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Do you build or assemble rifles?

My point is, the builder or manufacturer under the US law pays the excise tax, it is not charged again A new paintjob, or trigger job, or when a new barrel is installed, no federal tax in levied, as these are nothing more (in the eyes of the BATF)as a modification to an legally owned, and tax having been paid (with the few exceptions like the home build) on the receiver weapon. If one listens to some of the posters, their "builds" should include a new tax, and a license to mfg! I hope they are not listened to-or a license to mfg and a new excise tax could be required to paint skulls on a rifle, or put on a new bolt handle, to install a new trigger etc., please don't give the gun grabbing taxers an excuse! Manufacturer (builders) pay the tax, once, everything else is a modification, or assembly.

Agin this is patently wrong. see the letter I posted above, again I will copy and paste for those to lazy to go to it (page 9 of 11 scenario #2):
"SCENARIO #2
SUPPLIER
Sells used military-type firearms to gunsmith.
GUNSMITH
Discards stocks, sights and trigger guards which leaves only barrel and
action.
Adds custom-made stock.
Cuts down barrel.
Blues and polishes bolt.
Replaces sights and trigger guards
Adds telescopic sights on some firearms
CUSTOMER
Purchases modified firearm.
Gunsmith is held to be the manufacturer since the production of the above
described custom-type firearms resulted in a new and different article from
the original used military-type firearms.
(Based on IRS Revenue Ruling 64-202)",


The importer first paid an ecxise tax when he form 6'ed the gun and brought it in country, now the Gunsmith is engaged in a taxable activity, "manufacturing" but he still doesn't pay till he goes past the "50 firearms exemption"


to further quote the letter (directly copied and pasted) " In a situation where a customer supplies a firearm to a gunsmith for
modification, the customer is usually considered to be the manufacturer
for FAET purposes. The customer is considered to be the manufacturer
because he directs what type of modification is to be done to the firearm
and he retains title to the firearm while it is being modified. Even though
the gunsmith performs the physical modifications to the firearm, he would
not usually be considered the manufacturer for FAET purposes in this
situation. However, an exception to the above example is where the alterations are
made in connection with the sale of the firearm by the gunsmith. Where
the gunsmith is selling the firearm to the customer, and in connection with
that sale, the gunsmith performs alterations that constitute manufacture,
the sale of the altered firearm results in tax liability. The clearest example
of this situation is where the gunsmith offers to customize a firearm to the
customer’s specifications prior to sale. The tax liability cannot be avoided
by merely breaking the transaction into two parts, i.e., selling the firearm
and subsequently performing the manufacture.
 If the manufacture is done in connection with the sale of a firearm, the
gunsmith is liable for tax, whether he performs the act of manufacture
before or after the sale. In the latter instance, the Alcohol & Tobacco Tax
& Trade Bureau (TTB) will adhere to Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
rulings in this area and blend the sale and the subsequent manufacture
into one transaction. The substance of the transaction will control, not the
form.
 Where the gunsmith is not selling the firearm to the customer, or in
circumstances where the sale and subsequent alterations are truly
separate transactions, the customer is deemed to be the manufacturer. In
these situations, tax liability, if any, would fall on the customer." the letter repeatedly states when it is for pesonal use no FAET when it is part of a busines transaction FET applies.

Agin to restate my position on Manufacturing and Tax here is what page #4 states (again directly copied and pasted):
"If the manufacturer sells the firearm before using it, he is liable for the
FAET. If the manufacturer uses the firearm for personal (not business)
use after delivery from the gunsmith, no tax liability is incurred. The
regulations specifically provide that the tax does not apply to a firearm that
has been manufactured for personal use. (See 27 CFR 53.112(b).)
 If the manufacturer uses the firearm in the operation of any business in
which he is engaged, tax liability would be incurred. (See 26 U.S.C. 4218
and 27 CFR 53.112(a).)"

it is quite simple, there are no "Homebuilders" the diferentiation is if someone "Manufactures" for themselves or for business- if in Business tax may apply (over and over depending on how many times an item is "remanufactured"), if you are engaged in buisness- marking requirements in 27 CFR § 478.92 apply, if you are not ingaged in business they don't apply except when a non-buisnesss engaged manufacturer makes a NFA item
 
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skinnj1- you still have not readdressed the TWICE question or the inaccuracies in your logic! Is Joe Schitz the mfg, or no? If yes, then why can't he put his own serial number/ brand on this newly mfg weapon?
Yes, indeed you are 100% correct, the term "home built" does not appear in the CFR, however; I used it for clarity, to differentiate between a licensed mfg and a private individual (hope this clear that up for you). A private individual, such as Joe Schitz, and his former S&W 686, he now wishes, as he is the mfg, to have it labeled the Schitz #1. You can keep posting from the BATF web page, but that doesn't help old Joe Schitz! And to help you better understand, when the tax applies, it is not- if- they are engaged in the business, but how they handle the newly manufactured weapon. If they build it for the express purpose of sale, whether or not they have ever been engaged in the business at all prior to the new manufacture. If they build it for sale, and do not have a license to mfg, they are breaking the law. If they build it and use it, then it is a used weapon, that was not originally mfg for sale. If they build it and keep it for years, but never use it, not even once, and sell it, they would still be in need of a license to mfg. But again poor old Joe Schitz is trying to figure out, if he is in trouble or not, he is the manufacturer, why can't he put his name and serial number on it, and remove the old markings, as they are in no way a Joe Schitz original? BTW, do you remove the serial numbers and manufacturers name/logos etc from guns you "manufacture"?
One thing is for sure: assembler of guns NO, builder of guns NO, the only correct answer is Manufacturer of Small Arms. I guess we are going to start seeing new posts such as: "Announcing the Manufacturer (without a new tax) of a 308 Rifle"!!!!!!, Or, "I'd like to announce that I just finished Manufacturing(no new tax paid) my new smokepole, I just installed a Timney trigger!!!!!". Or maybe one like, "My gunsmith built a rifle for a customer, the customer died prior to pick-up, it has been several years, he wants to sell it to me cheap to get his money back out of the deal. I'm afraid to buy the thing, as my gunsmith hasn't paid the FET on it-will I be committing a Fed Crime knowing this before I give him money for it?
Please help old Joe Schitz, he doesn't know what to do, you keep avoiding the question-and remember, do not ask anyone in the BATF! Just the thought of it is to scary-they are not there to answer questions-you may get on their list.....just saying.
 
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The atf has already stated people not engaged in business do not have to mark the firearm, that used to be on their faq- now it is not, I have no obligation to mark my stuff, liscensees do. THE ATF FURTHER STATES ONLY LISCENSED MANUFACTURES CAN MODIFY EXISTING MARKINGS

The letter clearly states scenarios where fet happens to the same gun more than once, what is your struggle with this?
 
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The Washington D.C. club (headed by Obama) is really good at that kind of answer! The question you have danced around, Can Joe Schitz remove the old names and numbers for his former S&W 686, as it is now a newly mfg Joe Schitz #1. I have never inferred that he had to mark it, should mark it, allow his dog to mark it, but only can he do so as he is now the manufacturer? Your answer, of "the atf has already stated people not engaged in the business do not have to mark the firearm", that in NO WAY addresses Can he? "Do Not Have to, implies they can but are not required to. Can he remove all traces of the S&W manufacturing numbers and logo and replace it with his own, remember he is the manufacturer?
 
Again there is differences between performing an activity that constitutes manufacturing and one that requires a liscense as a manufacturer- see my form one can example. As stated before Only A liscensed manufacturer can existing markings I have stated this already.
 
I have given links for anyone to read to do so , pawprint- I have directly quoted your inaccuracies and backed it with atf's documents, I have clearly given exaples where the manufacturer does not have the privileges of a liscensed manufacturer. Every damn letter the atf has mailed to me on markings etc . always states "liscensed manufacturer". Words have specific meanings when dealing withe batfe. I done wasting franks bandwidth. If you want to talk further take it to a pm
 
I get it, there are two types of mfg's! I have used the term home built, as a way to clearly delineate between a licensed mfg. and a private party. It appears that there are two separate types of mfgs! One is a real manufacturer, can mark numbers and logos etc on their weapons, and those that are modifying already built weapons, and can not remove the marks or serial numbers of the original manufacturer, so when someone says they are going to "build" they are as wrong as I was to use the term home built(it just seems easier and faster than going through the term of a private party etc, but hey this is about terminology), as a means to separate the two, in fact they should be saying "manufacturing under the private individuals privilege", no license and no further tax will be paid. Unless, of course, they are actually building a weapon, not modifying an existing weapon, then they are building and manufacturing and will have a custom piece when finished. Custom is another strange term to say the least.
The poor old gun smith received a 700 rem, factory stock 308. His customer wanted a 7-08, longer barrel, and new trigger, and while he was at it, he wanted the action trued, and a new stock, bedded of course. He was paid 50% down, the customer, never returned, all letters were returned, and no phone numbers worked, every reasonable effort was made to contact the owner. A year latter the gunsmith wants to sell the rifle (now in its new form) in order to get at least the 50% more he was owed. He sells it to you, and you know he did not pay the FET, are you also guilty of a Fed Firearms Crime? Yes indeed you are! We all must be alert to these types of problems, as there are two different types of mfgs, the easiest way to tell them apart is who can put the serial number and name on the weapon-address etc. and who can not. Just because you are a private party, and doing work on your own weapons, that would require a mfg license if you were to do it for monetary gain, you still do not have the same privileges as a licenses mfg. I'm guessing the reason you can't remove the name and serial number etc. of the mfg, replacing it with your Joe Schitz #1 super special, is it allows LE, to quickly determine who the original (un-modified) mfg was/is.
It is a real shame that Joe Schitz, thinking he was the mfg, decided to removed all those markings placed on his 686 by the mfg (S&W), and is now doing a little time in prison-let's all have good thoughts about Joe Schitz, he was confused! The regs said he was the manufacturer, he just didn't know better.....just saying.
 
I was always under the impression Congress made laws, agencies made regulations to implement those laws. I have also been under the impression that when you want to know the LAW regarding a subject go to the USC, get the law, not what a particular agency has thought up today. Of course, I could be wrong. For example, if the BATFE is now making Federal law, and bypassing congress, I stand corrected! We live in strange times, that is for sure. I've been looking at the18 USC, and I'm having trouble finding the dual manufacturing (private party manufacturer and the licensed manufacturer) under the actual legal definitions. By that I mean the laws that are on warrants, charges, Grand Jury Indictments, etc., maybe someone could help me out on this! I'm not really that interested in the Regs, as they are the opinion of that agency, on how best to enforce the Laws made by Congress, I am rather, interested in the Actual Law of the land, as it were. Thanks in advance!
 
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This is like watching someone attempt to nail Jello to a wall.

Meanwhile, in the real world, my buddy and I started on his M40A5 build today in my home shop.
 
Do you build or assemble rifles?

Pawprint,

One of the skills necessary to argue convincingly is to be fluent in the facts.

Another is the ability to think critically enough to apply the facts to what it is you are trying to say.

A third, and by no means the least, is to stop talking long enough to listen to and understand the other person's argument.
 
I have given links for anyone to read to do so , pawprint- I have directly quoted your inaccuracies and backed it with atf's documents, I have clearly given exaples where the manufacturer does not have the privileges of a liscensed manufacturer. Every damn letter the atf has mailed to me on markings etc . always states "liscensed manufacturer". Words have specific meanings when dealing withe batfe. I done wasting franks bandwidth. If you want to talk further take it to a pm

<sniff sniff> I smell popcorn, anyone else smell popcorn?

This is like watching someone attempt to nail Jello to a wall.

skinnj1,

You broke rule #127:

"Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."
 
for my 2$ worth....
Build = gunsmith
assemble = did it myself (for the most part)
quite frankly, i don't give a rip roaring rat's ass, as long as it shoots true & doesn't blow up.. we're golden.
$500 or $5000.... doesn't matter, just shoot it & enjoy.
Quarrels such as this really detract from the sport/passtime more than it adds.
 
I was always under the impression Congress made laws, agencies made regulations to implement those laws. I have also been under the impression that when you want to know the LAW regarding a subject go to the USC, get the law, not what a particular agency has thought up today. Of course, I could be wrong. For example, if the BATFE is now making Federal law, and bypassing congress, I stand corrected! We live in strange times, that is for sure. I've been looking at the18 USC, and I'm having trouble finding the dual manufacturing (private party manufacturer and the licensed manufacturer) under the actual legal definitions. By that I mean the laws that are on warrants, charges, Grand Jury Indictments, etc., maybe someone could help me out on this! I'm not really that interested in the Regs, as they are the opinion of that agency, on how best to enforce the Laws made by Congress, I am rather, interested in the Actual Law of the land, as it were. Thanks in advance!

Yes you are wrong. Instead of impressions, you should have looked at the law.

To get yourself familiar with how things work, you may want to check out:

[SIZE=-1]Administrative Procedure Act, Title 5 - United States Code - Chapter 5, sections 511-599[/SIZE]

Chevron U.S.A. Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc.
, 467 U.S. 837 (1984)
 
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When someone says "I'm building" an AR, I equate it similarly to Orange County Choppers (OCC) to building a bike most times. They farm out frame, fenders, S&S motor, all the parts, lights, and more, and they put it together and tweak a few things to make a motorcycle. Afterwards, they send it off to have it painted. They "built" a motorcycle, but in reality they did little more than assemble most of the bike by putting together someone elses frame and parts.

If you're starting with a bare 1911 frame, taking a slide of choice and hand fitting, hand fitting all of the small parts, making sure EVERYTHING runs like to panes of glass sliding on each other, then you're "Building" a gun.

Otherwise, all else is assembling.

That said, most times I still say "build" an AR or otherwise because its more widely known. So long as people know the difference, I think its fine.
 
Cartman, I am familiar with the Administrative Procedure Act, and how the Federal Courts have treated it, for example:
Administrative agency may not, under guise of its rulemaking power, abridge or enlarge its authority or act beyond powers given it by statute which is source of its power; administrative regulations that alter or amend statute or enlarge or impair its scope are void.
San Bernardino Valley Audubon Soc. V. City of Moreno Valley, 51 Cal.Rptr.2d. 897 (1996, Cal.App. 4th Dist)

On this issue the federal courts have stated:

"...power to issue regulations is not power to change the law..."
US v. New England Coal and Coke Company 318 F.2d 138 (1963)

I'm glad the Federal judges have seen fit to clarify this, for there have been some agencies that felt they have the power to make laws, without congress, in short a complete by-pass of how America works! Thank God, the Federal Judges looking at this thing realized this and made their rulings, a no brainer for sure. As agencies make regulations that are to help in enforcing the Laws congress makes, not make laws in an attempt to enforce a real law that was made by congress. But thanks for your input!
 
I "put them together";)

If someone says they built a rifle, it really doesn't matter to me if they assembled prefinished parts or created the molecules that compose the rifle out of sheer will. If they start whining about the difference, I assume that they're needy, self-important yaboes who want me to believe that gunsmithing is a black art requiring MENSA level genius and supernatural skill.
 
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I can't believe you people spend time arguing about this shit. Seriously.

I'm going back out to my mine to get more raw materials so I can later build rifles.
 
I have an 07 license and just had a compliance inspection in which I was told to put my name an a couple AR 15 I assembled in the shop or be cited. I said bullshit and logged them out to myself while they were standing there in disbelief. I can truly say I hate those jack booted asswipes. This is the crap you get from a democrat run government.
 
I have an 07 license and just had a compliance inspection in which I was told to put my name an a couple AR 15 I assembled in the shop or be cited. I said bullshit and logged them out to myself while they were standing there in disbelief. I can truly say I hate those jack booted asswipes. This is the crap you get from a democrat run government.


The Democratic Party should be sued for false advertising. What they're selling is far from Democracy.
 
I always use the term "build" if I buy all the parts for an AR and through them together I always say i'm "building" another AR. Sure, it may not be politically correct but who cares. A home builder buys all the lumber for a house before it goes up and you don't here them say they're assembling a house.
 
do you build a "HOUSE" or assemble it ?

you order all the components and they show up to the job site and than you build the house. You did not go out into the woods and cut down the trees and mill the lumber. You don't manufacture the H.V.A.C. You don't make your own bricks, tyveck, shingles, nails, screws, plywood, and so on. You simply order al the needed components and assemble them to the drawing specifications BUT no one would ever argue the fact that you built the house. I have never heard a builder say to some one.....I just got done building that house.....response.....Well did you manufacture the H.V.A.C.?..........NO.......Well than you just assembled it.
 
Whatever...

I still can't believe I actually read (well, skimmed...) through this entire waste of bandwidth...
 
Hey you, don't you dare bring logic up in here!

Pawprint,

One of the skills necessary to argue convincingly is to be fluent in the facts.

Another is the ability to think critically enough to apply the facts to what it is you are trying to say.

A third, and by no means the least, is to stop talking long enough to listen to and understand the other person's argument.
 
Never seen any other field of interest argue semantics as much as firearms enthusiasts of all types and on all levels. Seriously, have any of you? College kids are pretty bad about it, but it's to be expected from them, they're all experts in training and differentiating terminology. I think that may be part of it, all firearms enthusiasts are "experts" on some level, only they use the terminology differences to engineer a hierarchy of meaning that usually correlates their knowledge and/or skills with the most value of meaning --as illustrated by build vs. assemble, where assemble is obviously the least valuable term.

Theseus... Did he build the ship, or merely assemble it? Wish I'd thought to ask my philosophy professor that one in this context.
 
Never seen any other field of interest argue semantics as much as firearms enthusiasts of all types and on all levels. Seriously, have any of you? College kids are pretty bad about it, but it's to be expected from them, they're all experts in training and differentiating terminology. I think that may be part of it, all firearms enthusiasts are "experts" on some level, only they use the terminology differences to engineer a hierarchy of meaning that usually correlates their knowledge and/or skills with the most value of meaning --as illustrated by build vs. assemble, where assemble is obviously the least valuable term.

Theseus... Did he build the ship, or merely assemble it? Wish I'd thought to ask my philosophy professor that one in this context.


Got to admit that us "shooting types" are a different bunch. Some are even more "different" than others :)
 
Must be short of ammo or the weather's too bad to go out and shoot :)

Weather's getting cold and dank; 11PM forecast last night called for the first flakes of the season, maybe...

End of season switchover to confirming zeros on the hunting guns is imminent.

Greg