THE MGD

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Ok guys,
carrying a 9mm S&W Shield now. Loaded, with one in the chamber, safety on, carried right behind the strong side hip.
Heres my problem: I tried a buddies apex trigger!
So my question to you all is: should you or should you not modify your conceal carry pistol?

I want to drop in the apex kit but the thought of blowing my ass cheeck off when i sit down scares the hell out of me. I would get this installed by a qualified gunsmith. Do i have reasonable worry? are there any legal mumbo jumbo reasons i should reconsider?

thank you for any help or opinions,
MGD
 

lash

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With an Apex trigger kit in there you should have no worries about shooting your but cheek off as it is not a "hair trigger" like the old modified sears of past days. You still have a full trigger pull required in order to engage the striker and fire the weapon. You will not be changing the safety of the weapon...IMO. I'm neither an expert nor a gunsmith, but have been using an Apex kit in my comp. S&W M&P 9 for a while. So, there's an opinion for you.

As to the legal mumbo-jumbo, I will walk quietly away from that one. This has been bashed about quite a bit here in other threads. Here's one recent "for example":
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...9-new-s-w-j-frame-642-trigger-action-job.html
 

Unknown

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Keep in mind that in a wrongful death suit an attorney will attempt to use any modifications to make you appear more bloodthirsty. It is not always a successful way to go because many modifications are done to make a firearm safer, or more accurate, hence safer. Modifications can go either way in an instance like that, but this is something that should be considered before you need to explain yourself. maintaining silence is always advised, I am merely suggesting you think about how you would explain it to YOUR attorney, and consider whether your attorney can work with your logic.
 

WyldeDime

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You do whatever you need to do to your gun to make it suit you better. To make you more comfortable and proficient with it.

If a shooting is good, it's good.
 

seanh

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No such thing as a "good shoot" as a civilian if the alleged attacker has any family. For a defensive pistol, you don't make the gun suit you, you shoot enough to become proficient with that weapon as is from the factory.
 

turbo54

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Guess I don't see what's to be gained with the modified fire control.

Are you using the pistol in IDPA? USPSA? IPSC?

Do your scores need improvement the trigger is going to net you?

If not, again I ask what the FCG is going to do for you.

Score a perfect headshot on a perp like James Holmes @ the movie theatre?

Self defense situations happen fast and the decrease in creep and/or trigger release weight won't be perceived.

If the pistol has a serious deficiency I could understand, but they're pretty darn decent as is.
 

sageebr24

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Unknown said it well. I have both modified pistols and stock pistols i tend to carry he stock ones all the time because if i ever had to use it I would never have to explain why I felt like the pistol needed moded from the way the factory intended it to be.
 

Gildoom

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My CCW carry guns I do not do a damn thing to them, I even shoot FMJ. For previous comments, in court they are going to make even your clothes an issue, imagine trigger, rounds, sights, all of it.
 

Landon

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My CCW carry guns I do not do a damn thing to them, I even shoot FMJ. For previous comments, in court they are going to make even your clothes an issue, imagine trigger, rounds, sights, all of it.

Where does this fear come from? Are there cases out there that substantiate this or are you just hedging and making a worst case assumption?
 

Raptorx

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Put the APEX Shield carry kit in and call it a day. It's meant for duty and carry situations. Personally I like the M&P's but hate the sand grit feeling the trigger has, the APEX fixes that. Don't worry about all this lawyer talk, if you feel you will like the gun better with the trigger enhancemnt do it. If your civil suit is hanging on a trigger job there is something a little more fishy going on there.
 

Gildoom

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Where does this fear come from? Are there cases out there that substantiate this or are you just hedging and making a worst case assumption?

The NRA's CCW video they showed at the CCW class I took was a good indicator. As well a shooting that happened in the Flagstaff area, retired old school teacher shoots crazy guy who has dogs attacking him, went to jail. During the trial they went after the kind of ammo, all sorts of things, made the dead guy sound like a saint (his drug use was not allowed in court and the picture of the dead guy was when he was normal, working and drug free). He just recently got released, but was in prison I believe for over 4 years.

http://azstarnet.com/news/state-and...cle_8a7e2fd5-4048-596e-8a48-ef099272f74b.html

If you have ever had Jury Duty, you should heed this advice, as when you see what happens in court, it isn't anything like on TV. Truth be damned, intent of the law be damned, they treat it like a board game and the means to advance a political career.

I should also add, the officers on scene said that they had never seen a better self defense shooting. Guess what? They weren't allowed to testify. The retired teacher, even tried to give first aid to the guy he shot! Didn't care, they played some of the trial on the news and I remember how the prosecution was looking for anything. Y U CARRY U R LUK 4 FIGHT!!! The prosecutor was a flaming anti-gun guy, and manipulated the evidence allowed through trickery to filter data to which the jury tried him as such. When jurors heard the rest of the evidence post trial, they were very upset and said they put an innocent man to jail.

So, when I do carry, it is a factory gun, with factory ammo, FMJ and I never carry reloads. During the class they showed an example of someone who had used reloads and it was used against them in Court.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2790117/posts

Sorry here is a better story of what happened.
 
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Graham

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Keep in mind that in a wrongful death suit an attorney will attempt to use any modifications to make you appear more bloodthirsty. It is not always a successful way to go because many modifications are done to make a firearm safer, or more accurate, hence safer. Modifications can go either way in an instance like that, but this is something that should be considered before you need to explain yourself. maintaining silence is always advised, I am merely suggesting you think about how you would explain it to YOUR attorney, and consider whether your attorney can work with your logic.
Unknown said it well. I have both modified pistols and stock pistols i tend to carry he stock ones all the time because if i ever had to use it I would never have to explain why I felt like the pistol needed moded from the way the factory intended it to be.
If you have ever had Jury Duty, you should heed this advice, as when you see what happens in court, it isn't anything like on TV. Truth be damned, intent of the law be damned, they treat it like a board game and the means to advance a political career...So, when I do carry, it is a factory gun, with factory ammo, FMJ and I never carry reloads. During the class they showed an example of someone who had used reloads and it was used against them in Court.
I still think you guys read too many gun magazines, but that's just my opinion.

Here's a Thread on the identical topic recently covered on this Site:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...9-new-s-w-j-frame-642-trigger-action-job.html
 
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kraigWY

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I don't know about the Apex trigger, its probably ok and safe,

BUT

If you are worrying about an un-intentual discharge forget it. On a carry pistol/revolver I don't want to worry about anything. I want to only know its there, if I pull it out of my pocket, it will work and NOT worry about shooting my self in the ass.

The only exception is I carry a Smith 642, I did add CT laser sights. To get use to the trigger, I dry fired the crap out of it. I know if the gun goes off when it isn't suppose to, its something I did, not something I added to the gun.

I just don't like worrying about anything when it comes to a Self Defense pistol or revolver.
 

wilecoyote

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I don't know your shooting proficience nor your Country's Laws, but you can bet that the human reflexes on a stress condition aren't the same as the sunday shooting stand, therefore the force applied from the hand muscles to the grip/trigger can change abruptly, for sure even more if coupled with a fast draw ..._ Please,consider that_ With all my respect, all my wishes you NEVER need it_
 

Graham

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I don't know your shooting proficience nor your Country's Laws, but you can bet that the human reflexes on a stress condition aren't the same as the sunday shooting stand, therefore the force applied from the hand muscles to the grip/trigger can change abruptly, for sure even more if coupled with a fast draw ..._ Please,consider that_ With all my respect, all my wishes you NEVER need it_
Good point: Are you talking about a sympathetic squeeze?

The stress (and adrenalin) encountered in a lethal force situation is known to intensify the force of gross motor actions, including involuntary muscle contractions. A sympathetic grip or interlimb response can cause the trigger finger of the responding limb (the shooting hand) to contract with a force sufficient to overcome the trigger pull weight of practically any firearm, including that of a double action revolver (which was at one time mistakenly believed to be a fail-safe mechanism against unintentional discharge). This bio-mechanical phenomena is the reason for what is known as Universal Cover Mode (UCM), a policy of both muzzle and trigger discipline applicable to the holding (or ‘covering’) of a suspect with a drawn firearm.
 

wilecoyote

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Good point: Are you talking about a sympathetic squeeze?
Sir, I don't know if that's his name, but what you've descripted is exactly what I have tested fast-drawing&shootin' my snub mod.19 : as tinkerer, I was very proud of her "by-myself-massaged-silky-smooth-DA", but as erected bipod, I'm very happy because I can count all my ten footfingers_ enough said_
 
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Landon

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The NRA's CCW video they showed at the CCW class I took was a good indicator. As well a shooting that happened in the Flagstaff area, retired old school teacher shoots crazy guy who has dogs attacking him, went to jail. During the trial they went after the kind of ammo, all sorts of things, made the dead guy sound like a saint (his drug use was not allowed in court and the picture of the dead guy was when he was normal, working and drug free). He just recently got released, but was in prison I believe for over 4 years.

Retired teacher accused of murder insists he shot hiker in self-defense

If you have ever had Jury Duty, you should heed this advice, as when you see what happens in court, it isn't anything like on TV. Truth be damned, intent of the law be damned, they treat it like a board game and the means to advance a political career.

I should also add, the officers on scene said that they had never seen a better self defense shooting. Guess what? They weren't allowed to testify. The retired teacher, even tried to give first aid to the guy he shot! Didn't care, they played some of the trial on the news and I remember how the prosecution was looking for anything. Y U CARRY U R LUK 4 FIGHT!!! The prosecutor was a flaming anti-gun guy, and manipulated the evidence allowed through trickery to filter data to which the jury tried him as such. When jurors heard the rest of the evidence post trial, they were very upset and said they put an innocent man to jail.

So, when I do carry, it is a factory gun, with factory ammo, FMJ and I never carry reloads. During the class they showed an example of someone who had used reloads and it was used against them in Court.

The Terrifying and True Harold Fish Story

Sorry here is a better story of what happened.

That was an interesting read. I did not see any mention in the article about modifying the gun. Just that he was, "a crazy gun owner.". Also, it seems it was an issue of self defense vs murder. There was also blame placed on the judge and prosecutor as anti gun and "rigging" the trial. No preparation in self defense can overcome immoral players in the legal system.

Also, when did this happen? There are probably more cases of people wrongly convicted that were completely innocent than this type of scenario. If this is the one case that all this fear of modifying a weapon comes from I think it is completely baseless.

I say modify away, fear no consequence for doing the right thing in a shooting, in this case tipping the odds in your favor, have a plan, and be mentally prepared to win.
 

tacticalpanda

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I carry a modified shield and a modified M&P9 both the apex trigger kits. No safeties. Never worried about blowing off my butt cheek. There is a post out there on a blog or forum about a guy who did do that with a glock but that was a faulty leather holster problem.

Honestly being in MA the triggers here suck. They are probably worse than most other states as we have stupid pistol rules/testing to be approved. So I modified both and never really gave a thought to what happens if. In my firearms class they basically told us if you ever used your gun in a self defense situation your life is pretty much ruined, but for me it is more about that my loved ones are alive and myself. I want to know I can be as accurate as possible in that situation but like most people have mentioned, if you are in that situation everything is moving at 300 MPH and you probably won't notice but still I want any advantage I can get.
 

Graham

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i love kraigs answers, hes so down to earth
Kraig is old school, and no fool. I met him at the Sniper's Hide Cup last year and my only regret about the event is not being able to spend more time to get to know him better.
 

herro_prease

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Keep in mind that in a wrongful death suit an attorney will attempt to use any modifications to make you appear more bloodthirsty.

Can you cite instances of when and where this has been used to successfully prosecute?

To the OP, if I was going to modify that setup, I'd start by taking it to my safe, and exchanging it for a different one that a) didn't _need_ modifications and b) didn't have a safety. Part B is personal preference, part A is common sense.
 

K-tech

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My CCW carry guns I do not do a damn thing to them, I even shoot FMJ. For previous comments, in court they are going to make even your clothes an issue, imagine trigger, rounds, sights, all of it.

FMJ's really? What happens when you legally use your CCW to defend yourself and it penetrates through your intended target and hits an innocent bystander? Sounds like a liability issue to me.
 

1911fan

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Was thinking the same thing. No doubt if I'm pulling the trigger the main thing on my mind will be survival, not backstops. I want something that will expand on impact and not go careening off into bystanders. Not to mention FMJs are less effective at stopping people.


1911fan
 

Hairball

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    All of my CCW firearms have some form of mods. Replacing my 1911 with a G20 with a number of mods. I don't plan on a questionable shoot so I am not worried about mods. I make mods to improve accuracy so I decrease the chance of missing the target. Coincidently, if the round passes through the target and hits another, that charge is added to the aggressor not the one defending themselves. Again, it all comes down to a justified shoot. In the event of an actual shoot, keep your comments to yourself and call an attorney who specializes in firearms law. Stats show that people only hit their intended target 20% of the time in actual engagements so either way the odds are stacked against you.