DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
Hey, careful there with the age discrimination! Don't forget, the older BR guys have spent a lot of their retirement money on your designs...That would be pretty cool. And I agree, the 50 yard BR guys only care about what was new 50 years ago, when most of them were in their 40s.
MB
C’mon BR guys, I’m kidding.
Just kidding back at you!
And by the way, what, in your experience and data is the optimal setup for 50 BR shooting? Is it still 16 twist?Hey, careful there with the age discrimination! Don't forget, the older BR guys have spent a lot of their retirement money on your designs...
Just kidding back at you!
Thanks,
Larry
Yo, Dude, too funny, and I appreciate your sense of humor.
Yes, 16 twist; there's not a lot to be gained from tapping into more available BC for the BR stuff. Although my nine twist does very well at 50, the BR application is dependent on other criteria that the BR folks have dialed in very tightly.
MB
If I understand the “issue” is that BC is changing as the velocity is slowing down and is critical after a certain distance (for sake of argument 150-200 yards, could be after 100 or after 250, but at some greater distance than 100) and ways to compensate for better BC (to counter air resistance and destabilization) is play with barrel twist and/or bullet shape/profile. Are there other means to alter BC or other means to help prolong the destabilization and keep as much accuracy and precision for all ranges 0-500 yards (ideally)?
Quick Update: Available to order, email to [email protected]
Springs:
Main Springs for all generations of V-22 (most probably call them firing pin springs) are available as follows:
DDG-MS15V22 15 lbf Main Spring--Green
DDG-MS16V22 16 lbf Main Spring--Orange
DDG-MS17V22 17 lbf Main Spring--Red
DDG-MS18V22 18 lbf Main Spring--Purple
DDG-MS19V22 19 lbf Main Spring--Blue
DDG-MS20V22 20 lbf Main Spring--Yellow
DDG-MS22V22 22 lbf Main Spring—No Color
Complete Main Spring Kit: all seven springs, DDG-MSK-V22: $63.00
Individual Springs, order by color code: $9.69 each
Extractor/Pusher Spring Kit--DDG-EPSK-V22: $7.00
Magazine Springs:
Legacy Nylon Mags and Gen 1 Aluminum Mags:
Five Round Aluminum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS05: $5.00
10 Round Nylon/Gen 1 Alum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS10: $8.00
15 Round Gen 1 Alum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS15: $10.00
Bolt Stop Springs will be included with the specific Bolt Stop Kits for Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 V22 Actions.
Single Screw Cocking Piece:
Gen2/Gen3 60 Deg Single Screw Cocking Piece, DDG-G2/G3-60DCP: $83.00
Next Week:
Firing Pins for Gen 2/Gen 3 Repeaters and Gen 3 Single Shot will be available to order. I'll announce when I'm opening the ordering and will provide pricing at that time.
Thank you, to this incredible community, for your support,
MB
Springs:
Main Springs for all generations of V-22 (most probably call them firing pin springs) are available as follows:
DDG-MS15V22 15 lbf Main Spring--Green
DDG-MS16V22 16 lbf Main Spring--Orange
DDG-MS17V22 17 lbf Main Spring--Red
DDG-MS18V22 18 lbf Main Spring--Purple
DDG-MS19V22 19 lbf Main Spring--Blue
DDG-MS20V22 20 lbf Main Spring--Yellow
DDG-MS22V22 22 lbf Main Spring—No Color
Complete Main Spring Kit: all seven springs, DDG-MSK-V22: $63.00
Individual Springs, order by color code: $9.69 each
Extractor/Pusher Spring Kit--DDG-EPSK-V22: $7.00
Magazine Springs:
Legacy Nylon Mags and Gen 1 Aluminum Mags:
Five Round Aluminum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS05: $5.00
10 Round Nylon/Gen 1 Alum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS10: $8.00
15 Round Gen 1 Alum Mag Spring, DDG-V22-MS15: $10.00
Bolt Stop Springs will be included with the specific Bolt Stop Kits for Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 V22 Actions.
Single Screw Cocking Piece:
Gen2/Gen3 60 Deg Single Screw Cocking Piece, DDG-G2/G3-60DCP: $83.00
Next Week:
Firing Pins for Gen 2/Gen 3 Repeaters and Gen 3 Single Shot will be available to order. I'll announce when I'm opening the ordering and will provide pricing at that time.
Thank you, to this incredible community, for your support,
MB
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The relationship between MV and POI with .22LR is not always consistent. While this isn't always clear at 50 yards, it is undeniable at twice the distance. That is to say, for a variety of potential reasons, by the point where distance is twice the usual BR distance, MV doesn't always predict POI.
When shooting at much longer distances, how consistent is the relationship between TOF and accuracy performance?
When shooting at much longer distances, how consistent is the relationship between TOF and accuracy performance?
Quick Update:
Receiver Wrenches:
All Receiver Wrenches:
DDG-RW-G1RH
DDG-RW-G1LH
DDG-RW-G2RH
DDG-RW-G2LH
DDG-RW-G3RH
DDG-RW-G3LH
Are here and everything is good to go. I'm shipping everything out tomorrow and there are plenty left in stock for those that would like to pick one or more up for your work bench.
Single Screw Cocking Pieces:
Orders are coming in and parts are shipping tomorrow.
I'll keep everyone posted in the Gen 2/Gen 3 Repeater Firing Pins, and the Gen 3 Single Shot Firing Pins. They'll land in my shop within another day or so.
All the best,
MB
Receiver Wrenches:
All Receiver Wrenches:
DDG-RW-G1RH
DDG-RW-G1LH
DDG-RW-G2RH
DDG-RW-G2LH
DDG-RW-G3RH
DDG-RW-G3LH
Are here and everything is good to go. I'm shipping everything out tomorrow and there are plenty left in stock for those that would like to pick one or more up for your work bench.
Single Screw Cocking Pieces:
Orders are coming in and parts are shipping tomorrow.
I'll keep everyone posted in the Gen 2/Gen 3 Repeater Firing Pins, and the Gen 3 Single Shot Firing Pins. They'll land in my shop within another day or so.
All the best,
MB
Mornin, Dude, you've not missed anything. The bolt stops are inbound, as are the threaded pins and I have springs on hand. I'll have the complete kits for these ready to go in another week or so.
MB
Quick Update:
Receiver Wrenches:
The backlog of Receiver Wrenches is out the door via USPS Priority, and if you ordered as recently as this morning, it's on the way to you now. I appreciate the patience as I dealt with getting an issue sorted.
Single Screw Cocking Pieces:
I'm down to less than 100 in stock; they're going fast, but I'll be issuing another PO if you're not quick enough on the email to me to get squared away.
Magazine Progress:
I'm highly pleased with how this has come together. The custom form tools have been designed and ordered, and the Swiss machines are about to turn out Thumb Buttons and the Adjustable Catch Block. The validation in the Mill/Turn has been with the V-Series 17 Round to test the clearance envelope, and the 10 round case halves are about to start. Pictures very soon.
DDG Range Test Fixture:
I've been receiving DMs and emails about the Range Test Fixture. I've held off on the launch during the summer slump and have been planning to start taking orders around mid-September. If you guys are ready for them now, I'm perfectly willing to get them in the mix sooner than later.
DBMs:
The DDG Standard M5 and M5x DBMs are in the early phases of LRIP, so, like the Range Test Fixture, I can get ahead of the curve and start Pre-Orders if there's enough interest.
All the best,
MB
Receiver Wrenches:
The backlog of Receiver Wrenches is out the door via USPS Priority, and if you ordered as recently as this morning, it's on the way to you now. I appreciate the patience as I dealt with getting an issue sorted.
Single Screw Cocking Pieces:
I'm down to less than 100 in stock; they're going fast, but I'll be issuing another PO if you're not quick enough on the email to me to get squared away.
Magazine Progress:
I'm highly pleased with how this has come together. The custom form tools have been designed and ordered, and the Swiss machines are about to turn out Thumb Buttons and the Adjustable Catch Block. The validation in the Mill/Turn has been with the V-Series 17 Round to test the clearance envelope, and the 10 round case halves are about to start. Pictures very soon.
DDG Range Test Fixture:
I've been receiving DMs and emails about the Range Test Fixture. I've held off on the launch during the summer slump and have been planning to start taking orders around mid-September. If you guys are ready for them now, I'm perfectly willing to get them in the mix sooner than later.
DBMs:
The DDG Standard M5 and M5x DBMs are in the early phases of LRIP, so, like the Range Test Fixture, I can get ahead of the curve and start Pre-Orders if there's enough interest.
All the best,
MB
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For the sake of the Pre-Order, I believe it's going to be around $415 with a bushing plate.
MB
Quick Update:
Invoices to Gmail:
Well, I'm on my third CC processor and second bookkeeping solution, but I now have no issue getting invoices to Gmail and Hotmail. Self-resolving has its merits. Thank you to everyone that reached out to make sure you'd get an invoice, and I also appreciate those that offered up suggestions for a resolution.
Main (Firing) Pin Spring Selection:
I'm getting a lot of questions about which Main Spring should be used, which is good, and I've shared my answer to this question individually, but I'm getting this question so much that I deem it necessary to share it here.
The key to proper ignition is the effective and consistent delivery of focused energy to the case rim. The energy equation is made up of the trigger, how much drag is in the particular assembly (which lube is used, surface finish, etc.) and of course spring rate.
Spring rate is more of the determining component in a spring-around-pin (SAP) fire control system. A pin-around-spring (PAS) system depends more on mass, which equates to momentum (yes, I have my personal favorite).
So, these determining factors (and there's more than I've mentioned) are the reason there's a spring kit, which is designed to accommodate the variables.
So, the only way to truly know which spring you need is to "listen to your rifle" by seeing what level of down range performance is optimal (based on your own requirements of what's "optimal') with a given spring rate.
Also, it's important to note that adding paint to the spring to identify the rate (15lbf to 20lbf) is a detriment to performance because the paint becomes part of the drag equation. The problem is, there isn't necessarily a better way to identify them, so I tell people to remove the paint to lessen the drag and increase the efficiency of the system. But again, your own definition of "optimal" should be considered if you'd rather not remove the paint.
Theres tons more to follow as all these projects move forward so stay tuned, and please keep the questions coming. It's great to hear from everyone and it's interesting because so many of you open with, "I don't want to bother you, but...." Please know that anyone reaching out with a question isn't "bothering" me at all. Most of you receive a rather immediate response and there are times I miss an email with the flurry of emails that come in, but I will take the time to answer your questions.
Thanks,
MB
Invoices to Gmail:
Well, I'm on my third CC processor and second bookkeeping solution, but I now have no issue getting invoices to Gmail and Hotmail. Self-resolving has its merits. Thank you to everyone that reached out to make sure you'd get an invoice, and I also appreciate those that offered up suggestions for a resolution.
Main (Firing) Pin Spring Selection:
I'm getting a lot of questions about which Main Spring should be used, which is good, and I've shared my answer to this question individually, but I'm getting this question so much that I deem it necessary to share it here.
The key to proper ignition is the effective and consistent delivery of focused energy to the case rim. The energy equation is made up of the trigger, how much drag is in the particular assembly (which lube is used, surface finish, etc.) and of course spring rate.
Spring rate is more of the determining component in a spring-around-pin (SAP) fire control system. A pin-around-spring (PAS) system depends more on mass, which equates to momentum (yes, I have my personal favorite).
So, these determining factors (and there's more than I've mentioned) are the reason there's a spring kit, which is designed to accommodate the variables.
So, the only way to truly know which spring you need is to "listen to your rifle" by seeing what level of down range performance is optimal (based on your own requirements of what's "optimal') with a given spring rate.
Also, it's important to note that adding paint to the spring to identify the rate (15lbf to 20lbf) is a detriment to performance because the paint becomes part of the drag equation. The problem is, there isn't necessarily a better way to identify them, so I tell people to remove the paint to lessen the drag and increase the efficiency of the system. But again, your own definition of "optimal" should be considered if you'd rather not remove the paint.
Theres tons more to follow as all these projects move forward so stay tuned, and please keep the questions coming. It's great to hear from everyone and it's interesting because so many of you open with, "I don't want to bother you, but...." Please know that anyone reaching out with a question isn't "bothering" me at all. Most of you receive a rather immediate response and there are times I miss an email with the flurry of emails that come in, but I will take the time to answer your questions.
Thanks,
MB
Mike, a spring question and a trigger question related to this ^^^ post:
- Firing pin spring: After maybe 12-14k rounds on my 2019-vintage V22 (serial 20xx), is a new firing pin spring advisable? As far as what the rifle is telling me re accuracy, all is copacetic. I very seldom disassemble the bolt for cleaning; when I've done so, its innards are clean with a film of lube visible.
- Trigger: Is there any way for a semi-skilled student of precision rifle to quantify drag imparted by the trigger, which, according to your preceding post, affects ignition consistency? I have a TT Diamond; action is in an MPA BA Comp chassis.
There’s no hard and fast rule. I have high round count rifles with the original spring and others that I’ve had to change the spring. Usually one will know when it needs to be changed.
Short answer, yes.
MB
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V-Series Magazine Update:
It's looking pretty awesome. This is the roughing op for the V2217 (V22 compatible, 17 round capacity) Left Magazine Half. We started proofing the approach with the larger magazine to validate the physical clearance envelope and there's gobs of room.
Thanks to the change of approach, we're ahead of schedule and will start running the V2210 within another few days.
More to follow....
MB
It's looking pretty awesome. This is the roughing op for the V2217 (V22 compatible, 17 round capacity) Left Magazine Half. We started proofing the approach with the larger magazine to validate the physical clearance envelope and there's gobs of room.
Thanks to the change of approach, we're ahead of schedule and will start running the V2210 within another few days.
More to follow....
MB
Hi Mike,
I just received my G3 barrel wrench and single screw cocking piece in the mail this afternoon! Thank you for these parts (excellent quality parts if I may say)! One comment on the single screw cock piece - wrench size is 0.050 hex key (use actual hex key where shaft is same size as the end so it can fit all the way down the screw hole). Also, the threaded hole for the screw was not "cleanly threaded" all the way down - meaning that when I was turning the screw down, it ran into resistance and needed to be (some/little) "forced" turned before I could see the set screw to protrude into the main channel (firing pin channel?). I recommend this be performed before installing so that when you turn the set/grub screw to "finger tight" that it is actually contacting the part and not just "binding up" in un-chased threading.
I was searching and found the 3 year old VGW video on setting this and then the back of my brain was screaming "DON'T DO IT...go back and read the SH forum" and lo and behold, found what I read (and stored in my aging brain) your warning and note.
Any update on creating a video on how to do a proper adjustment of the cocking piece (as this will likely need to be done after replacing the OEM (2 screw CP) with the DDG 1-screw CP?
Thanks, Dude.
Yessir, the Allen size is .050 and I use a hardened tool, not the .050 from a Chinese Allen set, which is why the broached feature in the screw gets stripped.
Also, the initial resistance is normal and not indicative of a problem. The set screw has no issue moving through the junction of one threaded feature into a perpendicular threaded feature.
Exactly; do not follow the VGW video, as there’s info pertaining to using a piece of paper as a gauge between surfaces that aren’t relevant to proper adjustment.
Keep in mind that the process isn’t adjusting the firing pin at all, but instead, the position of the cocking piece relative to the sear surface and adjustment validation occurs by monitoring the handoff during bolt closure.
I’ll cover all the details as soon as I can get a video done, which I’ll post here.
MB
Hey Mike,
My comment was to inform that the screw will have resistance when turning at the later part of the threaded feature prior to reaching the perpendicular threaded feature. I have learned that with small set screws (on other unrelated parts) to "precheck" these threaded holes to ensure that they will engage as intended and not assume that as I tighten the set screw (and praying I don't strip the tiny screw drive or broached feature) that the resistance felt is the actual engagement and not a phantom resistance due to the screw hole threading/binding and not actually engaging as intended.
You are correct, after I pre-tested the threading until the set screw protruded into the perpendicular threaded feature, it backed out easily and forth with no issue or further concerns.
My comment was to provide my (singular) color commentary or helpful hint for those with similar (lack of) experience with this piece.
I came late to this long thread. I have read most posts up to page 130 (post 6400)
I have an early V22 Gen 1 in a KRG Bravo stock.
Could someone assist with a few questions.
1) I have seen much posted about the new aluminum mags. What is the advantage of this new design?
2) I have occasional Hard Bolt closing. Really hard. I have had this with different brands of ammo.
3) Are there any tricks or special adjustments for the Bravo stock to help feeding?
4) I have a 24” Kreiger barrel. I shoot benchrest not PRS. Is this the optimal barrel length for benchrest?
5) does Mike have a website to order parts?
Thanks
I have an early V22 Gen 1 in a KRG Bravo stock.
Could someone assist with a few questions.
1) I have seen much posted about the new aluminum mags. What is the advantage of this new design?
2) I have occasional Hard Bolt closing. Really hard. I have had this with different brands of ammo.
3) Are there any tricks or special adjustments for the Bravo stock to help feeding?
4) I have a 24” Kreiger barrel. I shoot benchrest not PRS. Is this the optimal barrel length for benchrest?
5) does Mike have a website to order parts?
Thanks
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It might be to your benefit to go all the way back to post 10,884 which marks the first post about the demise of "Vudoo" as we knew it. Over the next 35ish pages, you find @RAVAGE88 stepping up - not only to start a new company to provide parts and new "stuff" but also to go deeper into the causes of "feeding issues" than we've heretofore seen.
With that said - the following is my $.02 as the happy owner of a first-gen V22 which has not misfed from either polymer or [discontinued] 15-round aluminum mags in years and thousands of rounds. I do not profess to be an expert - that's Mike's space - but my rifle runs like a Swiss watch.
- I have seen much posted about the new aluminum mags. What is the advantage of this new design?
For your application (benchrest), none - ASSUMING you are not having feeding issues with your current setup. See below.
-------- - I have occasional Hard Bolt closing. Really hard. I have had this with different brands of ammo.
Is the bolt unduly hard to close with no ammo being fed? If so, the following may apply:
- Do you have the early conical breech - that is, the end of the breech is almost "sharp" as opposed to the end being flattened?
- Does the nose piece rotate freely on the bolt body?
With my 2019-vintage gen-1, the nose piece / bolt body fitment had become distorted in association with conical breech. Vudoo rechambered my barrel with a modified (flattened end) conical breech and fixed the bolt. I don't know what your service options are now. I wouldn't trust the current "Vudoo" as far as I could throw one of the shop machines they say they have. If Mike doesn't speak up, maybe @David Lott has thoughts. Or @jelrod1 at Modacam Custom Rifles (although Jonathan doesn't post here much).
--------- - Are there any tricks or special adjustments for the Bravo stock to help feeding?
What do you mean, "help feeding?" Are you having actual misfeeds, or are you referring to the hard-to-close bolt? Even when my bent-bolt issue became obvious (it happened over time, not suddenly), the rifle fed fine. The bolt was just hard to close because it was deformed.
---------- - I have a 24” Kreiger barrel. I shoot benchrest not PRS. Is this the optimal barrel length for benchrest?
Out of my wheelhouse. No opinion here.
----------- - does Mike have a website to order parts?
He touches on this most recently in post 12,051.
-----------
Bobhide,
The Gen 2 Aluminum Magazines are much like my Gen 1 Aluminum Mags from a number of years ago. The main differences are, the Gen 1 has a vertical feed stack, and the Gen 2 has an angled feed stack. Although I've not experienced a single rim lock in the Nylon Mags or Gen 1 Alum Mags, I did the angled feed stack in the Gen 2 Alum Mags to orient the case rims differently. Also, the Gen 2 Alum Mags are lighter than Gen 1 and I've added a RimX compatible Gen 2 Alum Mag. Lastly, the highest capacity in the Gen 1 was 15 rounds, and thanks to "Danny Devito," the highest capacity in the Gen 2 is 17 rounds.
Occasional hard bolt closure:
This could be a few things. First, ammo....is there a pattern of difficult bolt closure with a particular brand or lot of ammo? Or is it more random? Two, what's the condition of the bolt face and barrel breech at the time of difficult bolt closure? There's only .003" of space between the end of the bolt nose and the barrel breech, so it doesn't take much particulate matter to make it difficult to close the bolt. Make sure these two surfaces don't have smashed lead shavings stuck in that gap, which is primarily what has caused this issue in the past.
Tricks to adjusting a KRG:
The first thing I'm supposed to say here is, follow the manufacturer's instructions, but what the instructions don't say is, before torquing the barreled action into the chassis, insert one of your rimfire magazines and stand the rifle on the butt pad so the recoil lug rests against the rear face of the recoil lug pocket. This accomplishes a couple things, but I'll get into those details in a video that I plan to do at the end of the week. While the rifle is standing on the butt pad, torque the front action bolt first, followed by the rear. The problem with the KRG Bravo I have is too much magazine movement.
Optimal barrel length:
This is a highly subjective topic due to various outliers. So, first question; is the bore of your barrel taper lapped? If so, the smallest diameter of the taper will determine where to finish the length. This could well be an obscure number, like 21 7/64", depending on the lapping job. If it's a straight bore, i.e., the bore diameter is the same from one end of the blank to the other, then length isn't determined by a tight spot.
Website:
The DeLane Development Group website, https://www.delanedevgroup.net is currently under construction and will feature eCommerce. I don't have a launch date for the site yet, so until the site is up and running, I'm processing orders via an email to me that includes address, phone number and how many of what is wanted.
MB
I have a flat breach face. I will be much more aware of the situation when I have a hard bolt closure and have more data at that time. I have learned a lot here about the magazine loading and watching for the rim getting behind the prior round.
I have a new Criterion barrel that is taper laped. I will see how the gunsmith feels about the best length when he chambers it. His recommended chamber is the Winchester 52 D
Thanks Mike and all.
I have a new Criterion barrel that is taper laped. I will see how the gunsmith feels about the best length when he chambers it. His recommended chamber is the Winchester 52 D
Thanks Mike and all.
The Win 52D is my all-time favorite 22LR chamber. And, it’s the shortest of all match chambers at .580”.
I have such an appreciation for it, that it’s the parent chamber of my chamber, the 22LR RAVAGE, which was used at VGW until my departure.
You’ll like the 52D, but, if you desire to extract a loaded round, it’s likely that you won’t.
MB
Historically, from Gen 1.2 to the Gen 3, Three60 (all repeaters), all of the cocking pieces had one screw.
While creating the V22S, Single Shot, the BR crowd wanted a second screw in the cocking piece. From that point, the Gen 3 Repeater and Single Shot had the two-screw cocking piece.
MB
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Any reason why the BR crowd wanted a second screw in the cocking piece? We’re there failures or issues with a single screw securing it?
Normally, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” seems to apply, just saying…
Well, yes, I suppose there were reasons
, but there were never any issues with the single screw cocking piece.MB
This is a shining example of how a well designed product can go awry when people start “making improvements” to things that aren’t failing.Well, yes, I suppose there were reasons
MB
You only make “improvements” when there is a clear need because it “fails” to achieve new, stated objectives or goals, even though the current design meets the initial and current design and goals.
The initial thread pitch for the next gen firing pins (starting with the Gen 1.2 action) was 48 tpi, but I needed a finer "fall" adjustment, so revised it to 64 tpi, but I don't think any of the crescent tip pins were 48 tpi. I'd have to look back through the revs to be sure though.
MB
I read a great article regarding barrel seasoning and cleaning by Gregory J. Roman from VGW.
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter - The Truth About Guns
By Gregory J. Roman As anyone involved in the shooting sports knows, precision rimfire is growing rapidly. The internet is full of tons of advice, good and bad, on how to perform better as a shooter. If there is one thing that my time at Vudoo has taught me, it’s that there is not much ... Read more
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
That was a very interesting read and thoughts on cleaning a precision rimfire barrel.I read a great article regarding barrel seasoning and cleaning by Gregory J. Roman from VGW.
A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter - The Truth About Guns
By Gregory J. Roman As anyone involved in the shooting sports knows, precision rimfire is growing rapidly. The internet is full of tons of advice, good and bad, on how to perform better as a shooter. If there is one thing that my time at Vudoo has taught me, it’s that there is not much ... Read more
I’d be curious on others thoughts on how they preserve accuracy in their barrel while cleaning or how long it takes (round count) to restore accuracy after a through cleaning (that likely removes (good) fouling).
Here's an extensive article by Steven Boelter. It may be somewhat dated. I'm certainly not expert enough to judge. But Mr. Boelter was a respected authority on most aspects of rimfire operations when he was running his research program. I assume he's still around, albeit not posting anywhere I've seen since he left Anschütz North America a while back. I must suppose that there's useful stuff in there. The 22 rimfire is old and it hasn't changed much.
What do the experts hereabouts think? I'm eager to know.
dk
Cleaning has been centric to a rather large and sometimes heated debate and there are many articles and various forum posts about what it means to "clean" a rimfire. Some articles are very elementary, and lack specific detail, along the lines of being more of a regurgitation or focused on individual goals, which don't always communicate the benefits and dangers of "cleaning" a rimfire. In fact, I've not seen any article that covers the dangers; not saying they don't exist though, just saying I've not seen any.
The other end of the spectrum is the article you posted, which is where I drive my stake in the ground. Data, data, data. What many don't realize that while "cleaning" their rimfire, they could be doing more damage than good and many of the regurgitated processes don't address this. In addition, I lean more toward the methods employed by BR shooters, as those methods are time tested, and maybe not directly associated with the data, but their methods align with the data.
This past Friday, I filmed the first video of a series of videos and within the series, I'll be covering the "cleaning" process and featuring an inventory of things in my kit. The reason I mention the kit is because the primary focus has been the barrel on the rifle, but not what it is we're putting in that barrel and how we take care of and protect those things.
Yes, there's a carbon ring. Yes, there's a difference between seasoning a barrel and maintaining that seasoning until it's necessary to strip the bore and re-season, but during the time our kit inventory isn't being used, how's all that stuff being treated? I've not seen anyone cover this material.
And again, the topic is highly subjective and there are strong opinions about how and why some things are done and equally as strong opinions about what shouldn't be done.
Anyway, I expect I'll film the cleaning video within three to four weeks.
MB
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The author makes some specious claims that can mislead many readers who might take him seriously.I read a great article regarding barrel seasoning and cleaning by Gregory J. Roman from VGW.
A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter - The Truth About Guns
By Gregory J. Roman As anyone involved in the shooting sports knows, precision rimfire is growing rapidly. The internet is full of tons of advice, good and bad, on how to perform better as a shooter. If there is one thing that my time at Vudoo has taught me, it’s that there is not much ... Read more
He says that by following his cleaning regimen he gets great results downrange. He also claims that this cleaning method produces low ES and SD numbers. His words are below.
Following these methods had produced great groups on paper at 50 and 100 yards. It also produces extremely low ES and SD numbers over the chronograph which translates to extremely consistent and predictable ballistics at long range.
Shooter and conditions aside, it's the ammo and the barrel that are responsible for results, not the particular cleaning method. As for the chrony results, that too is the product of the barrel and ammo -- not one good cleaning method rather than another.
Exactly this ^^^^.
I addressed numerous comments in this article as regurgitation; meaning presenting something heard or read that sounds good to repeat without an understanding of what it all really means.
MB
Purely from what I've seen/heard, Mr. Roman is a good guy who knows a lot about shooting. I presume there's no argument, given his wins and high placements (as he says, anyway), that he can shoot a rimfire. However, Steven Boelter's article goes much deeper and seems
Yessir, shooting is a skill built on repetition and the skill improves as the repetition is fine tuned over time. There are a lot of highly successful shooters in NRL22, PRS, etc., no different than a lot of other skill based disciplines and I agree that Mr. Roman is a skillful shooter. He has worked hard at it.
On the other hand, technical information has varying levels of quality. Doctors talk to doctors. Lawyers talk to lawyers. Race car drivers talk to race car drivers, etc.
Doctors can’t practice law and be taken seriously (and it’s illegal) unless they went to law school and pass the Bar Exam. Otherwise, the info is suspect, misleading, lacks context, and so forth. This is the comparison that’s being made as it relates to @grauhanen opinion and it’s why I agree with his point.
Good shooting skills aside, the quality of the technical information is important and it’s the lower quality information that has led to a lot of frustration in this community; much of it expressed in this thread by other shooters. That’s why various comments in that article are misleading.
The crew of people at Savage that make barrels can’t break away from Savage and realistically start their own barrel company. They’re executing a regurgitated process without any relevant understanding of the technical basis. But, they’re “in the gun industry.”
MB
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No sir, no hard fast rules for when to clean/season; basically, your rifle will tell you, which means that you’re avoiding the platitudes and going straight to the source.
All barrels are different, then throw in the lot to lot differences of ammo, shooting conditions, weather, shooting with a suppressor or without a suppressor, etc.
There will be times accuracy fall off is just because of what’s happening within the first few inches of the barrel (breech forward), and/or what’s happening at the muzzle/crown.
For NRL22/PRS, what’s in between doesn’t typically require as much attention, but this will depend on the quality of the barrel and largely, if damage has been done while cleaning.
Lastly, C4 Carbon Remover is an awesome choice, as are the other solutions/solvents from BoreTech, but I’m a huge fan of all things BoreTech and have used their stuff for a really long time. The BoreTech bore guide for the V22 was a collaboration between me and them. I also like Lucas Gun Oil and CLP.
Aside from the oil and CLP, I believe the only other thing I’m using that didn’t come from BoreTech are chamber plugs, which came from Sinclair a really long time ago.
Hope this helps,
MB
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I shoot benchrest only. I plan to sell my Timney Calvin Elite Rrm 700 trigger and replace with a Bix n Andy. I have a Bix trigger in my other centerfire rifle.
Does anyone else use a Bix trigger?
Does anyone else use a Bix trigger?
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