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SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

Day 4

I was going to shoot last night, but the mirage was wicked. I got side tracked with the kids and forgot to take the targets down. Well....the wind blew last night and those targets are gone. So here it is tonight.....260 rem. 140g. VLD, 5@209yds, 70*F, low humidity, 3mph R to L wind, Gemtech HVT was screwed on, that's a 3/4" dot for reference. Sun was settin' fast, so I didn't pull the trigger on the .243... 2013-09-13_19-28-09_191.jpg

edit to add: bipod, rear bag, off the bench....grass is tall out to my 200 yd berm
 
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Day 5

Same deal as day 4. Shot this 'morn about 0800. 54*F, 100%RH, wind was R to L 3-6ish....It's been fun, good idea Lowlight.2013-09-14_08-24-11_667.jpg
 
Shot day four here as my wife was yelling at me to hurry up, we had to get to my sons football game.
 

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For my day two run I decided to throw in a twist and run this drill on 3 different rifles. This allowed me to (fairly) do this several times in one day since my range is a bit of a drive. The players were a GAP10, GAP HRT, and Seekins-based SPR in .223...3 very different sticks. I kept all tries at 3 shots since I ran these at 850 (600 for the SPR) and I'm not quite ninja enough to time the wind perfectly 5 shots straight. All 3 sticks were clean cold bore and I did not dry fire to dial myself in to each platform. I also pulled spotter duty so I had around 20 minutes between attempts. To give you some scale...targets were a full sized IPSC @ 850 and a 2/3 IPSC at 600. All prone off bipod and a rear bag. Factory FGM 7.62-175's and FGM .223 69's

753-guns.jpg


1st up was the GAP 10. There was a steady/light right to left breeze at the treetops that I couldn't see and my CB splashed about 9" from center at 8'oclock. Without correction I sent 2 more and was greeted with the smallest 3-shot group I've ever shot from this rifle at this distance (2.5 inches). Safe to say I didn't really care that it was just outside MOA from center. To save myself a paint run I dialed a slight correction and shot the top group...all approx. 4 inches of center. This rifle has around 5K rounds through it.

754-gap10.jpg


Next up was the HRT and as always it was a freak show. CB is at 3 o'clock. Follow-up stacked dead nuts on top of it. 3rd went a little high.

755-hrt.jpg


Lastly was the SPR at 600. CB is at 2 o'clock then the wind kicked up and pushed the 2 follow-ups right. This stick is new and I have virtually no trigger time on it...I think today made 40 rounds through it to date. I'm quite impressed with it so far and it will make a great trainer. My shooting partner had one of those reactive T-Zone targets and I was tagging it easily at 300 yds.

756-spr.jpg


While I didn't exactly run these the way this thread intended (shooting short range here is a PITA) I think I had more fun shooting today than I've had in awhile. In fact I'm not a gambler but today may be a good day to buy a lotto ticket. Great idea for a drill and I may make it a habit of taking a few extra rifles with me just for this purpose.
 
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Got day three done tonight after work. Fouled cold bore still with around 150 since last cleaning. I already know nothing changes with a clean barrel. The bore is very smooth and never collected copper from day one. Barrel has around 600 rounds on it so far.



On Sunday I ripped a 197-20x at the Springwater 185 yard F class match
 
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Finished day 3 this morning and thought I'd give others a mid-term report. I dorked the second shot on my day three target.
 

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Fouled cold bore and two follow-up shots this morning.

65 rounds through the rifle. No barrel break-in and I have not cleaned the bore yet.

6xc at 100m:
3udysasy.jpg
 
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Damn Graham, just think what those three would look with a proper barrel break in.............grin! Your barrel break in is identical to mine.
 
For my fourth attempt I figured I'd try it on a new stick with maybe 20 rounds through it. I hate shooting at 100 but needed to finish barrel break-in today. This is my second time out with this rifle. GAP-built R700, Ax chassis, Remy X Mark trigger, PH 5-25X Tactical w/Gen IIXR

Clean/cold bore dead center
Follow-up stacked on top
3rd flier was me...a dragonfly kept zigzagging my FOV so I waited...and waited...but he wouldn't cross dead center so I had to tag him 1/4 inch low/left :cool:

761-imag0149.jpg


759-p9200089.jpg
 
OK, so I cleaned my .260 rifle and removed all the copper from the bore. Then I took the scope off the base, removed the scope from the rings, and re-mounted the same scope in the same rings on the same rifle.

Here's the result, at 100m: First shot was at 7 o'clock just outside of a 2" ShootNC. Second and third shots were forming a group, but the zero was two tenths low. Adjusted two tents up, then shot three 3/8" dots. The rifle is now zeroed and the elevation is consistent (the windage inside the dots is me on the trigger). Group size: 6 rounds.

I say group size is six because the diameter of the group is not important, what all the shots together tell me about the performance of my equipment is what is important.

u8ama8u5.jpg

9unevazy.jpg
 
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Graham said:
I think we can wait the twenty minutes it takes to mount a scope.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
Click to expand...

20 minutes,HA! I had to lap the rings and everything which is a PITA, I'm not taking any short cuts on this one, I did get her zeroed yesterday though and it tracks good. I bought the 8-32X with NP-R1 and love it so far.

The only missing link now is the S8 .308 shilen select match barrel.
 
I got out to fire my last target for the Cold Bore Challenge. I should continue to do this to get an idea of my abilities. Thanks for thinking of this Frank!
 

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I'll have to give this a go next year, no time to do it this year. I'll shoot it at 300yds, though. Need to enlarge these black dots or make my own.
 
Day 4 now with the Nightforce scope. Temp was 63 F, I think I may need to up my charge a couple 10ths to stay in node.



 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

Clean cold bore and two follow up shots at 100m. Went from BN DTACs to naked DTACs, fouled bore to clean bore, 75F to 50F and here is the result, 3rds, first shot on the right. The top shot at one o'clock is covered by the paster and not part of the group:
ynybevyn.jpg
 
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Lowlight said:
[MENTION=50008]redirt78[/MENTION]

Hate to break it too you, the temperature is not effecting your 100 yard zero.

The conditions don't have time to act on the bullet to "change" things enough, more than likely you have a problem where you don't have consistent system. Scope, bedding, etc... it's not the conditions.

I zeroed my AX in CO at 7500ft DA loaded it in a case, flew to Oregon with 1000ft DA and my zero was the same, when I checked zero it was dead nuts perfect. Ammo was different lot, I had it dropped shipped, but zeroed from the "same kind", used a suppressor, etc.

You have an issue if your zero wanders ...
Click to expand...

Frank, Hey, what are your thoughts and experiences with lighting conditions? Such as let's say a low and bright early morning light from either 3/9 vs an afternoon high light from above when doing a cb/ccb? I need to print this out !

Mark
 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

Two different days, cold clean bore plus two follow up shots.
75F@ 2850fps:
ve3ahy9e.jpg

50F@2835fps:
azevuma3.jpg

CCB is at five o'clock in both groups. Now I know that my zero needs to be adjusted .1 Mil up.

Lighting conditions do not affect your zero.
 
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Cold dirty bore and two follow-up shots at 100m this morning, AW 7-08:
azytuby5.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
 
I printed one today and started the process. Put the laminated target in my case and over the next couple months I should get to the range five times.
I was not in the black for the first 5 shots, but close and hopfully will improve.
Troy
 
Graham said:
Clean cold bore and two follow up shots at 100m. Went from BN DTACs to naked DTACs, fouled bore to clean bore, 75F to 50F and here is the result, 3rds, first shot on the right. The top shot at one o'clock is covered by the paster and not part of the group:
ynybevyn.jpg
Click to expand...

Graham is so good, he can shoot the cardboard behind the target and not even pierce the target!
haha good shooting Graham!
 
Here's my first attempt at analyzing cold bore (& cold shooter) performance. All shots were factory Federal GMM 168 in a GAP Crusader .308, prone with Harris bipod and rear TAB squeeze bag:



Day 1 -- Normal (for me) clean bore. Bore cleaned with wet patches only -- no brushes. I had not shot a rifle in a couple of months, as sporting clays competition (using a Browning over/under) had consumed my spare time. I shot adequately after the cold bore, but not great. Virtually no wind during the cold bore.

Day 2 -- Fouled bore. Variable 7-10 mph breezes from 4-5 o'clock during the cold bore. I felt my zero was a bit low, and thus took my zero up one click (1/4 MOA) at the end of the day, in preparation for the next day. I did not hold for wind (i.e. POA at center of target).

Day 3 -- Normally cleaned bore, wet patches only. Variable 6-10 mph breezes from 3-4 o'clock during the cold bore. Elevation is better now. I did not hold for wind (i.e. POA at center of target).

Day 4 -- Foulded bore. Calm conditions during the day.

Day 5 -- I thoroughly cleaned the bore prior to this day -- lots of brushing, numerous patches. The bore was as clean as it has been in many moons. No traces of copper fouling was found during the cleaning of this Bartlein barrel. I still am uncertain whether the high shot #1 is from an uber clean bore or bad technique. The high and left shot #2 was due to my yanking the shot. I felt I broke shot #3 perfectly. Once I finally settled down technique-wise, I shot well this day.

I am uncertain whether the high shots with the very clean bore on Day 5 were due to my stupidity with the trigger or clean bore issues. I suspect it's more me than the rifle bore. I intend to try this again -- maybe at 200 yards instead of 100. IMO, the POI variability on days 1 through 4 were due to "cold shooter" issues and wind, not cold bore.
 
Thanks [MENTION=7]Lowlight[/MENTION] for putting us up to this, it's a great exercise. My 1st attempt below. Some great shooters have posted their results thus far and mine are not of that 'caliber' (I'm 6.5mm:p), but you have to post your score good or bad.
cold%20bore.jpg


I note that the cleaning was after the first 274 rounds through this barrel and didn't make much difference. The day two and three are all on me, still within the 1" goal but not as tight as I'd like. I thought the suppressor lowered my POI by .9 mils and though that's what I dialed it looks like it was too much. I did dial .1 mil bullet left for day five, I figured day two three and four were me as I've been working on my recoil management, but 1 tenth couldn't hurt.

Nice shooting [MENTION=61697]ropegun[/MENTION].
 
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SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

Switched scopes, then shot a cold bore and a follow-up shot before re-zeroing the new scope on the rifle:
ysedezy6.jpg
 
My cold bore shot is hitting 42mm low of the center while the second through fifth shots are hitting dead on. I am shooting an AI model AE in a 308. It has 100 or so rounds down the barrel. Any thoughts on the low cold bore shot? I am on day 2 of the challenge so it will be interesting to see if it stays consistently low. Day one was clean and day two was fouled, but they were the same distance down. How do you adjust for that at further distance? I am shooting at 100 yds with federal 175 smk's.
 
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What do u guys think would happen if u reloaded a new batch of ammo in different brass? Same powder and seating depth and load, but a different batch of brass reloaded at a different time
 
secondofangle said:
What do u guys think would happen if u reloaded a new batch of ammo in different brass? Same powder and seating depth and load, but a different batch of brass reloaded at a different time
Click to expand...
The sun would rise again the next morning.
 
secondofangle said:
What do u guys think would happen if u reloaded a new batch of ammo in different brass? Same powder and seating depth and load, but a different batch of brass reloaded at a different time
Click to expand...

I'd have to say for the rifle I shot the challenge with that if I replaced my Lapua brass with Winchester brass and kept everything else the same the point of impact would be different, as well as group size.
 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

DanSavage said:
I'd have to say for the rifle I shot the challenge with that if I replaced my Lapua brass with Winchester brass and kept everything else the same the point of impact would be different, as well as group size.
Click to expand...
It depends on the brass. Lapua case capacity runs smaller than Winchester, so with the same powder charge there will be a pressure/velocity increase. Or, in your case, a velocity decrease.

But it won't matter much to your POI at 100 yards.
 
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Lowlight said:
@redirt78

Hate to break it too you, the temperature is not effecting your 100 yard zero.

The conditions don't have time to act on the bullet to "change" things enough, more than likely you have a problem where you don't have consistent system. Scope, bedding, etc... it's not the conditions.

I zeroed my AX in CO at 7500ft DA loaded it in a case, flew to Oregon with 1000ft DA and my zero was the same, when I checked zero it was dead nuts perfect. Ammo was different lot, I had it dropped shipped, but zeroed from the "same kind", used a suppressor, etc.

You have an issue if your zero wanders ...
Click to expand...

I observed a .3 mil drop going from 48 degrees to 17 degrees at 107yds out of my front door, but it it's was 2000mr which is a bit temp sensitive.
 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

InkedIan said:
I observed a .3 mil drop going from 48 degrees to 17 degrees at 107yds out of my front door, but it it's was 2000mr which is a bit temp sensitive.
Click to expand...
That would be ammo temp, not outside temp. Try it with a warm rifle and warm ammo, then leave the rifle and ammo outside and try it again with a cold rifle and cold ammo.
 
Graham said:
That would be ammo temp, not outside temp. Try it with a warm rifle and warm ammo, then leave the rifle and ammo outside and try it again with a cold rifle and cold ammo.
Click to expand...

I realize that which is why I mentioned the powder.... He said temp wouldn't effect 100yd zero, but it can depending on the situation....
 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

InkedIan said:
I realize that which is why I mentioned the powder.... He said temp wouldn't effect 100yd zero, but it can depending on the situation....
Click to expand...
The situation is not what controls.

Frank meant that temperature as an environmental factor is not relevant at short distances; that people often misunderstand the effect of ammo temp to be the effect of outside temperature.

Because, what is the difference in POI on a 308 trajectory between 96 and 106 yards?
 
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Graham said:
The situation is not what controls.

Frank meant that temperature as an environmental factor is not relevant at short distances; that people often misunderstand the effect of ammo temp to be the effect of outside temperature.

Because, what is the difference in POI on a 308 trajectory between 96 and 106 yards?
Click to expand...

May be what he meant but it's not what he said.... Yes, the situation can dictate because if you zero your rifle on a 40 degree day and your ammo has been exposed to that enviroment it's going to be close to the same temp if you been out there for awhile then say you go hunting or go shoot a match soon after and there's a 30 degree drop you can experience a zero shift if your ammo temp experiences the same temp drop. This from personal experience not second hand information.
 
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This has nothing to do with the facts it's about me. He posted several times he doesn't like me personally,

@InkedIan has a personal issue with me and he is looking to prove me wrong... But let's look at the facts. He proved nothing.

It could have been his additional clothes added more to his LOP and threw his cheek weld off. He didn't rule out operator error, I mean look at his position in his avatar.

This is easy to show, running the numbers in a ballistic problem, the offset at 100 yards with zero conditions at 50 degrees and the current conditions at 15 degrees shows .01 mils.

A minute at 100 yards for a 30 degree change is huge. It's easily disproven, but it's more about his attack on me than what is really happening.
 

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Lowlight said:
This has nothing to do with the facts it's about me. He posted several times he doesn't like me personally,

@InkedIan has a personal issue with me and he is looking to prove me wrong... But let's look at the facts. He proved nothing.

It could have been his additional clothes added more to his LOP and threw his cheek weld off. He didn't rule out operator error, I mean look at his position in his avatar.

This is easy to show, running the numbers in a ballistic problem, the offset at 100 yards with zero conditions at 50 degrees and the current conditions at 15 degrees shows .01 mils.

A minute at 100 yards for a 30 degree change is huge. It's easily disproven, but it's more about his attack on me than what is really happening.
Click to expand...

I have nothing against you personally just the way you attack people instead of help them. The info you just provided is mildly pointless because it only takes external ballistics into account... Depending on the type of powder and primers used temp can affect the velocity of the load also the temp of your rifle barrel can change POI(Thats why they call it cold bore shot......)
 
SH ColdBore Challenge ! Test yourself...

Here we don't define 'expert' as a man from out of town - regardless of whether he carries a briefcase.

I'm thinking that temperature probably affects velocity regardless of the type of primer used...

And 'cold bore' does not refer to a cold temperature barrel that 'can' change its point of impact when warm. If your point of impact wanders after the first shot you have a rifle problem.
 
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Also, my shooting position.... Really...? You should know bringing your strong side leg forward brings most of the torso off the ground to minimize the effects the breathing and puts less pressure on the arm that controls you trigger finger. Widely used in many types prone shooting.
 
I haven't attacked anyone and you're wrong on several levels.

It's been demonstrated on numerous occasions, a Cold Bore, is not a cold bore because it is cold... if that was the case, the bullets would always walk.

Clearly you are not paying attention to this thread and the guys posting cold bore shots with no shift what so ever between shots.

And I have demonstrated on video leaving the bullets out in the sun, running them over a 100 degrees, and nothing changed at 100 yards.

Been there, done this, several times. I have been doing this for a very long time. And I always provide information, you're perception of me attacking people is alway in response to people attacking me and not the message. You can easily see people who are honest agree with me during these debates.

So, Raise your hand if you think I was talking about internal ballistics ?

But for you, so you don't have to go to YouTube and find it,
Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 2.42.17 PM.jpgScreen Shot 2014-01-12 at 2.42.43 PM.jpg

Your assumptions are wrong, and your single experience doesn't make it so... to move the bullet an 1" @ 100 you need a helluva lot more than 30 degrees, trust me.

if this was the case, you would be moving your zero constantly. If you are, you have a mechanical problem.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3UZ-mApuUoM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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