Guys i need advise a setting up a rifle to shoot coyotes out to two hundred yards. I am so cofused Thermal or night vision? scope or hand held? help please
Night Vision Need help on a set up
- Thread starter Mcoletta66
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Re: Need help on a set up
The general rule is thermal for detection, NV for identification. However, if you don't have an identification requirement (i.e. there's no possibility of anything but your intended target) a thermal scope or thermal clip-on would be fantastic. More realistically, a handheld thermal with either weapons-mounted or head-mounted with a weapons-mounted IR laser for use with night vision.
The general rule is thermal for detection, NV for identification. However, if you don't have an identification requirement (i.e. there's no possibility of anything but your intended target) a thermal scope or thermal clip-on would be fantastic. More realistically, a handheld thermal with either weapons-mounted or head-mounted with a weapons-mounted IR laser for use with night vision.
Re: Need help on a set up
Johnny laid it out very well.
Optimally some have both. One for scanning, one for the serious business. Final decisions come down to what you want to really ID and shoot at along with budget.
Give us a IM, email or call. Be glad to assist. Thank you.
Vic
Johnny laid it out very well.
Optimally some have both. One for scanning, one for the serious business. Final decisions come down to what you want to really ID and shoot at along with budget.
Give us a IM, email or call. Be glad to assist. Thank you.
Vic
Re: Need help on a set up
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mcoletta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys i need advise a setting up a rifle to shoot coyotes out to two hundred yards. I am so cofused Thermal or night vision? scope or hand held? help please </div></div>
Mcoletta,
There's actually three forms of visual analysis:
1) detection (e.g. there's a warm body out there)
2) recognition (e.g. that warm body is a human)
3) identification (e.g. that human is a male and not a female)
Sensors with increasing ability to resolve details are needed as one progresses from #1 to #3. Safe navigation requires sensors that present the highest amount of detail.
Thermal imaging is stronger at detecting contrasts between the warm bodies of or living creatures, particularly if the warmest entity in their surrounding environment is 18 degrees or more cooler than their body temperatures.
However, with thermal imaging: beyond 25 yards, at 1X, people and animals will appear more as silhouettes or "hot spots" with outlines that look like a human or animal. This is where i^2 night vision begins showing its forte, which is to present more of the details inside the outline / silhouette, such as the texture of the clothing (if human) or fur / hair / hide (if animal).
Also, thermal performs better when there is stronger temperature contrast between objects being viewed, with 18 degrees F difference being optimal. The trunks, branches, stems, and leaves of trees and plants (i.e. bushes, grasses, etc.) tend to be closer in temperature making forests and jungle environments more challenging for users of thermal scopes to distinguish specific plants from the others around them. Add wind and rain, or heavy fog, and the environment of foliage will appear completely washed out with very little to no distinguishing contrasts. Because of the lack of detail, navigation with thermal scopes, in environments with thick foliage is hazardous, and practically impossible when wind and rain are added to the mix. Here, again, is where i^2 night vision is able to present more identifying detail and better utility.
Where people or animals are not moving and are heavily camoflaged with patterns that match the complexity of their environment, especially ones with heavy foliage, detection [of the people or animals] with i^2 night vision can be very difficult. Scanning the environment with infrared illumination to detect the glint (i.e. reflection) from eyes or other "shiny" objects on the target is one technique used to overcome this challenge, when using i^2 night vision. However, this scenario is where thermal imaging shows its greatest strength ... where even the best visual camoflage cannot hide from the thermal sensor (see photo inset down below).
Without getting into extremely advanced "fusion" solutions such as the ADUNS, SENVG, etc.: the best overall, do-it-all package for hunting (and even person defense) at night, is to have head-mounted night vision monocular with thermal overlay on one's weak eye -- for general navigation and scanning (for spotting targets or threats); a clip-on thermal scope on one's high-powered long rifle and in front of one's day scope, and which can be quickly replaced with a clip-on i^2 night vision scope as weather conditions (i.e. heavy fog, wind, rain)dictate -- for longer range shooting from stationary positions; and an IR laser aimer and illuminator on a back-up automatic carbine and / or pistol -- for close range shooting in dynamic scenarios where you are highly mobile.
As Vic points out, budget may be a constraining factor. If just getting started, I recommend that you start with a head mounted, night vision monocular (e.g. PVS-14) and IR aimer + illuminator on an automatic carbine. You can then add the thermal overlay to your PVS-14 as a second phase investment. If you already own a precision, long-range rifle with dayscope, a third phase part "a" investment could be a clip-on night vision scope (i.e. BNS, UNS, MUNS, CNVD-L, etc.), to be followed with a clip-on thermal imaging scope (i.e. ATWS, CNVD-T, etc.) as your third phase part "b" investment.
A minimum, modular, incremental investment profile could look something like this:
Phase 1: $4,500
Phase 2: $6,500
Phase 3a: $8,000 - $10,500
Phase 3b: $10,500 - $25,000
If pictures say more than words, here is a side-by-side comparison of daytime (early morning) views that I had taken about a week ago from a tree stand overlooking a heavily forested parcel. On the left is a color photo taken with portable digital camera. On the right is a B&W photo captured from a FLIR T60 ATWS. In both photos (of the same area), there are five, whitetail deer concealed behind heavy brush. Two does laying down on the ground to the left of the tall tree (at ~50 yards away from the view point), and a mother doe to the right of the tall tree with two yearlings (at ~80 yards from the view point).
Hope this helps.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mcoletta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys i need advise a setting up a rifle to shoot coyotes out to two hundred yards. I am so cofused Thermal or night vision? scope or hand held? help please </div></div>
Mcoletta,
There's actually three forms of visual analysis:
1) detection (e.g. there's a warm body out there)
2) recognition (e.g. that warm body is a human)
3) identification (e.g. that human is a male and not a female)
Sensors with increasing ability to resolve details are needed as one progresses from #1 to #3. Safe navigation requires sensors that present the highest amount of detail.
Thermal imaging is stronger at detecting contrasts between the warm bodies of or living creatures, particularly if the warmest entity in their surrounding environment is 18 degrees or more cooler than their body temperatures.
However, with thermal imaging: beyond 25 yards, at 1X, people and animals will appear more as silhouettes or "hot spots" with outlines that look like a human or animal. This is where i^2 night vision begins showing its forte, which is to present more of the details inside the outline / silhouette, such as the texture of the clothing (if human) or fur / hair / hide (if animal).
Also, thermal performs better when there is stronger temperature contrast between objects being viewed, with 18 degrees F difference being optimal. The trunks, branches, stems, and leaves of trees and plants (i.e. bushes, grasses, etc.) tend to be closer in temperature making forests and jungle environments more challenging for users of thermal scopes to distinguish specific plants from the others around them. Add wind and rain, or heavy fog, and the environment of foliage will appear completely washed out with very little to no distinguishing contrasts. Because of the lack of detail, navigation with thermal scopes, in environments with thick foliage is hazardous, and practically impossible when wind and rain are added to the mix. Here, again, is where i^2 night vision is able to present more identifying detail and better utility.
Where people or animals are not moving and are heavily camoflaged with patterns that match the complexity of their environment, especially ones with heavy foliage, detection [of the people or animals] with i^2 night vision can be very difficult. Scanning the environment with infrared illumination to detect the glint (i.e. reflection) from eyes or other "shiny" objects on the target is one technique used to overcome this challenge, when using i^2 night vision. However, this scenario is where thermal imaging shows its greatest strength ... where even the best visual camoflage cannot hide from the thermal sensor (see photo inset down below).
Without getting into extremely advanced "fusion" solutions such as the ADUNS, SENVG, etc.: the best overall, do-it-all package for hunting (and even person defense) at night, is to have head-mounted night vision monocular with thermal overlay on one's weak eye -- for general navigation and scanning (for spotting targets or threats); a clip-on thermal scope on one's high-powered long rifle and in front of one's day scope, and which can be quickly replaced with a clip-on i^2 night vision scope as weather conditions (i.e. heavy fog, wind, rain)dictate -- for longer range shooting from stationary positions; and an IR laser aimer and illuminator on a back-up automatic carbine and / or pistol -- for close range shooting in dynamic scenarios where you are highly mobile.
As Vic points out, budget may be a constraining factor. If just getting started, I recommend that you start with a head mounted, night vision monocular (e.g. PVS-14) and IR aimer + illuminator on an automatic carbine. You can then add the thermal overlay to your PVS-14 as a second phase investment. If you already own a precision, long-range rifle with dayscope, a third phase part "a" investment could be a clip-on night vision scope (i.e. BNS, UNS, MUNS, CNVD-L, etc.), to be followed with a clip-on thermal imaging scope (i.e. ATWS, CNVD-T, etc.) as your third phase part "b" investment.
A minimum, modular, incremental investment profile could look something like this:
Phase 1: $4,500
Phase 2: $6,500
Phase 3a: $8,000 - $10,500
Phase 3b: $10,500 - $25,000
If pictures say more than words, here is a side-by-side comparison of daytime (early morning) views that I had taken about a week ago from a tree stand overlooking a heavily forested parcel. On the left is a color photo taken with portable digital camera. On the right is a B&W photo captured from a FLIR T60 ATWS. In both photos (of the same area), there are five, whitetail deer concealed behind heavy brush. Two does laying down on the ground to the left of the tall tree (at ~50 yards away from the view point), and a mother doe to the right of the tall tree with two yearlings (at ~80 yards from the view point).
Hope this helps.
IR-V
Re: Need help on a set up
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good stuff from you as always IRV.
Vic </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great example, IRV, thanks for posting. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing image
Ron g </div></div>
Vic, SkyPup, Ron G,
Thanks for appreciating, and for your kind words. In case this may be of interest, here's a pic of the kit the ATWS was mounted to ...
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">T60 rocks. Love mine. </div></div>
Congrats on your new acquisition, TestnDoc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good stuff from you as always IRV.
Vic </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great example, IRV, thanks for posting. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing image
Ron g </div></div>
Vic, SkyPup, Ron G,
Thanks for appreciating, and for your kind words. In case this may be of interest, here's a pic of the kit the ATWS was mounted to ...
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">T60 rocks. Love mine. </div></div>
Congrats on your new acquisition, TestnDoc.
Re: Need help on a set up
Thermal to LOCATE.
NV to POSITIVELY ID. Too many people violate the fourth firearms safety rule often. Had a hunter who shot a calf lying down. Thought it was a pig as the pigs were around it. Anyone who has hunted long knows pigs do NOT hold still long.
Great pics IR-V.
Unless you have a lot of money to use then get a good hand held thermal-put it around your neck. and then get a good helmet set-up and put a good PVS-14 on it. Good hand held IR Illuminator-and get those piggies. Gotta have a good white light also. All kinds of good products on this site to choose from.
Thermal to LOCATE.
NV to POSITIVELY ID. Too many people violate the fourth firearms safety rule often. Had a hunter who shot a calf lying down. Thought it was a pig as the pigs were around it. Anyone who has hunted long knows pigs do NOT hold still long.
Great pics IR-V.
Unless you have a lot of money to use then get a good hand held thermal-put it around your neck. and then get a good helmet set-up and put a good PVS-14 on it. Good hand held IR Illuminator-and get those piggies. Gotta have a good white light also. All kinds of good products on this site to choose from.
Re: Need help on a set up
Wow. Thanks for all of the help. I will contact tomorrow to start the process lol
I have never picked a cheap hobby yet. Lol
Wow. Thanks for all of the help. I will contact tomorrow to start the process lol
I have never picked a cheap hobby yet. Lol
Re: Need help on a set up
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogrider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal to LOCATE.
NV to POSITIVELY ID. Too many people violate the fourth firearms safety rule often. <span style="font-weight: bold">Had a hunter who shot a calf lying down.</span> Thought it was a pig as the pigs were around it. Anyone who has hunted long knows pigs do NOT hold still long.
Great pics IR-V.
Unless you have a lot of money to use then get a good hand held thermal-put it around your neck. and then get a good helmet set-up and put a good PVS-14 on it. Good hand held IR Illuminator-and get those piggies. Gotta have a good white light also. All kinds of good products on this site to choose from. </div></div>
That is most unfortunate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogrider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal to LOCATE.
NV to POSITIVELY ID. Too many people violate the fourth firearms safety rule often. <span style="font-weight: bold">Had a hunter who shot a calf lying down.</span> Thought it was a pig as the pigs were around it. Anyone who has hunted long knows pigs do NOT hold still long.
Great pics IR-V.
Unless you have a lot of money to use then get a good hand held thermal-put it around your neck. and then get a good helmet set-up and put a good PVS-14 on it. Good hand held IR Illuminator-and get those piggies. Gotta have a good white light also. All kinds of good products on this site to choose from. </div></div>
That is most unfortunate.
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