Well damn that's all over the place.
Well damn that's all over the place.
How were these loads weighed/dispsened??
If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?
If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?
Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.
Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.
I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.
At least for now, I am sticking with Varget. The ball powder part of staball really interests me though.I’m tagging along this thread since we haven’t had varget for months this could be a great alternative.
I’m tagging along this thread since we haven’t had varget for months this could be a great alternative.
Was it Oscar worthy? I didn't single anything you said out, or anyone, just made a statement if a test is to be made, test in 90 deg, test in 60 deg, test in 30 deg, test at 0 deg. Make things equal, make the test a test.It was 85* for 2 hours. No need to be melodramatic. Unless you have to be for your point to be valid.
If you are going to go that far with barrel temp, chamber temp warms considerably five shots in too, brass itself changes temps quickly. But to be honest, I do not run many tests concerning stability. I stumble on most by accident, but I can assure you most of the time with 1 rifle, all components and methods loading are the same, so no reason for suspect, even if the ammo was loaded on different days. As for rd count on a barrel, I shot a 6.5x47 barrel, from rd # 40 to rd # 3900, every time I chrono'd it, hot, warm, cold, 2820fps, give or take ES or SD numbers, so in my head, again, not a factor. Don't let crap build up in your bore and keep velocities constant, I am sure we have all upped our speeds on loads feeling no need to clean.But the problem with that is most people are testing using your method of ambient air temperature to acclimatize your ammo and gun is that they do it on different days. Which means that they are more than likely using ammo loaded at different times and shot on different round counts; introducing a whole another set of variables. Do you really think the barrel temperature matters after the first round? Have you tested that to prove it does?
Has anyone tried Staball with 6BR yet?
I'm about to. Mine just arrived today.
Will have some numbers up tonight throwing 25 charges from my XL650
Hoping to get speed close to Varget. But who knows.
# | Grains |
1 | 24.42 |
2 | 24.42 |
3 | 24.36 |
4 | 24.38 |
5 | 24.38 |
6 | 24.44 |
7 | 24.32 |
8 | 24.40 |
9 | 24.32 |
10 | 24.38 |
11 | 24.32 |
12 | 24.34 |
13 | 24.32 |
14 | 24.42 |
15 | 24.30 |
16 | 24.42 |
17 | 24.38 |
18 | 24.34 |
19 | 24.46 |
20 | 24.36 |
21 | 24.44 |
22 | 24.42 |
23 | 24.44 |
24 | 24.40 |
25 | 24.36 |
ES | 0.16 |
SD | 0.045 |
AVG | 24.3816 |
# | Grains |
26 | 24.34 |
27 | 24.34 |
28 | 24.34 |
29 | 24.36 |
30 | 24.40 |
31 | 24.38 |
32 | 24.40 |
33 | 24.44 |
34 | 24.36 |
35 | 24.38 |
36 | 24.44 |
37 | 24.44 |
38 | 24.40 |
39 | 24.44 |
40 | 24.40 |
41 | 24.40 |
42 | 24.42 |
43 | 24.36 |
44 | 24.36 |
45 | 24.38 |
46 | 24.38 |
47 | 24.40 |
48 | 24.42 |
49 | 24.36 |
50 | 24.38 |
ES | 0.10 |
SD | 0.032 |
AVG | 24.3888 |
Well now we need someone to test it with a bone stock version it seems.My powder hopper, powder die, powder bar is all polished to a mirror finish and I have the Uniquetek powder bar micrometer and powder baffle installed. Not sure how much that is lending to accuracy vs a bone stock powder thrower....
An interesting way to look at your results is not in the extreme spread of high to low charges as a pure number. As in the higher the number, the worse it is. But as in how your SD of charge weights fall into your node window. Once you get a good load optimized and identify what your node is you can see how well those results fall inside that margin. I would think if the powder shoots well you should have a .6 to 1 gr window. The difference of 29.84 and 29.76 would be safely inside your node.
Got my 6mm GT. Loaded Hornady brass Barnes 112's cci br2 and varget, h4350, and staball.
33.4 varget 2915 sd 6 in 5 shots
36.6 h4350 2932 sd 5
Staball
37 2769 sd of 6
37.5 2781 sd 21
38.5 2830 sd 24
39 2885 sd 25
39.5 2965 sd 6
Non pressure signs on any load. The 39.5 load had some more kick to it. I did have one round not go off with Staball. I will get some rounds down the barrel and try again. But I am liking h4350 the best so far
It is pretty well accepted that polishing is needed to get the best results from a Dillon powder measure. Polishing the inside of the metal bowl is particularly important.Well now we need someone to test it with a bone stock version it seems.
I can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.It is pretty well accepted that polishing is needed to get the best results from a Dillon powder measure. Polishing the inside of the metal bowl is particularly important.
Google "Dillon Powder Measure Polishing". There are posts from other forums, videos, etc.I can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.
Yep I did a full review on here 2yrs ago with pictures and info. I'll have to see if I can find itI can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.
Learn something every day.Google "Dillon Powder Measure Polishing". There are posts from other forums, videos, etc.
Sounds good. ThanksYep I didna full review on here 2yrs ago with pictures and info. I'll have to see if I can find it
From most of the people that have posted results there seems to be a trend of normal jumps in velocity, very large jumps in velocity, and very little to no flat spots. Doesn't seem like it has wide velocity nodes like most extruded powders. Will be interesting to see if that's the norm.
This is why I'm always stressing to people proper load workup. Those small variations wont matter down range if your in the center of the node. Not in a node and those variations will have you all over the place..
An interesting way to look at your results is not in the extreme spread of high to low charges as a pure number. As in the higher the number, the worse it is. But as in how your SD of charge weights fall into your node window. Once you get a good load optimized and identify what your node is you can see how well those results fall inside that margin. I would think if the powder shoots well you should have a .6 to 1 gr window. The difference of 29.84 and 29.76 would be safely inside your node.
Both of your comments bear repeating. I think folks forget that the nodes are what help determine a powder's suitability for a case, not necessarily temp sensitivity and velocity, or even ES/SD. It is a pretty accepted fact that ball powders are more sensitive to charge weight variance (and extruded powders tend to be more tolerant). Also, that extruded powders tend to give smoother and more consistent pressure curves over their double base ball powder cousins. Ball powders tend to meter more accurately, but are more sensitive to variance, extruded tend to meter less accurately, but tend to show less effects of that larger variance. All that being said, one powder may be "less accurate" than another, but have a wider accuracy node for a specific cartridge; and that is what drives (or should drive) powder selection. Velocity doesn't equal velocity, nor does ES always equate to accuracy down range.
There's a reason OCW came into being, but I'm preaching to the choir here, and so just reiterating it for others.
Yep, my experiences exactly. Ball powders are finicky. I've been playing with WC857 which is akin to Ramshot Magnum based on my experiences. Finding a "node" takes more time because in my 7mm RemMag I had to do 0.2g steps in my testing and the node is basically 0.1g in either direction. The good part is my powder measure drops to within 0.1 and life is good.
Lee perfect powder measure.Ideally
What powder measure are you using?
As long as that node stays stable, that's a wide node for a ball powder. I'd make 10 each of 49.6, 49.8, and 50 and see what the numbers say.Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.
7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m
49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark
Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
As long as that node stays stable, that's a wide node for a ball powder. I'd make 10 each of 49.6, 49.8, and 50 and see what the numbers say.
If that's the case it better be temp stable. Won't take much to get in trouble.
Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.
7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m
49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark
Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
Yup, that's low to mid 280 AI speed.Wow.. that's .280 AI speed with 10-12 grains less powder.
Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.
7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m
49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark
Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
How does that compare to your current favorite load?
Staball is not temperature stable. I ran a test in the 25 creedmoore using Peterson SRP brass, 131g blackjack bullets and both cci 400 and 450 primers through a 28” Bartlein suppressed.
I will choose one specific loading to present however this pattern marched out throughout the testing of an entire ladder test
On day one the temperature was 61 F.
Staball 44.6g 3029 fps with SD 9 (3 shots) cci 450
Day two the temperature was 41 F.
Staball 44.6g 3006 fps with SD 8 (5 shots) cci 450
Staball 44.6g 3004 fps with SD 10 (3 shots) cci 400
that is a 1.2 FPS difference per degree F
How were these loads weighed/dispsened??
If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?
If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?
Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.
Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.
I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.