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6mm Crusader

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hazardus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will, it must have been a heavier gun otherwise you are breaking the laws of physics here...... The 6mm Crusader is a 243 with more "junk in the trunk" so the opposing force will simply be more.

I'm still waiting for the barrel reports! This cartridge looks like sweet in every other variable minus expected barrel life and is sure to keep your gunsmith in business (not that that is a bad thing)! </div></div>

would be true if both rifles were without brakes. The 6mm Crusader has more powder in it and creates a tad more pressure. The action of these forces on the Brake would be different than that of a 243. The load that Will C. was shooting was 52 grains of Retumbo. VS 42 grains of 4350 in a 243. With a Brake this rifle does not move at all. I shot the Nor Cal TBRC with it and several people comented that other than hearing and seeing the blast they could not see the rifle recoil. I could spot my own bullet trace easily. I managed a 3rd place finish the first time out with the rifle in Competition.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

George, so how much for a set of dies, barrel chambered for a M2008 action, 200 pcs of brass and a mag w/o a front plate?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

in a 2008 you can use an Modified AW mag. they are better as they are 10 round and the same length as a 5 RD AICS Mag.

Dies are Competition S Series. and are $186

Barrel $550

Brass is availabe from Remington and Winchester. about $28 per 1000.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Barrel is the cheapest part of the equation and one that is worth the sacrafice for superior performance IMO.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

When you say brass is available from Rem and Win, do you mean already formed brass, or would fire forming be involved?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it have enough poop to stabilize the 115 in an 8 twist Krieger? Got two of those sitting on the shelf right now... </div></div>

Yep. We are shooting them in 1-8's now. Thinking about trying a 1-8.5
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you say brass is available from Rem and Win, do you mean already formed brass, or would fire forming be involved?
</div></div>

you form it from 6mm Rem.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

George - you must have slowed down that load for Vu's match huh? I thought he had a 3100fps cap for that comp!

Opps - sorry.

DSMcG
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I downloaded it to about the same as my 243. till it was runnin 6.5 Mills to 1000 so it was somwhere near 3100. It didnt ruin any steel which was Vu's reason for the restriction. I would have liked to run it wide open,
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I looked on Midway for brass pricing and everything is out of stock. I think George has a started a 6mm brass shortage. LOL
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Back in 2005 when I first met George and the SH crowd I had just inherited a few rifles. I emailed George to ask his opinion about one of the Remingtons which was a Mdl 788 in 6mm. I recalled that little gun being quite the shooter in the hands of my father when I was growing up.

Although he couldn't recommend building on the 788 action (it is in very good shape and he suggested leave it alone and shoot it.) he thought the .260, or .308 built on my 700 was the path back then.

Loading manuals all say the 6mm is a speedy cartridge. Interesting the course this community goes searching for nirvana.

Perhaps the dies and bin of 6mm brass might come in handy after all!

DSMcG
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I have a Remington 40X in 6mm Rem sitting in the safe along with a bunch of brass that I have been wondering what to do with. I might have just found my answer.

Is the AOL the same as 6mm Rem on your loads with 115 DTAC? Will a loaded round eject cleanly from a short action or is it too long? Not a huge deal, just wondering.

thanks.
-todd
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it have enough poop to stabilize the 115 in an 8 twist Krieger? Got two of those sitting on the shelf right now... </div></div>

Yep. We are shooting them in 1-8's now. Thinking about trying a 1-8.5 </div></div>

have you tried a 7.5 or 7 twist for the 115's ?

115's won't stabilize here below 34 degrees with a 1 in 8..
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

So have we determined that the 1:7.5 or 1:7.75 twist is optimal for DTACs?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hazardus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So have we determined that the 1:7.5 or 1:7.75 twist is optimal for DTACs? </div></div>

I'm interested in the twist issue also.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

So basically, you massaged a 6mm Rem case down to fit the mag? Great idea. Can I get one of those made up for Stang shooting? I imagine staying with the 32 deg. shoulder gives better pressure flow down the barrel. As opposed to the 40 deg. which may or may not build too fast and not transfer down the barrel. I had toyed with going with the RCBS version of a 6mm improved but hadn't really thought about shortening the body.

Anyhow, good luck with this round!
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I inquired 2 weeks ago via email about having one built on and they said NO Not Yet.
confused.gif
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I inquired 2 weeks ago via email about having one built on and they said NO Not Yet.
confused.gif
</div></div>

That's b/c it's so badass that George doesn't want to give up the edge...
laugh.gif
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

It ain't that bad ass. I think it's an intersting cartridge, but no super secret marvel of ammunition. You could build a 6mm REM ackley and get the same performance. A 6.5 Swede necked down to 6mm blown out ( aka..6mm Vais) will also do the same. It's a SLIGHT variation of a 6mm Ackley.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It ain't that bad ass. I think it's an intersting cartridge, but no super secret marvel of ammunition. You could build a 6mm REM ackley and get the same performance. A 6.5 Swede necked down to 6mm blown out ( aka..6mm Vais) will also do the same. It's a SLIGHT variation of a 6mm Ackley. </div></div>

I was being facetious, it's Spanish for funny...
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It ain't that bad ass. I think it's an intersting cartridge, but no super secret marvel of ammunition. You could build a 6mm REM ackley and get the same performance. A 6.5 Swede necked down to 6mm blown out ( aka..6mm Vais) will also do the same. It's a SLIGHT variation of a 6mm Ackley. </div></div>

I think the goal is to feed from an AICS mag in a short action, I have a 6x284 that would prolly run with it, but I caint even get the damn thing to feed from a BDL much less an AICS mag
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Try using a SAUM Follower. I know a few people who shoot various 284's, 25, 284 and 6.5 284's and they feed fine.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It ain't that bad ass. I think it's an intersting cartridge, but no super secret marvel of ammunition. You could build a 6mm REM ackley and get the same performance. A 6.5 Swede necked down to 6mm blown out ( aka..6mm Vais) will also do the same. It's a SLIGHT variation of a 6mm Ackley. </div></div>

I think the goal is to feed from an AICS mag in a short action, I have a 6x284 that would prolly run with it, but I caint even get the damn thing to feed from a BDL much less an AICS mag</div></div>

A 6-.284 will smoke it...but so will it smoke your barrel. The first time I set mine back I lost an inch and a half. I load a little lighter now.

Edit:

Mine feeds just fine btw...out of a 1 1/2" dia. barreled VZ-24 sitting in an oversized maple stock. The action and about 2" of barrel are bedded. With the right loads it's a .5 MOA rifle. Other loads have run in the 1.5 MOA range. So it is a little picky.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Throw one of these barrels on the rifle I'm sending you and I'll hook the Pressure Trace system up to it...
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Looked at this in more detail...

Hornady and Federal also make loaded 6mm Rem. rounds. I like Hornady brass, so I'm probably going to get a couple boxes and shoot them to break in the barrel and get some formed cases to start with. Their 308 Win cases have more capacity than Winchester.

Also, 257 Roberts (Win. & Rem. cases available) is the parent case of 6mm Rem. and it can also be formed from 7x57 (Win., Rem.& Norma cases available) if really in a crunch. Fallbacks if nobody has 6mm Rem... a good thing to have as of late.

Seems like H1000 should be a good powder for this, it's touted as ideal for 6-284 on the Hodgdon site. If I use 60gr. water capacity in 6mm Rem. in QL, N570 and AR2218(H50BMG) come out at the top for velocity, both above Retumbo. Have any of these powders been tried?

What length barrel is being used for this? I used 27" in QL.

Other bullets that should be looked at:
-115 Berger VLD Thick has slightly higher BC than 115 DTAC
-105 Berger VLD Thick is very close in BC to the 115 DTAC and may trump its ballistics depending on how much faster it can be driven (if it can stay together).
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Any news...anymore testing with the twist rate and the 115 Dtac?

Anyone pushed the 115 or 105 Bergers at 3200+ yet?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I broke in my barrel (no copper after 3rd. shot, btw) and did some experimenting with fire forming the brass yesterday. I'm going to start load development tomorrow. My Pressure Trace system is still uncalibrated with this barrel, so I'll forgo sharing that data since it hasn't been normalized. It was still useful as a relative comparison though.

I experimented with forming cases with the 115 DTAC and the 87 VMAX. Both bullets were jammed 20 thou into the lands.
Cases were lubed with RCBS Case Slick spray prior to forming.

87 VMAX:
40.0 Varget - 3166 fps., formed shoulder well.
50.0 H1000 - 3053 fps., formed shoulder well.
50.0 RL-25 - 3046 fps., shoulder still rounded, secondary pressure spikes.

Tried a few groups with the Varget, accuracy was not very good.

115 DTAC:
I was given 45.0 RL-25 as the forming load. Got rounded shoulders with that, so I increased the charge. 46.5 gave the pressure that formed the shoulders well. Groups were pretty decent with that charge.

46.5 RL-25 - 2824 fps., formed shoulder well, secondary pressure spikes, ok groups.
46.0 H1000 - 2734 fps., formed shoulder well, traces were very spread out.
50.0 Retumbo - 2921 fps. formed shoulder well, good groups.

I will use 50-50.5 Retumbo in the future. It gave the highest velocities and the best groups at "the" pressure. Here is a 600 yards group I got while fire forming the brass with that load:

6mm_Crusader_50_Retumbo_FF.jpg


I think H1000 has some potential. It didn't do that well with standard primers, but from looking at the traces, I think magnum primers will clear that up. My buddy is supposed to bring some with him for me to try tomorrow.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

This has me thinking now. I was planning on building a 260AI but this might changed that. Here is a balistcs chart between 260AI with 139 scenars and the 6mm and 338 described above by George.

photo-4.jpg

the 6mm and 260 have identical energy and the 6mm has less drop.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

I still need to process all my data from yesterday, but I can confirm that 6mm Crusader gets bare DTACs to over 3200 fps. comfortably with RL-25 and Retumbo (staying under 58k psi.) However, the barrel nodes are at around 3100 fps. for both powders. At these nodes, pressure is running around 53k psi.

Magnum primers do improve the results with H1000. It tops out at around 3150. Its barrel node is at around 3050 fps., also in the low 50k psi area.

I only fired one group with each powder at 300 yards. But, they were all under 2". I'm going to perform some 300 yard testing next. Then I may try the 107 SMK bullets to see where the barrel nodes fall and how their ballistics compare to the ones for the 115 DTACs.

With coated bullets, 3300 fps. should be acheivable within the same pressure envelope...
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Ok, after processing the data. Here is what I've got:

All Win. cases, bare 115 DTAC bullets, 2.945" COAL

Retumbo (WLR primer)
MAX: 54.5 gr. > 3246 fps. (really compressed, but loadable)
OTB Node: 51.9-52.3 gr. > 3086-3115 fps.

RL-25 (WLR primer)
MAX: 51.8 gr. > 3197 fps. (compressed)
OTB Node: 49.9-50.3 gr. > 3086-3106 fps.

H1000 (WLRM primer)
MAX: 52.4 gr. > 3162 fps. (compressed)
OTB Node: 50.4-50.8 gr. > 3031-3054 fps.

-MAX is the same pressure for all three loads, and what I believe to be about 58k psi. <span style="font-weight: bold">(USE AT YOUR OWN RISK)</span>
-RL-25 appears to give the best groups so far...
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

We will see this gun and info in print!!
smile.gif
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, after processing the data. Here is what I've got:

All Win. cases, bare 115 DTAC bullets, 2.945" COAL

Retumbo (WLR primer)
MAX: 54.5 gr. > 3246 fps. (really compressed, but loadable)
OTB Node: 51.9-52.3 gr. > 3086-3115 fps.

RL-25 (WLR primer)
MAX: 51.8 gr. > 3197 fps. (compressed)
OTB Node: 49.9-50.3 gr. > 3086-3106 fps.

H1000 (WLRM primer)
MAX: 52.4 gr. > 3162 fps. (compressed)
OTB Node: 50.4-50.8 gr. > 3031-3054 fps.

-MAX is the same pressure for all three loads, and what I believe to be about 58k psi. <span style="font-weight: bold">(USE AT YOUR OWN RISK)</span>
-RL-25 appears to give the best groups so far... </div></div>

Early results look good...

My new Savage 10 centerfeed DBM has room for 3.05" COL...wonder how much that extra tenth of an inch would be worth with the DTACs?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Thought I'd share sone numbers I ran at 3100 fps since that seems to be his accuracy node. This is useing a BC of.580 let me know if that's
photo-5.jpg


photo-6.jpg
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

50.3 gr. of RL-25 gave consistent 1" groups at 300 yards. Loading up some more to try at a longer distances. Velocity was 3100 fps.

Need to play with Retumbo and H1000 a bit more, they didn't perform all that well at 300 with the charges listed above. Under MOA, but nowhere near as good as RL-25.

Founds some CCI 250 magnum primers to try with H1000. WLRM improved SD spread vs. WLR.

-Lee 6mm Rem. Collet die works nicely for neck-only sizing
-Using 308 Win case holders in the Wilson trimmer
-Working on getting George's spare reamer to Giraud so that a few case holders can be made for the trimmer

Really not impressed with W-W brass... tempted to get some Hornady 6mm Rem. ammo just to get the cases. Wish they sold unloaded brass for that caliber.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

And all this data is from a 27" barrel right? what twist? Can you give a little more info about the rifle?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Working on getting George's spare reamer to Giraud so that a few case holders can be made for the trimmer"

Replied to your email just a few minuets ago..

Im still waiting for my action to arrive!!
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Now this is getting interesting once Giraud case holders become available! How many are you planning on making Glen?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the BC of the 6.5mm bullets available, why do with a 6mm?

6.5 bergers are in the mid 6.4ish range, Lost River Ballistic Technologies feature a 120gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.687 BC, a 132gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.702 BC, and a 144gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.772 BC!

http://www.lostriverballistic.com/LRB/CategoryShow.cfm?CNum=1

I forsee a wildcat in my future, 6.5mm Crusader "Crusher"...

</div></div>

Sorry for the late reply on this but it's been done already. Terry Cross put together the 6.5-08 AI which is shooting 2950+fps with a 6.5mm bullet. Shot well and is still one of my favorite rifles for long distance. Check this link for more info.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

Another data point here that I found interesting regarding the "dusting" of bullets at >3250fps. I just received a batch of about 3K DTACS and noticed that they upgraded the tip substantially over the old style. The old style was very open when compared to the new style and ragged as well (versus the smooth tapered tip of the new style). I'm sure the improved tip will provide a better envelope to avoid dusting these at 3300fps.

I'll see if I can snap some photos for comparison tonight and get them posted. I'm also curious as to the improvement in BC but that is for a different thread.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KansasMag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And all this data is from a 27" barrel right? what twist? Can you give a little more info about the rifle? </div></div>

27" 1-8" twist Bartlein 5R. I'm not 100% sure on the pressures though, as I have no known load to calibrate against.

Yeah Glen, that was me.
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

So there is there any more info on the gain twist bartlein that was talked about earlier?
 
Re: 6mm Crusader

For those interested in a case holder for the Giraud trimmer, now would be a good time to order.

The reamer is on its way to Doug. Its George's spare (loaner) reamer, so there is no way of knowing when it will be available for him to use again. Let him know that you want one so that he makes enough case holders to meet the demand and has a few extra on his shelves.
 
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