This thread has gone to shit
- Thread starter BigTex
- Start date
Yeah, but who didn't see this one coming.
Larue makes a decent product, by no means substandard but they are far from the only quality product on the market. I find it hilarious how worked up some people get over this brand vs. that brand.
The same person ruined my thread on the LWRC SPR. I believe in free speech but this is getting out of hand. :-(
A big +1 on the above.
I know I'm new here, but +1. That guy is way out of line.
On another note, I think I'm cancelling my tOBR and ordering a GAP10. Just seems like a better precision weapon from a company that cares about its customers. The Larue might be prettier, but the GAP is better in bed and has a personality to boot.
You'll be more than happy with the GAP-10. I've got one and it's a half inch or better gun. I would recommend going with a shorter barrel, like 18" or so. I've got a 22" and it's a heavy beast.
You should look at JP as well. It's probably just as good of a gun and there's only a few weeks of waiting.
You should look at JP as well. It's probably just as good of a gun and there's only a few weeks of waiting.
Im going to play devil’s advocate for the guy you spoke to on the phone, I’m sure I will get slammed for it but here it goes. I have worked in the customer service industry for 9 years now, and that gentleman that you spoke with on the phone Im sure for the past year has been taking every phone call that has consisted of “where is my rifle at,” “what do you mean that you don’t have an ETA,” ext and so forth and Im sure almost all of them have been very rude customers because the guy couldn’t give them a better answer than “I don’t know.” Now he is the guy answering the phones, not building the rifles, he only has the power to pick the phone up, not change how the company works.
Now I am in no way saying that you were rude to the guy on the phone and I am also not saying it gives him an excuse to be rude and hang up on you, but sometimes the guy who is used as a punching bag can only take so much….end rant
I own a Larue OBR, I also have another OBR on order, I have had several interactions with Larue, all were pleasant. I also own several of their mounts and they work just fine for me. As someone who works in the CS industry I felt that they were about as polite and professional as they could possibly be, but I also realize that my few interactions compared to the thousands that others have had doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for improvement. Just my 2 cents.
Now I am in no way saying that you were rude to the guy on the phone and I am also not saying it gives him an excuse to be rude and hang up on you, but sometimes the guy who is used as a punching bag can only take so much….end rant
I own a Larue OBR, I also have another OBR on order, I have had several interactions with Larue, all were pleasant. I also own several of their mounts and they work just fine for me. As someone who works in the CS industry I felt that they were about as polite and professional as they could possibly be, but I also realize that my few interactions compared to the thousands that others have had doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for improvement. Just my 2 cents.
It is their job to awsner the phones, be polite and help the customer out. If they cannot handle that aspect of the job, they need to seek other employment. They need to stop being bitches and act like professionals. They are going to end up losing even more long time, loyal customers than they already have.
Larue is the one that is causing all this shit to happen anyway. If they would stop holding people hostage and/or give them some info or atleast make good faith attemps, then people wouldn't be so angry
Larue is the one that is causing all this shit to happen anyway. If they would stop holding people hostage and/or give them some info or atleast make good faith attemps, then people wouldn't be so angry
LaRue still has my rifle. Their answer today was not acceptable, so I asked them to try a different test. Hopefully they are ok with trying it my way. I'm not the smartest guy on the planet, so I asked some smart folks for help. According to those smart guys, my tests are within what the rifle SHOULD do, so hopefully that will be the end of it.
Too bad about this thread getting derailed.
Too bad about this thread getting derailed.
So what was the issue since you never said?
Initially, the gun wouldn't get better than around a 3-4" groups. This was verified by the staff at Rifles Only. When I looked at the targets they provided to me yesterday, it appears to have a shifting POI (assuming the POA was consistent). LaRue used three shot groups. Everyone else on the earth uses five shot groups.
Each of their groups (save for one) showed sub-MOA, but the average was just barely under one MOA. They state that the rifle is within spec. I asked for 4x five-shot groups, as I think that will better represent what the rifle can do. I'm not happy with the gun because when I superimposed (digitally represented) the shots from their targets, using their ammo and their shooter and their optics under their conditions, the gun shows about a 3" grouping, which matches my original claim. I can't verify the conduct of the test, and at this point I don't even care to ask.
I got an email from Mark that stated, " The resell market is smoking hot for these rifles, as the wait is long..... we continue [to] do our darndest to maintain resell value on LaRue products." My assumption is that that's the official response to my request for 4x 5-shot groups as it's the last communication that I've received from LaRue Tactical.
Mark is concerned with his own resell value. Those are his own words. My perception of this is that he doesn't care about me being a happy customer or not. I'm not the highest dollar client that company has. Even still, I have since cancelled all orders from that company, and I will purposely dissuade folks that I care about away from that company. They aren't the only game in town and they dont provide anything that can't otherwise be gotten by a manufacturer/supplier that cares about happy customers.
How long have you had the rifle? I'm a little confused because they say "if you're not happy we're not happy." I would think if you aren't happy with the 5 shot groups your rifle is putting together you should be able to get it fixed or a refund.
I've owned this rifle since early July. I am the first and original owner. I bought it from a LaRue dealer in my area.
My repair order has been updated on the LaRue website to state that the rifle 'meets factory specification'. This lets me know that LaRue tactical will not be making any further attempts to resolve the issues I have with this rifle. That's speaks volumes to me.
lol.......Come on man you should know that saying is bullshit from the PredOBR/TOBR scandal going on. If they actually gave a shit they'd give people a actual ballpark date or at least let them know what the hold up is.
So this rifle is a tAR correct? They have always only used three shot groups for those while the OBR gets the 5 shot group as it is supposed to be the more precision geared version.
It is kind of upsetting to me.... Doesn't know what future testing protocol will be? I hope they confirm the tOBR won't be a 3 shot group, that's a damn long wait and a lot of money for not guaranteeing 5shot moa groups.
Get a refund.
If you get shitty customer service trying to buy one what do you think will happen when you send it back in.
Then pick up the phone and call for a GAP10.
At least there you'll get a accuracy guarantee and good customer service without the bullshit.
Gap10 is cheaper, faster and take magpul mags which are now found everywhere.
If you get shitty customer service trying to buy one what do you think will happen when you send it back in.
Then pick up the phone and call for a GAP10.
At least there you'll get a accuracy guarantee and good customer service without the bullshit.
Gap10 is cheaper, faster and take magpul mags which are now found everywhere.
I got the same response when I sent in my ACOG scope mount. "Everything is fine here, nothing we can do for you". I sold it. I LOVE my GA Precision rifle. And I know that George and friends will fix it is something goes wrong. I would recommend a GAP-10 based on all of the things I have heard on this forum and witnessing their accuracy first hand at the last rifle competition.
They could have easily shot 8x 5-shot groups with the amount of ammo that was used on their tests. Their standard testing isn't fooling me. Mark LaRue's name is on the side of the building so he gets to determine the testing procedures. I am free to agree or disagree, however.
At this point I am just going to get out of this rifle without losing too much.
I'm trying to keep it on track, sorta.
They have not been very personable when I call. My experience is that they have been very reactive about their jobs. I have to call them to get any answers. Here's what I mean:
When my rifle got back to LaRue, it was test fired the same day. The dates on their targets tell me that. They didn't call me back that day, though. Not even the next day. Or the next. Nothing heard until I called AND emailed a week later. Then the response is very short and un detailed. I called and asked for clarification and got the guy I talked to had to talk to the folks he answers to. The next morning I got the email from Mark LaRue stating that he had already spent a lot of money on high dollar ammo trying to replicate the problems on this rifle, and that I should sell it.
I have my own honest thoughts about this whole process, but I'll reserve them for later.
I wish larue would just sell stripped PredatAR uppers and handguard in both .308 and 5.56. I think they are some of the nicest handguards on the market, and would have no problem sending them off to MSTN, Gap, or other to strap on a top tier barrel. I have cancelled my tobr order as I wanted the PredatAR w/ OBR barrel not this transformer thing...
The bold should tell you everything you need to know about ML. :/
All it takes is once to lose the trust and respect of another man. Mr. LaRue has shown me his own true colors.
I guess I'm not quite understanding the issue here. It is my understanding that the OBR's (with rare exceptions) are sent out with a 5 shot target that must be under 1 moa, or they don't go out. The OBR's have a heavier barrel and is their more precision/battle oriented product.
The PredaTAR has a much lighter pencil barrel to make it convenient for hunting or carrying or whatever. It is my understanding that the lighter barrel represents an accuracy compromise because it will heat up quicker causing the groups to spread. It therefor seems logical to only guarantee a 3 shot 1 moa factory spec, ostensibly because if one needed greater accuracy they would recognize that the heavier barreled OBR would need to be the compromise. The gun was sent in, they were able to reproduce their stated factory spec. You're now upset that they were not able to produce the OBR spec with your PredaTAR?
The poor customer service thing I get being frustrated over. I used to work in CS, did an excellent job, and expect the same of any CS that I call. You did however get an email from the president of the company, who is likely up to his eye balls dealing with the PredatOBR/barrel debacle yet took the time to respond as if he was a customer service rep. He stated that he was unable to replicate the problem you were having and gave you the silver lining that you'll likely make more money for the rifle selling than you originally paid for it, if you're not happy. Resell value is something that any good company would want to protect, and vaunt. Ever heard a sales pitch at a Honda dealer?
I'm really not trying to be contrary here, I guess I'm just not seeing the issue here. The wait time issue/lack of info and bad CS I get. What am I missing?
So you think a Pencil barrel gets warm enough to shift after even 5 shots? I'll default to the smiths on here if they want to comment one way or another about it, but it seems odd to me.
Hell he had the crew at RO say they don't think thats right. Seriously what more do you need.
Hell he had the crew at RO say they don't think thats right. Seriously what more do you need.
I really don't know. I remember reading that the pencil barrel will spread with heat; whether that is after 3 shots or 30 shots I don't know, but if you could expect the same accuracy out of a light barrel that you can out of a heavy one there aren't a lot of reasons that you'd opt for the heavy. (Barrel life?) I do not know the crew at RO, but unless you're suggesting some sort of dishonesty out of the crew at Larue who found his rifle within stated factory spec, I would put the same question forward. What more do you need? If it was your company, and you sold a product to a certain spec, had that product returned to you and then were able to reproduce your stated spec, what else would you do? (besides offer better customer service etc, ain't defending bitchy CS.)
*Shrugs* There's history with Mark that says its always someone else's fault. And its sad that it has taken this bullshit with the Pred/T/OBR to get the people who aren't true cult larue to realize it.
Groups spreading I can understand. It's a lightweight barrel.
Groups that have different POIs with a consistent POA is not acceptable. It indicates a rifle that won't hold zero. Specifically, the three-shot groups provided by LaRue have inconsistent points of impact.
Ok, I get that. What you're suggesting then is that if Larue tested using a single 20 (4x 5 shots) shot group that it should still be 1 moa? 20 shots into less than a 1" circle? This is an honest question: how many semi-auto rifles can do that? I've seen the '1 moa all day long' that Ellfster does. Can the people that shoot 6 groups of 5 shots superimpose those 30 shots on each other and get less than 1 moa? I'm genuinely curious to know this. Is that the standard for a really accurate rifle, and how often is that standard actually met by 'mere mortal' shooters? Then add back the pencil barrel. Is that a standard that is reasonable to expect out of a light weight barrel? Was that part of the LaRue spec on the PredaTAR? Can other pencil barrels achieve such a standard? All these questions are genuine, not trying to be rhetorical or a smart ass.
*edit* Just re-read my own post, and of course rifles need to be able to stay at zero in terms of POI. Guess the question is, is that also expected out of a light weight barrel? I assume the idea is that any 3 shot 1 moa standard, is a dis-ingenious standard because a single 3 shot group won't necessarily show a moving POI. You expected that that standard assumed the ability to hold POI, and feel mislead, and that your concerns about it not holding POI were ignored. Mmmmk. I get it.
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Yeah I've seen that on this board. It's a shame he seems to have created so much ill will among his possible customers. I wonder what the wait for his rifles would be like if everyone loved the guy. Seems like despite his 'PR' challenges he has more orders than he can handle. That may not always be the case, I know a lot of people are wavering right now, and I'm one of them. (have one on order, thinking about something else.)
I'd wager more than a few of those orders are panic orders. But ya he's got a strong following.
I should see 4x five-shot groups on different targets that have a similar POI. A rifle is just a stupid machine. Mechanically, it will do the exact same thing every time. If they open up, they open up, but I shouldn't see a 1-MOA group here, then another 1-MOA group over there, which is what the targets show.
I don't know how to put anymore emphasis on the following concept: my concern is NOT that the groups open up due to overheating, as each group hovers around 1-moa. Its clear that after over 40 rounds the gun still shoots 1-moa. My concern is that the three-shot groups are NOT consistent in their POI, assuming their tester used the same POA. If a gun can shoot 18x 1-MOA groups in a row, then why can't they be centered around the same damn POI?
Maybe I should unleash the fury and just put it all in CAPS? LoL.....
I can't answer the rest of the questions because I don't have experience with other pencil-barreled rifles.
I'll say it again because I didn't put enough emphasis on it before(<---sarcasm), the gun has nice groups, they just aren't consistent (<---not sarcasm).
I was answering during your edit.... I think you and I are on the same sheet of music here... Go team!
I own one. It's pretty close to 1-MOA with a 16" CL barrel. I'm trying to find a 20" .260 Rem barrel.
Wow, after reading this thread, I feel so much better that I canceled my Larue order sometime ago (6 months ago) and then bought two JP LRP-07 and a GAP10 that is another 2 months out.
I won't be ordering from them again. Especially not when there are alternatives.
I would really like to see pics of these targets, both yours and larues. I am troubled deeply by this post. Feel free to pm me if you feel that is necessary. How far off are the poi for each group? Pics please...
J
J
I was also thinking about getting an OBR but with that kind of an I don't give a S%%T about my customers Mark Larue is rilfes and his mounts are persona non grata.
Sorry jaycoux, I PM'd you about this.
I've officially cancelled my last order with LaRue. After they sent the check, they removed the order from my account on their website. Now, it looks like I've never made the order in the first place. Good thing I have my receipts from when I took posession of the lower.
Well.... I guess that ends my chapter with that company, officially.
It's not much, but it's an update.
"Are you one of the many folks patiently waiting on your LaRue Rifle ?
If so, first and foremost, I implore you to please accept our apologies ... every hour, it seemed as if we were an hour from completion ... hours turned to days, days to weeks, weeks to months, etc.
Truth is, making a barrel that lives up to our reputation is tougher than it looks. Anyhow, as of this moment, we're still not quite where we want to be. Even state-of-the-art barrel-making equipment needs tweaking in order to ensure match-grade barrels - and yep, we're still tweaking.
In the meantime, we are awash in Field Grade quality barrels. So, to get rifles out into long-awaited folks' hands, we are going to offer to send rifles with a Field Grade barrel on it. These Stainless-Steel barrels are nothing to look down upon, but they’re just not on par with the ones we’ll be producing soon. Consider the Field Grade barrel as a "beater" barrel to use and abuse. The rifle will ship with a coupon for a no-cost follow-on Match-Grade barrel that we'll send out once we're satisfied with our setup.
Be advised, But you don't have to take us up on this offer. You may stay in line if you wish.
Please do not call us, Juli will be calling you shortly ... starting today.
Thanks,
Mark LaRue"
"Are you one of the many folks patiently waiting on your LaRue Rifle ?
If so, first and foremost, I implore you to please accept our apologies ... every hour, it seemed as if we were an hour from completion ... hours turned to days, days to weeks, weeks to months, etc.
Truth is, making a barrel that lives up to our reputation is tougher than it looks. Anyhow, as of this moment, we're still not quite where we want to be. Even state-of-the-art barrel-making equipment needs tweaking in order to ensure match-grade barrels - and yep, we're still tweaking.
In the meantime, we are awash in Field Grade quality barrels. So, to get rifles out into long-awaited folks' hands, we are going to offer to send rifles with a Field Grade barrel on it. These Stainless-Steel barrels are nothing to look down upon, but they’re just not on par with the ones we’ll be producing soon. Consider the Field Grade barrel as a "beater" barrel to use and abuse. The rifle will ship with a coupon for a no-cost follow-on Match-Grade barrel that we'll send out once we're satisfied with our setup.
Be advised, But you don't have to take us up on this offer. You may stay in line if you wish.
Please do not call us, Juli will be calling you shortly ... starting today.
Thanks,
Mark LaRue"
I think I'll just have it barreled with a Bartlein when I get it and not send it or any more of my money to LaRue. It will cost me more in the long run, but I've learned my lesson about LaRue Tactical.
This is an update, but $3500 for a rifle with a shitty "field grade" barrel made by an inexperienced barrel maker on it is unacceptable.
This is an update, but $3500 for a rifle with a shitty "field grade" barrel made by an inexperienced barrel maker on it is unacceptable.
That shat is unacceptable. ill be cancelling my order and getting a GAP or JP. (probably both)
Yes totally.. When you place an order online there is a hold on a credit card, but the amount isnt charged until the item ships.
Not to offend anyone but without hearing the conversation (from both sides) we are all at the word of those with bad experiences. I have also been in the CS industry and obviously everyone strives for excellent customer service but after awhile you have to admit we are human, and we make mistakes. Hanging up on a customer isn't acceptable but what if the guy was yelling and screaming and telling him to go screw himself 5 ways to Sunday - does said CS rep need to stay on the line? At the end of the day some would say yes, some maybe no. Try to do that in a department store, restaurant, or business and you might find yourself outside the building.
I personally saw two of my orders separated by a ridiculous spread of order numbers from the great panic of 2012. No ETA, Still waiting.. :\ No biggie.
+1
That doesn't seem like an issue to me - why do they need to keep your order in your profile? Did you call them about it?
Maybe its me but I have always had fantastic experiences with LaRue. Seeing messages like that from the Owner is always a plus.
I can't wait to see how these "Field Grade" barrels shoot. Makes ya wonder are these test barrels because they just don't seem to be able to turn out good barrels? Or is it they saw the shitstorm was brewing, knew they weren't gonna get anything done this year, and bought a shitload of shitty barrels for whatever reason.
I wish I could find that quote from Mark about him saying it was cake to make a Barrel. "Drill a hole in it, throw some squiggly lines" lol.
I wish I could find that quote from Mark about him saying it was cake to make a Barrel. "Drill a hole in it, throw some squiggly lines" lol.
That doesn't seem like an issue to me - why do they need to keep your order in your profile? Did you call them about it?
Maybe its me but I have always had fantastic experiences with LaRue. Seeing messages like that from the Owner is always a plus.
It's just a curiosity to me. I can't describe why, but it's weird.
My thoughts about this letter are different. I see it as a guy trying to string folks along by giving them a little bit at a time, but never really delivering on the product.
My experience is that Mr. LaRue likes the fact that he has such a cult following. He has flat out told me that his priority is keeping the products at a high resale value, which I'm interpreting as him NOT caring about his current and future customers. His company may make some good products, but the 'cost' in that is that the loyalty of those who TRULY care won't be there (as they'll be buying something like a GAP-10).
Maybe its me but I have always had fantastic experiences with LaRue. Seeing messages like that from the Owner is always a plus.
It's just a curiosity to me. I can't describe why, but it's weird.
My thoughts about this letter are different. I see it as a guy trying to string folks along by giving them a little bit at a time, but never really delivering on the product.
My experience is that Mr. LaRue likes the fact that he has such a cult following. He has flat out told me that his priority is keeping the products at a high resale value, which I'm interpreting as him NOT caring about his current and future customers. His company may make some good products, but the 'cost' in that is that the loyalty of those who TRULY care won't be there (as they'll be buying something like a GAP-10).
[
Only problem is....mark larue didnt write that. Fingar did....
QUOTE=CaptnJack;2731231]Yes totally.. When you place an order online there is a hold on a credit card, but the amount isnt charged until the item ships.
Not to offend anyone but without hearing the conversation (from both sides) we are all at the word of those with bad experiences. I have also been in the CS industry and obviously everyone strives for excellent customer service but after awhile you have to admit we are human, and we make mistakes. Hanging up on a customer isn't acceptable but what if the guy was yelling and screaming and telling him to go screw himself 5 ways to Sunday - does said CS rep need to stay on the line? At the end of the day some would say yes, some maybe no. Try to do that in a department store, restaurant, or business and you might find yourself outside the building.
I personally saw two of my orders separated by a ridiculous spread of order numbers from the great panic of 2012. No ETA, Still waiting.. :\ No biggie.
+1
That doesn't seem like an issue to me - why do they need to keep your order in your profile? Did you call them about it?
Maybe its me but I have always had fantastic experiences with LaRue. Seeing messages like that from the Owner is always a plus.[/QUOTE]
Only problem is....mark larue didnt write that. Fingar did....
QUOTE=CaptnJack;2731231]Yes totally.. When you place an order online there is a hold on a credit card, but the amount isnt charged until the item ships.
Not to offend anyone but without hearing the conversation (from both sides) we are all at the word of those with bad experiences. I have also been in the CS industry and obviously everyone strives for excellent customer service but after awhile you have to admit we are human, and we make mistakes. Hanging up on a customer isn't acceptable but what if the guy was yelling and screaming and telling him to go screw himself 5 ways to Sunday - does said CS rep need to stay on the line? At the end of the day some would say yes, some maybe no. Try to do that in a department store, restaurant, or business and you might find yourself outside the building.
I personally saw two of my orders separated by a ridiculous spread of order numbers from the great panic of 2012. No ETA, Still waiting.. :\ No biggie.
+1
That doesn't seem like an issue to me - why do they need to keep your order in your profile? Did you call them about it?
Maybe its me but I have always had fantastic experiences with LaRue. Seeing messages like that from the Owner is always a plus.[/QUOTE]
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