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22-06?

gunsnjeeps

gunsnjeeps

Retired Swab Jockey
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 15, 2009
2,115
1,001
Norfolk, Va
Has anyone ever heard of a 22 caliber wildcat cartridge based on a .30-06? I was thinking of a cartridge using 77 to 90 grain bullets. Is this just too much volume to be useful? .22-08 maybe? Most of the .22 rounds are based of off 45-60 grain bullets and wouldn't be able to use the heavier bullets. I would think a Savage long action with a .22 caliber bull barrel and a 1 in 7" twist would be the perfect test bed. The barrel blank exists already, the action is common, all I'd need is a set of custom dies and a chamber ream.
 
Re: 22-06?

I would run an 8 or 9 twist.
Mt friend has a 22'06 with a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">7</span></span> twist the blows up 95% of the bullets he's tried with full power loads.

If I were building an overbore 22 I'd do a 22/6mm(TTH?) or a 22x47 Lapua with an 8 twist.

 
Re: 22-06?

MLC, thanks for the answer. I coudn't find anything on a "22-06" so I wasn't sure if it had been done by anyone that had any info on it. I was figuring a 7" twist since that's what 77's and 80's run through. The lighter bullets are thinner jackets, the match king jackets are heavier but I wasn't sure how they'd hold up to velocity. I'd be intersted in getting more information about your friends rifle and loads. I thought this idea up the other night and have only done minimal research.
 
Re: 22-06?

There are a number of 22/06 Garands at the Springfield Armory Museum upstairs. The Army was looking at it and other calibers for the Garand. For instance I have seen a 7MM M14 barrel from SA.
 
Re: 22-06?

.22-06 has been done. I suggest you read 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Volume I' (there are two books Volume I & II) by P. O. Ackley. There is not that much new out there. I believe the book will change your mind and save you a great deal of money.

Good luck

Jerry
 
Re: 22-06?

I will also say if I were building a wildcat 22, in general, I would look very hard at the 22BR or 22 Dasher with an 8 twist.
Lapua brass, proven to be a tack driver, good barrel life et al.
 
Re: 22-06?

There's a former member from here that had a 22-06 and he claimed to shoot the 80 TSX at 3600+ fps.

I have a reamer and some brass for a 22-284 Winchester. It is a ballistic duplicate of the 22-06. There's a couple members on here with 22-284's, here's the thread I started about the chambering when I was doing this research.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1039857

If you're going to go forward with an ultrabore 22 wildcat like this, I'd suggest looking into the AI version for brass life reasons.

You probably want to start with 25-06 brass so that it's easier to neck size to shape. When I was making brass for the 22-284 I had some 30-284 brass that I necked back to 7mm, 6.5mm, 6mm, and finally 22 caliber.

I had to ream and turn the necks on it.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mt friend has a 22'06 with a 6 twist the blows up 95% of the bullets he's tried with full power loads.</div></div>
Jeez! A 1:6 twist. That's fast!
 
Re: 22-06?

I have recieved more info here than I have been able to find elsewhere. Who says everything is on-line? I figured it had been done but there was not much info out there except bits and pieces. The Ackley book sounds like a good starting point.

The post has a lot of good info too. Sounds like I'm barking up someone elses tree. I was wondering how fast a 90 gn Sierra would go (emailing Sierra, the are great people. would like to visit again.) I also thought of solids, no jacket to spin off. I haven't looked to see what's available yet.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever heard of a 22 caliber wildcat cartridge based on a .30-06? I was thinking of a cartridge using 77 to 90 grain bullets. Is this just too much volume to be useful? .22-08 maybe? Most of the .22 rounds are based of off 45-60 grain bullets and wouldn't be able to use the heavier bullets. I would think a Savage long action with a .22 caliber bull barrel and a 1 in 7" twist would be the perfect test bed. The barrel blank exists already, the action is common, all I'd need is a set of custom dies and a chamber ream. </div></div>

The 22-'06 and 22-284 are Wildcats of long standing. That being said,neither does anything for me personally.

While I've several CHeetahs and have played with the Swift AI,I much prefer the 22-250AI,when talking higher BC's and capacious .224's. Mainly because if a 22-250AI doesn't ring the bell,a case capacity increase isn't the answer,more BC is. That means 243AI in my book,though I've a 6mm RemAI and a 6-06AI.

The CHeetah is a fickle bitch and a pain to form for(especially when talking their ubiquitous .250" neck) and the Swift/Swift AI simply consumes to much COAL latitude. The 22-250AI in a fast twist,is a wicked sonofabitch and friendly in all mannerisms. Anymore,about all I shoot is the 75A-Max crowding 3500fps,whether it my 1-7.7" Kreiger or the 9" Hart.

I'd much rather have a s/a 243AI gunning the 105A-Max,than a l/a .224" of any ilk,squirting anything. Less bullshit,more ass and simply sinister precision.

Easy to pass on Salvage as well.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a former member from here that had a 22-06 and he claimed to shoot the 80 TSX at 3600+ fps.

I have a reamer and some brass for a 22-284 Winchester. It is a ballistic duplicate of the 22-06. There's a couple members on here with 22-284's, here's the thread I started about the chambering when I was doing this research.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1039857

If you're going to go forward with an ultrabore 22 wildcat like this, I'd suggest looking into the AI version for brass life reasons.

You probably want to start with 25-06 brass so that it's easier to neck size to shape. When I was making brass for the 22-284 I had some 30-284 brass that I necked back to 7mm, 6.5mm, 6mm, and finally 22 caliber.

I had to ream and turn the necks on it. </div></div>

There's no such thing as a .224" 80TSX.

I guess it should be added that the 22-240Wby is another Wildcat of long standing.
 
Re: 22-06?

Very simply, the only thing such a massively overbore chambering will accomplish for you is to provide an ultrashort bore life.

IMHO, if the .22-250 chambering won't do what you need from a .22 caliber bore, going with a bigger case capacity will only complicate the issue with problems you really don't need to be dealing with.

Having several rifles chambered in cartridges based on the '06 casing (.25-'06, .280, and the .30-'06), my view is that going below .277" ('.270') bore diameter is counterproductive.

Just an opinion, mind you...

Greg
 
Re: 22-06?

It's all about harmony and that incorporates mag constraints,COAL latitudes,performance,ES/SD and reality.

While I shoot them all,I prefer the 223AI to all of 'em and by a landslide.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There's no such thing as a .224" 80TSX.

I guess it should be added that the 22-240Wby is another Wildcat of long standing. </div></div>

I didn't know that, I have practically no experience with Barnes bullets and this guy used to tell people that they were a match grade bullet amongst a host of other things... I was just trying to provide some insight to that overbore question and showing him the info that I'd been given when asking a similar question.

Thanks for clearing that up about the 80 TSX
 
Re: 22-06?

Greg, I haven't done a lot of research on the wildcats mentioned so it's not a case of "need". I've been fine with 77 SMK out to 600 with my AR. I know 80's would be better and when I load my own I'll use them.

The way I came into this was looking at .22 caliber cartriges in my reloading manuals and thinking what would a heavy bullet bullet do in an appropriate twist. Most of the .22's are loaded between 35 and 60 ish, so what about 77-90's. Then I figured a 90 and an -06 because I have a Savage .30-06 that I could put a .22 barrel on so i'd have the length and the boltface. Dies and reams are easy and not prohibitively expensive. The heavy .22's over lap the .25-06 but I thought the .22's might get a little more velocity. Somewhere in there the laws of diminishing returns applies.
 
Re: 22-06?

THe 22-06 vs the 25-06 with equal weight bullets will be slower. The reason is twofold.

The bearing surface length for the 22 caliber bullet will be longer given equal weights. This is because the bullet obviously must be longer to get the extra weight into the bullet.

This causes more frictional drag in the bore and you need more force on the back of the bullet to get an equivalent muzzle velocity.

Secondly (and a larger effect) is that the reduced diameter of the bullet reduces the effective pressure surface on the base of the bullet and the equivalent chamber pressure will have less force acting on the base of the bullet.

So, increasing the bore drag and reducing the force available to shove the bullet down the bore is going to cut your muzzle velocity in the smaller bore vs. the larger bore.

The reduced bullet force is based on the stipulation that you keep the same chamber pressure. I consider that a pretty reasonable assumption since if you have more pressure allowable why not use it in the larger bore as well.
 
Re: 22-06?

You boys really should shoot alot more and read alot less.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You boys really should shoot alot more and read alot less. </div></div>

Written by the guy who has made over 100 posts a day since he has joined... approximately 90% of which have not done anything more than rile up members who are answering questions that were asked in a reasonable manner.

We've all been told how wonderful a shot you are and how much you shoot and how many rifles you own, maybe your holiness can bear with us lowly shooters who only run through 350-400 rounds of match ammo a month?

EDIT: The explanation I gave about equal bullet weights for different bore sizes is personal test results that happen to jive with theoretical calculations. Just FYI, it's not from reading, it's from doing.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You boys really should shoot alot more and read alot less. </div></div>

Written by the guy who has made over 100 posts a day since he has joined... approximately 90% of which have not done anything more than rile up members who are answering questions that were asked in a reasonable manner.

We've all been told how wonderful a shot you are and how much you shoot and how many rifles you own, maybe your holiness can bear with us lowly shooters who only run through 350-400 rounds of match ammo a month? </div></div>

+1
It looks like he's trying to catch up to Boltrippers Post numbers in under 30 days.
 
Re: 22-06?

I agree I need more trigger time, we all do. Read before bed everynight. It's easier to read in bed than shoot.
 
Re: 22-06?

Why not just this?


.224 Allen Magnum
270 WSM parent case, fireformed to sharper shoulder angle and less body taper
80 gr. up to 100 gr. Ultra Low Drag(ULD) Rebated Boattail(RBBT), still in development at this time
3450 to 3550 fps in 27” barrel
Designed for long range coyote hunting with minimum pelt damage. Also intended for pronghorn hunting and lighter deer at moderate ranges(400 yards and less.
Appropriate loading powders: H-870, H-US869, AA8700 and WC872



Taken from: Kirby Allen
 
Re: 22-06?

I belive it is the far left....if memory serves.

yhst-54403244313417_2045_4012658-1.jpg
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You boys really should shoot alot more and read alot less. </div></div>

Written by the guy who has made over 100 posts a day since he has joined... approximately 90% of which have not done anything more than rile up members who are answering questions that were asked in a reasonable manner.

We've all been told how wonderful a shot you are and how much you shoot and how many rifles you own, maybe your holiness can bear with us lowly shooters who only run through 350-400 rounds of match ammo a month?

EDIT: The explanation I gave about equal bullet weights for different bore sizes is personal test results that happen to jive with theoretical calculations. Just FYI, it's not from reading, it's from doing. </div></div>

I'm just as at ease multi-tasking,as I am doing the things you couldn't. I never could be a Range Queen,though I'd concede that you likely fill that niche and think it "something".

You're lucky that I can only type with one digit.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dontstrokeme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just this?


.224 Allen Magnum
270 WSM parent case, fireformed to sharper shoulder angle and less body taper
80 gr. up to 100 gr. Ultra Low Drag(ULD) Rebated Boattail(RBBT), still in development at this time
3450 to 3550 fps in 27” barrel
Designed for long range coyote hunting with minimum pelt damage. Also intended for pronghorn hunting and lighter deer at moderate ranges(400 yards and less.
Appropriate loading powders: H-870, H-US869, AA8700 and WC872



Taken from: Kirby Allen </div></div>

I dig your humor,that's funnier than hell.

Good one!
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm just as at ease multi-tasking,as I am doing the things you couldn't. I never could be a Range Queen,though I'd concede that you likely fill that niche and think it "something".

You're lucky that I can only type with one digit. </div></div>

Good point, I type with more than one digit because I don't spend my online experience jerking off all over myself thinking how witty and wonderful I am, that's probably why....

You're busy enough being a drama queen to skip the range queen it seems. Your conduct in this thread appears to be that you can't add anything with intellectual content to the topic so you've decided to drop a load on it instead and proclaim your superiority. In that regard, you are quite superior. You're quite superior at showing your skills at being an annoyance.

I've read through about 75% of your posts. If someone doesn't immediately kiss the keys you type on they're subject to ridicule. I can see you've done a fair bit of shooting, but as the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You've convinced yourself that the only way to skin the cat is your way and the only way to enjoy a shooting hobby is your way.

As with many things in life the people who talk the loudest, brag the most, and belittle the most are commonly the least qualified to do so, and have the least understanding of the discussion/event at hand.

The best of the best don't have to spend the time telling everyone how wonderful they are, their actions speak for themselves.

Your actions speak of a Napoleon complex mixed with an insecurity about all things that you have not experienced or more appropriately, do not understand.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone ever heard of a 22 caliber wildcat cartridge based on a .30-06? I was thinking of a cartridge using 77 to 90 grain bullets. Is this just too much volume to be useful? .22-08 maybe? Most of the .22 rounds are based of off 45-60 grain bullets and wouldn't be able to use the heavier bullets. I would think a Savage long action with a .22 caliber bull barrel and a 1 in 7" twist would be the perfect test bed. The barrel blank exists already, the action is common, all I'd need is a set of custom dies and a chamber ream. </div></div>

#1 Ballistic coefficient is your friend.You might want to consider moving up a caliber or 3

#2 Bullets are designed to shoot best "and hold together" within a certain velocity range.

#3 Why would you want to replace the barrel shortly after load work up ???

#4 Learn to use those knob things that are on the middle top and right side of your scope
grin.gif


It's hard to beat 6x47Lapua for all the reasons I've stated.

115's at 3100 fps with 39grains of R-17 = 2000 good shots.

If I thought I had to have a 22cal for long range I'd just stick with good ole 22-250 or 220 swift and shoot 90 grainers.

Steve
 
Re: 22-06?

The only problem with the 22-06 is calculating whether your barrel lasts long enough to finish your load development. When barrel life gets into the 3 digit range, the novelty of large 22 cal cases tends to wear off rather quickly.

Barrel makers however, are your pals.....you'll get to know one well going down this road.
 
Re: 22-06?

Wow.

Nice photo of some crazy (way) overbores. Care to name any of those?

+1 on "will you get finished with your load development before barrel life runs out" You have to question whether you will finish fire forming on some of these.

Ever heard of the "Thunderclappenloudenboomer" I believe that was a 300 Weatherby necked down to .224. Barrel life was around 80 rounds total I believe.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Secondly (and a larger effect) is that the reduced diameter of the bullet reduces the effective pressure surface on the base of the bullet and the equivalent chamber pressure will have less force acting on the base of the bullet.
</div></div>

This is interesting and I believe it to be true. So I question what role a Ackley type shoulder has on this equation. Supposedly the Ackley shoulder should vastly improve the life of your throat- but will it enhance this effect of decreased force being applied to the base of the bullet due to disparity of diameter between bore size and case diameter???

huh???????
 
Re: 22-06?

"30-06 body sized to .308
Then Neck sized to .22
The Double shoulder should make for a nice funnel straight to the bore."

This is pretty cool but consider that the benchrest guys like short fat cases due to more uniform ignition. I.E. shorter case means that the primer initially ignites a higher percentage of the powder.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hasn't there been a .220 Swift for about 70 years? </div></div>

FWIW the Swift is not based on the 06 case. But that is what I would buy/build if I wanted a fast .22 Centerfire.

Good luck

Jerry
 
Re: 22-06?

1. That would be the .270 next to my .30-06 in the cabinet.
2. Didn't know if anyone has tried it with the heavier .22's and what results.
3. Learned during thread, didn't consider.
4. The 77's shoot pretty good out to 600 with out a scope.

If I start shooting Long Range I'll have to get a new rifle. I shoot High Power with an AR but both Savages are sporter barrels with the flexy synthetic stocks. Once I get a bull barrel and a laminated stock I'm close to a new rifle. I'm going either .308 or .30-06. The .22-06 was an idea that isn't going anywhere that started because I was reading a reloading manual.
 
Re: 22-06?

I hope that wasn't too smart ass. I've appreciated everyones input. I've tried the .30-06 at 500 with Remington Factory 165's. I shot a basket ball sized group, thats when I realized I could bend the stock with my sling. I might try it again with a looser sling. I was hoping for a 6-8 inch group, but knew that the factory ammo may not have met that. 200 yards are cigarette pack sized.
 
Re: 22-06?

308 gets my vote over 30-06

260 gets my vote over 308

308 will serve you well.

Shilen makes complete barrels for a Savage all you have to do is headspace it.
Accuracy International is making an AICS for a Savage soon.
Just some options
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OilyOwl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dontstrokeme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just this?


.224 Allen Magnum
270 WSM parent case, fireformed to sharper shoulder angle and less body taper
80 gr. up to 100 gr. Ultra Low Drag(ULD) Rebated Boattail(RBBT), still in development at this time
3450 to 3550 fps in 27” barrel
Designed for long range coyote hunting with minimum pelt damage. Also intended for pronghorn hunting and lighter deer at moderate ranges(400 yards and less.
Appropriate loading powders: H-870, H-US869, AA8700 and WC872



Taken from: Kirby Allen </div></div>

I dig your humor,that's funnier than hell.

Good one! </div></div>

If you aren't kicked off the Hide yet.....no I was not joking, I was serious because Kirby is no dumbass and he already found a design and developed it.....now he has to wait for the bullet manufactures to catch up. Seems like it would be just necking down and trimming to make cases so the fireforming should save barrel life and the biggest saving on barrel life would be that Kirby already did the major load development and if he builds the rifle for him it would be made with the same reamer and the load development.

Point is easy case to run on the verge of crazy, not terribly involved load development, easy to find parent cases in Norma. If I was going to do a .224 Crazy it would be that round.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hasn't there been a .220 Swift for about 70 years? </div></div>

FWIW the Swift is not based on the 06 case. But that is what I would buy/build if I wanted a fast .22 Centerfire.

Good luck

Jerry </div></div>

I know. The point I was trying to make is/was, why reinvent the wheel? If you need more than 22-250 offers, .220 Swift is there.
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I know. The point I was trying to make is/was, why reinvent the wheel? If you need more than 22-250 offers, .220 Swift is there. </div></div>

I don't think Joe was talking about you.. I think he was talking about the nuisance
"OilyOwl"

who seems to speak on every thread possible but contributes very little to any of them.
 
Re: 22-06?

Gunsnjeeps-

Do you reload yet? If not then a 308 is easier and cheaper to get high grade ammo for off the shelf. If you do, the 30-06 is a much more capable round that you can always load down to 308 levels, or hot rod it up to get in with the belted magnum crowd.

You can load 30-06's down to be nice and light like a 30-30 and still have good accuracy, or you can push the brass hard and get 2800+ fps from 210gr class bullets. My 26" rifle runs 208's to 2885fps on the average summer day, and for a heavy, range rifle it will keep you busy to 1500y without much trouble.
 
Re: 22-06?

Your .30-'06 Savage can take a .22-250 chambered barrel just fine. The two cartridges have identical bolt face/cartridge base diameters.

Try that and see what you need after that.

Savage bashers are..., well..., Savage bashers. We tend to chuckle when they get boistrous.

Greg
 
Re: 22-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Savage bashers are..., well..., Savage bashers. We tend to chuckle when they get boistrous.
</div></div>

LOL, especially when the "Salvage" wins over other brands...
 
Re: 22-06?

Bohem, I'm setting up for .308, .30-06, .270 Win and .223. I need more time to shoot, but work gets in the way (maybe the internet does). I've got a new T-7 and dies, I've been reloading pistol on a Loadmaster and a little bit of rifle on a Rockchucker. The .270 will probably be last to work with. .308 is for a Garand for High Power same with the .223 (AR). The 06 is a fun gun, maybe a little long range but the synthetic stock and sporter barrels on both Savages limit the range a little. I think a hot .22 may be a while. I've picked up a lot of good knowledge so far. There are some things I hadn't considered, barrel wear, base diameters, etc.
 
Re: 22-06?

It sounds like you really need to reload not to go broke LOL. I think you'll be surprised at how well those Savages will shoot if you put some tailored loads through them.

I have a sporter weight barrel on a Savage that happens to shoot very bitty groups with hand loads. Factory loads it shoots 1.5" at 100y, but I worked a load that runs 1/4" or less if I don't screw up driving the rifle, fair regularity, not every group, but enough that it keeps me coming back to the range with the rifle.

A light contour barrel is less important than a quality interior, good stress relief and proper joint preload in the tenon joint.
 
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