8.6 Blk reloading info

[45-90]

Shot 2 338s today one 8.6 Blackout and one I chambered 338 RCM AR 10.
But this is about the 8.6 Blackout, got some high velocity figures, for those interested in that.
This is the 6.5 twist barrel as many know I have given up on the 3 twist. So I can shoot cheap bullts fast and accurate and shoot 300 gr subs accurately also.
These are hunting bullets most lead but copper too.
The 250 gr were right at 2200 fps tbe 225 gr at slightly over 2400 fps and the 160 gr Barns at 2800 fps.
The 225 and 230 gr would be a nice pick for larger big game, for energy and range...like the elk that hang out in the area.

 

[tom12.7]

Have you tried faster powders than H335 with the 160 TTSX?

 

[45-90]

Have you tried faster powders than H335 with the 160 TTSX?

I tried a few slower powders, but ya can't seat the bullet, because too much powder in the case. Using QL as a guide to keep the pressure at regular magnum levels with hybrid cases...I might get an extra 100 fps, but most aren't using hybrid cases in the 8.6 bolt gun...autoloaders could approach these loads with caution, and an adjustable gas block.
I'm running 65,000 psi loads in my 338 RCM AR 10.
Depending on how long your barrel is, will have great effect on velocities.
H335 is accurate at 2800 fps in my 6.5 twist barrel, with the 160 gr ttsx, which would be plenty for most hunting in the lower 48.
But for elk or bear the 225 at over 2400 fps puts alot of energy on the target, with better down range ballistices and energy retention....but you can not reach those speeds in a 3 twist barrel. They will blow up immediately after leaving the confines of the physical barrel, damaging your barrel devices permanently, and quite dangerous.
The 285 gr lead will not make 50 yds and blow up at 1400 fps, I know I tried without a muzzle brake.
The 3 twist IMO is totally ridiculous, and not needed.
My 6.5 twist gets excellent accuracy with 300 gr Berger or SMK subs and excellent accuracy at high velocity. Making it a real dual purpose cartridge....
So after spending alot of time and effort on the 8.6 Blackout I find it a pretty good cartridge with the 6.5 twist.
But if you like your 3 twist keep it, but mine has been permanently retired, and now part of has become a 338 RCM.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Shot 2 338s today one 8.6 Blackout and one I chambered 338 RCM AR 10.
But this is about the 8.6 Blackout, got some high velocity figures, for those interested in that.
This is the 6.5 twist barrel as many know I have given up on the 3 twist. So I can shoot cheap bullts fast and accurate and shoot 300 gr subs accurately also.
These are hunting bullets most lead but copper too.
The 250 gr were right at 2200 fps tbe 225 gr at slightly over 2400 fps and the 160 gr Barns at 2800 fps.
The 225 and 230 gr would be a nice pick for larger big game, for energy and range...like the elk that hang out in the area.

Those 160s are zipping.

 

[tom12.7]

I think those are 20" barrel velocities, but with a faster powder the 160 TTSX could pick up a little more speed. I'm getting around 2600 in 12" barrels with hybrid brass using faster powders in the H110/1680/CFE BLK range in bolt and gas guns. It's too much pressure for regular brass, but I'm not seeing pressure issues with the hybrid brass and CCI primers.

 

[SkyScrapin]

I think those are 20" barrel velocities, but with a faster powder the 160 TTSX could pick up a little more speed. I'm getting around 2600 in 12" barrels with hybrid brass using faster powders in the H110/1680/CFE BLK range in bolt and gas guns. It's too much pressure for regular brass, but I'm not seeing pressure issues with the hybrid brass and CCI primers.

Any pointers on where to start with Gorilla Brass, CFE BLK & Hornady CX 185g projectiles out of a 12" bolt gun?

Not expecting anything special, but want to put a couple hundred supers down the pipe before slinging subs.

ETA: Wondering if N110 is a better option for supers. Not much data out there for short bolt guns.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Well got the super sonic test done today for the 8.6 Blackout with a 6.5 twist.
Top velocity for the cheap Speer 200 gr lead bullets was 2604 fps with H335.
AA 2495 =2451 fps
CFE223= 2572 fps
IMR 4198 =2433 fps
2000 MR =2494 fps 4.3 S/D

@45-90

Is this data leveraging a hybrid case?

Posted above this, but venturing a suitable super sonic powder for the 185g CX. Not looking for anything special other than a load to get some supers down the pipe of a 12" 3T.

 

[45-90]

I think those are 20" barrel velocities, but with a faster powder the 160 TTSX could pick up a little more speed. I'm getting around 2600 in 12" barrels with hybrid brass using faster powders in the H110/1680/CFE BLK range in bolt and gas guns. It's too much pressure for regular brass, but I'm not seeing pressure issues with the hybrid brass and CCI primers.

I used QL to help decide which powder, at 65,000 psi not to 80,000 psi for my hybrid cases, to have a safety margin ...and if I relate to others in the autoloader area they may work up to similar velocities.
The new Alpha Munitions 8.6 brass will hande 65,000 psi and so will the AR 10 ...not that every load has to be at maximum.
According to QL you're at 80,000 psi which is a Gustine not knowing the chamber or seating depth etc.
Hybrid cases do not show the case indicators of high pressure...you could be at 90,000 psi...if the gets stiff lift or hard to open thats where you are, stressing the acttion. Heard it said the hybrid cases will handle 100,000 psi but there is noway to test that for the average person.
There is a video of the Ultimate Reloader channel running the new Alpha hard brass cases with a Bat action to over 100,000 psi.
Accuracy went south at 103,000 psi and a slight mark on the Alpha brass.

QL predicted you would gain around 70 fps in 12" by going to H335 at your higher pressures in the short barrel...
And I would loose about 100 fps with the faster powders like H110 and AA 1680, because of barrel lenght.
But I haven't actually shot them.

 

[45-90]

@45-90

Is this data leveraging a hybrid case?

Posted above this, but venturing a suitable super sonic powder for the 185g CX. Not looking for anything special other than a load to get some supers down the pipe of a 12" 3T.

I use both reformed brass and hybrid cases, have gone to hybrid exclusively now.
I run them at max magnum pressures of 65,000 psi, and no higher according to QL which will give at least some guidance...and AR 10 capable.
You have to know your exact case capacity, brass or hybrid, bullet length, seating depth to get anywhere near an acurate outcome, for the 185s, as copper bullets have double the start pressure spike, it must be taken into account every time.

 

[SkyScrapin]

I use both reformed brass and hybrid cases, have gone to hybrid exclusively now.
I run them at max magnum pressures of 65,000 psi, and no higher according to QL which will give at least some guidance...and AR 10 capable.
You have to know your exact case capacity, brass or hybrid, bullet length, seating depth to get anywhere near an acurate outcome, for the 185s, as copper bullets have double the start pressure spike, it must be taken into account every time.

Agreed.

I had a QL license, but lost the key. Rarely doing any time of load development on wildcats these days. 8.6 being the exception which is new enough that internet searches aren't proving helpful. This thread has more content than most, thanks to you fellas.

Thinking about starting just above Subsonic load data for CFE BLK, working up into super sonic territory. Seems like a reasonably logical way to get started.

Peak pressure & velocity are usually not what works in short barrels. Results in rather ugly ES in my experience. Usually the moderate loads offer best accuracy and consistency even if not a complete burn.

We'll see how things go and make adjustments.

 

[45-90]

For 8.6 Blackout and 185 gr copper bullet and brass cases, AR 10 compatible.
AA1680 33.6 gr
H110 30.2 gr
CFE BLK 37.1 gr
Approximate max loads to "work up to" with common powders used. Final velocities are within 40 fps between them...depending on barrel length, chamber, bullet seating depth which is critical in small volume cases like the 8.6, this was set at 2.700"
For informational purposes

 

[SkyScrapin]

For 8.6 Blackout and 185 gr copper bullet and brass cases, AR 10 compatible.
AA1680 33.6 gr
H110 30.2 gr
CFE BLK 37.1 gr
Approximate max loads to "work up to" with common powders used. Final velocities are within 40 fps between them...depending on barrel length, chamber, bullet seating depth which is critical in small volume cases like the 8.6, this was set at 2.700"
For informational purposes

Thanks for the suggestions. This is a 12” bolt.

 

[LVLAaron]

8.6 Blk. Subsonic Work Up UPDATE:

25 yard indoor range, linear compensator from Tromix.
Measurements taken with a MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph

FPS = 5 shots averaged

Sierra SMK 300 gr.

Powder: Accurate 1680 16.5 gr 1088 FPS

Powder: TAC 18.0 gr 1084 FPS

Powder: CFE BLK 17.0 gr 1088 FPS

OAL: 2.670”

I have decided to go with TAC. The groups were better and more consistant. Accurate 1680 didn't always lock the bolt back at this powder level. This is a 16" barrel with carbine length full gas. Groups printed about 1/2" lower than supersonic at 25 yards.

I used nickel plated cases that I formed from Federal 6.5 Creedmoor SRP. I annealed them before cutting and sizing, then turned the case neck to fit the 8.6 Sheridan gauge. There was no damage to the fired cases.

USE THIS INFORMATION ONLY AS A GUIDE! Your results may vary.

Thanks for this. Had nearly the exact same results. I was using the faxon/Q data for the 300's and was chasing my tail with only 500-600 fps

 

[DRWilson]

Shot 2 338s today one 8.6 Blackout and one I chambered 338 RCM AR 10.
But this is about the 8.6 Blackout, got some high velocity figures, for those interested in that.
This is the 6.5 twist barrel as many know I have given up on the 3 twist. So I can shoot cheap bullts fast and accurate and shoot 300 gr subs accurately also.
These are hunting bullets most lead but copper too.
The 250 gr were right at 2200 fps tbe 225 gr at slightly over 2400 fps and the 160 gr Barns at 2800 fps.
The 225 and 230 gr would be a nice pick for larger big game, for energy and range...like the elk that hang out in the area.

Just to confirm that these figures are with regular brass?

 

[Floridapanhandle]

Got out this weekend and shot my latest loads.
12" Faxon 1-3 twist
Gorilla brass, 300 gr SMK Rem large rifle primer.

Accurate 1680
5 rounds each
14.8 gr - 947.9 fps
14.9 gr - 958.2 fps
15.0 gr - 973.7 fps
The best standard deviation was the 15.0 gr 5.2 fps

Bolt cycles and locks back on the last round on all loads tested.

Going to load five more each at 15.5 gr and 16.0 gr.

 

[Floridapanhandle]

Now I really need to find a lighter cast bullet, the 315gr cast I have been shooting have been flying straight and not exploding at up to 1200fps out of my bolt action. If I had some of those steel headed cases I would try to push them harder. So where did you get them from?

Greg

Have you tried shooting any out of a gas gun? Are casting your own bullets or buying them?

 

[45-90]

Just to confirm that these figures are with regular brass?

The 338 RCM is reformed 6.5 PRC brass.
The 8.5 Blackout is now mostly hybrid cases, but they are are held to magnum rifle pressure, according to QL, in order to give a cushion when experiencing with alot of different powders in the 8.6 blackouts.
I am now running a bolt action with a 6.5 twist, where the data is now collected, on the 6.5 twist barrel, where I can run any bullet at max velocity or subs without any fear of blow up, plus excellent accuracy.

I have scrapped the Faxon 3 twist project as unworkable, after buying into it early, in its development.
The Faxon 3 twist cost me hundreds in damages, a new muzzle brake and a new magnetospeed bayonet.
Using their early load data!..it that took many months to delete, after many of us were bringing it to their attention, ...after many complaints, that their load data was way over pressure and destructive. They finally took that super sonic lead data off their site.
I was skeptical of the 3 twist hype...but was curious enough to give it an honest try.
You must work up to any load data for your rifle and its chamber, seating depth changes pressures quickly in the small capacity 8.6 case.

 

[DRWilson]

Will the bonded bullets come apart in a 1:5 twist. I get mine built any week from Most-tek and need to sort out if I go 6.5 or 5. Paul, from maker suggested I go 5 as bullets are expanding nicely in that twist rate. But he also said either will work. If I play with bonded bullets like you guys are, I just don’t want to blow up a can.

 

[45-90]

Will the bonded bullets come apart in a 1:5 twist. I get mine built any week from Most-tek and need to sort out if I go 6.5 or 5. Paul, from maker suggested I go 5 as bullets are expanding nicely in that twist rate. But he also said either will work. If I play with bonded bullets like you guys are, I just don’t want to blow up a can.

I do not know about the 5 twist.
I don't own that one, but anything with a lead core will blow up in the 3 twist.
Will it do so in a 5 twist?
You'd have to shoot them without a muzzle device to see if they blow up as soon as they leave the confines of the barrel or 40 yds down range, at the velocity you desire to shoot them plus a little extra for insurance.
I do own the 6.5 twist and it shoots everything I've tried, with no failures.
Supers in any lead bullet, bonded or not, as fast as the 8.6 can shoot them, with excellent accuracy.
Cheap lead hunting bullets, so you can afford to shoot it...without worry.
Velocities on the heels of the 338 Federal with lead bullets. Plus excellent accuracy with subs. The 6.5 twist is very versatile.

 

[DRWilson]

What sub loads are people running not using 1680? and not using hybrid brass?

 

[45-90]

What sub loads are people running not using 1680? and not using hybrid brass?

Most 1680 loads have higher S/D in velocity than IMR 4198...my guns.
My favorite load is Berger 300 gr with 15.8 gr of IMR 4198 a S/ D of 9.4 for auto loader, "standard" case.

I use a 6.5 twist, in a bolt gun now, so I don't have to worry about cycling the action.
But at 495 fps I did have to make sure the bullet left the barrel...as I tried a large pistol primer for ignition over a large rifle...it was a powder dependent experiment, with a pistol primer dropping velocity as much as 300 fps.

 

[GregP42]

Have you tried shooting any out of a gas gun? Are casting your own bullets or buying them?

I cast my own out of wheel weights then powder coat and water drop. I have been shooting them in my bolt action, haven't tried them in my AR10 yet, will have to try that next time.

Greg

 

[SigSauerM7]

Is it possible to use hybrid cases in AR's with beefier bolt heads and go to 65-70k psi safely?

Get the 130gr M80A1 up to 3400 FPS and 200gr pills up to 2700 FPS.

6.8 SPC 140gr up to 2700 FPS. Does not seem crazy to me.

 

[45-90]

Is it possible to use hybrid cases in AR's with beefier bolt heads and go to 65-70k psi safely?

Get the 130gr M80A1 up to 3400 FPS and 200gr pills up to 2700 FPS.

6.8 SPC 140gr up to 2700 FPS. Does not seem crazy to me.

I run ARs at a maximum of 65,000 psi which is magnum pressure, with brass or hybrid cases... for 308 bolt heads AR 10.

Going thinner than 5.56 on the bolt face of the AR 15 makes things even worse for those cartridges.
There are no beefier bolts for many AR cartridges with the thinner bolts from the Valkyrie, to 6.8, on to the Grendel, and 6 and 22 , ARCs to the 450 bushmaster. You are out of luck with these Autos in the AR 15 platform by design.
You have to go to a bolt gun with these cartridges, to take advantage of higher pressures.
It's why Hornady limits the pressure on the 6mm ARC, AR 15 bolts, and seperates it from the bolt gun data..it was not the case but the AR 15 was designed around the 5.56 as the mitary cartridge, not intended to be anything but, the 5.56 ... by the orginial designer.

 

[45-90]

I use cast bullets in AR 15 450 bushmaster for a heavy weight bullet try Lee 502 grain a .457" dia sized to .452" this is for 16 twist barrels not 24 twist. Works well and I added a thick recoil pad.
Probably not a viable alternative with a 3 twist, being so fast a twist the lead being soft, it would be hard to grab the rifling and spin the bullet instantly...leaving lead smears and pieces behind in the barrel. Accuracy would be limited number of shots if at all. But try it for yourself and see.
I have a 6.5 twist that would be a better test vehicle...if I had a heavy 338 mould...I'd load up a few...out of curiosity.

 

[Mike6158]

I had pretty good sub performance with N133 and the 280gr Barnes LRX BT. Unfortunately I had Chronograph (user) issues. The 12" Faxon barrel is such a pile of crap that I suspended testing until my new barrel comes. AR10 platform with a Dead Air Primal btw. I have other tests beside this one. N133 for subs gives you a wide range of powder charges.

 

[45-90]

I had pretty good sub performance with N133 and the 280gr Barnes LRX BT. Unfortunately I had Chronograph (user) issues. The 12" Faxon barrel is such a pile of crap that I suspended testing until my new barrel comes. AR10 platform with a Dead Air Primal btw. I have other tests beside this one. N133 for subs gives you a wide range of powder charges. View attachment 8404957

I believe you are correct, I did the same thing with my early Faxon barrel ...suspended testing.
I felt I was just wasting components.
I really like my new 6.5 twist barrel, it suits me.
Your new barrel has gotta be much better.

 

[MSBRPT]

What sub loads are people running not using 1680? and not using hybrid brass?

Best results I got so far was with Lil’ Gun and N110 with CCI 450 primers. I have a handful of other powders I’ve been meaning to try. I’ve been using converted SRP 6.5 CM alpha brass and Lapua Scenars (250 and 300gr). SMKs weren’t as consistent for me.