I see, thanks. So is this what the debate is over? Whether that causes barrel life to decrease?
- Thread starter TheHorta
- Start date
I see, thanks. So is this what the debate is over? Whether that causes barrel life to decrease?
Yes. The Lucky Gunner article was pointing out the cost savings on the steel & Bimetal jackets was enough savings to buy a new barrel.
I will not be using Bimetal (steel jacket) bullets in my Bartlein barreled GAP 10.
I will not be using Bimetal (steel jacket) bullets in my Bartlein barreled GAP 10.
Going back to that research paper I mentioned, M80 ball is a copper alloy clad steel jacket. Overhead fire M80 ball is just a copper jacket. Non-overhead fire M80 ball has a mean radius standard of 7.5 inches at 600 yards with no extreme spread standard. Overhead fire M80 ball has a mean radius of 5 inches at 600 yards with an extreme spread of 25 inches standard.
Both have a MV of 2750 fps +/- 50 at 70 degrees Fahrenheit +/- 2 degrees. Overhead fire ammo must have a standard deviation of less than 20. Non overhead fire must have an SD of 32.
Tracers have a separate mean radii and ES requirement.
Edited: for additional information.
Both have a MV of 2750 fps +/- 50 at 70 degrees Fahrenheit +/- 2 degrees. Overhead fire ammo must have a standard deviation of less than 20. Non overhead fire must have an SD of 32.
Tracers have a separate mean radii and ES requirement.
Edited: for additional information.
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M-80 Ball ammunition is not especially accurate and that's intentional. Its primary purpose is to provide suppressive fire during the maneuver phase of maneuver warfare, denying the target force the freedom to observe and respond with accurate defensive fire. Some moderate degree of dispersion is beneficial to its purpose.
Suppressive fire. In essence, it is small caliber barrage fire.
So actually, it's not horribly inaccurate; it's perfectly inaccurate.
Greg
Suppressive fire. In essence, it is small caliber barrage fire.
So actually, it's not horribly inaccurate; it's perfectly inaccurate.
Greg
Already explained; anyone citing luckygunner test is foolish and sadly , many reading can't think critically
Yup
Heat and friction are the barrel killers. Where is the heat and how is the friction applicable? people should be embarrassed referencing that test as its been destroyed a million times over. The pressure curve and rate of fire matter.....
If you read the whole test, the all copper rounds were fired at the same rate of fire, and didn't destroy the barrel beyond repair.
M80 shoots 2MOA or slightly better out of the SCARs I've run....M118LR is bang on 1MOA out of a 20S...using 5-shoot groups...not the tacticool ninja 3-shot...
Whoever said that M80 was designed for suppressive fire is false...M80 ball was designed first and foremost as a semi-automatic battle rifle cartridge after WWI...
Whoever said that M80 was designed for suppressive fire is false...M80 ball was designed first and foremost as a semi-automatic battle rifle cartridge after WWI...
Define M80
Thats like saying a Del ton kit is the same as a Knights SR15 or Colt 6920.
Thats like saying a Del ton kit is the same as a Knights SR15 or Colt 6920.
That test was not full auto, they used standard Bushmaster AR-15s.
A long time ago, I did a small project where I broke down 20 M-80 rounds at random and weighed the charges. The charges were wildly dissimilar with a maximum spread exceeding 5gr. That's as much a nearly 10% charge variation.
The thing that scares me is, I can't figure out whether the rounds I had in my possession were rejects or standard USGI.
Just 30 years prior, that was the same designation for the ammo I was depending on for my life.
The project was intended as a basis for an article in Precision Shooter. I just plain gave it up, I was so convinced nobody would believe it, and I was at a loss to draw any conclusions about what it all actually meant.
Like you, at the time; I decided that I simply had a batch of what should have been rejects,.
Greg
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Yeah, that 12m tombstone qual is fun, but if you transpose that tombstone out to 100 yards it would be close to the size of a compact car door I think LOL.
M80 =/= accuracy. I'd expect anything from 2-4 MOA at best through a semi-auto or bolt platform.
The M80 7.62x51 was invented in the 1950's, otherwise it would have been in service in WWII instead of 30-06
I shot a bunch of LC85 M80 out of a couple Navy DM rifles that were barreled with the old SAK medium weight NM 1:12 tubes. Off sandbags at 100yds it shot an easy 1-1.5" 3 shot group (doing zeros after re-mounting scopes). At 300 yds it would still shoot about 1moa.
I have a bit of LC66 in Garand enblocs that was issued to Navy Rifle Team shooters in the late 60s and early 70s as it had shown exceptional (moa or better) accuracy at 200/300 out of the Navy Mk2-1 match rifles.
I have a bit of LC66 in Garand enblocs that was issued to Navy Rifle Team shooters in the late 60s and early 70s as it had shown exceptional (moa or better) accuracy at 200/300 out of the Navy Mk2-1 match rifles.
Attachments
I'd be curious about the DAG and MEN and what the variation is. I know LC is the cats' meow but I think it's less consistent than the DAG or MEN. I wonder if anyone did your sampling with those two.
No. What you were really thinking was, "I pray my 8000.00 setup isn't this shitty." LMAO!!! I've been there before. LOL!!
so back to this... 
i drove by the local ammo store the other day, just happened to be close...and there were at least 20 people in line outside a couple hours before they closed (not before they opened).
and they only sell ammo, cleaning supplies, and range bags, no guns.
the dire scarcity of ammo made me think, and although i am not "out" of factory match ammo, it doesn't seem like as much as before since there isn't the normal ability to replace it as i shoot it (whatever the price).
add the scary bill somebody is trying to pass that would limit ammo purchases to 2x the gun's capacity every 120 days...gulp.
so anyway this inspired me to go to the range the other day with just m80 ball and see what it does.
up to now, i had only used it for steel targets 3-500 yards away, and even though i never missed at those ranges, i could not say if it was better than 3 moa. big targets and so many pock marks made it impossible to measure, besides the fact it was me shooting in the first place.
well i was surprised when i actually shot paper with it (145gr prvi partizan m80).
i think (still based on my shooting) it is better than 2 moa, and maybe even <1.5 moa if you throw out flyers that are probably me.
but then of course this is just at short distance so i am not saying that would hold up out past any particular distance.
still, it is good enough that i think it would be fun to have an m80 only "competition".
2 boxes of m80, with yardage for the target you choose being the points awarded for each hit.
300=3pts, 400=4pts 500=5pts 600=6pts or something like that. maybe a bonus target if there is a small one at 600.
shooting in a snake draft order so you have some idea if you need to go for more points to keep up.
it would be cheap, even for a poor like me.
i drove by the local ammo store the other day, just happened to be close...and there were at least 20 people in line outside a couple hours before they closed (not before they opened).
and they only sell ammo, cleaning supplies, and range bags, no guns.
the dire scarcity of ammo made me think, and although i am not "out" of factory match ammo, it doesn't seem like as much as before since there isn't the normal ability to replace it as i shoot it (whatever the price).
add the scary bill somebody is trying to pass that would limit ammo purchases to 2x the gun's capacity every 120 days...gulp.
so anyway this inspired me to go to the range the other day with just m80 ball and see what it does.
up to now, i had only used it for steel targets 3-500 yards away, and even though i never missed at those ranges, i could not say if it was better than 3 moa. big targets and so many pock marks made it impossible to measure, besides the fact it was me shooting in the first place.
well i was surprised when i actually shot paper with it (145gr prvi partizan m80).
i think (still based on my shooting) it is better than 2 moa, and maybe even <1.5 moa if you throw out flyers that are probably me.
but then of course this is just at short distance so i am not saying that would hold up out past any particular distance.
still, it is good enough that i think it would be fun to have an m80 only "competition".
2 boxes of m80, with yardage for the target you choose being the points awarded for each hit.
300=3pts, 400=4pts 500=5pts 600=6pts or something like that. maybe a bonus target if there is a small one at 600.
shooting in a snake draft order so you have some idea if you need to go for more points to keep up.
it would be cheap, even for a poor like me.
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This is from MIL-C-46931F (29 March 1991) for M80 7.62mm NATO Ball ammunition:
So boxed and clipped ammo (for M1, M14, and other rifles) has a slightly tighter accuracy standard than belted (for machineguns and miniguns), but is still no great shakes (roughly ~ 10 inch groups at 600 for rifle ammo, ~ 15 inches / 2.5 MOA+ for machinegun ammo -- out of cherry-picked/controlled test barrels).
M80 Ball (Overhead Fire Application) was spec'ed to a tighter standard, as soldiers were crawling under barbed wire and obstacles with machineguns firing overhead. Uncalled fliers bad.
So boxed and clipped ammo (for M1, M14, and other rifles) has a slightly tighter accuracy standard than belted (for machineguns and miniguns), but is still no great shakes (roughly ~ 10 inch groups at 600 for rifle ammo, ~ 15 inches / 2.5 MOA+ for machinegun ammo -- out of cherry-picked/controlled test barrels).
M80 Ball (Overhead Fire Application) was spec'ed to a tighter standard, as soldiers were crawling under barbed wire and obstacles with machineguns firing overhead. Uncalled fliers bad.
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Like many of the guys above have stated, the quality of M80 varies greatly. I have had really good luck with MEN out of an MWS, and the ADI M80 is excellent (as is most ADI / Australian Outback ammo).
I've shot tons of Malaysian and it's been fine for me
i have heard that from others as well, although they didn't exactly say how it groups for them.
well it's not DAG, HIRT, or MEN but it's fine. Remember, it's spec'd to mil accuracy requirements, it's not fgmm. If I'm getting under 4 moa at 100yds then it's doing what it's supposed to do. Some earlier said, 'think torso at 100' and that is spot on. Too many people think everything is moa and that's just not reality.
Malaysian goes bang, plenty of velocity, under 4 moa often better but it's cheap surplus (not in this mkt)
Can you hit this 20 x 40-inch target with a vanilla .308 / 7.62 battle rifle at 300 Meters? Yes? Win. Done.
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There's a reason some government surplused it. If it's new ammo you're over-paying.
There's a reason some government surplused it. If it's new ammo you're over-paying.
i used to be able to get prvi patizan m80 for 0.42/rd, which isn't as cheap as surplus, but at least it is clean and shoots better than 2 moa.Can you hit this 20 x 40-inch target with a vanilla .308 / 7.62 battle rifle at 300 Meters? Yes? Win. Done.
There's a reason some government surplused it. If it's new ammo you're over-paying.
i realize everyone doesn't like it or get the same results.
Congratulations on finding out why M118 exists.
Can you hit this 20 x 40-inch target with a vanilla .308 / 7.62 battle rifle at 300 Meters? Yes? Win. Done.
Yes
that's rich people ammo!
Historical trivia: the Commonwealth Palma Matches shot at 800 to 1200 yards started at England's Bisley ranges with free issued (surplus) 7.62mm Ball ammo. The Brits, having lots of time to fiddle between the rain, shit weather, and shit gun laws modified bolt action rifles to squeeze the nth degree of precision out of both surplus and new rifles using barrels up to 30-odd inches long (getting between 2800 and 2900 feet per second) .
Evolution of the rules specifying 155-grain Sierra Match King bullets keeps everyone within the spirit of the game. Rifles are shot with iron sights, a sling, no bipods.
Evolution of the rules specifying 155-grain Sierra Match King bullets keeps everyone within the spirit of the game. Rifles are shot with iron sights, a sling, no bipods.
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And the Radway Green ammo they issued was quite good shooting and normally did best with .299" bore and .307 groove barrels.Historical trivia: the Commonwealth Palma Matches shot at 800 to 1200 yards started at England's Bisley ranges with free issued (surplus) 7.62mm Ball ammo. The Brits, having lots of time to fiddle between the rain, shit weather, and shit gun laws modified bolt action rifles to squeeze the nth degree of precision out of both surplus and new rifles using barrels up to 30-odd inches long (getting between 2800 and 2900 feet per second) .
Evolution of the rules specifying 155-grain Sierra Match King bullets keeps everyone within the spirit of the game. Rifles are shot with iron sights, a sling, no bipods.
Unless it's Special Ball ... then it's garbage and doesn't shoot any better than M80that's rich people ammo!
Isn't M118SB the 173 grain FMJ? M118LR is 175 SMK.
I can get some M80 to shoot pretty good out of my M1a/M14 rifles, but M118LR is definitely the ticket out of those guns.
Yep. And, with good M80, I can hit this 34" square one at 850 yards.Can you hit this 20 x 40-inch target with a vanilla .308 / 7.62 battle rifle at 300 Meters? Yes? Win. Done.
There's a reason some government surplused it. If it's new ammo you're over-paying.
Hahaha! M80... accurate... lol. That was enjoyable. The guys above went into more detail than I could have, but M80 = machine gun area target type ammo.
Like everything else, ammo manufacturing technology has vastly improved in the past 80 years.
I have tried 150 fmj with no luck! Got some 147 grain fmj they said was ball but it was not. Army ball will stick to a magnet! Lead core steel jacket copper plated. 44.4 grains of 2460 one hole 5 shot group at 100 yards with a cz 557 varnmint 308 . What got me was 1 inch group with 168 gr. V max 5 shot.
