Headshots Vs Centre Mass

[HK308]

It's fun to debate the merits of a 556 Nato v 6.5 gendel v 6.8 spc v 7.62 Nato truth be told any of these calibers will suffice,with advanced technology in body armour and given that most military small arms engagement distances are under 300 yards, why is there not more discussion on marksmanship skills (head shots) in field positions ?
I'm not referring to military tactics.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Wow. Great 1st post (sarcasm). I'm sure someone will be along shortly to answer your question.

 

[Erud]

Do you want to start a discussion on the topic, or just a discussion on the lack of discussion on it?

 

[JoshcBoucher]

I think most of the discussions on this site ARE about marksmanship. Well, there is a lot of "gun building",and reloading talk , but only to support the main subject of accuracy. I'm just a civilian "paper shooter". As to where to place shots? Maybe you'll find your answer in the Law Enforcement threads?

 

[mkollman74]

OK, I'll play... Personally, I prefer headshots (except when I don't). When I am zombie hunting, for example, I will take the first shot that presents itself. Maybe I am just lazy... Then again, I can do headshots from field positions "all day long" (wait for it) "if I do my part..." (you knew that was coming didn't you?)

 

[Angmo]

Haven't you heard of Fallujah? Oh, never mind.

 

[HK308]

I understand my post may amuse some and not fit their rational,however I seek a professional explanation on the subject.
My layman's understanding is military doctrine remains centre mass is preferred due to higher hit probability in a stressful environment,however it's a moot point if it is not having the desired result.

 

[EasyGravy]

With all the shit going on around you your better off aiming center mass. Your excited and scared and shakey most the time. Why risk a miss trying to make a headshot. This is really a silly question and obviously you never been to combat or you wouldnt have asked it.
There is so much shit going on in a firefight, its not call of duty. Between the noise, the dust, the debris, and 15 other guys yelling back and forth your allready stress and excited. Unless your an unemotional rock there are a hundred variables a second going thru your head. Sometimes depending on emvironment(ie. City fighting) head shots might be the only part exposed. After phantom fury after the mass deployment of the acog and other optical sights there was a DOD investigation on the mass number of head shots the devil

 

[EasyGravy]

^^^made. When a target only offers their dome, in the dome it goes.

 

[HK308]

Thank you EasyGravy for your comments, I don't have combat experience hence the question, I don't play video games (never have) and I don't compete in paper or steel shooting. I do however have 38 years experience in hunting/culling (headshots only) <60 lbs animals and the odd deer out to 350 yards which is nothing like being in a life threatening situation.

 

[Angmo]

^^^made. When a target only offers their dome, in the dome it goes.

Yep, in Fallujah, the grunts were investigated as they had soooo many head shots the media assumed they were "murders/close up assassinations". It was good marksmanship skills, steady nerves and the dome was the only viable target.

 

[EasyGravy]

[MENTION=18336]HK308[/MENTION]. Not talking down to you, Im just blunt and sometimes not very tactful. But, my closest explanation for you would be "buck fever" i/e.... you got a big sarducci buck [MENTION=89035]300[/MENTION] yards and your excited. Highly alert your sensory perception running 200%. Are you going to miss the trophy of a lifetime trying to pull a headie or you gonna aim for the boiler room and lay the hammer down. Just lay the hammer down and go look at your trophy.

 

[40xs]

reason is; misses in the military arena, and liability in the civil arena.

 

[mkollman74]

Hey HK308, I respect your good-natured response to the sarcastic (including mine) posts. I hope you can see how a first post such as yours might be a target for a little good-natured ribbing...

 

[Bender]

Why?

 

[kmose73]

When I play Medal of Honor I always go for head shots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

It's fun to debate the merits of a 556 Nato v 6.5 gendel v 6.8 spc v 7.62 Nato truth be told any of these calibers will suffice,with advanced technology in body armour and given that most military small arms engagement distances are under 300 yards, why is there not more discussion on marksmanship skills (head shots) in field positions ?
I'm not referring to military tactics.

Maybe because inside 300 yards, a solid shot to the sternum is going to have the same effect as a head shot, and there is much less risk of a miss or graze. The reality is that most enemies aren't going to have any armor that will stop a high power rifle round. Chest shot with .308 inside 300 or a head shot that isn't a graze will both have the same effect: dead duck.

 

[HK308]

I'm intrigued by the apathy regarding my question, a fact check will indicate vests do save lives in war zones to the point a soldier may return fire.
Without getting into human anatomy, my question is not necessarily limited too headshots.
Again I am just a average hunting person, however if it were up to me I would prefer to see our military trained for every contingency with the emphasise on marksmanship skills.

 

[Petrichor Actual]

Yep, in Fallujah, the grunts were investigated as they had soooo many head shots the media assumed they were "murders/close up assassinations"..

This is one of many reasons why the fate of our nation is sealed. It used to be that winning was enough. I don't know what's expected now.

 

[HK308]

I can recall the battle of Fallujah, and I must give full credit to the courage and marksmanship skills to our military in that battle, however is this a exception and not the norm ?

 

[EasyGravy]

It would depend on the terrain and the cover as we said earlier. To be honest, in the military you dont get to shoot and practice as much as people think. Most of my live fire and practice was done in kuwait or Iraq. My first deployment in 03 scopes on rifles were almost unheard of. My amtrack had a old vietnam era starlight scope with pak4 lazer for pullin nighttime guard. Goofy setup but it worked. When I returned for my final deployment in mid 2004, it seemed most grunts had optics allready, not all but a lot. Being on a track we had very little supervision so anytime a dragonov turned up it would stay and get used on our track

 

[HK308]

Thanks again EasyGravy for your input, would it be fair to say your average civilian gun enthusiast has more trigger time (experience) than your typical military personal? If so hence the need for appropriate ongoing training.

 

[kraven251]

300 win mag to a lvl4 plate still means you are dead. If it doesn't outright crack the plate, your internals look like an unset jello mold.

 

[jcslone]

The reasoning is simple. Higher hit probability given the factors of: physical and mental exhaustion, distracting environmental effects (not just wind and shit but bullets flying your way), not always being able to have a good shooting position/stance (body armor is a fking bitch at times...), effects of recoil on follow up shots, and speed of target acquisition. While the 2nd portion of the Marine Corps' rifle qualification does include graded head shots (or pelvic shots, it's shooter's preference), it is generally preferred to drop rounds center mass and only go for a headshot if absolutely necessary. Additionally unless a headshot is placed just right, it can either skim around the skull, not hit anything vital, or be stopped by the forehead.

In a shit sandwich situation what would you prefer? Trying to get that one "perfect" shot? Or pumping multiple rounds center mass with confidence?

 

[Randoman5]

Are you talking about hunting game animals that wear body armor or people? To my knowledge very few game animals wear body armor and you shouldn't shoot people for a variety of moral and legal reasons.

 

[Hairball]

Thanks again EasyGravy for your input, would it be fair to say your average civilian gun enthusiast has more trigger time (experience) than your typical military personal? If so hence the need for appropriate ongoing training.

The majority of active duty military are not exposed to direct combat. With that said, a civilian gun enthusiast may have no more "experience" than an active duty gun enthusiast. People that enjoy shooting on a regular basis could come from any profession so it's not a civilian versus military argument. I know plenty of mil and LE that shoot on a regular bases but have not been in direct combat or involved in an officer shooting. Big diffrence between running drills at your local range and having someone else at the other end of the range shooting back. JMHO but having both mil and LE experience, taking the time to shoot on your own usually covers the majority of your trigger time. At the SO we use to qual shoot every 90 days and that was the only required shooting. When I left in 2013, the department had 1 or sometimes 2 qual shoots a year to save money. Even then, they kept you at the range until you qualified even if it took three or four attempts and then there was no extra instruction required and off you went until the next qual shoot.

 

[HK308]

Thank you jcslone & Hairball for your logical explanation on the subject, the dedicated people putting themselves in harm's way on a two way range would most certainly need to have nerves of steel and again a big thank you to those guys!

 

[rpk762]

[MENTION=18336]HK308[/MENTION]. Not talking down to you, Im just blunt and sometimes not very tactful. But, my closest explanation for you would be "buck fever" i/e.... you got a big sarducci buck [MENTION=89035]300[/MENTION] yards and your excited. Highly alert your sensory perception running 200%. Are you going to miss the trophy of a lifetime trying to pull a headie or you gonna aim for the boiler room and lay the hammer down. Just lay the hammer down and go look at your trophy.

Lol. You have not shot enough deer. Yes I shot a nice 5x5 directly in the head. No one in the family was happy. No one! still a ok shot.

 

[EasyGravy]

I was simply setting a senerio. Ive kill plenty of deer every year, nusance tags. I just dont go blowing their tops for thrills. I shoot them in boiler room they drop, if they dont they dont go far with a 7mm mag hole in them. I dont get this facination with shooting them in the head. Maybe this marines gone soft, idk.

 

[Angmo]

I can recall the battle of Fallujah, and I must give full credit to the courage and marksmanship skills to our military in that battle, however is this a exception and not the norm ?

Well, one cannot simply wait for a PC shot for the comrade media to score. The bad guy presents a target, you take. Sometimes the bad guys don't present a PC shot. They've not been trained to cooperate. Blame the bad guys.

 

[nf9648]

^^^made. When a target only offers their dome, in the dome it goes.

Center mass is the center of what you can see, if it's only the head then that becomes center mass.