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52gr SMK's blowing up mid air at 10y

Ring

Rifle Instructor
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 12, 2009
2,323
10
Medina, Ohio
sites.google.com
out of a 223, 1/7, 16"
same gun ive shot thin skinned 50gr TNT's just fine...


shot a match today, was using FMJ for 90%, last stage, i went to the SMK's that had loaded for my 1/8 20" that shoot great...

at 30y, not 1 SMK hit the IPSC target, just some jacket fragments.. RO watching said it looked like i was shooting tracers... he saw a "smoke trail" leave the gun, and a poof 1/2 to target...

:(

emailing Sierra now
 
Yep, I hate when that happens, it is cool to watch but sucks and blows at the same time during a match.
 
Overstaibalization. Use 77gr SMKs, this is entirely your fault not Sierras.


no , the 52 were made for the 200-300y match shooting... out of 20" guns....
im shooting a lower FPS out of a 16" gun...

UNLIKE the TNT, there is no warning on the box, saying "do not exceed X FPS" or do not use in X twist
 
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If you chronoed it i bet that bullet flying 3500:).
I use those bullet with varget on sako 75 varmint 1:12 twist abd already 3200 i cant imagine on 1:7
 
no , the 52 were made for the 200-300y match shooting... out of 20" guns....
im shooting a lower FPS out of a 16" gun...

UNLIKE the TNT, there is no warning on the box, saying "do not exceed X FPS" or do not use in X twist

From Sierra's website, Quote: For rifles, the 52 grain #1410 bullet offers the shooter all the advantages of a boat tail design for 200 to 300 yard competition. The #1410 is appropriate for rifles with 1x12" or 1x14" twist rates. https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1410/224-dia-52-gr-HPBT-MatchKing

Meaning they are not appropriate for rifles with a 1-7" twist........It's the twist rate, not the velocity per say that breaks these bullets apart.
 
saying something is good for something is not saying dont use it in another... if so, it would say "not for use in X twist"

like the 77's "Please Note!! This bullet requires a 1x7" to 1x8" twist barrel."

or this
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1100/223-dia-40-gr-Hornet

223 Remington, for target and varmint shooting at muzzle velocities up to 3500 fps.
 
Ring,

You can get indignant all you want, but it's pretty clear to me exactly what Sierra meant. Just to give you an example @ 3000 FPS in a 1-12 twist barrel the RPM of the bullet is 180,000 RPM. In a 1-8 twist like your 20" barrel it's 270,000 RPM. In a 1-7 twist barrel like your 16" it's a whopping 308,000 RPM. That's a 71% increase in RPM over a 1-12" twist. Again what's making your bullets blow up is the fast twist rate, not the velocity your shooting them at.

You could shoot these same bullets @ 3500 FPS in a 1-12 or 1-14 twist barrel from a 22-250 and have no problem at all. But stuff them into a 5.56mm 1-7 twist barrel, @ 3000 FPS+ and you get a blue smoker....

As a "Rifle Instructor" you should know better, and you should know the affects of twist, (both over twisted and under twisted) on bullets. You didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, you been around Ring.

References: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/
 
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i know exactly what's causing it, my point is if that is a known problem and sierra knows it, that it should be printed on the box...

if not, then thats their fail as a company... you know, like when you buy a box of hornady's and it says "for use in xxx"
 
Houston we have a problem, we've had a blowup, either the manual is wrong or our reloading engineers are wrong.

This isn't a rubber o-ring problem on the shuttle booster Houston, someone should call Sierra and see who is right.

I gots to know the answer, I have 1 in 9, 1 in 8 and 1 in 7 twist barrels and my 52 grain SMK are "NOT" blowing up.

52SMK_zpsf8b283d7.jpg


223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

Pagesfromsierra223ar-2_zps8e9b2aad.jpg


Pagesfromsierra223ar_zps2b224aed.jpg
 
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Ring,

You've got a rifle problem there, not a bullet problem. The 52s-53s will shoot just fine out of fast twist rifles, no problem at all. That is, assuming there's no roughness or other issues within the barrel that create problems like this. You might resolve it with a good cleaning and some J-B bore paste, or there may be enough erosion in the throat area that you just can't use the lighter bullets in this rifle anymore. The jackets are the same as those used in the 77s, what they call their standard High Velocity jackets, as opposed to the thinner jackets used on BlitzKings, or the even thinner jackets used in the Hornet bullets. The draw for the 77-80 grain bullets are a bit longer, but the wall thicknesses are the same. I've seen a lot of this sort of thing, including those loads using heavier bullets like the 75s, and it almost always comes back to the barrels themselves. Normally it shows up in barrels that are very high mileage and have developed some erosion in the throat. At the other end, I've also seen it in some brand new barrels that obviously still had some sharp edges along the rifling. Either way, I can pretty well assure you, it's not a bullet problem. The faster twist rates may occasionally exacerbate the problem, but they'll normally handle the added rotational velocity without issue.
 
I have to agree with bigedp51 and ksthomas. I have been shooting the 52 grain SMK's out of everything from a Remington PSS 223 with a 1:9 twist and a number of AR's with 1:9, 1:8 and 1:7 twist using 26.2 grains of W748 without a single problem for over 10 years. So imo it is not the twist rate or the the 52 grain SMK's that is the problem. I also think the problem lies elsewhere.
 
i know exactly what's causing it, my point is if that is a known problem and sierra knows it, that it should be printed on the box...

if not, then thats their fail as a company... you know, like when you buy a box of hornady's and it says "for use in xxx"

I bet it's a bullet issue with that lot number and they'll end up asking you to send that lot number back and they'll send you replacement bullets, hopefully more than you have, to make up for shipping your stuff to them.

There is no mention in their manual, which I have, that that bullet 'can't' handle a 1/7" twist, so there's a manufacturing defect going on, which happens from time to time in this business.

Chris
 
i know exactly what's causing it, my point is if that is a known problem and sierra knows it, that it should be printed on the box...

if not, then thats their fail as a company... you know, like when you buy a box of hornady's and it says "for use in xxx"

It's either a defective bullet problem or a rifle problem. I shoot lots of 52smk and noslers using 26 grains of varget or tac out of 7 and 8 twists without issue.
 
Once again, it's a rifle problem, plain and simple. Those bullets will manage just fine in fast twist barrels, no problem at all. Bullets will outgas (leave the smoke trails someone mentioned earlier) and even disintegrate when there's a barrel problem, which usually relates to roughness or sharp areas within the bore. This is true even when the bullets are "appropriate" for the twist. The year before last at Camp Perry, during the Small Arms Firing School we had a tremendous problem with Horandy 75 grain Match ammo blowing up halfway to the target. The rifles were provided by the army for the school, and were pretty high mileage; rough throats, lots of rounds through them. We were seeing 20-25% of the rounds fired failing to reach the target. Often time you'd see the smoke trails, other times yo saw the little FLAK burst halfway downrange. In some cases you saw both. The USMC clinic being run over on Rodriguez Range at the same time, was using the very same ammo, but with new rifles the USMC provided. They didn't have a bit of trouble with the ammo. This past year, RRA provided new rifles for the school, and Horandy again provided the same ammo. Not a single problem, anywhere, with bullets breaking up.

During the development of the BlitzKings (which actually DO have a thinner jacket), I ran some of them up to some ungodly velocities in a 22 CHeetah, 4,400-4,500 fps as I recall, and they still held together at better than 90-95%. Takes a lot to spin a bullet apart, unless the bore's a bit rough. Doesn't always take too much, but once you start to see it, you're there. Drop velocity, or stick to the heavier bullets and you've probably still got a good bit of usable life out of that barrel. But I can pretty well assure you, it's not a bullet problem.
 
Either your FPS is WAY too high or your Twist rate is WAY too fast for those particular bullets. Or both.

MFGs bullets are not the same. Say Winchester makes a 52gr and it works fine in a 1x7 but Bergers makes a 52 as we'll but it blows up. Some companies have thicker jackets thinner jackets better design ect.

Again I'm assuming your probably shooting com a 1x7/1x9 twist when they are rated for 1:12 or 1:14 twists, overstabilizing to hell.
 
Once again, it's a rifle problem, plain and simple. Those bullets will manage just fine in fast twist barrels, no problem at all. Bullets will outgas (leave the smoke trails someone mentioned earlier) and even disintegrate when there's a barrel problem, which usually relates to roughness or sharp areas within the bore. This is true even when the bullets are "appropriate" for the twist. The year before last at Camp Perry, during the Small Arms Firing School we had a tremendous problem with Horandy 75 grain Match ammo blowing up halfway to the target. The rifles were provided by the army for the school, and were pretty high mileage; rough throats, lots of rounds through them. We were seeing 20-25% of the rounds fired failing to reach the target. Often time you'd see the smoke trails, other times yo saw the little FLAK burst halfway downrange. In some cases you saw both. The USMC clinic being run over on Rodriguez Range at the same time, was using the very same ammo, but with new rifles the USMC provided. They didn't have a bit of trouble with the ammo. This past year, RRA provided new rifles for the school, and Horandy again provided the same ammo. Not a single problem, anywhere, with bullets breaking up.

During the development of the BlitzKings (which actually DO have a thinner jacket), I ran some of them up to some ungodly velocities in a 22 CHeetah, 4,400-4,500 fps as I recall, and they still held together at better than 90-95%. Takes a lot to spin a bullet apart, unless the bore's a bit rough. Doesn't always take too much, but once you start to see it, you're there. Drop velocity, or stick to the heavier bullets and you've probably still got a good bit of usable life out of that barrel. But I can pretty well assure you, it's not a bullet problem.

I agree with Kevin you have a barrel issue. It's not twist or velocity. Just for the hell of it take a couple of shoots at a target 5-10yds. away and look at the bullet holes. Pictures would be nice.
 
bigedp51 hit the nail on the head

Actually I just brought the nails and Kevin Thomas pounded them home and "finished" the project, what a few people need to do is "READ" Mr.Thomas signature block and "LISTEN" to the voice of experience.

Again I have two very low mileage AR15s and a Savage .223 and "DO NOT" have a problem shooting any 52 grain bullets. And Kevin Thomas gave a very good explanation of "WHY" the Op is having a problem.

My personal advice would be to clean the AR15 with foam bore cleaner until no more blue is on the patch and then scrub the bore with J&B Bore paste as Kevin Thomas recommended paying attention to the throat area.

Some of you might remember this TV commercial, "When E. F. Hutton talks, people listen" and Team Lupua doesn't hire dummies to be on their shooting team.
 
Guys litle off topic for the 52smk.
How far can i shoot it accurately in 1:12 sako 75 varmint 24"..with what powder?
 
Guys litle off topic for the 52smk.
How far can i shoot it accurately in 1:12 sako 75 varmint 24"..with what powder?

300 for varmints no problem. They can fly all the way to 600 fairly accurately but the wind will really grab them.

A buddy of mine uses them with 24.3 varget out of a 16" bull and I use them out of a 20" loaded a bit hotter neither of us have a problem hitting a 10" steel gong @ 500.
 
300 for varmints no problem. They can fly all the way to 600 fairly accurately but the wind will really grab them.

A buddy of mine uses them with 24.3 varget out of a 16" bull and I use them out of a 20" loaded a bit hotter neither of us have a problem hitting a 10" steel gong @ 500.
Ty sir.. thats great! I only use this gun for fun shooting and no plan shooting any of my 223 past 400yd..present load im using 26.5varget i went all d way to 27 very accurate easy bug hole 100yd at once i even have one holer at 200 but could not repeat ut anymore:) these were all 5shots..27gr is kinda compress powdee all the way to the top so i bring it down to 26.5...i thought i needed to rebarel this 1:12 to 1:7 just to shoot past 200:)
 
"Once again, it's a rifle problem, plain and simple."


not seeing it.... im going to say bad batch of bullets, considering, the barrel is a DD with about 500 down it, and i can shoot 50gr TNT's that have a SUPER THIN jacket at HIGHER speeds out of it with no issues
 
Just curious, what difference does the brand of barrel make, since they are ALL subject to this same phenomenon? I mentioned earlier that I've seen this happen with both new barrels where sharp edges are present, as well as older, high mileage barrels once erosion becomes a problem. I use DD products, and am a fan, but if you think their stuff isn't subject to the same realities as everyone else's . . . good luck with that.
 
Sometime over the past 35 years in this business I learned a very good lesson that serves me well to this day. When the smartest man in the rooming is talking shut up and listen.
 
Sometime over the past 35 years in this business I learned a very good lesson that serves me well to this day. When the smartest man in the rooming is talking shut up and listen.

DAVETOOLEY, you must be almost as smart and good looking as I am, :) very wise words, too bad so many other people are burning up all the oxygen in the room.
 
A question for Mr KSThomas: Assuming you are correct in where the problem lies, would lapping the barrel fix this? Hand- or fire-lapping?
 
A question for Mr KSThomas: Assuming you are correct in where the problem lies, would lapping the barrel fix this? Hand- or fire-lapping?

Not necessarily. If the rifling was damaged or chamber what ever and even if the barrel has been chrome plated in the bore the damage is most likely to the point that finish lapping it isn't going to help at all.

Seen a barrel just a couple of years ago and it was one of two makers and I don't remember which one but I won't say as it doesn't really matter. It was a 7mm WSM chamber (.270wsm necked up to 7mm) and we were at a F-class match. The shooter was shooting 180gr. Berger VLD's. The guys gun was blowing up bullets pretty regularly. Like two out of every 10 rounds fired. Someone had a hand held bore scope at the match and they asked me to look at the barrel. When I bore scoped it the rifling was damaged and mostly on the driving side of the lands. They asked me if we could take it to the shop and lap it etc....I said I was willing to try but in my opinion the damage was so significant that lapping it wasn't going to help. I told him he would be further ahead and
lets just put a new barrel on it while your here. We tried lapping it first and it didn't help. He ended up with a new barrel on the gun and guess what. Same lot of bullets and no failures!

I've shot 52gr. Hornady's Match BT bullets, 52gr. Sierra's in a .223 chamber 1-7 twist with no issues. Even ran 52gr. Hornady's in a 1-9 twist .220 Swift chamber barrel at 3900fps. No issues.

Can it be the bullets/that particular lot? Sure anything is possible but as stated before I would have the barrel looked at for a manufacturing defect or damage to the chamber or crown etc....as well.

Take the other suggestion to the original post. Take some ammo/bullets and have it shot in a different gun. If the bullets don't blow up in that gun than it's pointing towards the barrel as the most likely cause.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Thinking about it some more. If the bore of the barrel is chrome lined/plated, this could be a cause of the problem also. Poor chrome plating job weather it be from build up or poor adhesion and the chrome is flaking chipping away from the throat of the chamber etc..it's going to leave the bore rough.

If the barrel was damaged during manufacture the chrome plating isn't going to necessarily fix the problem either.

Later, Frank
 
Wow, so many genuine experts/celebrities on the Hide. I come here mostly to increase my knowledge base and I got to say that mission is accomplished and I came to the right place. IF I happen to know something that may help someone else I'll post the little bit of knowledge I may have. Thank you and everyone on here for taking the time to explain the basics to a dimwit like myself.
 
Clean the bore real well. like copper solvent in the bore overnight, scrub it good and then dry patch till spotless. I bet it will shoot the 52 SMK's just fine after that. a large build up of copper will strip a jacket which sounds like what it happening.
 
What Frank said. There's a lot of "if's" here, and there's no way any of us can answer this without actually checking the bore over with a scope. Even then, we'd all be hazarding educated guesses. Bottom line is, these things happen in some instances, and the OPs situation brought several of the likely suspects into play with one another; fast twist, heavy loads, a fairly new barrel, and (as Frank suggested) the likelihood of the barrel having been chrome lined. But I'll pretty well guarantee you, it isn't the bullets. Sierra's never had much of an issue with bullet blow ups, though it does occasionally happen. As I mentioned earlier, I've gotten them to come apart, but that was the actual point of the exercise, and I had to REALLY push them from a monster of a cartridge to get it to happen.

Back the load off a bit, or go to a heavier bullet that's more what the rifle was intended to use, and this'll most likely go away. Not a huge issue, but I'm trying to save the Sierra guys some time and keystrokes here.
 
Just about 15 years ago I re-barreled my shot-out Rem 700 Varmint in .220 Swift 1-14" twist, with a new Hart Barrel in the same Rem Varmint contour but with a 1-8" twist. I experienced bullet blowups with SMK's with the same load that I used in the old barrel, and I have believed incorrectly that it was the twist of the new barrel that caused these bullet blow-ups long ago. I never suspected that it was a poor/rough barrel, and not the over twisting of light hollow-point bullets. I was beguiled because with heavier 22 cal bullets this barrel shot superbly and I was mistaken in the belief that correlation equaled causation.

I guess I was dead wrong for the last 15 years, and which proves your never too old to learn something. Thank you to all posters for removing this misconception, and my apologies to the OP and to those over the years that I gave the wrong information too, as to the root cause of this problem.

Bob
 
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Bob, I'd be willing to be that if you could add up all of the instances where various bullet types have exploded in midair, the overall majority would be due to over-spinning bullets with thin varmint/match type jackets and not a result of a rough bore.

I remember a couple of years back, here, people having trouble with the (I think) DTACs poofing in midair and it wasn't due to having a jagged bore.

Speer even mentions this issue in their reloading manuals and with their own varmint bullets.

Chris
 
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I suspect you're thinking of Berger, as they had some serious problems with bullet blow-ups about five-six years back. They did some very extensive (and expensive) research on the topic, determined the causes, and came out with a redesign to solve the problem. The result is their new "Match" line, which was added to what then became their "Hunting" line. The differences is in the jacket thickness. Some interesting stuff came out of the study, and my hat's off to Walt, Eric and the crew for having the integrity (and shelling out the $) to actually find the cause and correct the problem.

The thinner jackets have always had their limitations, and most manufacturers have addressed those issues right up front. Be it a velocity limit warning, or something along those lines. The OP's issues, however, occurred with their standard High Velocity jackets, which will stand these velocities with no problem. Ditto for the twist, unless there's a problem.
 
Just curious, what difference does the brand of barrel make, since they are ALL subject to this same phenomenon? I mentioned earlier that I've seen this happen with both new barrels where sharp edges are present, as well as older, high mileage barrels once erosion becomes a problem. I use DD products, and am a fan, but if you think their stuff isn't subject to the same realities as everyone else's . . . good luck with that.


simple deductive reasoning...
#1 what has a thicker jacket... TNT varmit bullets or SMK match bullets?

#2.. if the problem is not happening to the thin skinned varmit bullet thats being pushed even harder, then tell me how its the barrel and not the bullet?

also, i was shooting 40gr vmax at 3400 with no issues



UPDATE FROM sierra

Okay, send me the remainder and we’ll test them for you and if they are bad we’ll replace them.
I will say this however, 100 shots through a barrel without cleaning is definitely enough to foul it to the point of bullet failure.

wow.. if 100 rounds down a gun is enough to cause your product to fail, im glad i dont buy them...
 
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UPDATE FROM sierra

Okay, send me the remainder and we’ll test them for you and if they are bad we’ll replace them.
I will say this however, 100 shots through a barrel without cleaning is definitely enough to foul it to the point of bullet failure.

That doesn't sound right. Maybe if you're smearing the bullets with grease and dipping them in metal shavings before firing them down your bore, but not at 100 rds, IMO.

Chris
 
Ring, if you come here asking for solutions, why argue with the responses?

Everything said is possible. It is completely possible to spin a bullet too fast and it's possible that a certain barrel has a defect which only manifests itself when specific components are used.

You appear to be convinced that your problem is defective bullets made by Sierra? Personally, I think you are wrong. BB
 
Apparently, the depth of your knowledge is somewhat limited? You cannot say because some "thinner skinned varmit(sic) bullet" does one thing or another, that therefore a different bullet must behave the same way. That's like saying all primers are the same or all barrels, (for that matter) are the same. Being the same; one bullet cannot blow up barrels because a different one didn't do it. In my opinion, your logic is flawed in several aspects.

You know, I once had a problem with Berger 55 grain bullets disintegrating just beyond 100 yards, which was where I did all my testing and therefore, I wasn't aware of the problem until I shot 3X at a coyote 200 yards away and he just looked at me. Anyway, I soon discovered that I was driving these .224" bullets at excessive RPM, a perfectly reasonable explanation. My particular solution was to move up to 64/65 grain and I never had another problem. But, I didn't complain to Walt about it, I figured out that it was a problem with my application of his excellent bullets. True story.

Ring, just for laughs, what (exactly) do you think could be wrong with your box of bullets that nobody else has reported or observed? They used defective jacket material, maybe? BB
 
Okay, send me the remainder and we’ll test them for you and if they are bad we’ll replace them.
I will say this however, 100 shots through a barrel without cleaning is definitely enough to foul it to the point of bullet failure.

I think he forgot a zero...or knows little about firearms and projectiles. A shooter could easily approach 100 rounds in a single HP match. Not much time to clean between positions.

I've shot 52s at 200 - 300 yard positions from a 1:7. Never lost a shot...didn't clean every 100 rounds, either.
 
How do you know that the TNT bullets have a thinner jacket? And just because it is a DD does not mean anything. You must believe the commercials that they have.
 
What happens when you slow down the bullets !50 fps. All of seirras ar 15 load data for that bullet seam to err towards 3000 fps. How hard does one really need to to punch paper to kill it.
 
how about this... in the next few days, ill take the gun to the range uncleaned since the match...
i will video and test new 52's, some "vintage" 52's "late 80's" and the TNT's

then ill load them as sub sonic to recover a shot bullet to see rifling marks
then ill cross section cut the bullets to measure jacket thickness

as for my knowledge on the subject, as i stated from the start, and confirmed by sierra, the 52 "should" be fine in a 1-7 223, i am in no way "overdriving" them past what they were built for

so, either i have a magic barrel that will shoot 40-50-53-55-60-69-75 just fine, but makes the 52 go pop, or i got a bad box...
Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Get some 52s off a buddy from a different lot number, or back off the FPS and see what happens. I played a bit with the 52s but for a little more money I just buy 69s or 77gr with way more performance. If you think it is the billet or the lot just use something different...

I'm sure Sierra assumes reloaders have a smidge of common sense and shouldn't have to post warning labels(other than required by law)on the box of their products. Furthermore, the whole reloading game is an experiment with almost infinite variables, if a test fails(like in your case) you can either throw in the towel, change a variable or blame someone else(as you did)

Good day