im wondering wheres a good site to see some real footage of operators "snipers" making shots or just marines doing what they do. youtube has some but most of it is fake. thanks guys
- Thread starter rackchaser71
- Start date
Re: real combat footage
thanks, i watched one today on youtube, they were trying to flush two guys out of an old house that wouldnt budge, they just pulled back and blew the fucker up, awesome, i was more into that than any movie ive ever seen lol sry if i offend anyone that has been there and done that, i know its anything but a joke for you but i find it iteresting to watch, i think if they showed people more footage of what you guys actually do over there and how dangerous it is they would appreciate it ALOT more
thanks, i watched one today on youtube, they were trying to flush two guys out of an old house that wouldnt budge, they just pulled back and blew the fucker up, awesome, i was more into that than any movie ive ever seen lol sry if i offend anyone that has been there and done that, i know its anything but a joke for you but i find it iteresting to watch, i think if they showed people more footage of what you guys actually do over there and how dangerous it is they would appreciate it ALOT more
Re: real combat footage
This one is badass. I would watch this before we would go out on missions to get motivated.
http://www.grouchymedia.com/videos/2006/07/operation-phantom-fury.html
This one is badass. I would watch this before we would go out on missions to get motivated.
http://www.grouchymedia.com/videos/2006/07/operation-phantom-fury.html
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own. </div></div>
Nock, Ouch.... leave the guy with some testicles will you (LOL)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own. </div></div>
Nock, Ouch.... leave the guy with some testicles will you (LOL)
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im wondering wheres a good site to see some real footage of operators "snipers" making shots or just marines doing what they do. youtube has some but most of it is fake. thanks guys </div></div>
I can post a photo of a dead rabbit if you like.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im wondering wheres a good site to see some real footage of operators "snipers" making shots or just marines doing what they do. youtube has some but most of it is fake. thanks guys </div></div>
I can post a photo of a dead rabbit if you like.
Re: real combat footage
One should not wish to see the footage of live combat until one has experienced trying to save a Soldier with a sucking chest wound as his life's blood pooled on the concrete. War sucks but is a requirement of Freedom. Even the edges of a combat zone are no place to be.
I'm with nock on this one. If I had dared to make video I would have sickened myself. The pictures were bad enough. Seeing some of the things I have seen has certainly enlightened me on life and death in a combat zone.
One should not wish to see the footage of live combat until one has experienced trying to save a Soldier with a sucking chest wound as his life's blood pooled on the concrete. War sucks but is a requirement of Freedom. Even the edges of a combat zone are no place to be.
I'm with nock on this one. If I had dared to make video I would have sickened myself. The pictures were bad enough. Seeing some of the things I have seen has certainly enlightened me on life and death in a combat zone.
Re: real combat footage
this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY
this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY
Re: real combat footage
jong, my buddys brother in law had that one burned on a cd from his squad when he came back in jan 05, he was one of the marine mp's that escorted the convoys in and out of fallujah and his squad cd had a couple ied's going off while they were driving and a bunch of eod stuff they had to secure the area on
jong, my buddys brother in law had that one burned on a cd from his squad when he came back in jan 05, he was one of the marine mp's that escorted the convoys in and out of fallujah and his squad cd had a couple ied's going off while they were driving and a bunch of eod stuff they had to secure the area on
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY</div></div> Holy fawk is that funny.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY</div></div> Holy fawk is that funny.
Re: real combat footage
I can't imagine combat footage traumatizing me more than Tourette's dude video!
Anyway, I've never been interested in combat footage so I can't help you there, but it does remind me of my stepfather. The guy was on the riverboats in Vietnam and had 8mm films he took of firefights they were in. Crazy footage I wouldn't mind having now. What was a trip is that in the films you could see that he was the one being shot at as well -- explosions going off in the water right next to the boat etc. Don't think I would be pulling out the movie camera personally when being shot at, but this guy was pretty bad arse. Still, seems pretty nuts.
I can't imagine combat footage traumatizing me more than Tourette's dude video!
Anyway, I've never been interested in combat footage so I can't help you there, but it does remind me of my stepfather. The guy was on the riverboats in Vietnam and had 8mm films he took of firefights they were in. Crazy footage I wouldn't mind having now. What was a trip is that in the films you could see that he was the one being shot at as well -- explosions going off in the water right next to the boat etc. Don't think I would be pulling out the movie camera personally when being shot at, but this guy was pretty bad arse. Still, seems pretty nuts.
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own.</div></div>
Exactly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own.</div></div>
Exactly.
Re: real combat footage
reminds me of when I was on recruiting duty:
Them: Hey thanks for what you do, I always wanted to be in the army, kick some ass over there!
Me: hey, I'm a recruiter actually, want to look into joining?
them: uh well.. I was going to but my family situation now and all..uhh.. yeah I dont think its for me
me: why not?
them: well, I have a little kid and all so what if I died?
Me: excellent, they would have full health insurance and your wife would as well, additionally, you would have 400K dollars in lif insurance as well as 100K immediate gratuity paid within 72 hours of death be it combat related or not, your wife would have a support network, the option of shopping tax free at the commissary and many other great benefits...how does that compare to what you have now?
them: it uh... well, it doesnt but I just dont think...uhhh, I just dont think its right for me.
me: why not? what makes it right for anyone?
them: I dont know.. I just dont want to.
Me: so youre a chickenhawk right wing pussy who loves sending the poor folk and those with fucking balls to do what you practically jack off to on the net but have no cojones to do it yourself?
them: fuck you man you dont know me.
Me: you aint wearing a uniform, you dont want to, and you want to tell me to go kickass and kill towelheads, so fuck you.
Its frankly no wonder I did poorly on recruiting.
reminds me of when I was on recruiting duty:
Them: Hey thanks for what you do, I always wanted to be in the army, kick some ass over there!
Me: hey, I'm a recruiter actually, want to look into joining?
them: uh well.. I was going to but my family situation now and all..uhh.. yeah I dont think its for me
me: why not?
them: well, I have a little kid and all so what if I died?
Me: excellent, they would have full health insurance and your wife would as well, additionally, you would have 400K dollars in lif insurance as well as 100K immediate gratuity paid within 72 hours of death be it combat related or not, your wife would have a support network, the option of shopping tax free at the commissary and many other great benefits...how does that compare to what you have now?
them: it uh... well, it doesnt but I just dont think...uhhh, I just dont think its right for me.
me: why not? what makes it right for anyone?
them: I dont know.. I just dont want to.
Me: so youre a chickenhawk right wing pussy who loves sending the poor folk and those with fucking balls to do what you practically jack off to on the net but have no cojones to do it yourself?
them: fuck you man you dont know me.
Me: you aint wearing a uniform, you dont want to, and you want to tell me to go kickass and kill towelheads, so fuck you.
Its frankly no wonder I did poorly on recruiting.
Re: real combat footage
oh kiss my ass, ill watch what i want, SORRY, you do your thing and ill do mine, call me a puss or whatever you want, weather i go fight or stay here and fish and hunt the rest of my life this country will stay the same....FUBR
oh kiss my ass, ill watch what i want, SORRY, you do your thing and ill do mine, call me a puss or whatever you want, weather i go fight or stay here and fish and hunt the rest of my life this country will stay the same....FUBR
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwild</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY</div></div> Holy fawk is that funny. </div></div>hey i just had surgery on a hernia i dont need to be watching things like that, please come tuck my guts back in please lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwild</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY</div></div> Holy fawk is that funny. </div></div>hey i just had surgery on a hernia i dont need to be watching things like that, please come tuck my guts back in please lol
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Me: so youre a chickenhawk right wing pussy who loves sending the poor folk and those with fucking balls to do what you practically jack off to on the net but have no cojones to do it yourself?</div></div>
Thanks for the laugh cav. The visual of Rackchaser beating one off to combat footage made my day.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Me: so youre a chickenhawk right wing pussy who loves sending the poor folk and those with fucking balls to do what you practically jack off to on the net but have no cojones to do it yourself?</div></div>
Thanks for the laugh cav. The visual of Rackchaser beating one off to combat footage made my day.
Re: real combat footage
I was just speaking in generalities...no judgement on rackchaser made.
I speak in a lot of generalities these days, the guilty will accuse themselves.
I was just speaking in generalities...no judgement on rackchaser made.
I speak in a lot of generalities these days, the guilty will accuse themselves.
Re: real combat footage
only a jackass comes onto a forum full of boots on the ground or soon to be and asks for videos.
that event in the video is not there to amuse you, go hunt or fish
only a jackass comes onto a forum full of boots on the ground or soon to be and asks for videos.
that event in the video is not there to amuse you, go hunt or fish
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh kiss my ass, ill watch what i want, SORRY, you do your thing and ill do mine, call me a puss or whatever you want, weather i go fight or stay here and fish and hunt the rest of my life this country will stay the same....FUBR </div></div>
Did you really expect an outcome different than this from the Hide?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh kiss my ass, ill watch what i want, SORRY, you do your thing and ill do mine, call me a puss or whatever you want, weather i go fight or stay here and fish and hunt the rest of my life this country will stay the same....FUBR </div></div>
Did you really expect an outcome different than this from the Hide?
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ace31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes this your country anyway? Just the fact that you pay taxes doesnt mean you contribute to the country. </div></div>
Uh...so this country only "belongs" to those who have worn a uniform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ace31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes this your country anyway? Just the fact that you pay taxes doesnt mean you contribute to the country. </div></div>
Uh...so this country only "belongs" to those who have worn a uniform?
Re: real combat footage
'bout to get into an interesting sociological discussion I suspect.
counterfire: taxpayers allow the military to conduct operations via financial support...
'bout to get into an interesting sociological discussion I suspect.
counterfire: taxpayers allow the military to conduct operations via financial support...
Re: real combat footage
You're a huckleberry? Really...?
Am I the only one that's thinking, "Who the fuck is this douche-bag REMF poser?"
I mean, who even asks a question like that?
cryhavoc
You're a huckleberry? Really...?
Am I the only one that's thinking, "Who the fuck is this douche-bag REMF poser?"
I mean, who even asks a question like that?
cryhavoc
Re: real combat footage
Some of you guys need to start smoking some wacky tobacky and chill the fuck out!!
Some of you guys need to start smoking some wacky tobacky and chill the fuck out!!
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pacomdiver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jong, my buddys brother in law had that one burned on a cd from his squad when he came back in jan 05, he was one of the marine mp's that escorted the convoys in and out of fallujah and his squad cd had a couple ied's going off while they were driving and a bunch of eod stuff they had to secure the area on </div></div>
That is cool. I didn't get to that area until Mar 05 so I missed all the fun. I didn't know it but I had a chance to be there but chose poorly I guess. I got a call from my Marine Reserve unit telling me that they needed Corpsman immediately and wanted to know if I wanted to deploy. I thought about it for about an hour and called back and said I wanted to go. Well after about 2 weeks had gone by I called my unit and asked what was up. Was told they had no idea. My unit gets a call a little bit later and says they got another call telling them that they had lost my info and was wondering if I still wanted to deploy. Well it was looking like my unit was going to deploy and was told that I could go now or wait a few months and go with the unit. I chose to go with the unit and unfortunately missed that fight in Fallujah!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pacomdiver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jong, my buddys brother in law had that one burned on a cd from his squad when he came back in jan 05, he was one of the marine mp's that escorted the convoys in and out of fallujah and his squad cd had a couple ied's going off while they were driving and a bunch of eod stuff they had to secure the area on </div></div>
That is cool. I didn't get to that area until Mar 05 so I missed all the fun. I didn't know it but I had a chance to be there but chose poorly I guess. I got a call from my Marine Reserve unit telling me that they needed Corpsman immediately and wanted to know if I wanted to deploy. I thought about it for about an hour and called back and said I wanted to go. Well after about 2 weeks had gone by I called my unit and asked what was up. Was told they had no idea. My unit gets a call a little bit later and says they got another call telling them that they had lost my info and was wondering if I still wanted to deploy. Well it was looking like my unit was going to deploy and was told that I could go now or wait a few months and go with the unit. I chose to go with the unit and unfortunately missed that fight in Fallujah!!
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ace31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont think combat should be portrayed as glorious or amusing. </div></div>
Depends on who the target is
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ace31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont think combat should be portrayed as glorious or amusing. </div></div>
Depends on who the target is
John
Re: real combat footage
actually a poser is someone trying t be something they are not, and trust me im anything but that. the snipers hide is a website for the serious tactical marksman. not for the fake trying to be soldiers, i came to this site to lern about guns and lr shooting and if i want to watch videos of real life fighting while im here i will,ive learned alot so far and i appolgize to SOME if ive offended. one more thing ive been wondering, how come you come home and are so pissed off about it? all i hear is "you dont know shit you wernt there" or "you pussy why dont you go fight" wtf are you serious dont be pissed at us, your the one that chose to go over there, depending on what you did i am very thankful but dont be a dick about it. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cryhavoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You're a huckleberry? Really...?
Am I the only one that's thinking, "Who the fuck is this douche-bag REMF poser?"
I mean, who even asks a question like that?
cryhavoc </div></div>
actually a poser is someone trying t be something they are not, and trust me im anything but that. the snipers hide is a website for the serious tactical marksman. not for the fake trying to be soldiers, i came to this site to lern about guns and lr shooting and if i want to watch videos of real life fighting while im here i will,ive learned alot so far and i appolgize to SOME if ive offended. one more thing ive been wondering, how come you come home and are so pissed off about it? all i hear is "you dont know shit you wernt there" or "you pussy why dont you go fight" wtf are you serious dont be pissed at us, your the one that chose to go over there, depending on what you did i am very thankful but dont be a dick about it. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cryhavoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You're a huckleberry? Really...?
Am I the only one that's thinking, "Who the fuck is this douche-bag REMF poser?"
I mean, who even asks a question like that?
cryhavoc </div></div>
Re: real combat footage
Rackchaser- no harm no foul. Interesting and thought provoking questions you posed at the end of your post. I look forward to addressing them from my point of view and what I understand from other guys I have served with regarding the "us vs them" mentality; the reasons behind it and what is done on both sides of the coin to both neuter it as well as perpetuate it.
Rackchaser- no harm no foul. Interesting and thought provoking questions you posed at the end of your post. I look forward to addressing them from my point of view and what I understand from other guys I have served with regarding the "us vs them" mentality; the reasons behind it and what is done on both sides of the coin to both neuter it as well as perpetuate it.
Re: real combat footage
oh yeah we have a guy at hunt camp that flies one and i think this is what he was talking about, thanks<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fredo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://www.apacheclips.com/
Uncompromising military content
</div></div>
oh yeah we have a guy at hunt camp that flies one and i think this is what he was talking about, thanks<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fredo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://www.apacheclips.com/
Uncompromising military content
Re: real combat footage
rackchaser71 -
"all i hear is "you dont know shit you wernt there" or "you pussy why dont you go fight" "
- never said, or inferred that...
"i appolgize to SOME if ive offended"
- accepted
"depending on what you did i am very thankful"
- you are welcome, but no thanks is needed; didn't do it for you...
"how come you come home and are so pissed off about it?"
- I am not 'pissed off', I just think your whole question is out of line. You remind me of a teenager, wet with interest, and perhaps earnest interest, but never the less, adolescent. Some things you just don't ask for...
If you want training, or want to gain the skill-sets, you won't do it by watching a damn video of "actual snipers in action"...c'mon, really? Is that footage sooo damn important in making you a better 'shooter'?
Take the civvie courses available for the venue you seek, or better yet, get the training the 'old-fashioned way'...do I have to spell that out?
Look, you don't know me, and I don't know you...you are probably a good guy that just asked a sincere question in the most inappropriate, and foolish way you could, IMHO.
That said, I hope you get the training you need to make you a better shooter....
cryhavoc
rackchaser71 -
"all i hear is "you dont know shit you wernt there" or "you pussy why dont you go fight" "
- never said, or inferred that...
"i appolgize to SOME if ive offended"
- accepted
"depending on what you did i am very thankful"
- you are welcome, but no thanks is needed; didn't do it for you...
"how come you come home and are so pissed off about it?"
- I am not 'pissed off', I just think your whole question is out of line. You remind me of a teenager, wet with interest, and perhaps earnest interest, but never the less, adolescent. Some things you just don't ask for...
If you want training, or want to gain the skill-sets, you won't do it by watching a damn video of "actual snipers in action"...c'mon, really? Is that footage sooo damn important in making you a better 'shooter'?
Take the civvie courses available for the venue you seek, or better yet, get the training the 'old-fashioned way'...do I have to spell that out?
Look, you don't know me, and I don't know you...you are probably a good guy that just asked a sincere question in the most inappropriate, and foolish way you could, IMHO.
That said, I hope you get the training you need to make you a better shooter....
cryhavoc
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY </div></div>
I had to stop the video. I'm crying right now I'm laughing so hard. I made it to the paper towels scene at 1:03 and I'm trying to regain my composure. I started laughing about 5 minutes ago. That made the whole thread worth it right there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this will give you a great idea of what it was like to work for my CSM on his PSD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY </div></div>
I had to stop the video. I'm crying right now I'm laughing so hard. I made it to the paper towels scene at 1:03 and I'm trying to regain my composure. I started laughing about 5 minutes ago. That made the whole thread worth it right there.
Re: real combat footage
In reply to the argument of "Us vs them" a la mil vs civ... I thought long and hard about a reply but found that Mr. Kipling, as he often does, said it best:
Zion
----
The Doorkeepers of Zion,
They do not always stand
In helmet and whole armour,
With halberds in their hand;
But, being sure of Zion,
And all her mysteries,
They rest awhile in Zion,
Sit down and smile in Zion;
Ay, even jest in Zion;
In Zion, at their ease.
The Gatekeepers of Baal,
They dare not sit or lean,
But fume and fret and posture
And foam and curse between;
For being bound to Baal,
Whose sacrifice is vain,
Their rest is scant with Baal,
They glare and pant for Baal,
They mouth and rant for Baal,
For Baal in their pain!
But we will go to Zion,
By choice and not through dread,
With these our present comrades
And those our present dead;
And, being free of Zion
In both her fellowships,
Sit down and sup in Zion --
Stand up and drink in Zion
Whatever cup in Zion
Is offered to our lips!
-Rudyard Kipling
In reply to the argument of "Us vs them" a la mil vs civ... I thought long and hard about a reply but found that Mr. Kipling, as he often does, said it best:
Zion
----
The Doorkeepers of Zion,
They do not always stand
In helmet and whole armour,
With halberds in their hand;
But, being sure of Zion,
And all her mysteries,
They rest awhile in Zion,
Sit down and smile in Zion;
Ay, even jest in Zion;
In Zion, at their ease.
The Gatekeepers of Baal,
They dare not sit or lean,
But fume and fret and posture
And foam and curse between;
For being bound to Baal,
Whose sacrifice is vain,
Their rest is scant with Baal,
They glare and pant for Baal,
They mouth and rant for Baal,
For Baal in their pain!
But we will go to Zion,
By choice and not through dread,
With these our present comrades
And those our present dead;
And, being free of Zion
In both her fellowships,
Sit down and sup in Zion --
Stand up and drink in Zion
Whatever cup in Zion
Is offered to our lips!
-Rudyard Kipling
Re: real combat footage
Another perfect example of what annoys the ever living shit out of me: perfectly capable young men and women who "recognize" the "need" for the war but yet curiously find every single excuse not to serve.
Some might find the video maker a little leftist for their tastes but look past that and at the real issue he is trying to show in the video.
"Generation Chickenhawk"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs
Another perfect example of what annoys the ever living shit out of me: perfectly capable young men and women who "recognize" the "need" for the war but yet curiously find every single excuse not to serve.
Some might find the video maker a little leftist for their tastes but look past that and at the real issue he is trying to show in the video.
"Generation Chickenhawk"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another perfect example of what annoys the ever living shit out of me: perfectly capable young men and women who "recognize" the "need" for the war but yet curiously find every single excuse not to serve.</div></div>
They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another perfect example of what annoys the ever living shit out of me: perfectly capable young men and women who "recognize" the "need" for the war but yet curiously find every single excuse not to serve.</div></div>
They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards".
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards". </div></div>
So, everybody that chose not to serve in the military is a coward
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards". </div></div>
So, everybody that chose not to serve in the military is a coward
G
Guest
Guest
Re: real combat footage
Some of the threads on here lately, make me Sick.
Any person that "Enjoys" watching real combat footage, needs time on the couch. There is no glory in war, thats reserved for those that start them, but never participate, an actors.
I don't know where the new crop of folks on here are from, but "Reality" is not the same as "Perception".
The question I have is what do you gain by watching folks get killed, mamed or mentality scared for life?
Some of the threads on here lately, make me Sick.
Any person that "Enjoys" watching real combat footage, needs time on the couch. There is no glory in war, thats reserved for those that start them, but never participate, an actors.
I don't know where the new crop of folks on here are from, but "Reality" is not the same as "Perception".
The question I have is what do you gain by watching folks get killed, mamed or mentality scared for life?
Re: real combat footage
ill chime in on this. The way I see it is the same as when i came back from both deployments and people ask "did you kill anyone or get to see anyone die" if it werent for the fear of assualt charges and the NJPs that would follow that i would beat the ever living hell out of some of those people. Coming on here asking i wanna see snipers kill people, what are you 17 fuckin years old? Like the advice given here, and im not gonna sugar coat it, man up dont be a pussy and join one of the branches of service. As to the question of why are we so "you werent there" when we get back. Let me ask you this, how many of your friends have stepped onto IEDs, been shot, and blown up to were they are fucked up for life?????? Thats fuckin why we act like that.
FREEDOM HAS A TASTE THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW sums it up pretty good as to why we act the way we do.
ill chime in on this. The way I see it is the same as when i came back from both deployments and people ask "did you kill anyone or get to see anyone die" if it werent for the fear of assualt charges and the NJPs that would follow that i would beat the ever living hell out of some of those people. Coming on here asking i wanna see snipers kill people, what are you 17 fuckin years old? Like the advice given here, and im not gonna sugar coat it, man up dont be a pussy and join one of the branches of service. As to the question of why are we so "you werent there" when we get back. Let me ask you this, how many of your friends have stepped onto IEDs, been shot, and blown up to were they are fucked up for life?????? Thats fuckin why we act like that.
FREEDOM HAS A TASTE THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW sums it up pretty good as to why we act the way we do.
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards". </div></div>
So, everybody that chose not to serve in the military is a coward
</div></div>
Certainly not, but in wartime if someone is able bodied (or not) they should make every effort to join the military if they are "pro"-War. I have no problem with people who don't join the military so long as they admit they don't support the war. Hell, I don't support the war. I think it's a bunch of crap for no reason. But I have an issue with people who are of able body, fit the age criteria (army goes to 42 by the way
), and don't go because "they have a kid" or "The pay ain't great". Yeah, cus no one in the military has a family and they love pinching pennies.
Make sense? Bottom line: Heinlein had the right idea in "For us the Living: A comedy of customs" - you support the war, you fight the war. period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They have a name for people like this. They are called "cowards". </div></div>
So, everybody that chose not to serve in the military is a coward
Certainly not, but in wartime if someone is able bodied (or not) they should make every effort to join the military if they are "pro"-War. I have no problem with people who don't join the military so long as they admit they don't support the war. Hell, I don't support the war. I think it's a bunch of crap for no reason. But I have an issue with people who are of able body, fit the age criteria (army goes to 42 by the way
Make sense? Bottom line: Heinlein had the right idea in "For us the Living: A comedy of customs" - you support the war, you fight the war. period.
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you support the war, you fight the war. period </div></div>
I've been following this thread and can't help feeling there is merit in some of this sentiment while there is also oversimplification. Like the often lobbed charge of hypocrisy thrown by people who, if logic follows, apparently must support the aberrent or repulsive acts committed by the awful hypocrite, I don't think it's entirely fair to lump all the able-bodied-yet-not-serving supporters of the current wars as
beneath contempt.
The stand offish participation in this nation's wars since time immemorial has as much to do with the absence of recurrent invasions, such as those visited upon the Caucasus and Europe for millenia, as much as parents seeking to protect junior for his future in real estate. Even in WWII, when three nations had declared war on us, there was a draft to fill the need for man (and woman) power. Not 5 years after the end of hostilities, we found ourselves in a wicked war, fraught with global consequences, that found most Americans barely aware of it beyond the impact on a family member, or the absence of Ted Williams from the Red Sox line up.
Slave owners bought their way out of serving in "the cause" they had no qualms over sending the southern (and non slave owning) white peasantry to fight, much as northern aristocrats did the same in our civil war.
Foreign incursions went on for generations while American civilians toiled in their own ambivalence. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, all witnessed a military that was comprised of a tiny representation of the population of the nation. Many of whom could also have served.
While the current wars have been rife with simplistic, jingoistic sloganeering by musicians (especially several country "artists"), politicians, "personalities", and people who have it very good indeed, while other young men and women have made huge sacrifices, it is understanadable that there is resentment among those who have witnessed the cost disproportionately paid by so few.
I didn't serve when I was a young man. On the number line of manliness where a fire breather is a 10 and a hairdresser a .001 I feel I fall in the meaty part of the curve well below those who I would humbly deferr to as my superiors.
That said, I don't feel compelled to support those who claim we should only deploy our forces when we have been attacked and only where we have been attacked.
It does not follow that I should thwart the politicians who sent our forces over seas because I did not serve.
Respectfully.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you support the war, you fight the war. period </div></div>
I've been following this thread and can't help feeling there is merit in some of this sentiment while there is also oversimplification. Like the often lobbed charge of hypocrisy thrown by people who, if logic follows, apparently must support the aberrent or repulsive acts committed by the awful hypocrite, I don't think it's entirely fair to lump all the able-bodied-yet-not-serving supporters of the current wars as
beneath contempt.
The stand offish participation in this nation's wars since time immemorial has as much to do with the absence of recurrent invasions, such as those visited upon the Caucasus and Europe for millenia, as much as parents seeking to protect junior for his future in real estate. Even in WWII, when three nations had declared war on us, there was a draft to fill the need for man (and woman) power. Not 5 years after the end of hostilities, we found ourselves in a wicked war, fraught with global consequences, that found most Americans barely aware of it beyond the impact on a family member, or the absence of Ted Williams from the Red Sox line up.
Slave owners bought their way out of serving in "the cause" they had no qualms over sending the southern (and non slave owning) white peasantry to fight, much as northern aristocrats did the same in our civil war.
Foreign incursions went on for generations while American civilians toiled in their own ambivalence. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, all witnessed a military that was comprised of a tiny representation of the population of the nation. Many of whom could also have served.
While the current wars have been rife with simplistic, jingoistic sloganeering by musicians (especially several country "artists"), politicians, "personalities", and people who have it very good indeed, while other young men and women have made huge sacrifices, it is understanadable that there is resentment among those who have witnessed the cost disproportionately paid by so few.
I didn't serve when I was a young man. On the number line of manliness where a fire breather is a 10 and a hairdresser a .001 I feel I fall in the meaty part of the curve well below those who I would humbly deferr to as my superiors.
That said, I don't feel compelled to support those who claim we should only deploy our forces when we have been attacked and only where we have been attacked.
It does not follow that I should thwart the politicians who sent our forces over seas because I did not serve.
Respectfully.
Re: real combat footage
Are you advising him to get an MOS that issues a camera?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own. </div></div>
Are you advising him to get an MOS that issues a camera?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please be a man, join the military and make your own. </div></div>
Re: real combat footage
I don't know too many guys that want to re-live combat. We deploy because it's our job and because we are the ones who have agreed to step forward. I can tell you that if one of my team had started taking pics or video while we were conducting operations and I'd have eaten him alive. That shit is irresponsible and gets people killed.
OP, remember the same video camera that captures some insurgent's inglorious end can just as quickly show your comrade bleeding out despite everything you can do. And that image doesn't exist on a DVD or a thumb drive anymore. That motherfucker will stick in your memory for as long as you live. Grow the fuck up. If you want to see combat, enlist. Otherwise, stop looking for this stuff as entertainment.
I don't know too many guys that want to re-live combat. We deploy because it's our job and because we are the ones who have agreed to step forward. I can tell you that if one of my team had started taking pics or video while we were conducting operations and I'd have eaten him alive. That shit is irresponsible and gets people killed.
OP, remember the same video camera that captures some insurgent's inglorious end can just as quickly show your comrade bleeding out despite everything you can do. And that image doesn't exist on a DVD or a thumb drive anymore. That motherfucker will stick in your memory for as long as you live. Grow the fuck up. If you want to see combat, enlist. Otherwise, stop looking for this stuff as entertainment.
Re: real combat footage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you support the war, you fight the war. period </div></div>
I've been following this thread and can't help feeling there is merit in some of this sentiment while there is also oversimplification. Like the often lobbed charge of hypocrisy thrown by people who, if logic follows, apparently must support the aberrent or repulsive acts committed by the awful hypocrite, I don't think it's entirely fair to lump all the able-bodied-yet-not-serving supporters of the current wars as
beneath contempt.
The stand offish participation in this nation's wars since time immemorial has as much to do with the absence of recurrent invasions, such as those visited upon the Caucasus and Europe for millenia, as much as parents seeking to protect junior for his future in real estate. Even in WWII, when three nations had declared war on us, there was a draft to fill the need for man (and woman) power. Not 5 years after the end of hostilities, we found ourselves in a wicked war, fraught with global consequences, that found most Americans barely aware of it beyond the impact on a family member, or the absence of Ted Williams from the Red Sox line up.
Slave owners bought their way out of serving in "the cause" they had no qualms over sending the southern (and non slave owning) white peasantry to fight, much as northern aristocrats did the same in our civil war.
Foreign incursions went on for generations while American civilians toiled in their own ambivalence. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, all witnessed a military that was comprised of a tiny representation of the population of the nation. Many of whom could also have served.
While the current wars have been rife with simplistic, jingoistic sloganeering by musicians (especially several country "artists"), politicians, "personalities", and people who have it very good indeed, while other young men and women have made huge sacrifices, it is understanadable that there is resentment among those who have witnessed the cost disproportionately paid by so few.
I didn't serve when I was a young man. On the number line of manliness where a fire breather is a 10 and a hairdresser a .001 I feel I fall in the meaty part of the curve well below those who I would humbly deferr to as my superiors.
That said, I don't feel compelled to support those who claim we should only deploy our forces when we have been attacked and only where we have been attacked.
It does not follow that I should thwart the politicians who sent our forces over seas because I did not serve.
Respectfully.
</div></div>
You're right, it is an oversimplification and history is wrought with the opposite of the idea behind it.
While I wasn't around during WW2, I was always under the impression that while there was a draft- the majority went quite willingly and enlisted in much larger numbers in support of the war. Stars and soon to be Stars did their part for the most part. It was a much different war, a much different Society and collective mindset. While the consequences of an Allied loss were great, I wonder if perhaps the consequences of a loss today (if it's not contrived and blown out of proportion) would be of even greater consequence. The challenge faced by society in today's war is I feel a multi-pronged issue. The obfuscation of true threats and intelligence, successful operations, etc by the Government do not help. I found myself, a young PFC on the ground searching for answers about why I was where I was. By the time I did my first tour in 2005 it was blatantly obvious that the reasons we invaded Iraq were at best- bullshit. The reason for the mission went from WMD's/possible Al-Qaeda possession to "freeing" the Iraqis from the very man we supported for so long, to enabling the Iraqi people to have a democratic government which we then balked at when they wanted to do their own thing. By the time I got there, we were hearing from the president "Iraqi's will be taking over operations and control very shortly". I remember looking at the IA and Ministry of Interior Police Commandos (sort of like an Iraqi National SWAT team of "sorts") and just wondering if the president knew something I didn't. I'm sure he knew a lot of things I didn't but I knew from working with those yahoos the only control that would be happening would be in Shi'a hands. A democracy in Iraq dictates this anyway as the majority is Shi'a, if everyone voted on party lines. The mode in which they operated was more about vengeance than truly trying to clean up their country. Most of the guys we worked with were former political prisoners and a lot were just downright miscreants freed after the fall of Saddam.
Afghanistan at the time was a bygone forgotten effort from all I could tell. A friend of mine was in A-stan in 2005 and they had massive areas of operation. It was just ineffective. Where are we now? Scrambling to get that place under control after almost 10 years of presence there. 10 years? There's a reason they call that place the graveyard of empires.
I understand that certain people can't join and go over. That's fine. I also realize there is a pretty big segment of society that is perfectly able to join, support the war so far as to buy into the crap said on Fox news and take it as gospel, truly believe in the "fight them there so we don't fight them here" line, and yet- dont join. This is the group I have a problem with. I also understand there are people who are wishy washy on the fence regarding the war. They just don't pay attention to it, thats fine too. I don't expect them to join. The last group- truly anti-war ( or this war), "leftists" etc. I certainly don't expect them to join.
I just like people to put their money where their mouth is. I take no issue with those in no position to join due to age, true health issues, etc. I have no problem with people who are a little older and never served and support the war. Last thing we need is a grandpa brigade. There are other ways to support the war, if one is not able to fight. I know you (Queequeg) have done a lot at personal expense to show your support for guys overseas, as have a lot of other members here- many who have sent packages to guys overseas that I have given addresses for. That's nothing to sneeze at and certainly you have done more than most Americans to support the effort in the way you can.
Even our "enemy" the jihadists make this distinction. Jihad is more than strapping on an AK and setting IEDs. The mother who sends her son off, is in a jihad of her own in support of X cause. Jihad simply means "struggle". The fat rich man who supplies the money to buy equipment for the mujahideen, is an integral member of the Jihad. He certainly would be a poor fighter due to his age and health etc. But the Young man who is of fighting age? Eventually he has to do his part.
to illustrate my thoughts on the matter,I will quote a synopsis of the Heinlein novel " For us the living: a comedy of customs" re: national mentality regarding war in the society he writes about:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">'For Us, the Living' also depicts graphically the transition between the society that Perry left in 1939 and how it is transformed through a series of acts by the Government. Of specific note is the 'War Voting Act'. In this act, if the United States wished to engage in armed conflict with any other country, a national referendum was required to be held. Voting was not obligatory for all citizens, but in the event that the article was passed and the country was to go to war, those who had voted for war were the first to be enlisted in the armed forces, those who abstained were the second conscripted, and those who voted 'No' were the third group. Heinlein states that in the history of the 'War Voting Act', the process had been enacted twice, and both times the entire citizenry were actively engaged in very vocal debate as to the whether the conflict was warranted. Both times, he states, the measures to go to war were defeated.</span></div></div>
While not one of the more famous Heinlein works, I highly suggest it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cavscout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you support the war, you fight the war. period </div></div>
I've been following this thread and can't help feeling there is merit in some of this sentiment while there is also oversimplification. Like the often lobbed charge of hypocrisy thrown by people who, if logic follows, apparently must support the aberrent or repulsive acts committed by the awful hypocrite, I don't think it's entirely fair to lump all the able-bodied-yet-not-serving supporters of the current wars as
beneath contempt.
The stand offish participation in this nation's wars since time immemorial has as much to do with the absence of recurrent invasions, such as those visited upon the Caucasus and Europe for millenia, as much as parents seeking to protect junior for his future in real estate. Even in WWII, when three nations had declared war on us, there was a draft to fill the need for man (and woman) power. Not 5 years after the end of hostilities, we found ourselves in a wicked war, fraught with global consequences, that found most Americans barely aware of it beyond the impact on a family member, or the absence of Ted Williams from the Red Sox line up.
Slave owners bought their way out of serving in "the cause" they had no qualms over sending the southern (and non slave owning) white peasantry to fight, much as northern aristocrats did the same in our civil war.
Foreign incursions went on for generations while American civilians toiled in their own ambivalence. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, all witnessed a military that was comprised of a tiny representation of the population of the nation. Many of whom could also have served.
While the current wars have been rife with simplistic, jingoistic sloganeering by musicians (especially several country "artists"), politicians, "personalities", and people who have it very good indeed, while other young men and women have made huge sacrifices, it is understanadable that there is resentment among those who have witnessed the cost disproportionately paid by so few.
I didn't serve when I was a young man. On the number line of manliness where a fire breather is a 10 and a hairdresser a .001 I feel I fall in the meaty part of the curve well below those who I would humbly deferr to as my superiors.
That said, I don't feel compelled to support those who claim we should only deploy our forces when we have been attacked and only where we have been attacked.
It does not follow that I should thwart the politicians who sent our forces over seas because I did not serve.
Respectfully.
</div></div>
You're right, it is an oversimplification and history is wrought with the opposite of the idea behind it.
While I wasn't around during WW2, I was always under the impression that while there was a draft- the majority went quite willingly and enlisted in much larger numbers in support of the war. Stars and soon to be Stars did their part for the most part. It was a much different war, a much different Society and collective mindset. While the consequences of an Allied loss were great, I wonder if perhaps the consequences of a loss today (if it's not contrived and blown out of proportion) would be of even greater consequence. The challenge faced by society in today's war is I feel a multi-pronged issue. The obfuscation of true threats and intelligence, successful operations, etc by the Government do not help. I found myself, a young PFC on the ground searching for answers about why I was where I was. By the time I did my first tour in 2005 it was blatantly obvious that the reasons we invaded Iraq were at best- bullshit. The reason for the mission went from WMD's/possible Al-Qaeda possession to "freeing" the Iraqis from the very man we supported for so long, to enabling the Iraqi people to have a democratic government which we then balked at when they wanted to do their own thing. By the time I got there, we were hearing from the president "Iraqi's will be taking over operations and control very shortly". I remember looking at the IA and Ministry of Interior Police Commandos (sort of like an Iraqi National SWAT team of "sorts") and just wondering if the president knew something I didn't. I'm sure he knew a lot of things I didn't but I knew from working with those yahoos the only control that would be happening would be in Shi'a hands. A democracy in Iraq dictates this anyway as the majority is Shi'a, if everyone voted on party lines. The mode in which they operated was more about vengeance than truly trying to clean up their country. Most of the guys we worked with were former political prisoners and a lot were just downright miscreants freed after the fall of Saddam.
Afghanistan at the time was a bygone forgotten effort from all I could tell. A friend of mine was in A-stan in 2005 and they had massive areas of operation. It was just ineffective. Where are we now? Scrambling to get that place under control after almost 10 years of presence there. 10 years? There's a reason they call that place the graveyard of empires.
I understand that certain people can't join and go over. That's fine. I also realize there is a pretty big segment of society that is perfectly able to join, support the war so far as to buy into the crap said on Fox news and take it as gospel, truly believe in the "fight them there so we don't fight them here" line, and yet- dont join. This is the group I have a problem with. I also understand there are people who are wishy washy on the fence regarding the war. They just don't pay attention to it, thats fine too. I don't expect them to join. The last group- truly anti-war ( or this war), "leftists" etc. I certainly don't expect them to join.
I just like people to put their money where their mouth is. I take no issue with those in no position to join due to age, true health issues, etc. I have no problem with people who are a little older and never served and support the war. Last thing we need is a grandpa brigade. There are other ways to support the war, if one is not able to fight. I know you (Queequeg) have done a lot at personal expense to show your support for guys overseas, as have a lot of other members here- many who have sent packages to guys overseas that I have given addresses for. That's nothing to sneeze at and certainly you have done more than most Americans to support the effort in the way you can.
Even our "enemy" the jihadists make this distinction. Jihad is more than strapping on an AK and setting IEDs. The mother who sends her son off, is in a jihad of her own in support of X cause. Jihad simply means "struggle". The fat rich man who supplies the money to buy equipment for the mujahideen, is an integral member of the Jihad. He certainly would be a poor fighter due to his age and health etc. But the Young man who is of fighting age? Eventually he has to do his part.
to illustrate my thoughts on the matter,I will quote a synopsis of the Heinlein novel " For us the living: a comedy of customs" re: national mentality regarding war in the society he writes about:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">'For Us, the Living' also depicts graphically the transition between the society that Perry left in 1939 and how it is transformed through a series of acts by the Government. Of specific note is the 'War Voting Act'. In this act, if the United States wished to engage in armed conflict with any other country, a national referendum was required to be held. Voting was not obligatory for all citizens, but in the event that the article was passed and the country was to go to war, those who had voted for war were the first to be enlisted in the armed forces, those who abstained were the second conscripted, and those who voted 'No' were the third group. Heinlein states that in the history of the 'War Voting Act', the process had been enacted twice, and both times the entire citizenry were actively engaged in very vocal debate as to the whether the conflict was warranted. Both times, he states, the measures to go to war were defeated.</span></div></div>
While not one of the more famous Heinlein works, I highly suggest it.
Re: real combat footage
There is no debating this kind of elitism, but I do sincerely appreciate <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> support all those who have served and are serving. As for "the war," that is a political discussion, not military. A short read of our nation's history will prove that bravery is not defined by the wearing of a uniform.
There is no debating this kind of elitism, but I do sincerely appreciate <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> support all those who have served and are serving. As for "the war," that is a political discussion, not military. A short read of our nation's history will prove that bravery is not defined by the wearing of a uniform.
Re: real combat footage
One cannot discuss the military without discussing politics. I don't think anyone is debating whether someone is brave or a coward because they haven't served or worn the uniform. I don't think that expecting people to put their money where their mouth is, is elitism. I think the issue is people who support sending men to die and to kill and to maim and be maimed, are able bodied themselves but find an excuse not to serve when they act like the absolute future of this nation depends on such action.
I often find these people have amazing excuses about why they didn't or aren't. "College", "family", "great job", etc. Are these things not at risk if the mighty elephant grows wings and sets off on his circus rampage here? Best defense is a good offense and all that jazz?
I dunno. Maybe I just expect too much out of Americans who support such endeavors.
Where's my fiddle, I smell a fire.
One cannot discuss the military without discussing politics. I don't think anyone is debating whether someone is brave or a coward because they haven't served or worn the uniform. I don't think that expecting people to put their money where their mouth is, is elitism. I think the issue is people who support sending men to die and to kill and to maim and be maimed, are able bodied themselves but find an excuse not to serve when they act like the absolute future of this nation depends on such action.
I often find these people have amazing excuses about why they didn't or aren't. "College", "family", "great job", etc. Are these things not at risk if the mighty elephant grows wings and sets off on his circus rampage here? Best defense is a good offense and all that jazz?
I dunno. Maybe I just expect too much out of Americans who support such endeavors.
Where's my fiddle, I smell a fire.
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