I’m curious if it would have similar results in gelatin, or better yet a game animal. That 185gr CX load might just be universal. Out of my 12.5” its very accurate at 100y.
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I do have a bullet I recovered out of my last hog and the expansion was still very impressive. Went into the skull just above the left eye and found it right behind the right shoulder just under the skin. The CX is my favorite bullet no matter what I'm shooting
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Nice shooting. Does your barrel have the 1:3 twist? AR or bolt and what length? Apologies if you posted that info up thread and I missed it.
Looks impressive for sure.
I had absolute shit luck with the 185CX on the two pigs I shot. First one was right in the head at 65 yards and still went 10 yards. Second one took one at 155 yards, rolled it and then I put 4 more into it.
Coyote on the other hand, it puffed it’s head up
Coyote on the other hand, it puffed it’s head up
Hogs are very resilient and they have a small brain cavity, large heavy structured faces encapsulate that small brain and deflection is always a concern when hitting bone with a spire point bullet design…I’m not sure what happened but it definitely wasn't a central nervous system shot because people have done it with smaller calibers on pigs before. Here’s several I took with a 5.56mm. You have a super nice setup those MDT chassis setups are clean.
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So, I'm having a really shit time with Firehole Arms (aka: Black Ammo Matters) hunting subsonics. The first round I chambered in my bolt gun was tight, but not alarmingly so. When I pulled the trigger, the shot was very clearly NOT SUBSONIC and I heard that hair-raising "Wiizzzzzz" sound of what I thought was a ricochet. I thought, A: Weird that it was tight chamber; B: not subsonic; C: my backstop is a 10' x 8' x 4' dirt mound, so why the ricohet. Minding my thoughts, I went to eject the case . . . stuck! After several vain attempts, I just let it cool off and then got out the shell. The firing pin dent was perfect, but the base of the case had clear bolt lift signs.
Fast forward 3 weeks, I run out of the Gorilla Hunt rounds, so I chamber one of the Firehole Arms hunting subs again. This goes in fine, and was actually subsonic, but on trying to eject the round, the bolt won't budge at all. "Well, you're an idiot!" I think as I remember the previous incident, and let it cool off. 30 minutes later, after sitting in a 68F room for half an hour, the bolt still won't budge. It took me 10 minutes and a resin mallet to open up the chamber. The case would not eject from the bolt face, so I had to take the bolt out. After about 30 minutes of trying various methods (edge of counter, vice and mallet, vice-grips, torch), I concluded the case had fire-formed to my bolt face. It is currently at a gunsmith. See pics below.
Has anyone else had issue with this ammo? It appears the first round was supersonic and spun apart, resulting in the "wiz" sound (there was no hole on paper and no dent in the dirt mound). My barrel is a Faxon barrel, so I would think it was the standard chamber. Any ideas what happened? Sorry if this seems like an elementary question, but if this is a round manufacturing issue (other people have similar experiences), Firehole needs to be aware (I emailed them pictures and the above story yesterday).
Fast forward 3 weeks, I run out of the Gorilla Hunt rounds, so I chamber one of the Firehole Arms hunting subs again. This goes in fine, and was actually subsonic, but on trying to eject the round, the bolt won't budge at all. "Well, you're an idiot!" I think as I remember the previous incident, and let it cool off. 30 minutes later, after sitting in a 68F room for half an hour, the bolt still won't budge. It took me 10 minutes and a resin mallet to open up the chamber. The case would not eject from the bolt face, so I had to take the bolt out. After about 30 minutes of trying various methods (edge of counter, vice and mallet, vice-grips, torch), I concluded the case had fire-formed to my bolt face. It is currently at a gunsmith. See pics below.
Has anyone else had issue with this ammo? It appears the first round was supersonic and spun apart, resulting in the "wiz" sound (there was no hole on paper and no dent in the dirt mound). My barrel is a Faxon barrel, so I would think it was the standard chamber. Any ideas what happened? Sorry if this seems like an elementary question, but if this is a round manufacturing issue (other people have similar experiences), Firehole needs to be aware (I emailed them pictures and the above story yesterday).
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Firehole uses converted brass. This is why i dont offer that anymore and only offer new brass. You still have to neck turn even the Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass because neck wall thickness should still be no more than .012” to give enough clearance. A loaded round’s neck should measure .362 for the Q spec .366” neck in the chamber. Also converted brass doesn't have the fireformed shoulder so its slightly rounded. They’re still trying to figure it out, but converted brass isnt what I would recommend unless it's properly prepped by someone who has all the right equipment to anneal, size with at least a .004” shoulder bump, trim, and chamfer. I also check every single round in a ammo checker before its sent out.
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Springback. its more obvious with the Lee sizing die than the Hornady sizing die because of the shape of the expander. Just give it a little more shoulder bump and after a few firings it should fireform. Maybe skim with the neck turner slightly to take off the excess that flows up the case towards the case mouth. After about the 3rd or 4th firing (if its loaded subsonic) it should be fireformed.
I have the 8.6 Blackout but not necessarily a fan.
I make cases out of 308, 6 5 Creedmoor, 30-06, 270,...the best is 300 Savage.
All cases must be machined into the shoulder plus to thin it out, as it's neck turned in a lathe, with a sharp carbide OD lathe tool ground with a 30° angle, with a radius honed in the neck/ shoulder junction...and measured. Then there will be no problem with them sticking in the chamber. Imr 4198 & 300 gr Burger was lower SD with decent accuracy and 300 SMK with 1680 was good accuracy wise but larger SD
I find it kind of a worthless caliber, too much capacity for subs to little capacity for supers to be effective. With the 300 grs it's a fun, but expensive subsonic pinker, wasting good 300 gr Berger bullets.
Except for lobbing 300 gr Match bullets at moderate range targets, with flatter trajectory,...I find the 450 Bushmaster AR 15 to be a better tool, light weight, brass available, a larger variety of, 451, 452, and 458 resized bullets to choose from....and over 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy out of a light AR 15 16" barrel...and much more effective at close range..with the 16 twist shooting 502 gr cast has way more subsonic energy delivered with a larger hole, at close subsonic ranges...and much more fun plinking. I use them both...
Building a 30 RAR, waiting on reamer, supers only, machined down a 12 twist Rem Varmint barrel to slim AR profile, for the project...made forming dies,...just for fun...will it be worthwhile...maybe, maybe not.
I make cases out of 308, 6 5 Creedmoor, 30-06, 270,...the best is 300 Savage.
All cases must be machined into the shoulder plus to thin it out, as it's neck turned in a lathe, with a sharp carbide OD lathe tool ground with a 30° angle, with a radius honed in the neck/ shoulder junction...and measured. Then there will be no problem with them sticking in the chamber. Imr 4198 & 300 gr Burger was lower SD with decent accuracy and 300 SMK with 1680 was good accuracy wise but larger SD
I find it kind of a worthless caliber, too much capacity for subs to little capacity for supers to be effective. With the 300 grs it's a fun, but expensive subsonic pinker, wasting good 300 gr Berger bullets.
Except for lobbing 300 gr Match bullets at moderate range targets, with flatter trajectory,...I find the 450 Bushmaster AR 15 to be a better tool, light weight, brass available, a larger variety of, 451, 452, and 458 resized bullets to choose from....and over 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy out of a light AR 15 16" barrel...and much more effective at close range..with the 16 twist shooting 502 gr cast has way more subsonic energy delivered with a larger hole, at close subsonic ranges...and much more fun plinking. I use them both...
Building a 30 RAR, waiting on reamer, supers only, machined down a 12 twist Rem Varmint barrel to slim AR profile, for the project...made forming dies,...just for fun...will it be worthwhile...maybe, maybe not.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t 30 RAR require a different bolt face, upper and require a special follower in the magazine?
it
All depends on what you're trying to accomplish...easiest for a 40,000 psi AR 15 just use 450 bushmaster brass, bolt, and mags. The 6.5 grendel mags will work, with slight modifications. Make some forming die in the lathe, neck down from 45 to 35 with a 25° shoulder. Trim to length and run 30 cal die. Turn case necks. Could turn all the case heads down to grendel bolt size and add an extractor groove ...it would be really rebated, for a slightly stronger bolt, like the 458 socom or 22 Nosler. Depends on what you want to do with the components available or make your own. I'm chambering a old Remington 700 varmint barrel for this project. The barrel is already profiled for AR 15, waiting on reamer and barrel extension. Everything else "homemade" including the muzzle brake.
Sounds like a lot.
Finally getting around to working up some loads. I have Maker Bullets 220gr T-rex bullets I'm trying to figure a starting load to work some supers up.
I see a lot of sub data for the round(i know that's what it was made for). i have AA1680, varget and CFEBLK on hand. rifle is a 16" faxon barrel/1:3 T/ unsuppressed
would prefer to use cfe blk or varget as it seems to be the most temp stable powder that I've read of being used in 8.6 loads. I'm not apposed to the 1680.
I'll be using the rifle to hunt coyotes over the winter. Don't want to have to mess around with load adjustment and stuff during hunting season.
Scrolled the thread and seen some good info but really no update on performance or data
any guidance would greatly be appreciated.
I see a lot of sub data for the round(i know that's what it was made for). i have AA1680, varget and CFEBLK on hand. rifle is a 16" faxon barrel/1:3 T/ unsuppressed
would prefer to use cfe blk or varget as it seems to be the most temp stable powder that I've read of being used in 8.6 loads. I'm not apposed to the 1680.
I'll be using the rifle to hunt coyotes over the winter. Don't want to have to mess around with load adjustment and stuff during hunting season.
Scrolled the thread and seen some good info but really no update on performance or data
any guidance would greatly be appreciated.
Has anyone had any issues with the 300gr SMK coming apart yet at sub speeds?
I see there have been some Lapua and some Hornady come apart. Looking at the ELD-M and SMK to see if anyone has had any issues.
I am preparing some components for a bolt-action sub gun. The barrel is 16" for now, I plan on picking up an action to SBR and then grabbing the 12" bbl.
I have also been looking at the Barned 285gr LRX, since it is not a jacketed round. I am not averse to buying some nice monolithic for hunting but it would be nice to have a good bullet that is not crazy expensive for ringing steel.
I see there have been some Lapua and some Hornady come apart. Looking at the ELD-M and SMK to see if anyone has had any issues.
I am preparing some components for a bolt-action sub gun. The barrel is 16" for now, I plan on picking up an action to SBR and then grabbing the 12" bbl.
I have also been looking at the Barned 285gr LRX, since it is not a jacketed round. I am not averse to buying some nice monolithic for hunting but it would be nice to have a good bullet that is not crazy expensive for ringing steel.
No issues with 300 SMKs ripping apart or Lapuas. I actually found that the Lapuas were more accurate and consistent than the SMK. I’ve been keeping my MV between 900-1000 fps.
No, if kept subsonic, the 300 gr Berger and 300 SMK were the most accurate in my 16" barrel...keep 285 ELDM below 1400 fps ...at 1400fps they did not make it to the 50 yd target.
Shoot without a muzzle device as they blow up as soon as they leave the confines of the barrel and destroy the muzzle device and the magneto speed bayonet.
My two best loads are 300 gr Berger 15.8 gr imr 4189 very consistent, and 300 gr SMK 15.8 gr Accurate 1680 are both accurate. And just about the only ones worth considering as this is a subsonic caliber, with too much capacity for subs and too little for high velocity. Plus lighter lead bullets blow up and copper too slow be of any use and inaccurate in the 3 twist. IMO...the 8 6 Blackout is a fun expensive 300 gr 338 Sub plinker.
Fired a high velocity 2000 fps lead 225 gr bullet about 18" to 24" from a big cardboard box aiming for the center...not only did the bullet explode the throw bullet fragments into the center but both outsides of the large box were hit with bullet fragments. Dangerous for anyone standing slightly in front of the muzzle.
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The 3 twist 8.6 can be very be dangerous, and why I say stay subsonic mostly, only venture into supers with solid copper. Test with out the muzzle device attached. As this is what happened on the first super sonic load from the Faxon Web site with lead bullets they recommend with Accurate 1680...a few hundred dollars in damage in one shot...had to buy a new MagnetoSpeed bayonet too.
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I make 8.6 blackout out of every 308 based case , 30-06, 25-06. 270, 308, 6.5 Creedmoor, but 300 Savage was easiest. I have trimming down to one second cutting time on any length case and home built sizing die takes the brass down in one quick pass. And the necks must be turned into the shoulder and sometimes, .008" off the shoulder at 30°. And each checked for headspace. Then absolutely no problems with the brass.
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Kind of off topic but on the subject of neck turning. So I reload quite a bit and for some wildcats like 357 Harret, 6 Dasher, and soon to be 8.6. I have not done any neck-turning, I just never really had the need to do it. I do have an annealing machine, and use that for brass on my match guns, I am running a full length die for my dasher and neck bushing and seem to get single digit SD with it, and the rifle has shot under 1/4 MOA at 100, and last 2 times out at long range put down a 4" group at 1191 yards. Anyway, my Father used to fix clocks and has a couple of Watchmakers and clock lathes lying around in his garage. I really do not see why I could not use one of those for neck turning if I need to. I have a ton of 6.5 Federal brass from when I started shooting matches so that is what I plan to use to make 8.6 Blk. Appreciate the insight posted above!
Most any lathe of reasonable size would work, have them show you the basics of the lathes operation, and tool grinding, if you're not familiar with simple lathe operation. It's just so much faster and precise than the hand tools that ware out your hands.
. i just started working a load for my16" 8.6 black. i plan on hunting with it this winter. it gets pretty cold here. hoping to be able to shoot supersonic rounds. but looking to use a temp stable powder. id prefer to use varget. currently have 210gr ttsx and maker 220 gr bullets. i was going to start super low with varget because of the burn rate being so slow. i was thinking 20 grs of varget going up .2 increments.
safe or stupid?
safe or stupid?
Yep, sounds good to me...for what it's worth.
May get up to 31 grs with the 210 gr ... Maybe a couple more grains like 35! ...depending on how deep the copper bullets are seated. Just go slow & check for pressure. I do it quite often with wildcats,
I’m seating them at 2.650 per the 8.6 load data. But will adjust as needed
I just can’t believe there’s no one that has load a good temp stable powder for this Round yet
for supers.
When I looked at the Makers bullets they had some language about not using them in 1-3 twist barrels. Seems a bunch of people are having them open up coming out. They look really good. Just an FYI to be cautious.
ETA: I see they have 8.6 specific bullets so Disregard.
ETA: I see they have 8.6 specific bullets so Disregard.
***No muzzle devices were harmed in the gathering of this data ***
Finally was able to gather some data on the maker 220 gr trex for the 8.6 blkout. there were no pressure signs at max charge weight i loaded of 28gr. going to load some a touch hotter to see about finding another load with some more SPEED behind it. more data will be posted soon. also a few other loads will follow in a seperate post
platform- 16" gas gun
elevation-1407'
temp-69-70 degrees
Powder- AA1680
COAL-2.650
START- 26.0gr @ 1756 fps
26.2gr @ 1808 fps
26.4gr @ 1823 fps
26.6gr @ 1820 fps
26.8gr @ 1826 fps
27.0gr @ 1844 fps
27.2gr @ 1859 fps
27.4gr @ 1859 fps
27.6gr @ 1871 fps
27.8gr @ 1878 fps
28.0gr @ 1894 fps
Finally was able to gather some data on the maker 220 gr trex for the 8.6 blkout. there were no pressure signs at max charge weight i loaded of 28gr. going to load some a touch hotter to see about finding another load with some more SPEED behind it. more data will be posted soon. also a few other loads will follow in a seperate post
platform- 16" gas gun
elevation-1407'
temp-69-70 degrees
Powder- AA1680
COAL-2.650
START- 26.0gr @ 1756 fps
26.2gr @ 1808 fps
26.4gr @ 1823 fps
26.6gr @ 1820 fps
26.8gr @ 1826 fps
27.0gr @ 1844 fps
27.2gr @ 1859 fps
27.4gr @ 1859 fps
27.6gr @ 1871 fps
27.8gr @ 1878 fps
28.0gr @ 1894 fps
Looks like based on the velocity there are at least 2 possible accuracy nodes in that data that might be good to investigate.
Exactly my thoughts and already written down.
but with no pressure signs or other issues I’m going to load a touch hotter to see if i can find a faster node
If Maker says do not use in 8.6 Blackout... Do Not use in 8.6 Blackout...they are bullets for other 338 calibers that do not have a 3 twist!!!..Use only the bullet made for the 8.6 Blackout with subsonic speeds Only!
Cheap 338 lead bullets like Speer 200 gr can be used in the 8.6 blackout 3 twist if kept subsonic, it actually stayed together to 1600 fps..one of the best, for a lead bullet and cheap for plinking... The 285 Eldm must not reach 1400 fps, as it comes apart there. I ran the 225 Hornady copper tipped bullet to 1900 fps, but unimpressive accuracy, and unimpressive velocities for supers....and outside the performance velocities of these bullets which starts at 2500 fps minimum. Might as well use a FMJ as the bullet carries no expansion at 8.6 blackout speeds. Came to the conclusion that if ya want supers, get a 338 Federal.
The best use is plinking or steel with 300 gr Sierra or Berger at longer ranges with good BC.
The 3 twist offers nothing but trouble and does nothing to enhance killing power, it can't the slight rotational energy increase is mathematical so miniscule it makes no difference in the outcome. Just advertising hype. Faxon will not make 7 or 8 twist that is needed, because of licensing agreement...I asked.
The cartridge case has too much capacity for subs and too little for supers.
I just use it for plinking...accuracy was with the 300 gr SMK & 300 gr Berger only...making a fun but expensive plinker.
The "16 twist" Faxon 450 bushmaster has much more to offer with limited range it's only downside. It will get 3000 ft/ lbs with supers, and in subs the 395 gr and 502 gr offer more sub energy for hunting, I run cheap bulk 185 gr pistol bullets to 502 gr lead...And it works in a light AR 15 platform. I have both...
The best use is plinking or steel with 300 gr Sierra or Berger at longer ranges with good BC.
The 3 twist offers nothing but trouble and does nothing to enhance killing power, it can't the slight rotational energy increase is mathematical so miniscule it makes no difference in the outcome. Just advertising hype. Faxon will not make 7 or 8 twist that is needed, because of licensing agreement...I asked.
The cartridge case has too much capacity for subs and too little for supers.
I just use it for plinking...accuracy was with the 300 gr SMK & 300 gr Berger only...making a fun but expensive plinker.
The "16 twist" Faxon 450 bushmaster has much more to offer with limited range it's only downside. It will get 3000 ft/ lbs with supers, and in subs the 395 gr and 502 gr offer more sub energy for hunting, I run cheap bulk 185 gr pistol bullets to 502 gr lead...And it works in a light AR 15 platform. I have both...
Does anyone here know if the paperwork for the 8.6 Blackout has actually been submitted to SAAMI? If so, when? Any estimates on when and if it will be accepted by the organization? This is a cartridge I am interested in for a host of reasons in a bolt action rifle, but I really don’t want to commit the dollars and time until I am pretty sure it will embraced by more ammunition manufacturers.
Q announced on their instagram page that 8.6 had been submitted to SAAMI. I can’t remember exactly when I saw it but I know it has been a couple months since.
Chamber reamers are available, and reloaing dies to match, so it must be standardized...without sending in samples of your 8.6 blockout cartridge, to grind the reamers to.
OK, thanks. From what I understand in takes anywhere from 6 months to well over a year for SAAMI to accept and publish, so I was just trying to ballpark when it will happen. I don't have facebook or instagram... this may be the first time I wish I had.
8.6 blackout Converted brass from any cartridge 308, 270, 30-06, 6.5 Creedmoor all need to be neck turned into the shoulder. 300 Savage is the easiest.
The 30-06 & longer cartridges about .008" must be cut into the shoulder, because the brass is thicker and must be checked & gauged 100% so no spring back of thick brass plus necks are also thinned at the same time.
Then they work great even in an auto loader.
I do the cases with machine tools by the hundreds from all manner of 308 head sized brass, so it's much faster, but hand tools are available, just a lot of work.
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Be sure it’s going to be supported. I know at least from me you’ve got the guarantee that we will always manufacture the ammo, and it will get cheaper as more brass offerings hit the market. (Which there are several big companies releasing)
Ok guys and gals I’m on the edge of selling everything I got in 8.6blackout I have a 12in faxon remage barrel on a tenacity action that I can not get to shoot at all I have 350gr maker bullets and 285gr hornady bullets I want this thing to shoot subs and I have tried all the recommended load data with h110 and 1680 at 2.810 oal and around that and same goes for the 285eldms I have tried all the load data for it and it just won’t shoot nothing it just keeps throwing them all over the place the scope is a arken ep5 I know it’s good as I took it if my dasher to use someone come save me on this 8.6 blk road befor I jump offf thanks
Ps I’m using Q 8.6 brass
Ps I’m using Q 8.6 brass
It’s your barrel. My 8.6 with 285gr ELD-M is subsonic at 100y.
I assume you are getting subsonic velocities but it’s not grouping?
Scope, chassis and everything else are torqued? What kind of set up are you shooting from, sled or bipods? If you’re getting single digit SD & ES, I’m inclined to think it’s not the load and something else.
Has anyone received a custom 8.6 Blackout barrel from Mos-Tek? I saw back earlier in the thread some guys were interested in using a slower twist barrel. I was wondering what the results were on those. I’ve also had better success using aftermarket barrels over the OEM and Q barrels.
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