DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
My thoughts exactly as I was reading, growing up it was chevy chevy chevy, I went Ford just because and low and behold a better mousetrap is born, Sure the 700SA is great but only because it was cheap and everybody had one not necessarily because it was better.Yes, the Rem700 has always been a price point rifle, meaning that cost to manufacture was really low. I used to buy stripped short action receivers for $53 and bolt bodies for slightly more; all in to start a build on the action was around $120 or so.
The retail price of rifles from Remington was considerably lower than all the competition, which is what led to the popularity, not the quality, features, and so on. Based on shear numbers out there, just like the Rem 870, Ruger 10/22, AR15's, Glock's, is what has led to mass adoption by consumers. They're cheap, parts are cheap and plentiful and one can buy the stuff anywhere.
Editing to add, the Rem700 is also easy to copy.
And, @carbonbased, so help me, if you bring up the LS vs Coyote debate....don't even....Coyote all the way.
MB
Y'all shoulda heard the comments the first time I brought a 1.250 strait barrel to a match, now look at what is popular.
This is very odd..
VGW supposedly shits the bed and closes shop then ALL of a sudden MB starts another company.
If this wasn’t a set up and not in the works for awhile I’d be very surprised.
Go ahead and add this to the list of conspiracies.
VGW supposedly shits the bed and closes shop then ALL of a sudden MB starts another company.
If this wasn’t a set up and not in the works for awhile I’d be very surprised.
Go ahead and add this to the list of conspiracies.
And Epstein didn't kill himself.
Actually, I'm quiet and very patient....and timing is everything.
MB
So now, to focus on some key areas that appeared to be off-topic (Rem700, pre-64 Win, LS vs Coyote), but were dropped in to serve a larger conversation. Now it's time to add the next part.
The reason I used @carbonbased as a launch pad isn't only because he's a funny Dude and I knew he'd get it, but instead, because someone used the most over used word in the gun industry: INNOVATE.
If anything is done under the guise of innovation that doesn't properly serve this equation:
Accuracy and precision are two measures of observational error.
Accuracy is how close a given set of observations are to their true value.
Precision is how close the observations are to each other.
Is it really innovation?
MB
The reason I used @carbonbased as a launch pad isn't only because he's a funny Dude and I knew he'd get it, but instead, because someone used the most over used word in the gun industry: INNOVATE.
If anything is done under the guise of innovation that doesn't properly serve this equation:
Accuracy and precision are two measures of observational error.
Accuracy is how close a given set of observations are to their true value.
Precision is how close the observations are to each other.
Is it really innovation?
MB
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Having spent my career building complex software, many many times the answer is obvious after having spent many many many hours/days/months doing it the wrong way. But getting to that obvious answer required detailed knowledge of the system and a lot of work. I had a saying, simple is not easy, it is very very hard. But it is obvious once it is found.
Innovation to me is like that. Understanding the system in depth and being able to apply the right answer to the problem. Not bandaids, but understanding root cause and fixing the real problems. Sometimes that is just the obvious answer once found.
Shower thoughts: i wonder if there is any measurable benefit to striking the whole rim of a case vs the 1 or 2 FP solutions we've had.
Also something flat bottomed and a trigger hanger system so the action can be bonded would be nice. Despite the results unbonded centerfire can produce I still believe a flat bottomed bonded action has much less chance of shifting. No data to back that up, just my personal feelings.
Also something flat bottomed and a trigger hanger system so the action can be bonded would be nice. Despite the results unbonded centerfire can produce I still believe a flat bottomed bonded action has much less chance of shifting. No data to back that up, just my personal feelings.
There is also a "usability" component to the solution: if it's too hard to use, what effect does that have on marketability / market uptake?
I have met... too many... Vudoo buyers who loudly proclaimed the rifle was Garbage because it wouldn't feed. Damn near every time, the complainer was pushing the follower button all the way down and dumping in rounds, with the expected result of rim lock and misfeeds. This is not to discount real issues associated with some R700 stocks/chassis that simply would not hold magazines in the REQUIRED position; my original MPA chassis was one of those - and Phil Cashin fixed it, as Mike has described.
So, one of Mike's challenges is to "innovate" a feeding solution that's innovative/accurate/precise AND as idiot-proof as possible, while still being marketable. The reality is, while the R700 footprint may not be the optimal accuracy/precision solution, it has damn sure sold a crap ton of Vudoos, Rim-Xs, and Bergaras.
Usability of a product, regardless of the vertical, (guns, software, furniture, anything ) HAS to be a primary focus for long term success. It also has to work. Get both.
Lol wut?
At first glance I thought you’re were talking about coyote shooting and “LS” was some acronym for wild game, like (longus stinki-skunkus)
That corvette/mustang convo must’ve been with someone else. Unless it was the funniest thing ever. Then it was me. Lol
I do rapidly forget stuff…so might be my brain.
We did have a convo in which I accidentally reinvented some gun haha man I’m an idiot
Btw for more archived funny Road Runner latinus phrasius go here:
It is as painful to read that every time someone types it as it is reading the thousands of complaints about "feed problems" from the morons that can't load a magazine properly. We have to stop using the term/phase "idiot proof". Idiot Resistant is the best we can ever hope for.
Excited to see what you have on the way @RAVAGE88.
Lower magazine follower, put a round in, let rise to top. Repeat nine more times. it seems so hard doesn't it? Like maybe one would think that it would take a full team of Elon Musk' best engineers from SpaceX to load a Vudoo magazine.
Fired 3000 + rounds since April 2024. One misfeed period.
The most idiot-proof mag I’ve run across is the double-stack AR type. Just push round straight down. Although occasionally I’ll mess that up too by pushing the round down when part of it is overhanging the mag, but it’s obvious and I fix it immediately.
CZ 527 17 Hornet mags can be a little bitch, all around, however. That’s a rimmed CF cartridge and the shape of it plus the rim plus the spring pressure and limited area to depress the loaded round down all add up to suck.
Due to the round’s shape, the 22 Hornet loads a little easier in the same mag (CZ eventually made one mag for both the Hornets).
I suspect that the AR type of mag is a no-go in 22 rimfire, and I’m no fan of AR’s in general (bolt-gun master race), but hey. Don’t know if Stoner came up with that mag idea or if it was an earlier idea.
But MP5’s and AR’s sure are slick to load.
CZ 527 17 Hornet mags can be a little bitch, all around, however. That’s a rimmed CF cartridge and the shape of it plus the rim plus the spring pressure and limited area to depress the loaded round down all add up to suck.
Due to the round’s shape, the 22 Hornet loads a little easier in the same mag (CZ eventually made one mag for both the Hornets).
I suspect that the AR type of mag is a no-go in 22 rimfire, and I’m no fan of AR’s in general (bolt-gun master race), but hey. Don’t know if Stoner came up with that mag idea or if it was an earlier idea.
But MP5’s and AR’s sure are slick to load.
Well not exactly. In Vietnam, we dare not load more than 18 rounds in a 20 round magazine nor load more than 28 rounds in our one and only precious 30 round magazine that we were so lovingly graced with by the powers that be. Like they must have been saving all the 30 round magazines for those fellows guarding their gated /double walled compounds downtown Saigon. After all, without all those precious fellows back in the rear, guarding their mint juleps and geisha girls how could we have ever won the FUCKING WAR!
Oh, loading to capacity was a sure way to get a jam.
Oh! I knew that was par for the course on an MP5, but not an AR. Huh.
Anyway, just talking about the physical act of loading a round, not the whole process until max. Good to know, though. I’m def more of a bolt-gun guy.
We’re off track, but that’s not necessarily true these days.
Carbonbased ,
I had thought about the ar 22 mags for the/a 22 bolt rifle of some sort , a little shorter axially , narrower , not as tall maybe , it seems to be a good idea ,,,,,,change the retention method from ar to a latch , just never got around to it
I had thought about the ar 22 mags for the/a 22 bolt rifle of some sort , a little shorter axially , narrower , not as tall maybe , it seems to be a good idea ,,,,,,change the retention method from ar to a latch , just never got around to it
Seems like MB saw this coming a mile away and was ready to go when the timing was right. Rare is any successfull venture down to chance timing...more like planned timing.
If you were invested in a company (time or money) and were sort of shown the door, knowing that company was going downhill and had the means to pick up when you knew they were inevitably going to fail, would you sit on the sidelines waiting, or would you get ready to go so when that company did fail, you'd be ready to go? Because if you're not, someone else will.
Getting off the track seems to be my specialty.
Magazines? The old Savage / Anschutz metal single stack mags always seemed to work. (as much as I hated them) However, doing mag changes would be misery. So, and maybe thinking out of the box (no pun intended) what if an AW style double stack might feed better, (if and only IF it could be made to feed without shaving lead.) A hard task to accomplish.
Reading what Mike says above about feeding and round presentation to the bolt, I suspect that any DSDF (Dual Stack Dual Feed) magazine will present problems for .22 LR.
CZ owners will tell you that CZ knows how to do it. And I’m one of them. Maybe because as mentioned, it’s a proprietary platform and they control all the parts.
I’m not sure if those dropping CZs into a chassis are having issues with feeding as I’ve not seen it so far. Not that I think it can’t happen, I just haven’t seen it.
Yeah, my CZ 455 Ultra Lux feeds pretty awesomely. And the mags are pretty easy to load.
Because those CZ chassis are made for CZ Rimfire rifles. All the chassis and stocks that the 700 platform actions are getting dropped into are made for centerfire rifles so as I mentioned earlier why the mag height and placement is so important.
I apologize if this is sufficiently off topic to be considered "off the rails".
I have a vague memory of MB initially working with a group with the moniker "40X Mafia" or similar, converting single shot 40X ( 700 based action ) bench guns to repeaters. If my recollection is correct this was initiated some time before the popularity of PRS rimfire. I am not sure if there were specific competitive intentions there may have been for the conversions. ( I'm sure Mike can clarify ). If the intension was to build an understudy trainer capable of shooting cheap ammo for their PRIMARY centrefire gun then it was an out of the park home run!
I write the rest of this feeling about as aprehensive as sitting on a depth charge !
That initial and subsequent work has spawned a host of the most competitive PRS rim fire rifles the world has ever seen. Have you ever thought that might be due to oversight rather than functonal design.???????
I too bought into the appeal ( I agree with MBs above statement about maketeers vs gunmakers ) and have had a number of 700 platform builds. Not quite like putting lipstick on a pig but along the same lines. It seems to me that we got so caught up in the hype of building a duplicate of our centre fire guns we lost focus on what the REAL purpose was for MOST of the rim fire community ! We have ended up with .22 rifles in chassis that are so disproportinate ( due to the inordinate size of the mags ) that we are obliged to add balancing weights that we line up to buy at $75/$100 per pound ?! The forum threads on feeding issues through those mags are legion. Not only have we bought into the concept of very expensive add on weights we also often need 1.25" barrels to augment them.
We have develped shooting techniques based on free recoil and triggers in the ounces sitting on pillows that may weigh 15 pounds!
Part of this diatribe is due to the fact that I started my shooting journey as a 3P shooter. I still admire that group as being the very best rifle shooters inthe world. They adhere to a rifle weight limit of about 17 pounds and shoot at a target at 50 meters that has a 10 ring that measures very clost to .400". The scores shot on the original target were so high that they had to put a dot in the middle of the 10 so that a decimal was added to the 10 the closer you were to the exact centre.
I know what I am about to suggest is like a salmon swimming in the opposite directon to its peers but is there a possibility that we could rethink about what is the ideal "Rimfire PRS Rifle". One that can acheive a balance point in front of the mag with moderate weight and fed through a magazine designed to fit the cartridge rather than the action. I accept that it would me forgoing the conveinence of having all of that "stuff" available for a 700 action . I also aknowledge how difficult it would be to change direction when the trajectory is so well established.
It is my hope that this new company led by a brilliant individual can come up with something that may inspire us towards a change in what has become convential thinking regarding our beloved sport.
My best regards to all,
Daniel
I have a vague memory of MB initially working with a group with the moniker "40X Mafia" or similar, converting single shot 40X ( 700 based action ) bench guns to repeaters. If my recollection is correct this was initiated some time before the popularity of PRS rimfire. I am not sure if there were specific competitive intentions there may have been for the conversions. ( I'm sure Mike can clarify ). If the intension was to build an understudy trainer capable of shooting cheap ammo for their PRIMARY centrefire gun then it was an out of the park home run!
I write the rest of this feeling about as aprehensive as sitting on a depth charge !
That initial and subsequent work has spawned a host of the most competitive PRS rim fire rifles the world has ever seen. Have you ever thought that might be due to oversight rather than functonal design.???????
I too bought into the appeal ( I agree with MBs above statement about maketeers vs gunmakers ) and have had a number of 700 platform builds. Not quite like putting lipstick on a pig but along the same lines. It seems to me that we got so caught up in the hype of building a duplicate of our centre fire guns we lost focus on what the REAL purpose was for MOST of the rim fire community ! We have ended up with .22 rifles in chassis that are so disproportinate ( due to the inordinate size of the mags ) that we are obliged to add balancing weights that we line up to buy at $75/$100 per pound ?! The forum threads on feeding issues through those mags are legion. Not only have we bought into the concept of very expensive add on weights we also often need 1.25" barrels to augment them.
We have develped shooting techniques based on free recoil and triggers in the ounces sitting on pillows that may weigh 15 pounds!
Part of this diatribe is due to the fact that I started my shooting journey as a 3P shooter. I still admire that group as being the very best rifle shooters inthe world. They adhere to a rifle weight limit of about 17 pounds and shoot at a target at 50 meters that has a 10 ring that measures very clost to .400". The scores shot on the original target were so high that they had to put a dot in the middle of the 10 so that a decimal was added to the 10 the closer you were to the exact centre.
I know what I am about to suggest is like a salmon swimming in the opposite directon to its peers but is there a possibility that we could rethink about what is the ideal "Rimfire PRS Rifle". One that can acheive a balance point in front of the mag with moderate weight and fed through a magazine designed to fit the cartridge rather than the action. I accept that it would me forgoing the conveinence of having all of that "stuff" available for a 700 action . I also aknowledge how difficult it would be to change direction when the trajectory is so well established.
It is my hope that this new company led by a brilliant individual can come up with something that may inspire us towards a change in what has become convential thinking regarding our beloved sport.
My best regards to all,
Daniel
Wow, you guys took this seriously and nothing mentioned is off-track at all. Although, based on conventional decorum, @lash would be correct, but I started it based on a few thoughts and you guys ran with it. This is how product development concepts are gathered in a focus group setting and you guys participated organically without any direct questions being asked. Pure awesomeness.
Yes @carbonbased, snnneeeeeaaakyyy .
MB
Yes @carbonbased, snnneeeeeaaakyyy
.MB
Ok, the solution for springs is squared away and a good portion of the small parts solution is moving along well. I'm continuing to work through the remainder of small parts, but see that going just as smoothly. Ultimately, getting closer to an inventory of all small parts.
Question: are any of you guys interested in any of the bolt knobs that Vudoo supplied to screw on to the Vudoo bolt handle? How about the DBMs the Vudoo offered and I designed?
MB
Question: are any of you guys interested in any of the bolt knobs that Vudoo supplied to screw on to the Vudoo bolt handle? How about the DBMs the Vudoo offered and I designed?
MB
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Accuracy International swept bolt knob or Sterk Tikka swept knob (master race?)
Never felt an Annie.
Sorry, I wasn't specific. Bolt knobs as in the selection offered by Vudoo that screw onto the Vudoo bolt handle and the DBM offered by Vudoo that I designed.
MB
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Ah. Dang.
I’ll just meander to the corner and gaze wistfully at my swept (bolt) knobs.
Not a weird question and certainly valid in concept, but no, I haven't and I won't. I'm excited about the clean, unencumbered reset.@RAVAGE88 -- kind of a weird question... but... just out of curiosity --> will you / have you reached out to any "current" or former VGW employee's to see if you could scoop them up and get'em back to work (since they wouldn't really need much training!)?
MB
Because of the possibility that the last few rounds could be forced past the feed lips. Less stack means less load and the constant force could be a greater mechanical advantage for the spring vs the ability of the feed lips to constrain the force.
MB
Sorry Dude, I just edited my question about bolt knobs and DBMs because I was wearily ambiguous.Sterk for my Tikkas. Didn't realize I needed one until I got one.
MB
I actually just found a video of Mike feed testing my 40x action way back when he did my conversion. *history*
Gotcha. Just asking as I'm working to get a handle on what inventory to have on-hand. So far, it's all the small parts that makeup the action assembly. Other parts like bolts knobs and DBMs may not be of much interest.I’m not familiar with with the voodoo setup at this point. I’m a…very…slow adopter these days since my budget shrunk.
MB
Post up some pics of the bolt knobs to jog some memories. Will the bolt knobs fit both single shot and repeater??
Never hurts to have a spare, so yeah I'll take one or two. What needs to happen now. LOl
The CZ mags lock into a mag well that's bolted to the bottom of the action....not the stock or chassis. This may be one reason for less feeding problems.
Would it not be possible to size the spring appropriately? Surely a constant force spring that has less force at minimum stack (one round) than a wound spring at full stack could still have enough force to feed reliably. Especially with lightweight rounds such as 22.
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