Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

Kruger21

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What year was the S&B PMII 5-25x56 released to the military/LE?

Then when was it released to the civilian market?
 

Kruger21

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I think I got my first one in 2005 maybe, it was $2450 which was pricey. Lol

it it was one from the very first shipment to the US don't recall the year exactly.

$2450!! thats outrageous :)
I thought they would be older that! only because I was dreaming about buying one for a long time before jumping in the deep end 2007-08, got my first one for $3k

I'd be interested to find out the year it was designed!

Frank do you still have your first PMII?
 

Kruger21

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Does the 3-20 have any noticeable tunneling?

No! it doesn't

But I didn't know about 5-25 tunneling even after owning the scope for a number of years, 1st i heard about was from a friend who asked me to check for tunneling on my 5-25 after he read about it on the internet a few years ago lol thought WTF are they on about. looked at my 5-25's oh I see what they must be talking about, thought so fucking what, my 5-25's have never been below 10x there whole life and never will. even my Zeiss 6-24 had some tunneling

I've had one 3-20 but didn't like it especially the locking MTC turrets, and it really wasn't that much smaller than a 5-25 I got caught up in all the hype
Sold the 3-20 for a Kahles 624i then wished i just bought another 5-25 PMII in the first place
 

Macmathews

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For the record, the tunneling is one of the many reasons I dislike S&B as well. Too many options available that do NOT tunnel, to compromise on something if it is important to you.

For those of us that have NO idea what tunneling is and have never even seen a S&B other than pictures..
Please explain

Kyle
 

Macmathews

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Oh..

Even with the back and forth of this Thread..
I have learned a lot about scopes in a very short period of time from people with ALOT more knowledge than me !
Cheers !

Kyle
 

tylerw02

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    For those of us that have NO idea what tunneling is and have never even seen a S&B other than pictures..
    Please explain

    Kyle



    The FOV remains static between 5-7x even though magnification decreased. If they would have made it a 7-25x nobody would have bitched and the scope would have been just as usable for 99% of the people. The 5x is only there, as I understand it, for use with clip-on NVDs.

    Supposedly the 3-20x and the new 3-27x do not do this. The latter being a very expensive scope.


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    JSF

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    I don't get why they are even making these scopes with a 3 to whatever. FFP is almost unusable for me at 5x and I have perfect vision. Can someone explain the point? Is 3x usable with a clip on? I can see that being the only reason.
     

    10fp

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    there are stages in matches that are like 25yards, your shooting offhand and such and want to find your target ASAP. supposed to mimic real-life. urban shooters (city PD's) will use down to 3x for sure. 95% of us tacticool folks wont even go down below 6 or 7.
     

    JSF

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    What I am saying is that I do know a bit about shooting... :)

    No one really cares what you are saying because you are comparing two hunting scopes to a tactical scope. Hunting animals was probably never considered in the thought process when S&B designed it. This forum is for tactical shooting. Most of us know Swaro's and Leicas have great glass. It is just not relevant here because they do not offer a product that suits our needs. So, it is apples and oranges.
     
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    JSF

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    there are stages in matches that are like 25yards, your shooting offhand and such and want to find your target ASAP. supposed to mimic real-life. urban shooters (city PD's) will use down to 3x for sure. 95% of us tacticool folks wont even go down below 6 or 7.

    I didn't think about it for observation. I seriously doubt a police officer will be taking a shot with a ffp scope on 3 power though.
     

    lowlight

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    there are stages in matches that are like 25yards, your shooting offhand and such and want to find your target ASAP. supposed to mimic real-life. urban shooters (city PD's) will use down to 3x for sure. 95% of us tacticool folks wont even go down below 6 or 7.

    Been there done that, Oregon Police / Mil match in Aug as the latest example, the first day was all inside 100 yards including 25 yards.

    Never went below 10x for that... was using a K624i and put every round in one hole, so much so they could barely score my 25 yard target because it was only 1 hole in the paper. If your sharp eyed you can see I am around 12x for this 100 yard shot. If you're square, straight and index the rifle on your target you can acquire it very fast.

    1167347_10151890159187953_886027367_o.jpg
     

    Early Cuyler

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    I took a DTA SRS to Africa back in June with two scopes: S&B 5-25x56 and Vortex PST 2.5-10x44. I brought the S&B because the professional hunters had a "mountain" (their term, it was more of a plateau a couple hundred feet high) that we were to do some long-range baboon hunting on. Never got on any baboons but the PH had a hard on for S&B so we just shot some rocks at ~400yds (Baboons were expected anywhere from 200-800yds). S&B did really well for that!


    The rest of the trip my DTA had the PST on it. This combo was lugged around for 20-25 miles and worked much much better than the S&B. The wider FOV in particular (kept it at 2.5x) was the primary advantage. Took my zebra with it (60yd shot) and will probably return to Africa with it too!


    Point is- both can be used for hunting, just different styles. If I'm going to be making particularly long shots on game, I want the additional magnification of the S&B so as to give me warm fuzzies about shot placement. That was the baboons. The zebra and warthog were going to be close range shots while carrying the rifle/scope through dense, thorny, demonic, evil, diabolic, mephistophelean, blood-drawing bushes. The smaller PST got hung up/caught much less.

    Just like Frank said- Right tool for the job!
     

    BGE541

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    Been there done that, Oregon Police / Mil match in Aug as the latest example, the first day was all inside 100 yards including 25 yards.

    Never went below 10x for that... was using a K624i and put every round in one hole, so much so they could barely score my 25 yard target because it was only 1 hole in the paper. If your sharp eyed you can see I am around 12x for this 100 yard shot. If you're square, straight and index the rifle on your target you can acquire it very fast.

    1167347_10151890159187953_886027367_o.jpg

    Ahh is your bolt handle up?
     

    lowlight

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    Ya, I was being safe, checked the shot, make sure the position was good, dropped the bolt and made the shot. Was Top 10 so I must have don't something right.

    The guy just clicked the picture before i lowered it.

    You had to run from the driver's seat, to the trunk, remove the rifle and then run to the hood and shoot. The bolt up was the safest position.
     

    Fitz

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    LL, i see that your wearing some kind of ear pro even though your shooting suppressed. What are they?
     

    10fp

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    Been there done that, Oregon Police / Mil match in Aug as the latest example, the first day was all inside 100 yards including 25 yards.

    Never went below 10x for that... was using a K624i and put every round in one hole, so much so they could barely score my 25 yard target because it was only 1 hole in the paper. If your sharp eyed you can see I am around 12x for this 100 yard shot. If you're square, straight and index the rifle on your target you can acquire it very fast.

    1167347_10151890159187953_886027367_o.jpg

    yeah i know all about the match Frank. I agree lowest i had my 5-25 was 6 maybe 7 ever like i said, but i could see how a large city PD sniper would want a 3x or 5x, say making a shot on a full sized target at 40yards. Shooting on 5x is still very doable to 300y+
     

    Thumper580

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    If the data are still accurate the average shot distance for law enforcement is 75 yards. A scope in the 2-10x would make the most sense.
     

    dms416

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    try reading the thread it was explained more than once here...

    It it had to do with a year old incident at Shot. It's not related directly to scopes.

    Just dumbasses quoting shit out of context.


    So I'm a "dumbass" now?

    Frank, you are the one who proudly states all this grand knowledge and experience with all these optics...touring the factories and what not.

    You made ominous and ambiguous comments about a respected optics manufacturer and provided little to no context. I made this post hoping you would weigh in on them and hopefully provide context. If I am to be told "it's none of my business"...super secret insider bullshit, that's fine too, but those comments were what you put out for public consumption.

    I'm sorry that I either missed the explanation or it took this long for someone to scratch their heads and go..."what did he mean by that".
     
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    lowlight

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    it was posted more than once, including a big long post by me, if you missed it, don't get it, I am not gonna repeat it, as I answered the question.

    As to my statement, it was made a YEAR AGO in reference to an incident at SHOT... it was a YEAR OLD you brought the comment back from the dead.

    So please spare me... Try reading this thread it was completely answered, completely... pages back.
     

    dms416

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    Nope, I'm good.

    I got everything I wanted to know...and then some. I promise you need not burden yourself with any of my future inquiries...if there happen to be any.
     

    Coloradocop

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    The FOV remains static between 5-7x even though magnification decreased. If they would have made it a 7-25x nobody would have bitched and the scope would have been just as usable for 99% of the people. The 5x is only there, as I understand it, for use with clip-on NVDs.

    Supposedly the 3-20x and the new 3-27x do not do this. The latter being a very expensive scope.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    There's no noticeable tunneling on my 3-20x. But, as someone mentioned in the post after yours, there isn't a heck of a lot of use for the 3x power setting on a FFP scope of this variety (at least in my opinion). I guess if you're watching an area and need to have the widest field of view possible, it might be okay. But, even with perfect vision I can't make out the reticle details at 3x, and the lines are very fine at that magnification (enough so that it would be tough to acquire the reticle in thick brush at that magnification level). But, I'm mostly mentioning that for the sake of discussion, because I don't think I've ever needed to dial below 7x in any of the shooting I've done with this scope (and 7x is about the lowest power setting where I think I can get full use of the H2CMR reticle).
     

    lowlight

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    Love it when people come on a site called "Sniper's Hide" and expect to be handed information on a silver plate as if we are presenting it to royalty. And then get all offended when they read, Shit, Fuck, Dumbass, as if it's a personal affront to their humanity.

    Go to the movies this weekend, watch Lone Survivor, see when Lutterrel gives the new guy a mission and dumps the coffee and trashes the table... that might provide a clue of the mentality we are working with here. It's not a given, you earn it.

    The question has been answered in this thread more than once, so why it is our fault when you fail to keep up ? I'll never figure this out.

    Next time I will name the site, "Puppies like Guns too" and there we'll treat you to daily doses of puppy breath so you can start your day with a happy puppy love feeling.
     

    dms416

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    I know the question has been answered. I feel silly for saying this, but if you will recall, I am the OP. I only asked once, but I was merely commenting on why I felt the original inquiry was reasonable, not a personal atack. Given your response, it is obvious we are not even on the same page here. Thanks for your input on the original matter and subsequent info on the other issues brought up in this thread.
     

    sharac

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    when you fail to keep up ? I'll never figure this out.

    nope you never will your birth date is way too low. With rare exceptions most of the younger people simply "expect" things to be there when one needs them. Waste of energy thinking twice about it...
     

    Notso

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    try reading the thread it was explained more than once here...

    It it had to do with a year old incident at Shot. It's not related directly to scopes.

    Just dumbasses quoting shit out of context.

    Sorry, I was being sarcastic. They obviously are not imploding. We need a sarcasm font here....
     

    jtg1972

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    Hey guys, I am just getting into tactical long range shooting... should I get a s&b 5x25 pm II p4? I wanna use it on a Barrett 82a1 and surgeon 6.5cm.
     

    JSF

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    I would not get the P4 reticle unless you just really like it. Look at the H2CMR or MSR. If you like the P4 look at the P4 fine.
     

    steve123

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    I just helped S&B not implode by buying a 3-20x50/CCW/H-59/L-MTC. I got a really good deal on it being that it is a 2013 model and was offered at a discount. A plus is it came with Tenebraex covers.

    After months of contemplating what features I could live with or without ... S&B edged out the competition because my favorite reticle happens to be the H-59. I was looking for a smaller lighter scope than the S&B 5-25 for my lighter weight tactical rifle which I'll use for hunting and for various matches and also sharing duty on the 22 rimfire for those same purposes. The compromise I had to make was sacrificing my desire for 10Y parallax and settle for 25M parallax instead. The good thing is I found out that at 3x mag I can at least see a focused image at 10Y which means that it'll work good for 98% of what I'd want to use it for. I still might try it for HFT air rifle since I use the reticle for ranging the targets anyway.

    Before I bought this scope my greatest fear was that I would dislike the MTC locking turrets. My fears are relieved now! I guess I'm the opposite of most because I like them better than any turret I've come across so far! I'm especially appreciating the locking turrets after having the windage dial move - (bummer!) ...4 clicks left on my 5-25 in the drag bag at our last match. I actually just discovered that they moved a few days ago when comparing the two scopes side by side. There's always a first time for anything, friggen Murphy! "note to self" - always check the windage from now on.

    Being older and not seeing the greatest up close anymore without the reading glasses I find the MTC feature awesome. Using the feel and sound of clicks and clunks helps me to find where I'm supposed to be dialed to easier. I really like the zero stops and MTC clunk on the windage dial too. Even liking the sighting in and setting zero mechanism much better than the old DT turrets.

    The glass is typical S&B awesomeness of course! Sheesh, I hate the glass in my other scopes now.

    Ha, my wife is starting to give me funny looks because I'm constantly giving her the thumbs up commentary about the scope.
     

    oldfatguy

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    What is everyone referring to when they say that SB are imploding and that certain scopes suck? Is it because they do not take I to account what the customers want or because their QC is beginning to suck? I am looking into buying two scopes and SB was on my list so please advise.

    Bender bashing seems to be real popular right now. Trick is to separate fact from fiction. And it is probably more revealing to know where the negative claims come from and why they are being made.
     

    E. Bryant

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    Bender bashing seems to be real popular right now.

    That's pretty common behavior towards frontrunners. Eventually, something better will come along, and earn its own unfair share of criticism from the haters.
     

    jtg1972

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    Do you guys think I will regret buying the S&B over the NF atacr? I do like the H2CMR.
     

    orkan

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    Care to share which optic is wearing the crown and why?
    Choosing optics seems to be a very personal choice. Most people would tolerate a sexual innuendo toward their mother before tolerating a cross word about their favorite optics company. You didn't say "The winner" but rather a frontrunner.

    Any new optic in the high price range is met with hatred. It has nothing to do with the products, or the companies... but people. When you look at where we are as a society, the posts read here are less surprising.
     

    Mirnyx

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    Choosing optics seems to be a very personal choice. Most people would tolerate a sexual innuendo toward their mother before tolerating a cross word about their favorite optics company. You didn't say "The winner" but rather a frontrunner.

    Any new optic in the high price range is met with hatred. It has nothing to do with the products, or the companies... but people. When you look at where we are as a society, the posts read here are less surprising.


    That seems like an awfully PC answer Orkan. E. Bryant said something better will come along and earn criticism from the haters. You responded it already has.

    Again, I'm asking which optic do you feel has taken the crown from S&B and why?
     

    BozFour

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    That seems like an awfully PC answer Orkan. E. Bryant said something better will come along and earn criticism from the haters. You responded it already has.

    Again, I'm asking which optic do you feel has taken the crown from S&B and why?


    I again +1
     

    tylerw02

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    Seems if somebody has a vested interest in the success of a product in the category, that will be the answer. Anything else would surprise me.


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