniature American flag coming out of my ass.

The USA isn't a horrible place, but it is far from a great place. It is a basic normal nation with some strengths but unfortunately some significant flaws. It isn't my problem if you're sharing the mentality of some 300lb woman who claims Lizzo is a gorgeous 10/10 and you're so delusional you can't see obvious flaws and weaknesses. The USA is not perfect and I will never pretend it is. Indeed the USA has major flaws and is close to collapse.
 
Last edited:
Patriotism isn't going to cure his cancer and patriotism won't keep him safe in a federal prison. He should flee.
Trump should too. To hell with letting them fckrs throw you in prison... get out while the gettin is good. Putin would let both of them come safely live in Russia.