Rifle Scopes DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

[gunderwood]

Yes, another one of these. I was posting in the other SRS thread, but was kind of rude to hijack it so...

Calibers: 338LM, 308Win, 243Win

1. How do the clicks compare? I have tried a Premier and thought the clicks were mushy compared to my NF. Haven't tried either of these.

2. The NF seems to tunnel real bad a low magnification to the point that shooting sling supported at close targets is a pain.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<span style="font-weight: bold">Original posting copied here:</span>

Similar question, would appreciate some help/insight. I use my stuff pretty hard (once I get it well tuned). Looking for the best field/tactical optic for unknown range shooting.

Having the same SRS setup (.338LM/300gr Lapua Scenars, .308Win/175gr SMK, .243Win/115gr DTAC) with a NXS 5.5-22x56mm (moving it to another gun), I was looking at a FFP Hensoldt 4-16x56mm or a S&B 5-25x56mm P4L. Nightforce NXS is as high as I have experience with to date. Having a hard time deciding.

I need a scope for another gun, so I was looking for something more tactical than the NXS. I dislike having many turns on the knobs, too easy to get lost when switching targets. Also, I dislike the inability to adjust the illuminated reticle without disassembling the turret. Both the Hensoldt and the S&B fix these two issues.

Hensoldt to my knowledge doesn't make the 6-24x56mm in FFP and the 72mm is just to big for this rifle IMO. Thus, my interest in the 4-16x56mm.

Pros:
Wider FOV-faster close target engagement
Lights the whole reticle (like the NXS) so ranging is possible in low light
Fluorite glass-I'm very impressed with my Zeiss Victory RF binoculars, but is it really that much better in this scope?
Easier sight picture

Cons:
Basic mil-dot reticle
16x may be limiting for .338LM ranges (thoughts?)
No zero stop
Durability? (heard rumors from Europe that Hensoldts break more often than S&B, but no real data to back it up)


S&B 5-25x56mm

Pros:
High magnification
Zero stop
P4L Fine reticle

Cons:
Only illuminates the central cross hair
Harder sight picture? (guessing from my research)
Potentially inferior glass? (how much?)
Length

Thoughts?

Edit: For those who have used both, which is easier to pick out camouflaged or at least not high contrast white targets with? The 25x of the S&B or the 16x with Fluorite lens?

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

Never used the Hedsolt so I won't comment on it from personal expeirience but Lowlight feels it's excellent and I will take his word on that. That said I have alot of time behind the S&B 5-25 and love the scope. Excellent optic. I can't believe you actually posted that it has inferior glass LOL That's one thing you would never see about an S&B. Optics are excellent and the scopes track perfectly. The P4F reticle is also a good reticle as it's fine enough for shooting at smaller targets at long range.

Out of your cons the only thing I would see as a con from actually using the scope would be the illumination. It would be nice if the whole reticle illuminated.

 

[Daniel Barham]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I have seen the Hendsoldt 6-24 FFP. Hide member here has one with a Horus in it. Center of ret (H-38 or H-37) placed to high up for my taste, but a bad ass scope. With owning 3 S&B 5-25 Gen II XR's , I would say your possible inferior glass statement is in question. Inferior to whom. Not to the Hensoldt, or anyone else I have seen. I have had problems with a S&B tracking that was taken care of by S&B USA that was not taken care of by another dealer, but S&B sent me a new scope. Doesn't matter who makes it, you can break anything. Whos going to work on the Hendsoldt here? Love to have one, but if I had just one, it would not be the Hendsoldt just for service work.

 

[trigger time]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I have both the scopes you are talking about and will say, for starters they are both outstanding scopes. As for the Hensoldt not having a zero stop, that isn't a problem due to the fact you can't go a full rev past zero. Mine (on a 20 moa base) will go roughly two mills past zero. My S&B with a zero stop will go 1 moa past zero, but I wouldn't want it to actually stop dead nuts on zero, due to changes in temp density ext....
The sight picture on my Hensoldt is hands down better than my S&B. To my eye and every one else that has seen them side by side in the field. I wasn't the first to say it, but the scope all but dissaperes on low power. It is so good, I feel I don't lose anything in having a 16x as apposed to a 25x, and I really like the higher powered scopes. On the other hand, on lower power the S&B does start to tunnel or the field of view shrinks below roughly 7.5x, not 100% as I don't have it in front of me. I don't see the point in it having any lower power settings beyond where it starts to do that, but thats just me. It will however focus a little closer than the Hensoldt, were talking about 5-7 yards vs 10-13 yards.
My S&B has the P4 and I like it in most comps, but its a pain when your shooting know your limits or something where your point of aim is very small. Kinda wish it had a P4 fine, or a gen11. So out of my two scopes I like the standard mill in the Hensoldt a little better than the P4 in my S&B. I would prefer a P4 fine or similar reticle to either one.
Another thing I will say about both scopes is the parallax adjustment is spot on, but its easier to use S&B as a quick range finder due to the fact that the Hensoldt tends to remain parallax free across the board. So that can be a good and bad thing either way, you just have to really pay attention to where the actual sweet spot is on the H.
The illumination is better on the Hensoldt, but I must say I allmost never use it on either one. I did use it on shooting movers at night once and it was nice to have.
Both scopes track true and while I haven't had the hensoldt near as long, I doubt I'll have trouble with either one, but you won't catch my ass blowing them up either! They do however get used and used pretty hard.
I can't say that the S&B has a bad sight picture because it is great, but the Hensoldt is really that much better (again to my eye, and everyone that has looked through mine).
My advise would be get behind both scopes and see for yourself the one you like better, its allot of money either way. If and when I go to buy another one it would be a Hensoldt, unless I found a hell of a deal on a S&B with a P4f or gen11. If the Hensoldt had a similar reticle there would be no second thoughts I'd get another Hensoldt (after I saved for quite a while).
These are just my opinions and I really don't care to start a this is better and your full of it debate, but since I have both, I figured I'd chime in. They are both great and its hard to go wrong either way.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent optic. I can't believe you actually posted that it has inferior glass LOL That's one thing you would never see about an S&B. Optics are excellent and the scopes track perfectly.</div></div>

Yes,the optic is excellent from the single example I have been able to look through; inferior (slightly?) to the Hensoldt or so some say, but you are splitting hairs. I'm comparing these directly.

In theory, the S&B does have inferior glass as to my knowledge it is actually glass vice the Hensoldt's fluorite crystal. Ultra high end optics (not scopes) haven't used glass for a while.

Edit: Just to be clear, the S&B has excellent glass, but <span style="text-decoration: underline">may</span> be inferior to the Hensoldt "glass." In theory it is, but in practice?

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

Thank you trigger time, that was informative. "Best" is debatable and subjective. Your insights into what your experience has shown the strengths and weaknesses of each is helpful.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

Keep speaking in theory. When you get some actual time behind the scopes then you will actually learn that when you get to high end scopes like the S&B and Hendsolt you won't call anything inferior on either. Yes, you might like a feature better on one than another but in the end they are both top of the line scopes and will perform for the end shooter.

I am not saying the above to be an ass and don't want it to come across that way. Just that you can beat spec sheets to death and nit pic tiny differences but until you get first hand experience then it's all just theory. Granted that is tough at times and that is why this site is here. Look at the specs and see what you like the best and get that scope as you won't go wrong with either.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep speaking in theory. When you get some actual time behind the scopes then you will actually learn that when you get to high end scopes like the S&B and Hendsolt you won't call anything inferior on either. </div></div>

I'm not looking to argue, but it isn't just theory. Fluorite and Quartz have been used in high end telescope and camera lens for a while. These optical devices sometimes cost orders of magnitude more than any of the scopes we are discussing. From wikipedia, emphasis mine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorite):

"Fluorite is used instead of glass in some high performance telescopes and camera lens elements...<span style="text-decoration: underline">Fluorite has a very low dispersion so lenses made from it exhibit less chromatic aberration than those made of ordinary glass</span>. In telescopes it allows crisp images of astronomical objects even at high power. Fluorite also has ornamental and lapidary uses. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Canon Inc. produces synthetic fluorite crystals that are used in their more expensive telephoto lenses</span>...

Fluorite objective lenses are manufactured by the larger microscope firms (Nikon, Olympus, Carl Zeiss and Leica) due to their strong hexagonal crystal structure most notable for evenly refracting light...The fluorite also serves to correct optical aberrations in these lenses."

A fluorite lens is better (optical clarity/resolution) than a lead glass lens all else being equal. Is it enough to justify the cost or is it even perceptible to a human being? It depends. I don't think Zeiss/Hensoldt are pure fluorite lens, but rather doped/hybrid lens (don't know of sure, but based on cost...).

Does that mean that S&B is inferior? No, just that some people who have both say the Hensoldt has better glass. I've been behind a S&B and it was great (not mine), but don't have a Hensoldt to compare and I don't know anyone who does.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

Just edited my post above. Wasn't trying to come across as arguing but can see how it seems like it might. A question, are you an engineer? Not for any other reason but you are getting so in depth and we see that on this site mostly from engineers. Not a bad thing but just wondering.

Don't get caught up in the glass thing on those scopes.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

IMHO,S&B's comes highly recommended. In a soft case too!

 

[jasonk]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I've owned both and still own the Hensoldt. Both are great and I mean GREAT scopes.

The Hensoldt clicks are not the best I've ever used, but they are more than adequate. The S&B had some tunneling which was okay prone <span style="text-decoration: line-through">but annoying in other situations.</span>

I love the Hensoldt, great sight picture, easy to use and look through, just overall the best all around scope for me and my needs. I also love the compact and lightweight package compared to the S&B. The no "real" zero stops doesn't bother me, it would take a lot of not paying attention to mess that up.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

Jason was that the tunneling at the 5x range?

 

[jasonk]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jason was that the tunneling at the 5x range?</div></div>

This is going to sound silly but I can't remember, it might have been at the high end like 20x+ which wouldn't be a huge deal since I'd never shoot anything but prone at a 20X+ magnification. I will edit that part of my above post now that I've thought of it. I just remember that it tunneled for me and I wasn't a huge fan of it.

The Hensoldt is just a thin black circle when you look through it even at 16x, it had next to none tunneling when recently compared to the S&B 4-16 and the Razor 5-20. I never really would have said the S&B 4-16 tunneled until I looked through it right next to the Hensoldt, when compared side by side the S&B does have some tunnel effect.

Since Dave posted a sexy scope pic....I must respond.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I believe it was at the low end as mine did also but not until about 6x and under. A well known complaint by people. Not a big deal as I rarely use that low power. Top end were all bright and clear with no tunneling.

 

[B.Bates]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk?[/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>



Oh boy, I Can't wait to see all of this for sale soon

Jason what are the calibers of the 3 rifles?, might have to try and buy one

 

[jasonk]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

LOL Shootone. The Hensoldt is on a Surgeon 243 in a Sentinel stock, the S&B is a GAP 308 that belongs to a friend, the Razor is a 308 as well. None are currently for sale....but the day is young

I will have a review of the Hensoldt and the Razor up in the next couple of days. The S&B 4-16 is a known, I don't think a review of it is necessary.

 

[trigger time]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I started to do a side by side with lots of pictures between the Schmidt and Hensoldt a dozen times, but in the end figured it would just start a pissing contest. Seems like half the crap here does these days.

 

[CANAVAR]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but the day is young

</div></div>

and he's on Pacific Time LOL

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slug</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen the Hendsoldt 6-24 FFP. Hide member here has one with a Horus in it.</div></div>

I wasn't aware that the 6-24 was available in FFP or with other than a mildot ret. If it had been I would have bought that instead. How did he manage this?

 

[jasonk]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALMAORFE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slug</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen the Hendsoldt 6-24 FFP. Hide member here has one with a Horus in it.</div></div>

I wasn't aware that the 6-24 was available in FFP or with other than a mildot ret. If it had been I would have bought that instead. How did he manage this? </div></div>

It's obviously custom, so they either did a few FFP or maybe (I'm guessing) they installed it SFP and the holdovers only work at a certain magnification.

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

6-24FFP with Gen2 mildot or XR, I'd be all over that, that is pretty much my perfect scope.

Nathan said new reticles are down the line so I've been waiting patiently (well a little patiently). I hope they offer the 6-24x56 in FFP as well.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trigger time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I started to do a side by side with lots of pictures between the Schmidt and Hensoldt a dozen times, but in the end figured it would just start a pissing contest. Seems like half the crap here does these days.</div></div>

You should. Having both it would be a god comparison and from the above seems like you would do a good job. I've only handled the Hensoldt and don't have any time behind it so it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the two.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALMAORFE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6-24FFP with Gen2 mildot or XR, I'd be all over that, that is pretty much my perfect scope.

Nathan said new reticles are down the line so I've been waiting patiently (well a little patiently). I hope they offer the 6-24x56 in FFP as well. </div></div>

I've asked this exact question to Nathan a couple of other dealers. The dealers have given me conflicting responses and I've not heard anything back from Nathan as yet. I agree, it sounds like a perfect scope - almost a Premier 5-25 in fact!

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

Looks like Dave's girlfriend just got a PGW!

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like Dave's girlfriend just got a PGW! </div></div>
One lucky PGW! thats a beautiful girl Dave.

To the OP,
sorry for hijacking. To your ? your talking about two of the best, I prefer the Hensoldt to the S&Bs

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALMAORFE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like Dave's girlfriend just got a PGW! </div></div>
One lucky PGW! thats a beautiful girl Dave.

To the OP,
sorry for hijacking. To your ? your talking about two of the best, I prefer the Hensoldt to the S&Bs </div></div>

No problem. I realize I'm asking about two of the best tactical scopes around and I also realize that at this level most of the differences are subjective. However, that is why I am asking. Why do you like the glass of one better or is there no difference? Why do you prefer one turret over the other; substitute reticle, markings, anything.

No product is perfect and ideal for every situation, but there is a lot of good experience to leverage here. I appreciate all of the responses. It really helps when you can't shoot both back to back.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

gunderwood, do you have the DTA rifle yet? WOuld love to see a pic if you got it.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

That rifle is damn nice; very unique

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gunderwood, do you have the DTA rifle yet? WOuld love to see a pic if you got it. </div></div>

I've had it for a while now. Not sure what another pic would show that the others don't. It is just a stock rifle for now, looks just like their website. Was there something you wanted to see in detail?

 

[mdmp5]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

Oh, I just like looking at pics of peoples' own rifles. Which caliber you have, and how does it shoot?

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

Here is a capture from lowlights youtube Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP review. Hensoldt is on the left, while the S&B is on the right.

<span style="font-weight: bold">General observations</span>

First this is a camera behind these scopes and isn't 100% accurate. I tried to capture the best image quality for each. It helps to view a larger version.

The Hensoldt appears to represent colors more accurately. Look at the rest of the picture. The S&B appears to be brighter in the center, but darker around the edges (this could simply be because of the difficulty getting a good shot), while the Hensoldt appears to be more uniform. It is hard to tell which represents the truth better, but the rail (top left) in the S&B appears to bend more than the Hensoldt. Again, perhaps that is accurate, but it appears at the edges which isn't an uncommon optical flaw (assuming the rail is actually straight, the Hensoldt appears to bend it too, just less).

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

How does the Premier 5-25x56mm compare to these scopes. I've seen one, but haven't shot it. The really interesting thing would be easy re-zeroing when changing calibers.

I keep hearing all of the rumors about going out of business and quality control though.

 

[mac37]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

Jason is right, the scope tube disappears on the Hensoldt. The S&B 3-12x50 PMII comes very close but has a little distortion at the edges. With the S&B 4-16x50, the edge distortion goes away but you definitely pick up more of the tube. I don't notice any tunneling on the 3-12 or 4-16. As for the Vortex, you see even a little more tube and some slight tunneling. From memory, the Premier had less noticeable scope tube than the S&B 4-16 or Vortex. As for the glass, the Hensoldt, S&B and Premier are all on par, IMHO. The Vortex just falls outside the standard set but the others. Now, this is totally nit picking. All these scopes are fantastic. And this is just my humble opinion.

 

[trigger time]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

While Frank did a great job of showing the two scopes, there is no way to get a feel for what its actually like being behind both of them unless you are behind them. One of the best ways to get a good look at most of whats out there is to go to one of the comps in your area, and just ask to take a look. Ive found that just about everyone is as nice as can be and would gladly let you get behind there rifle, with the rare exception. Just be sure to ask and do it at a proper time and ask the RO's where and when would be a good time and place to do so.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

Regarding the PH and the Hensoldt: I have the PH 3-15 and the Hensoldt 4-16. Both have great optics. The Hensoldt has tunneling between 4 and 5 power, but the PH has no tunneling. The Hensoldt has better eye relief and is less fatiguing to look through for a long time. For me, if I stare at a target too long, the crosshairs start to get a bit fuzzy. I'm not sure why. The Hensoldt is slightly better at dusk, but both are noticably brighter optics than any scope I've used other than the S&B (which are very close to the PH). The Hensoldt has very slightly (meaning minimally) better resolving power but it comes at the expense of lateral chromatic aberration - meaning that in bright light or with white objects, if you move your eye even slightly off center there will be purple or green edges to the white or bright objects. I have heard that this is related to parallax adjustment or stray light, but I have my doubts about this. If you google this, you will find it described with zeiss binoculars (which are perhaps the best out there) and the Canon 1.2 50 mm lens. Digital cameras have internal software to correct this, so it is unlikely you will see a picture of it. The color fringing is slightly annoying but in no way affects the purpose of the optic.

However, above a certain point, optics become the least important part of a scope. The reliability and repeatability of the mechanics are much more important. The best data on this comes probably from benchrest (where March scopes appear best in repeatability, and also have pretty good optics) and tactical competition and training data (which people like Frank would know about). Anyone can easily compare optics, but the real test is the mechanics. Usually you can't return a mounted scope, so it is hard to know in advance about the mechanics other than to go to places like this and other forums. Companies don't tend to give accurate QC data to the public.

To put some perspective on this: the worse scope I've ever owned was a Simmons or Tasco (I don't remember which). It was mounted with good rings on an accurate 22LR rifle. For awhile it worked great for 100 yard and less targets. It wasn't as bright or as clear as better optics, but that was never a problem as far as accurate shooting was concerned. One day it started drifting all over the place. I checked the rings and they were not the problem. I took the optic off and shot with iron sites (meaning no optics) and had great accuracy again. Just looking at the scope, its optics were good enough. But it sucked for repeatability.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoughIsland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the PH and the Hensoldt: I have the PH 3-15 and the Hensoldt 4-16. Both have great optics. The Hensoldt has tunneling between 4 and 5 power, but the PH has no tunneling. The Hensoldt has better eye relief and is less fatiguing to look through for a long time. For me, if I stare at a target too long, the crosshairs start to get a bit fuzzy. I'm not sure why. The Hensoldt is slightly better at dusk, but both are noticably brighter optics than any scope I've used other than the S&B (which are very close to the PH). The Hensoldt has very slightly (meaning minimally) better resolving power but it comes at the expense of lateral chromatic aberration - meaning that in bright light or with white objects, if you move your eye even slightly off center there will be purple or green edges to the white or bright objects. I have heard that this is related to parallax adjustment or stray light, but I have my doubts about this. If you google this, you will find it described with zeiss binoculars (which are perhaps the best out there) and the Canon 1.2 50 mm lens. Digital cameras have internal software to correct this, so it is unlikely you will see a picture of it. The color fringing is slightly annoying but in no way affects the purpose of the optic.

However, above a certain point, optics become the least important part of a scope. The reliability and repeatability of the mechanics are much more important. The best data on this comes probably from benchrest (where March scopes appear best in repeatability, and also have pretty good optics) and tactical competition and training data (which people like Frank would know about). Anyone can easily compare optics, but the real test is the mechanics. Usually you can't return a mounted scope, so it is hard to know in advance about the mechanics other than to go to places like this and other forums. Companies don't tend to give accurate QC data to the public.

To put some perspective on this: the worse scope I've ever owned was a Simmons or Tasco (I don't remember which). It was mounted with good rings on an accurate 22LR rifle. For awhile it worked great for 100 yard and less targets. It wasn't as bright or as clear as better optics, but that was never a problem as far as accurate shooting was concerned. One day it started drifting all over the place. I checked the rings and they were not the problem. I took the optic off and shot with iron sites (meaning no optics) and had great accuracy again. Just looking at the scope, its optics were good enough. But it sucked for repeatability. </div></div>

Yes, but every time you are just on the edge of resolving something it makes you wonder if that other scope would be just better enough...

I have seen the green edges in my Zeiss Victory RFs. Love them though and it doesn't seem to be a big issue with binoculars as the eye relief is so short. Notice it more when I leave my eye glasses on, don't notice it at all when I take them off and adjust the diopter. Just my observations and opinion though.

Optics are only part of the question, but due to the way I labeled the S&B scope glass, the thread deviated. I had problems with a Bushnell 3200 and the reticle moving, but to be fair that was on a 50BMG.

What is the word on repeatability and reliability between Premier, Hensoldt and S&B? As far as I've read here and elsewhere, there really isn't a difference between these three. Occasionally everything breaks, these scopes included. Am I wrong?

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

I hsve heard it said that above a certain point, one cannot see the difference between optics. This is not true in my experience. However to answer your more important question about repeatability and reliability in rough conditions _ I do not know the answer and would defer to those who provide tactical training. From what I,ve heard S&B are very reliable and have a long track record. So do NF. Something else to consider is amount of elevation. PH is good in that regard.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

I used my 5-25 S&B for a little over 2 years flyingand driving around the country shooting tactical rifle matches in all different weather(dirt, rain and snow) and temps(teens to about 104 degrees) as well as shooting at my home ranges. Knobs twisted up and down alot. Tracked perfectly the whole time.

 

[jasonk]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoughIsland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Hensoldt has tunneling between 4 and 5 power</div></div>

Just back from the range...you are right! I never noticed it before, I guess I don't spend much time below 5x, but mine did tunnel very slightly between 4 and 5x then went away. Definitely didn't change my opinion, just wanted to point it out in full disclosure.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

I would pick the S&B 5-25x with P4F reticle and CCW mil turrets over the Hensoldt 4-16x, and I recently did.

From my perspective, the S&B has higher magnification (I have a couple 4-16x scopes already), and a good balance of image quality, fine reticle, and solid controls with zero stop and an unambiguous turn indication. Also it can be used on a flat AIAW Picatinny rail since it has 90+ MOA of elevation travel. The 4-16x FF Hensoldt doesn't have the same balance of features I want, so it came in second. I like the Hensoldt's sight picture, but I wasn't looking for a spotting scope.

I think too much emphasis is placed on image quality - these are riflescopes, not photo contest cameras or birdwatching scopes.

I have 5 Hensoldts (all 4x24mm or 3-12x56mm), so I'm not bashing Zeiss, just picking the best scope for my needs. For the same reasons, I would pick the Premier 5-25x over the Hensoldt.

PS The new Premier "clickers" greatly improve the feel of the turrets. At the SHOT show I tried out both the 3-15x and 5-25x Heritage scope single and double-turn turrets and they are very nice. In fact I was looking for the latest version of the 5-25x to become available (with the new parallax control knob marking), and a new S&B 5-25x appeared on SH with CCW mil turrets and a P4F reticle so I jumped on it. My next one will be a Premier, I really liked the 5-25x at SHOT. I would reconsider the Hensoldt if Zeiss produces an improved, thinner reticle; I can live with the so-so turrets.

 

[shane45]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

You can not compare the side by side pictures. Something is different in the lighting or camera settings between the two.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can not compare the side by side pictures. Something is different in the lighting or camera settings between the two. </div></div>

Maybe, but that is about as close as you can get without having both on hand. Lowlight used the same camera and at the same target within seconds of each other. Any image processing the camera was doing is a problem though.

 

[shane45]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

No reflection on the pictures or picture taker. I can barely squeak out a decent pic with a fully automatic digi camera. Im just saying that the comparison of color etc etc between the two is suspect. Im basing that on what I see outside the scope. Look at the difference in lighting and color of the left corner.

 

[dcjs]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

This seems to be a screenshot from a video. A video camera will normally have automatic white balance, so colors will not be comparable since the camera self-adjusts to the conditions.

Comparison through-the-scope-pics with fixed parameters <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> show differences, but with certain parameters I would want confirmation from the person that took the video that <span style="font-style: italic">"Yes, this shows what I have seen with the bare eye"</span>.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This seems to be a screenshot from a video. A video camera will normally have automatic white balance, so colors will not be comparable since the camera self-adjusts to the conditions.

Comparison through-the-scope-pics with fixed parameters <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> show differences, but with certain parameters I would want confirmation from the person that took the video that <span style="font-style: italic">"Yes, this shows what I have seen with the bare eye"</span>. </div></div>

Yes, the colors between the two shots are not comparable. I was noting the color between the background and the scope of each shot independently. The colors in the Hensoldt scope appear to match that shots background much better than the colors in the S&B match its.

As you note, there is almost certainly white balancing on the camera. Interestingly, it looks like the S&B is over saturated (as you point out), but wouldn't that make the differences between the scopes larger not smaller? I.e. make the S&B appear brighter (as it does in the center of the scope).

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

One could answer all the optical issues with a good slr camera and photoshop. One would need to profile the camera and include a white or grey object in the image both outside and through the scope. One could also measure brightness with manual setting and centerweighting. But what is the point. Optically all the scopes mentioned will be fine for targets out tp 1000 yards. For benchrest more magnification is better. The issue should be repeatibility of tracking and reliability.

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoughIsland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One could answer all the optical issues with a good slr camera and photoshop. One would need to profile the camera and include a white or grey object in the image both outside and through the scope. One could also measure brightness with manual setting and centerweighting. But what is the point. Optically all the scopes mentioned will be fine for targets out tp 1000 yards. For benchrest more magnification is better. The issue should be repeatibility of tracking and reliability. </div></div>

Both the scopes are nice, clear and beautiful to look through. Both scopes have a very good solid reputation of being reliable and tuff. Both scopes are the shit, they just have a little different feature set.

 

[gunderwood]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

I've heard several times that the Hensoldt is easy to "get behind," i.e. sight picture is not particular. How do the S&B and Premier compare in this aspect? I find my NF 5.5-22x is a little picky at higher magnification.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: DTA SRS: S&B 5-25x56mm or Hensoldt 4-16x56mm FFP

The Hensoldt is a 16x scope with a 56mm objective, so it has a larger exit pupil (3.5mm = 56mm/16) than a 16x S&B with a 42mm or 50mm objective. If you have a 50mm or 56mm NF, then your exit pupil is 2.3mm or 2.5mm, smaller than the Hensoldt at max magnification. A larger exit pupil is one aspect that makes it easier to "get behind" a scope.