There's no reason for an argument at all. The definition came after your follow-up.
DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
FYI I found a company in NC that does DLC coating, DNA Firearms Systems. I am going to send them my CZ 455 bolt as a test to see how well it comes out. I can always replace the 455 bolt if it does not turn out okay, not the case with the V22S bolt. The cost is minimum $100 and they said they have done multiple Vudoos and they have good reviews.
The early guns were Salt Bth Nitride, which for a time, worked out okay. The switch was made to Cerakote after chronic fall out due to finish imperfections.
MB
Brock,
Is there any reason your activity in this thread (and maybe forum wide) has to be overtly contentious? Like I've said before, there's a lot of other internet out there that will entertain you, at least until you get banned. I certainly don't mind your contributions if they're constructive, but so far, you've been more of a nuisance than a welcomed contributor.
Also, since I've not received an email about the parts you said you're interested in, I don't mind emailing you. Do you prefer I use your Gmail or Hotmail?
MB
All things equal DLC is a superior coating for actions and bolts. It is very hard, low coefficient of friction, and resistance to abrasion. However the surface finish of the substrate prior to coating is a very important factor to consider in the end result.
I wasn't being contentious. In fact, if you read the post you quoted, I was trying to be the opposite of contentious. Definitely not hotmail. I don't even know if that exists anymore.
Tell me more! What does the state of the pre-coat surface finish need to be?
Depending on the part, at least a 32 Ra finish, but I look at Rz as well. You can pass a 32 Ra, but have visible profile outages that technically, would still pass the 32 Ra (or better) call out.
@Mechdesigner may have more input on this.
MB
Long time NRA small bore prone competitor, typical weekend match is a 3200, 320 shots for record plus sighters, you take a brick of ammunition to a match.
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This. There are many people who do not know or understand Ra and Rz and the difference and purposes between them.
See, now you are speaking my language. My whole involvement in shooting sports was that exactly. What kind of accuracy are those shooters demanding, and what results from the test center with those rifles?
I would add that sliding surfaces (ie bolt and body) should have a different surface finish to keep the friction coefficient down. Having both surfaces at <8 Ra would actually make for a stickier bolt throw as the interfacial tension of the mating surfaces increase as the surfaces get finer.
Good point^^^^.
For the sake of the question and the application of DLC, the V-22 bolt assembly components are finished such that they're a good host for DLC. If the parts are currently Cerakoted, ask the coater if they'll blast and prep. Some do, some don't.
MB
I’m stupid. A brick of ammo is 500 rounds, right? So 320 rds + sighters makes sense. But what’s the “3200” mean in your paragraph? Lingo?
Ah. I figured it was some lingo thing outside of round count.
I’m not privy to those details, but the internet suggests 1.14 inches at 100 meters is the smallest group fired at a Lapua facility. I can’t confirm, but this is like over upwards of 25 or more shots.
I’ll dig a little more for better info.
I want to say I've seen groups at the test center in the area of 10mm at 50m for 25 or more shots, so definitely out of rifles considered to be a cut above.
MB
Based on my experience with a gun smith who had chamber many Olympic 22s, but would have ejection/reliability issues for PRS matches (dirt, dust, rain) I'd say not very.
It's like the guys who say their Savage never has any issues, yet in match where they shoot 100-200 rounds the gun shits itself multiple times.
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If straying from R700 style, surely Tikka is the only other option for a well supported aftermarket.
User swappable barrels would be a nice feature, AI quicklock style is best but I'm guessing patented.
Definitely need to offer Tikka Sterk Swept/AI swept bolt handles.
Actually just make an AI style rimfire, that'll definitely win for style points.
30 round AW mags would be cool while I'm dreaming....
User swappable barrels would be a nice feature, AI quicklock style is best but I'm guessing patented.
Definitely need to offer Tikka Sterk Swept/AI swept bolt handles.
Actually just make an AI style rimfire, that'll definitely win for style points.
30 round AW mags would be cool while I'm dreaming....
The CZ 457 ecosphere is also really popular. Reliable and available mags, highly accurate MTR barrels, short bolt throw, and sensible cost make them a really common choice, and many chassis makers support them as well. Vudoo and CZ take up the lion's share of the firing line at most of the NRL22 / PRS22 matches I see these days.
Tikka magazine design is schematically worth studying.
I won't go into the many benfits of the design, but its basically near perfect.
If you could just build the Tikka mags at Grey-Ops like quality, and combine that with a Vudoo-quality fire control unit, you'd have a hell of a rifle.
Not in a position to say one way or the other, but I’m perfectly willing to believe you that the design (dimensionally) is great. But I recall Zane Hermann saying he throws them away after 500 rds because they wear out so fast.
I think this is what you’re hinting at with the Gray Ops quality bit?
My Tikka CTR mags bent out of shape within 500-600 rounds. Slapping the mag in during a quick mag change causes them to deform at the lips. If the were made of AI or Grey-Ops quality then I’d be willing to look into them.
I have spoke to Brad and Zane about the Tikka mags and can confirm they are a disposable item 500-800 rounds and they are trashed. I designed a billet magazine for the Tikka and have it moving into production now.
Attachments
Its not just the t1x "magazine" unit itself, but the mechanical engineering and approach. I'm just talking about the form factors, ergonomics, and impact on the rifle's design and integration with the chasis and its CF footprint etc. Again, that doesn't mean Tikka t1x is a better rifle than a vudoo or its feeding / fire control is perfect, etc.
10 points per shot, 3200 is the possible score, a 3200 with 320X's is perfection
I was taking for granted magazines would be AICS pattern, in which case Tikka makes the most sense.
But yes, if straying from AICS, CZ mags make a lot of sense.
Unless I'm mistaken there was some discussion about going away from, or atleast not necessarily doing an R700 foot print action.
The main reason to stick with R700 is there is the largest aftermarket options for R700, however if you did stray from that Tikka would have to be 2nd best aftermarket options (chassis, stock, triggers etc).
I'm assuming any action foot print that is used will take AICS magazines, while T1x magazines are not AICS a new 22lr that was Tikka based could be made with AICS in mind.
It would seem AICS magazines are going to be the standard for 22lr, with even the Europeans (Victrix and Anschutz) are going that direction.
If that all makes sense.
We have had great success in getting 11.5 - 12 mm 10 shot groups out of quite a few rifles (13 twist 1.250 Mullerworks). I think once ammo starts to get consistent, we will see better 10 shot and 20-shot groups. 20mm 100 yard groups are attainable and all this with Repeaters, some Vudoo and Rim x. I think the barrels have come a long way, we have certainly learned a few things to gain repeated accuracy. I would be curious how much better the results could get with a precision-minded specific action. I have one 10.9 MM single-shot Vudoo with a 1.250 16 twist Mullerworks. Maybe Mike can pull something out of his hat to see how good a .22 can be.
I have been told By David Tubb that his friend Lones wigger had a legit 6 mm .22 and that was a ways back so either ammo has gone to crap which I suspect is the case or???
@RAVAGE88 you're up bud
Yo Dude, I'm here.We have had great success in getting 11.5 - 12 mm 10 shot groups out of quite a few rifles (13 twist 1.250 Mullerworks). I think once ammo starts to get consistent, we will see better 10 shot and 20-shot groups. 20mm 100 yard groups are attainable and all this with Repeaters, some Vudoo and Rim x. I think the barrels have come a long way, we have certainly learned a few things to gain repeated accuracy. I would be curious how much better the results could get with a precision-minded specific action. I have one 10.9 MM single-shot Vudoo with a 1.250 16 twist Mullerworks. Maybe Mike can pull something out of his hat to see how good a .22 can be.
I have been told By David Tubb that his friend Lones wigger had a legit 6 mm .22 and that was a ways back so either ammo has gone to crap which I suspect is the case or???
@RAVAGE88 you're up bud
Since @Tokay444 and @jbell (jbell has owned and maybe still owns some of the nicest 22s I know of, including a Sauer) were 100% correct to mention the Feinwerkbau, Elmiger & Grunig, Walther, Anschutz, etc., I've revisited a few things I've discussed with the U.S. Olympic Training Ctr and AMU International Small Bore guys. The bottom line is, and it's related to what I posted about innovation and the pursuit of accuracy and precision, true development in what we're interested in has stalled as it relates to pushing toward better.
There are a couple of reasons for this, but in mentioning these reasons, it's likely I'll hurt some feelings, but that's not my intent. I said something before about going backwards, which means that things are being repeated, again. I'm guilty of this as well, but Remington wanted what they wanted, but fortunately, they were better at filing bankruptcy than they were at executing to plan. So, a new company was wrapped around what I had, along with two issued patents, but still a lot of 40X DNA due to the plan with Remington. We all see where that platform is now and who knows what will really happen, but as I've stated, it's of no consequence (other than those that have no idea where their $$$ is).
So, we have a near 40X action about to land, along with a new receiver that uses a CZ style bolt rear and V-22 bolt nose, fire control, etc. So how far has this really come? Frankly, and again, not to minimize anyones efforts, not very far (this is reason number one). The second reason, is the refusal to depart from construed conventional wisdom. What I've "heard" here is, the community agrees that more precision and accuracy is desired by way of innovation, but, don't talk about changing anything. There's still mention of a R700 footprint, which is highly constraining to any attempt to truly innovate, and don't talk about straying from the long list of available parts, components, etc., that are R700 compatible.
But, I get it, the approach makes a lot of sense, so for the reasons I mentioned above, I'm still doing a R700 physical footprint action, but that is the only likeness to the platform. And I'll always use my original AICS approach for magazines that is now used by many, to include Anschutz (they told me at SHOT a number of years ago they'd never do such a magazine
). I'm also doing three other rimfire actions to capture a number of other things.As it relates to what you mentioned about the Wigger 6mm (.236) gun, I'll need more info before I buy into that, but I can say that pursuing the capabilities mentioned by Brock and Jesse is certainly doable in an American made system. We just have to think a little differently about what it means to achieve it.
MB
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I shot with Lones for years at the Olympic Training Center and we shot as Teammates a time or two. He was one of the finest humans I ever met and one of the best officers the Army ever produced, even though his jealousy of the Air Force was fun to play with.
That magical rifle of his is on display at the OTC. It is an old wood stocked Anschutz 54.
He was my friend and I miss him.
That magical rifle of his is on display at the OTC. It is an old wood stocked Anschutz 54.
He was my friend and I miss him.
Who knows anything about the dates when the primer compound was changed to a water activated formula?
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