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What's the Big Deal About that New Physics Discovery I Keep Hearing About?

Dogtown

Ke = (mv^2)/2
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Minuteman
  • Jun 21, 2007
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    The results from the BICEP2 experiment was such a major a deal for Physics and Cosmology this week that the news spread pretty far into the mainstream, although expectedly in a rather confused way. So you may wonder "what's the big fuss?"



    As usual, Hank does a better job breaking it down quickly.

    I'll throw in my $0.02 since this is ever so slightly in my wheelhouse considering that this is a precision rifle forum. The results basically rocked the foundation of the Physics and Cosmology (not makeup and hairdos, but the study of the origin, evolution and fate of the Universe) communities because it's kind of a triple-whammy of breakthroughs.

    First, it's more evidence for the existence of Gravitational Waves. Why is that important? Of all the many predictions of Einstein's extremely successful theory of General Relativity, the existence of gravitational waves is the last one yet to be confirmed. They've been seen indirectly before, but this observation better fits predictions based on the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background) and how it would be affected by an initial rapid expansion of the very early Universe.

    Second, it's the first direct evidence of Inflation, a theory that explains how the early Universe went through a rapid expansionary period between the very beginning and where the Big Bang model picks up. The Big Bang model has been supported by more and more evidence over the last fifty years, but there have always been peculiarities that bothered Cosmologists. In particular, observation of the CMB shows that the distribution of matter/energy is incredibly smooth and homogeneous, which doesn't make sense when you extrapolate our understanding of Physics from the start to where the Universe has expanded to over 13.8 billion years. To figure out a way to explain why that might be, Alan Guth came up with the theory of Inflation, which is a mathematical model allowing for the Universe in the first 1 x 10[SUP]-34[/SUP] seconds (0.00000000000000000000000000000000001) of its existence to go through a short, rapid expansion. This process creates very smooth initial conditions for the Universe consistent with the observational data. The BICEP2 experiment looked at the polarization of the microwaves in the CMB and how they were distorted by gravitational waves consistent with Guth (and Linde's) mathematical models for Inflation.

    458820ah-5.1.jpg


    Third, this new evidence for Gravitational Waves and Inflation suggests that there is very likely a quantum component to Gravity! This is a big deal because the two physics models that we reliably use are General Relativity (explains the motion of the very large) and Quantum Mechanics (explains the motion of the very small), however there is no crossover between the two and no way to join them into a Grand Unified Theory. The key is Gravity, which General Relativity explains to high precision as a natural curvature to space/time in the presence of mass/energy. But there is still no working component for gravity in Quantum Mechanics and this is a huge problem. There have been many proposals, but none of them yet have been confirmed by experimental data. Part of the problem is that compared to the three other forces in Physics (electromagnetism, strong nuclear & weak nuclear), gravity is insanely weak so building a particle accelerator powerful enough to detect its force carrier particles will never be practical. Thankfully, Inflation by its very definition relies on Quantum Mechanics and because there is now evidence for it and the gravitational waves it predicts, that indirectly means that there is in fact a quantum mechanical component to gravity. So in other words, we don't know exactly where the land nav point is on the map, but at least we know what grid square it's in.

    On a side note - This is a science topic, not a religious topic - please keep it that way.
     
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    While that guy may seem to know what he is speaking of, I'll be waiting for Sheldon and Leonard to fully explain this process in a more concise and detailed manner. Kuthrapali (sp?) may have to weigh in there, as well.

    All jokng aside, Dogtown, thanks for enlightening us here. It makes more sense to me.
     
    Just to keep thinks in perspective; 70 years ago everyone was 100% sure that it was impossible to break the sound barrier....
     
    There is no 100% when science is done properly. Knowledge is always provisional with the understanding that new evidence can further confirm, refine or contradict it.
     
    What is funny is that this "new" discovery has been presumed as true in many scientific disciplines for decades, it really changes nothing unless you are studying "theoretical sciences". The 7 physical laws are still in tact, so not that big of a deal in reality. Some disciplines that relied on "now erroneous" theories will have a bugger of a year. The author of my first Thermodynamics textbook (1985 edition) wrote several papers using the 7 physical laws to illustrate the big bang theory, expansion of the universe, and universality of gravity. When you use the scientific method, you are studying science. When you rely on theory, it is faith, or religion, but many of those people still want to call it science. When something new is discovered, or proven in this realm, it does not change ANYTHING except to startle those who believed something erroneous and based their life or career on it.

    For those of you not in the "affected" fields, the sun will still come up tomorrow, the tax bills will still be due April 15th, and at the end of your life you will still die. In essence, nothing "real" has changed, so don't worry about it too much.
     
    When you use the scientific method, you are studying science. When you rely on theory, it is faith, or religion, but many of those people still want to call it science.

    Wait, what?

    Do you realize there's a difference between the colloquial use of the word "theory" and the scientific use? In science, a theory is a framework or model that explains observational data and experimentation. It's completely different than a scientific law - there is no hierarchy between the two where one is elevated over the other. Scientific theories don't get proven into laws. And theoretical work is a legitimate form of science. That's specifically why there is such a thing as Theoretical Physicist and Experimental Physicist. How are the three key areas I listed in the original post not major breakthroughs in Physics and Cosmology?

    No big bang anyways... lol


    Do you have evidence that counters the existing evidence that supports the Big Bang Theory? As far as I know it continues to be confirmed by observational data, but if you know something we don't, you should submit a paper for peer review because if confirmed, there would likely be a Nobel Prize in your future.
     
    Years ago, I was watching a few interviews of the designers and builders of the Large Hadron Super-Collider. One of them, (I forget his name, regrettably) stated:

    "Science is what we do, when we don't know what we're doing."

    Ever since, I've thought that was a fitting description. So very accurate.
     
    A more accurate statement would be "science is what we do when don't know something."

    ETA: and there's serious irony in that statement coming from an LHC scientist. They knew exactly what they were doing designing that machine and the necessary experiments to search for a crucial missing piece of the Standard Model of Particle Physics. And it was precisely where the theory predicted the Higgs would be - so they must be doing something right. Did they know it would be there? No, but the highly successful theoretical framework had been correct about many other particles and predicted it would be at the energy density range it was found in. And even better, most were hoping it wouldn't be there, because that would mean there was some major component of the Standard Model missing that would potentially reveal a new, revolutionary realm of physics.
     
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    okay, got it.
    The galaxy I'm in is basicly a single #8 shot pellet and we've been waiting 13.8 Billion years for the report to catch up to us.
    Also, can I assume that the "gravitational waves" are the result of some sort of choke in said cosmic shotgun, or just an echo off something that didn't exist prior to the big trigger pull?

    Congrats too to those involved,, pre-ordained Noble Prize winners. Kuddos to you to be in the very exclusive club along with our current president. The rest is just details.

    Being as ignorant as I admit,, I do have a question tho:
    What happened one billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth(that's 4 right?) of a second BEFORE the big trigger was pulled?

    I tried the (0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001) "1X10 to the negative some shit" thing, and frankly got bored. Sorry, my heart didn't melt, rather my logic woke the f*ck up. It's got to be awesome when my theory PROVES your theory.
    I loved watching Carl too,, but damn,, seriously Dog,, go to the range more. Everything else is "death by powerpoint" lol
     
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    No big bang anyways... lol

    Oh you mean the big "Poof!" and then Ta-Daaa!


    Well by my references the "Ta-Daaa" was a few thousand years ago after which man rode dinosaurs around. Too bad the dinos were struck down for their sin in the great flood. I hear T-Rex tasted like chicken.

    Seriously..

    It's gonna be great when we can prove the existence of worm holes. This A to B stuff sucks.
     
    Great post [MENTION=12158]Dogtown[/MENTION].

    I'll never truly grasp these things at the necessary level, but find them fascinating all the same.
     
    What made all of the bang go in one direction?
    I think there are opposite universes playing out in other directions. We cannot see them, because we can't catch up to that light.
    There's another me in one of them, and instead of typing this message, he's watching three-headed hotties finger each other on three-headedhotties.com.
     
    The "Fate" of the universe; Its all going to get sucked into a giant black hole; Shankster we need you now...

    000946-fat-overweight-black-woman-with-huge-red-hair-eating-kfc-chicken11.jpg2648_super_fat_woman.jpg
     
    Seriously, though, these scientists go to far in all their theories. I learned a secret ....no beginning, no end, with perfect equilibrium throughout. In other words, if you can accept the reality of "eternal and infinite" then there was no beginning. And in fact as Tucker suggested before, there can be only ONE universe...ie: One Word, not multiples because then it wouldn't me 'Uni-verse', it would be 'multi-verse'.

    But theories are fun.
     
    FourFans Gave you the answer tucker a FULL CHOKE.
    What made all of the bang go in one direction?
    I think there are opposite universes playing out in other directions. We cannot see them, because we can't catch up to that light.
    There's another me in one of them, and instead of typing this message, he's watching three-headed hotties finger each other on three-headedhotties.com.
     
    As for what happened before the trigger got pulled, would it be reasonable to suggest that before the bang, the conditions that make time (space-time?) possible did not exist?

    Look at it this way. All equations balance like a scale, with the fulcrum occurring at the equals sign. When one of the sides equals either zero or infinity, that means that all the mathematical computation on the other side of the equals sign works out as being equal to a singularity, which is science's way of defining the undefinable. I.e. singularity means pretty much that there is no way to describe whatever it is that they're calling a singularity; the descriptive terms have not yet been defined.

    Greg
     
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    What made all of the bang go in one direction?
    I think there are opposite universes playing out in other directions. We cannot see them, because we can't catch up to that light.
    There's another me in one of them, and instead of typing this message, he's watching three-headed hotties finger each other on three-headedhotties.com.

    Arrow of time...
     
    Let me put it another way.
    I appreciate the efforts to educate me on all of this, but I'm Christopher Columbus's dimwitted farmer cousin.
    You go on ahead without me, because whether the world is flat or round, I still have 2 acres to plow today and the oxen broke the yoke this morning. :(
     
    Thanks for the info Dowtown, I guess I will have to dust off the gravitational wave generator I have in the garage and get off this rock...
     
    The biggest component of this is that our tax payer funding follows the public interest. This much coverage translates into big dollars for Academia, and how much you want to bet NASA gets some more coin. That is my real-world application of this news event. Albeit, I find it interesting, this has not caused me to shutter with excitement.
    And yes, the condom cloud is growing, but I assume it is growing 360 degrees in the x, y, and z, not in just one vector. I think the picture is simplified to illustrate the point of the study. That said. I damn sure can be wrong (just ask my wife how often I am wrong).
     
    Seriously, though, these scientists go to far in all their theories. I learned a secret ....no beginning, no end, with perfect equilibrium throughout. In other words, if you can accept the reality of "eternal and infinite" then there was no beginning. And in fact as Tucker suggested before, there can be only ONE universe...ie: One Word, not multiples because then it wouldn't me 'Uni-verse', it would be 'multi-verse'.

    But theories are fun.

    This isn't a secret, it's a view that's simplified to a level you're comfortable with.
     
    So are there mini gravitational waves floating around throwing off my POI? How do we compensate for this effect? Gravitometer?

    eddie1979 is working on the video to properly compensate for that,he is also working with counter sniper scopes
    for a custom reticle to counter the gravitational pull.
     
    All this knowledge and info is great but what the fuck is it useful for?

    Also have they figured out what came first, the chicken, or the egg? <--- That has bothered me for a long time.
     
    I can't say a whole lot about theoretical physics because that is about the point in school where my brain began to really hurt and I decided chemistry was more interesting. But my hat goes off to those who are/were able to forge through. One thing this whole thread reminds me of is when I realized that all those incredible scientists in the 1800s through the 1920s who made break-throughs that would not be proven out until they were long since dead were more bright than I can imagine. I was and still am a guy who needs to have things proven to me. Although I do rely more and more on intuition as I get older. In school (and later at work) I had gas chromatography, matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization time-of-flight mass spectrometry, plasma assisted laser desorption, and a lot of other tools with which to analyze things. Those guys and gals who came up with the theories way back in the day had no such tools. What they had was evidence of something and by putting the facts together the theory is what made sense. Some people might take that so far as to call it faith. Suffice it to say that when I understood that all of the tools laying around the lab could not equal what some of these people had stuffed between their ears I felt pretty small.

    People asked the same questions back then about what it means in practical terms, just like in 1900 when Max Planck came up with his law of black body radiation. Just looking at the crap this guy did on a black board makes me want to drink. Today we enjoy the benefits of his labors with lots of quality and inexpensive outdoor lighting. Almost every major scientific advancement has followed this pattern of theoretical mumbo jumbo on the outer perimeter of imagination to, in this case, my deck lights. We are surrounded by all sorts of things right now that began on a black board and existed only in someone's mind.

    To drive the point home... One of my favorite reactions in organic chemistry involved taking benzene (a ring of carbon) and performing first an electrophyllic substitution with a methyl group (the Friedel-Crafts reaction) and then with NO2 at the ortho, meta and para positions around the ring. If you're not bored to tears yet you might wonder what that has to do with everyday life. Well, in 1863 a German chemist came up with this chemical. Benzene + the methyl group = Toluene. Toluene was first made by a Pole in the early 1800s, and as far as I know it had no practical use at the time. While it is a solvent, benzene by itself is a great, thought cancer causing, solvent for almost anything. Add the 3 NO2 groups and you have TNT. But TNT was initially used as a dye and it was a while before someone figured a more colorful (pun intended) use for it. None of us have to wonder very much about what practical application that has.

    I know I didn't help make any sense of what it is these physics guys are up to, but if history is a teacher it probably does have (or will have) some real and practical meaning even if we don't know what it is today. I'm just impressed they can do this stuff at all.
     
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggot View Post

    Seriously, though, these scientists go to far in all their theories. I learned a secret ....no beginning, no end, with perfect equilibrium throughout. In other words, if you can accept the reality of "eternal and infinite" then there was no beginning. And in fact as Tucker suggested before, there can be only ONE universe...ie: One Word, not multiples because then it wouldn't me 'Uni-verse', it would be 'multi-verse'.

    But theories are fun.


    This isn't a secret, it's a view that's simplified to a level you're comfortable with.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Secret was perhaps a poor choice of words. However simplification is the foundation of most all sciences...reducing a problem to its lowest common denominator. Avoiding the concept of 'infinite' which is far to large for most to even attempt, one definition of 'Universe' is:

    "The Universe is commonly defined as the totality of existence."

    If that's so, then how can there be anything outside of "the totality of existence"?

    Or, taking its definition from the word itself....Uni-verse...or 'one word' (probably relating back to some religious statement about ALL coming from the word spoken by some being...but lets avoid the religion). If it is one, then there cannot be many of them...only one. There may be mini-verses, within the uni-verse, but when you say uni, we mean 'ne'...think' uniform'. Now that we've cleared that up lets consider the word infinite, or infinity.

    Again, using one current definition, infinity is..."2.Unbounded space, time, or quantity." Another way to consider it would be..."without beginning or end".

    How can that which is unbounded, without limit, possibly expand or contract? It cannot, therefore the whole concept of an expanding or contracting universe is hogwash. Some minute portion of it may be expanding or contracting, that small portion we have become aware of and choose to attempt to measure, but not the infinite universe itself. Within the infinite, it would not matter how far (a relative term) you traveled, you have not moved at all. There is only relative, or assigned, measurements within an unlimited format.

    Its really so simple that its overlooked. Minds that exalt in knowledge, often entirely miss wisdom, because of its simplicity.

    Now that's not to say that all those things in the video may not be happening with in a subset, or miniverse, scale, but in the greater shceme of things they are largely irrelevant. Interesting to chat about, but ultimately without importance.

    Consider Aristotle's explanation ot time. "Time is only the measurement of repetitive motion." Such as the repetitive dripping of water in a stream, or the repetition of the moon circling the earth, now I believe the 1/2 life of a Cesium atom. But what happens when the stream dries up, or the moon is impacted by a meteor and destroyed? Does time stop? No we just come to realize that time is just something we made up to amuse, and often distract ourselves. What we really have is a continuum of existence that we are brief blips with in.
     
    Unbounded domains can expand and contract easily as long as they can be quantized. For example, imagine an infinitely large sheet of graph paper with dots in some of the squares. Now inflate the size of the squares and those dots will all move away from each other - that's our expanding Universe (in a highly simple way). The Universe isn't expanding into anything, but space itself is expanding. And the evidence for this is overwhelming, coming from multiple independent sources.
     
    Unbounded domains can expand and contract easily as long as they can be quantized. For example, imagine an infinitely large sheet of graph paper with dots in some of the squares. Now inflate the size of the squares and those dots will all move away from each other - that's our expanding Universe (in a highly simple way). The Universe isn't expanding into anything, but space itself is expanding. And the evidence for this is overwhelming, coming from multiple independent sources.

    Understood, Dog, but what is it expanding "into"? That's what Im driving at...if its expanding, it must be expanding into something....and what it is expanding into is greater than it, itself, and therefore cannot be the end we are looking for.....and in actuality there is no end, so the expansion is all relative...to some other perceived event or object, but not the infinite, itself.

    Im not being obtuse, but I learned to approach this stuff more from a philosophical bent, rather than a mathematical one. The sum of the parts cannot be greater than the whole.

    After looking at your reply what Id say is that Infinity cannot be quantified as it is ...well, infinite.
     
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    The biggest component of this is that our tax payer funding follows the public interest. This much coverage translates into big dollars for Academia, and how much you want to bet NASA gets some more coin. That is my real-world application of this news event. Albeit, I find it interesting, this has not caused me to shutter with excitement.
    And yes, the condom cloud is growing, but I assume it is growing 360 degrees in the x, y, and z, not in just one vector. I think the picture is simplified to illustrate the point of the study. That said. I damn sure can be wrong (just ask my wife how often I am wrong).

    The exploration of physics and science is underfunded by orders of magnitude compared to our military spending. So much so that many new experiments are now relying on partial crowd funding. NASAs/SETTI/NCAR/JPL have all had massive budget cuts going back to the first Bush administration. The 50s/60s/70s seeing some of the greatest growth in budget for science and exploration in the United States. Those major pushes into exploration and hard science had substantial trickle down effect into the private sector technology. The trickle effect gave rise to our then suppository as a super power and free market.

    Personally I am more than happy to have some of my taxes fund such endeavors.
     
    See that's the thing, it isn't expanding into anything - you're just seeing it from a completely normal, rational anthropic point of view. We assume that it has to, but mathematically unbounded domains can expand and contract without doing so into or out of another domain. The most common misconception about the Big Bang is that it was an explosion in space when what it's saying is that it was actually an explosion of space (and time). And it's technically not the Universe that's expanding, it's space that's expanding. Minute Physics does a better job of explaining it...

     
    Wait, what?

    Do you realize there's a difference between the colloquial use of the word "theory" and the scientific use? In science, a theory is a framework or model that explains observational data and experimentation. It's completely different than a scientific law - there is no hierarchy between the two where one is elevated over the other. Scientific theories don't get proven into laws. And theoretical work is a legitimate form of science. That's specifically why there is such a thing as Theoretical Physicist and Experimental Physicist. How are the three key areas I listed in the original post not major breakthroughs in Physics and Cosmology?


    [/COLOR]
    Do you have evidence that counters the existing evidence that supports the Big Bang Theory? As far as I know it continues to be confirmed by observational data, but if you know something we don't, you should submit a paper for peer review because if confirmed, there would likely be a Nobel Prize in your future.




    PM'd you response due to your request at the bottom of your post.

    BGE
     
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    Hell man, this post could make a guy want to sit back some some marijuana and ponder the universe. I am very surprised at the number of uber-nerds here on this forum.
     


    Here, I'll let Cosmologist Sean Carroll explain...

    NOTE: the answer starts at 4m18s


    Did she say "Mind-Bottling??" Is this all a Conspiracy Theory to bottle my mind? Tin foil where are you!!!!! Gotta love the News... I do like his first answer though as too how it impacts us.
     
    See that's the thing, it isn't expanding into anything - you're just seeing it from a completely normal, rational anthropic point of view. We assume that it has to, but mathematically unbounded domains can expand and contract without doing so into or out of another domain. The most common misconception about the Big Bang is that it was an explosion in space when what it's saying is that it was actually an explosion of space (and time). And it's technically not the Universe that's expanding, it's space that's expanding. Minute Physics does a better job of explaining it...




    Interesting minute. Let me get with Jerry and smoke a fat one and ponder it...just kidding. But it still doesn't factor in what Im speaking of as the infinite...or as some have phrased it, the unknowable, that which is beyond the comprehension of the finite mind. It can be 'experienced', but not 'known quantitatively', so to speak.
     
    A more accurate statement would be "science is what we do when don't know something."

    Yes, that is what many do. But, there are also many that throw their hands in the air and claim it to be unknowable...