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Ok I have a poll question M1A or AR10 SASS

What did I say specifically did you disagree with?

Shooting doesn't require skill because people aren't pre-disposed to being good at it.

Yet the only way to get good at it is to practice. Skill is pretty much the only factor in the outcome of a shooting match; not your genetics.



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A win is a win no matter what the score is, however you missed the bigger picture The Service Rifle Championship was won by a women driving a M14, against top off the line at that time, rat guns. How many times I don't know but when the Marines drug out the M14 for the Nationals in 1999 they handed everyone there heads on a platter, however Camp Perry's NTT traditionally has been a all Army show, Inner-Service(Pac-Fleet, Atln-Fleet) traditionally have been a Marine and Navy show.

As Nez said earlier, the 1000yds record still stands and is held by a Marine shooter with a M14........

Your Right there is nothing in the rules that say's LR cannot be Semi-Auto, but they can't compete on equal footing that's why rifles are grouped within there class Match Rifles against March Rifles, Service Rifles with Service Rifles and Palma Rifles with Palma Rifles. Good question though and I truly don't know the answer, while the Wimbledon/Farr/Atkins are fired at the same time I think if any Gasser(M-1/M14/M110/M16) were too take the overall win, they would still be awarded the Farr with overall high score. But I will ask someone who knows much more than I about this and get back........

The Marines did not win the NTT in 1999. The only time an M14-team has beat the mouse gun was in 96...the first year after the Army won. The Marines stopped using M14s after 1997, which probably means Watson won Nationals with an M16 in 1999.

What 1000 yard reccord still stands with the M14? Unless your info was updated this year, it is probably wrong. I know the 1000 yard Inter-Service reccord is 200-11, and is held by an Army shooter and an AR10.

I don't see why you are arguing that the M14 went away for any other reason than that it was harder to shoot well. Your one example is based around one shooter, and it's also wrong.

Reread my post its on top, I said that NTT is/has been a Army show. Precision Shooting vol.47 No.9 January 2000, pg 12. clearly has a picture of S/Sgt. Watson with her M14 as the Service Rifle Champ for the 1999 National Matches... If need be I can post the picture? I never mentioned that the M14 was harder too shoot due too its recoil, YOU DID I have said from the start that the M14 is not the Current As Issued Service Rifle and nothing more... I just brought up the fact that Watson was a women that shot it and took the Big Show, I won't mention Capt. Murdock or Catherin Bug the youngest girl too leg out at 15 with a M14 shooting issued M118NM ammo.. So my example being based on just 1 isn't the case now is it?

As a side note Christopher Stark, took the 1000yd Porter Match with a M14 and Jamie Mordarshi USN, Farr trophy.
 
Don't they have to use an M14 or Garand for that course of fire? I'm almost positive that they do.

NVM, back then the AR10 wasn't even allowed there. So that argument is a non-starter.
 
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Shooting doesn't require skill because people aren't pre-disposed to being good at it.

Yet the only way to get good at it is to practice. Skill is pretty much the only factor in the outcome of a shooting match; not your genetics.



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Walking on the Catwalk also takes practice. I don't know if I would call it a skill.. the way I see walking is, anyone can be good at it if they practice enough.
 
Walking on the Catwalk also takes practice. I don't know if I would call it a skill.. the way I see walking is, anyone can be good at it if they practice enough.

Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument but very few people can be Mozart etc. Lots of people shoot service rifle but not many earn trophies or win national championships, for whatever reason.

I agree with everything else you have said though.

And these comparisons of "____ guy won a trophy with a rattley M14 that he found in the back of a van" are getting silly. No disrespect to those shooters but for the purposes of this discussion those facts are meaningless.
 
Reread my post its on top, I said that NTT is/has been a Army show. Precision Shooting vol.47 No.9 January 2000, pg 12. clearly has a picture of S/Sgt. Watson with her M14 as the Service Rifle Champ for the 1999 National Matches... If need be I can post the picture? I never mentioned that the M14 was harder too shoot due too its recoil, YOU DID I have said from the start that the M14 is not the Current As Issued Service Rifle and nothing more... I just brought up the fact that Watson was a women that shot it and took the Big Show, I won't mention Capt. Murdock or Catherin Bug the youngest girl too leg out at 15 with a M14 shooting issued M118NM ammo.. So my example being based on just 1 isn't the case now is it?

As a side note Christopher Stark, took the 1000yd Porter Match with a M14 and Jamie Mordarshi USN, Farr trophy.

This will be my last words on this since we could honestly go back and forth on this forever.

The M14 is harder to shoot well than an M16. You can ask anybody that has shot both. Can it be done? Yes it can. But it requires a lot more effort. There is very good reason that pretty much every national highpower reccord that was set by M14 shooters has been broken.

I have shot M1 Garands, M14s, M16s, and AR10s in competition. I have also spoken with people way more accomplished than me, and that got to see the transition between from M1 to M14 to M16. According to anyone that has shot both, the M16 is the easist rifle to shoot well.

None of the teams shoot the M14 across the course anymore. And the only people that are shooting M14s for LR are because they don't have AR10s yet. Look at the scores for the Farr trophy; the lowest winning Farr trophy score for an AR10 is a 192/200, and has won it every year since 2009. Look at the team match scores as well.



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Shooting doesn't require skill because people aren't pre-disposed to being good at it.

Yet the only way to get good at it is to practice. Skill is pretty much the only factor in the outcome of a shooting match; not your genetics.



Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

The only thing special about cartmans genetic makeup is its extra chromosome.

I am fat, balding, have poor eyesight, shaky hands, a flinch and I can't shoot worth a damn. I love to shoot though and spend a lot of time and money on it. You can tell a non shooter by his weapons, they usually live in a safe and only get pulled out for pictures.
 
Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument but very few people can be Mozart etc. Lots of people shoot service rifle but not many earn trophies or win national championships, for whatever reason.

I agree with everything else you have said though.

And these comparisons of "____ guy won a trophy with a rattley M14 that he found in the back of a van" are getting silly. No disrespect to those shooters but for the purposes of this discussion those facts are meaningless.


I would hardly call a gun a musical instrument. I see a gun more in the same line as shoes.
 
The only thing special about cartmans genetic makeup is its extra chromosome.

I am fat, balding, have poor eyesight, shaky hands, a flinch and I can't shoot worth a damn. I love to shoot though and spend a lot of time and money on it. You can tell a non shooter by his weapons, they usually live in a safe and only get pulled out for pictures.


To me they are all toys. what's wrong with owning safe queens? I myself don't own any "safe queens"... now maybe some of them have only been shot 100 rounds in 10 years, but they are still being used. When you have many toys to choose from, sometimes it's hard to spread the fun.
 
I think the obvious choices are going to be either the Mini-30 or a few SKS. Cheaper, both 30 cal. Either will outshoot an AR 10 anyday. You can even afford a few on Cartman's salary.
 
I think the obvious choices are going to be either the Mini-30 or a few SKS. Cheaper, both 30 cal. Either will outshoot an AR 10 anyday. You can even afford a few on Cartman's salary.


Nah, those likely use that "magic headspace" thing as well.
If your skills are limited to slapping an indexed pinned barrel in a receiver and tightening a nut the magic is lost.
 
As to the original post...

If you decide to go the M1A/M14 route, it may be very accurate right out of the box. It's very easy to maintain and clean once you've been shown how to do it properly. There are some good cheap things you can do to improve accuracy and there are some very thorough expensive things you can do to. I've gone to great lengths to pass on to the younger generations or people who just never had exposure to such a fine rifle, all the pertinent information and methods to keep your rifle running and shooting well.

I've got a video page set up on youtube that shows you everything you'll need to know about proper M1A/M14 care.

For prospective owners, there's never been a better time to own an M14/M1A. There are more options than ever before with awesome drop-in stocks which can sometimes eliminate the need for bedding. Cleaning the M14 is a BREEZE and shouldn't take you longer than 15 minutes between range trips. There's very little carbon buildup in the bolt/chamber area and the rifle only requires a complete teardown once a year or if it's been exposed to rain, mud or extreme sand/dust. A good budget M1A should shoot 2 to 3 MOA which is good for most steel ringers and range shooters. If you want the rifle to shoot tighter, there's a few ways to get there but it can be done on the cheap if you are a competent tinkerer. A basic vanilla M1A dropped into a SAGE or JAE will get you around 1 MOA, so for $2200 t $2500 (minus the glass), you could easily be there.

There are some good scope mounting options out there too. I own a Bassett and it's working out great! Sadlak will get you there too. Very few people who have owned M14's end up not liking them. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not for everyone. I'm building my third M14 right now. My goal is to have a standard, medium and heavy weight M14, as well as an 18.5" and maybe a 16" length.

If you decide to get an AR pattern, I'd go all out with a GAP-10. I might get one some day.

Let us know when you get yours.

Tony.
 
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Don't they have to use an M14 or Garand for that course of fire? I'm almost positive that they do.

NVM, back then the AR10 wasn't even allowed there. So that argument is a non-starter.

No, its open for any US Service Rifle, including the M16. However the M1, the Navy's MKII ModI and the M14 are all blessed with .30cal bullets, good sights with a decent sight radius. The M110/Ar10 has a good rear sight but a poor sight radius and its barrel length is the shortest of the .30's so its hard too get a good bullet up too speed and carry the distance.

This will be my last words on this since we could honestly go back and forth on this forever.

The M14 is harder to shoot well than an M16. You can ask anybody that has shot both. Can it be done? Yes it can. But it requires a lot more effort. There is very good reason that pretty much every national highpower reccord that was set by M14 shooters has been broken.

I have shot M1 Garands, M14s, M16s, and AR10s in competition. I have also spoken with people way more accomplished than me, and that got to see the transition between from M1 to M14 to M16. According to anyone that has shot both, the M16 is the easist rifle to shoot well.

None of the teams shoot the M14 across the course anymore. And the only people that are shooting M14s for LR are because they don't have AR10s yet. Look at the scores for the Farr trophy; the lowest winning Farr trophy score for an AR10 is a 192/200, and has won it every year since 2009. Look at the team match scores as well.

Back when the M14 was on the line in large numbers ammo was Issued too the shooter at the Nationals either M118NM and later M852, 1996 was also the last year M852 made. When the M16a2/Ar15 was approved by the NRA/CMP in 1998? it was a roll your own almost from the start, unless you wanted too shoot M193 or M855. So yea the M14 has more bump with the heavier ammo. Today that's not the case. If the Ar has thought me one thing if you shoot a lousy bullet fast enough it will get there with that in mind the 125/135 weight bullets have no more recoil than the heavier 77's do, maybe even less as the M14 can be weighted up pretty heavy. When we get too 600yds I can shoot either the 168-175 and the 75-80's aren't as good, at 1000yds I can run either the 168 Berger's, 175SMK or the 185 Berger and no .223/5.56 bullet even comes close. You can argue that the M110 can do the same, that's true but were back too that short barrel and sight radius again it doesn't work as well as you think it does.

The real reason you see the M110 on the line is the Army wanted it and lobbied the NRA's comp committee hard and it paid off for them, one step forward. When the other Branches lobbied for the DRM-E2 and the RI-EBR the NRA comp committee said NO it wasn't a General Issued weapon. But the M110 is, all because the Army wanted a Big .30 at whatever cost and that cost was a short barrel and lousy sight radius, two steps backwards?
 
No, its open for any US Service Rifle, including the M16. However the M1, the Navy's MKII ModI and the M14 are all blessed with .30cal bullets, good sights with a decent sight radius. The M110/Ar10 has a good rear sight but a poor sight radius and its barrel length is the shortest of the .30's so its hard too get a good bullet up too speed and carry the distance.



Back when the M14 was on the line in large numbers ammo was Issued too the shooter at the Nationals either M118NM and later M852, 1996 was also the last year M852 made. When the M16a2/Ar15 was approved by the NRA/CMP in 1998? it was a roll your own almost from the start, unless you wanted too shoot M193 or M855. So yea the M14 has more bump with the heavier ammo. Today that's not the case. If the Ar has thought me one thing if you shoot a lousy bullet fast enough it will get there with that in mind the 125/135 weight bullets have no more recoil than the heavier 77's do, maybe even less as the M14 can be weighted up pretty heavy. When we get too 600yds I can shoot either the 168-175 and the 75-80's aren't as good, at 1000yds I can run either the 168 Berger's, 175SMK or the 185 Berger and no .223/5.56 bullet even comes close. You can argue that the M110 can do the same, that's true but were back too that short barrel and sight radius again it doesn't work as well as you think it does.

The real reason you see the M110 on the line is the Army wanted it and lobbied the NRA's comp committee hard and it paid off for them, one step forward. When the other Branches lobbied for the DRM-E2 and the RI-EBR the NRA comp committee said NO it wasn't a General Issued weapon. But the M110 is, all because the Army wanted a Big .30 at whatever cost and that cost was a short barrel and lousy sight radius, two steps backwards?

Ugh. I'm going to bite again. But this is the last time god dammit!

The Army first won NTT with M16s in 1995, and it was definitely approved before then.

A 125-135gr bullet is not going to have less recoil than a 77SMK, and it's not going to beat it on wind. It's a fix for the recoil issue but it's still a step backwards. You also cannot make an M14 weigh as much as a fully weighted M16. Either way you are bleeding points to wind or recoil.

You've got a slight edge for wind at 600 yards: 3 inches from in a 10mph crosswind between a 175 SMK vs an 80 SMK. You're actually losing if the shooter uses any of the VLD bullets.

The 2 inches of extra barrel length does not make a difference with the M14 because it does not respond well to high chamber and gas port pressures.

A 185 Berger at 2550-2600fps is not a slouch at 1000 yards. Wind drift is less than a new 155 SMK @ 3000fps out of a Palma gun.

The sight radius also does not matter. How do I know this? Because I have shot the AR10 and M14 enough to know what is the better rifle. The average AR10 score for the last five 20 shot strings I have fired at 1000 yards is just shy of a 193.

Have you been able to consistently break 190 or better scores at 1000 with your M14 or M1?


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I prefer the m14, I would never recommend it to someone who is an infrequent shooter or whom does not have the time/patience to learn their rifle. I see M14 types at the range I go to weekly, they are generally shot with boxed ammo with mediocre results. Owner buys rifle, shoots 30 to 50 rounds, gets frustrated because it's their first time using real sights and can't for the death of them figure out come ups and can't really accept that their rifle requires 1 click of windage to be on X at 100 with no wind. You have to understand that you will need to work with the rifle and every rifle is a little unique.

FWIW FGMM shoots only slightly better than ball in my rifles. Handloading is were the magic comes out (with any rifle really)-and that requires you to know your magic headspace. I have shot some pretty hot loads (not by bolt standards) in my rifles with no issues.

Problems and service…well, I don't spend any more time servicing my M14s vs a bolt. Possibly a little less. There are the yearly maintenance things, and that does take a little time.

I will add that I don't own an AR-10 or a SASS. I have shot a few AR-10 types. I have a pair of M14s and parts for 4 more. Will I ever buy an AR-10…doubt it. No need for one.

Recoil and weight are really not issues for my use.

So to the OP…both are good rifles. The M14 used to be a much cheaper rifle than it is now. Whatever you get….LEARN it…and shoot it frequently.
 
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Ugh. I'm going to bite again. But this is the last time god dammit!

The Army first won NTT with M16s in 1995, and it was definitely approved before then.

A 125-135gr bullet is not going to have less recoil than a 77SMK, and it's not going to beat it on wind. It's a fix for the recoil issue but it's still a step backwards. You also cannot make an M14 weigh as much as a fully weighted M16. Either way you are bleeding points to wind or recoil.

You've got a slight edge for wind at 600 yards: 3 inches from in a 10mph crosswind between a 175 SMK vs an 80 SMK. You're actually losing if the shooter uses any of the VLD bullets.

The 2 inches of extra barrel length does not make a difference with the M14 because it does not respond well to high chamber and gas port pressures.

A 185 Berger at 2550-2600fps is not a slouch at 1000 yards. Wind drift is less than a new 155 SMK @ 3000fps out of a Palma gun.

The sight radius also does not matter. How do I know this? Because I have shot the AR10 and M14 enough to know what is the better rifle. The average AR10 score for the last five 20 shot strings I have fired at 1000 yards is just shy of a 193.

Have you been able to consistently break 190 or better scores at 1000 with your M14 or M1?

Your on crack but I will play your silly game?...... the 125 Speer TnT has a BC of .341, 125SMK 0.349 and the 135 SMK BC .370 compared too the 77SMK BC of .362 so how good of a bullet do I need too shoot at 200yds in my M1A at 2800fps, 200yds is still pretty close? At 300yds both the 77SMK and the 135SMK its a dead heat at the same M/V. At 600yds the 80 VLD Berger BC .445 comes close too the 168SMK BC of .462 and there not being pushed hard like the 77/80's are in a M16platform. But the 168 Berger Hy-bred runs .519 and there is not .223/5.56 pill that will match that not even the 90's then we .30cal shooters still have the option of stepping up too the 185 Berger Hy-bred's BC of .569 M/V of 2550/2600 with the 185's isn't hard but I like too see a little extra as a hedge 1000yds is a lot of air too punch threw when its moist and heavy. The big Ar has the shorter barrel can it get'm up too speed like the M14/M1a, short answer nope...........

You really need too get out more, guys that are shooting the 168 B Hy-bred are having pretty good success putting a little bit of speed behind them for 600/1000yds and there not showing pressure as a result of the shorter bearing length. The M14 isn't some weak sister they handle the pressure just fine, grooved piston and maybe a oversized gas plug. If you really were worried about the M14/M1a bashing itself too death with the heavy loads drill the off side off the spindle valve too .070 problem solved!

Have I been able too break 190 or better? yes I have time or two and that was using the old Navy Long Range load in my M1A, 44grs IMR4320 under a old school 190SMK in a LC case COAL 2.90 give it a try it holds the water line pretty good.......
 
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The 2 inches of extra barrel length does not make a difference with the M14 because it does not respond well to high chamber and gas port pressures.


The sight radius also does not matter. How do I know this? Because I have shot the AR10 and M14 enough to know what is the better rifle. The average AR10 score for the last five 20 shot strings I have fired at 1000 yards is just shy of a 193.

Have you been able to consistently break 190 or better scores at 1000 with your M14 or M1?



If velocity is a plus ANY added barrel length is your friend. At short range its moot but at extended range speed is your friend.

If sight radius does not matter then why do some shooters still put bloop tubes on their rifles ?
Hint: Longer sighting radius helps accuracy as does the reduced values on the target knobs and being able to dial it in center of the "X" ring.

As to the scores any individual shoots its the sum of the shooters ability to control the rifle and deal with conditions. The old saying matches are won with standing points and lost at 600 due to bad wind calls.
Most service rifles are capable of firing clean scores across the course but the people behind it are what takes off points.
 
Considering my profession I am biased towards the M14 for a few reasons but I appreciate a well built rifle more then any other. I believe, (which is a matter of personal opinion based on experience) that a well built M14 will out perform the M110. Yes, it is more costly and requires a bit more of gunsmithing but you can't beat a well built rifle and I didn't get into this to save money. The M110 or AR platform rifles of today are great and very user friendly and with the ability to do just about anything to them but at the begining we were asked what our opinions were so here is mine.
 
If velocity is a plus ANY added barrel length is your friend. At short range its moot but at extended range speed is your friend.

If sight radius does not matter then why do some shooters still put bloop tubes on their rifles ?
Hint: Longer sighting radius helps accuracy as does the reduced values on the target knobs and being able to dial it in center of the "X" ring.

As to the scores any individual shoots its the sum of the shooters ability to control the rifle and deal with conditions. The old saying matches are won with standing points and lost at 600 due to bad wind calls.
Most service rifles are capable of firing clean scores across the course but the people behind it are what takes off points.

In context of LR Service Rifle, the 2 inches of barrel, and extra sight radius are not enough to outweigh the rest of it's deficiencies.

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I shoot higher scores in any condition at NRA LR Service Rifle Competition with my match conditioned AR than I have ever shot with any of the match conditioned M14's I've owned, for a multitude of reasons but most importantly I can get .5 MOA at 100 in practice with the AR and irons. I have not had the pleasure to shoot an M14 with that sort of accuracy. My average 1000 yard score with my match conditioned .223 AR is 186. My all time high is 192 in a prevailing 4-5 MPH wind with very good pit service.
 
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Don't they have to use an M14 or Garand for that course of fire? I'm almost positive that they do.

NVM, back then the AR10 wasn't even allowed there. So that argument is a non-starter.

Again, the NRA allows the AR10, the CMP DOES NOT.

If you intend on shooting high power, you are going to want to start working toward you distinguished rifle badge. That program is run by the CMP, ( as well as the President's Hundred and other similar matches). You can not shoot the AR10 in these matches.

If you want an AR for high power/CMP matches go to the 223 AR. If you want a 30 Cal Service Rifle go to the M1A/M1 (though you are going to be handicapped with the M1, you have to shoot '06 Garand's not the 308 version.

You can scope a M1A, I went to sniper school and taught Sniper schools using the M21, they are effective I don't care what others say.

If your boyfriend CANT shoot Irons, you has a girlfriend.

I shot a ton of 1000 yard matches when I was shooting for the Guard and my best scores were with the M1A using irons. Shot some fair scores with my WOA 223 Service rifle also using 80 gr SMKs and Irons.

With irons, sight radius matters, (with in match rules of course).
 
I know i'm gonna regret this but here goes...

1. I shoot/have shot AR-15 & AR-10s across the course. My scores are the similar...the guys who claim an AR-10 is "harder to shoot" than the AR-15s have never shot AR-10s XTC or haven't given it a fair shake...anytime you switch rifles, there will be a feeling our period.

2. I own a match-conditioned M1A. I've shot my best scores in 600yards & 1,000yards with it, so i know that rifle can be as accurate as an AR-10. I've only owned the rifle for a short period of time, and have less than 500rds through it, so i cannot comment on long-term upkeep.

3. There is no 223 bullet in the market that can be pushed hard enough out of a 20" AR-15 service rifle that will buck wind better than the 168/185 Bergers or Hornady 178HPBTs out of a 20" AR-10 or the 22" M1A....unless you hot-rod the AR-15 and shoot the M1A/AR-10 with reduced loads...in fact this is how most M14 and M1 garand shooters load their 30-cal rifles...and then claim that there is "no advantage to shooting a 30-cal."

4. The extra 2" of barrel in the M1A does not make a difference vs. the M110/AR-10 since the difference in MV is typically 40ft/s or less shooting the same load.

5. The long sight radius of the M1A really helps for faster sight alignment...however, this is negated by the fact that the AR-10 recoil is more straight back and muzzle climb is less than in the M1A...overall it's a wash.

6. It's bogus to claim that "no one" would shoot AR-10 style rifles if CMP allowed them...for most shooters that want to shoot .30-cal rifles, the M110/AR-10 equivalent is more economical/logical choice than the M1A...a properly set up M110 can be had for less than $1500 with match sights. My M1A was closer to $3,000 and i got it for a steal...

7. I primarily shoot AR-15 across the course not because its "easier to shoot well" or any crap like that. I do so because of economics. Bullets, and components are about 50% of the cost of 30-cal supplies. I suspect this is the reason why 30-cal will never again dominate high power/service rifle. Not because of "recoil" (which is very mild out of a semi-auto) but because of the economics.

There, my $0.02. Flame suit on.
 
I think the obvious choices are going to be either the Mini-30 or a few SKS. Cheaper, both 30 cal. Either will outshoot an AR 10 anyday. You can even afford a few on Cartman's salary.

what is most important is that you like your gun, and you could care less what others think. then again, that is hard to do around here.. around here we have to defend our love to the death!

to me they are all just TOYS.. but that is just me :-(
 
Nah, those likely use that "magic headspace" thing as well.
If your skills are limited to slapping an indexed pinned barrel in a receiver and tightening a nut the magic is lost.


we also can use scissors to cut our lawn. makes it more fun when there is more work involved.

Please Discuss...
 
As to the original post...

If you decide to go the M1A/M14 route, it may be very accurate right out of the box. It's very easy to maintain and clean once you've been shown how to do it properly. There are some good cheap things you can do to improve accuracy and there are some very thorough expensive things you can do to. I've gone to great lengths to pass on to the younger generations or people who just never had exposure to such a fine rifle, all the pertinent information and methods to keep your rifle running and shooting well.

I've got a video page set up on youtube that shows you everything you'll need to know about proper M1A/M14 care.

For prospective owners, there's never been a better time to own an M14/M1A. There are more options than ever before with awesome drop-in stocks which can sometimes eliminate the need for bedding. Cleaning the M14 is a BREEZE and shouldn't take you longer than 15 minutes between range trips. There's very little carbon buildup in the bolt/chamber area and the rifle only requires a complete teardown once a year or if it's been exposed to rain, mud or extreme sand/dust. A good budget M1A should shoot 2 to 3 MOA which is good for most steel ringers and range shooters. If you want the rifle to shoot tighter, there's a few ways to get there but it can be done on the cheap if you are a competent tinkerer. A basic vanilla M1A dropped into a SAGE or JAE will get you around 1 MOA, so for $2200 t $2500 (minus the glass), you could easily be there.

There are some good scope mounting options out there too. I own a Bassett and it's working out great! Sadlak will get you there too. Very few people who have owned M14's end up not liking them. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not for everyone. I'm building my third M14 right now. My goal is to have a standard, medium and heavy weight M14, as well as an 18.5" and maybe a 16" length.

If you decide to get an AR pattern, I'd go all out with a GAP-10. I might get one some day.

Let us know when you get yours.

Tony.


Not much to clean my AR10's either, I just swab barrel from time to time.. Can't even really clean a barrel the way I want to on M14!

Why would you recommend GAP? Not much to accurizing an AR10 other than bolting on a new barrel. Are you saying GAP can use a barrel wrench better than any of us?
 
I know i'm gonna regret this but here goes...

1. I shoot/have shot AR-15 & AR-10s across the course. My scores are the similar...the guys who claim an AR-10 is "harder to shoot" than the AR-15s have never shot AR-10s XTC or haven't given it a fair shake...anytime you switch rifles, there will be a feeling our period.

2. I own a match-conditioned M1A. I've shot my best scores in 600yards & 1,000yards with it, so i know that rifle can be as accurate as an AR-10. I've only owned the rifle for a short period of time, and have less than 500rds through it, so i cannot comment on long-term upkeep.

3. There is no 223 bullet in the market that can be pushed hard enough out of a 20" AR-15 service rifle that will buck wind better than the 168/185 Bergers or Hornady 178HPBTs out of a 20" AR-10 or the 22" M1A....unless you hot-rod the AR-15 and shoot the M1A/AR-10 with reduced loads...in fact this is how most M14 and M1 garand shooters load their 30-cal rifles...and then claim that there is "no advantage to shooting a 30-cal."

4. The extra 2" of barrel in the M1A does not make a difference vs. the M110/AR-10 since the difference in MV is typically 40ft/s or less shooting the same load.

5. The long sight radius of the M1A really helps for faster sight alignment...however, this is negated by the fact that the AR-10 recoil is more straight back and muzzle climb is less than in the M1A...overall it's a wash.

6. It's bogus to claim that "no one" would shoot AR-10 style rifles if CMP allowed them...for most shooters that want to shoot .30-cal rifles, the M110/AR-10 equivalent is more economical/logical choice than the M1A...a properly set up M110 can be had for less than $1500 with match sights. My M1A was closer to $3,000 and i got it for a steal...

7. I primarily shoot AR-15 across the course not because its "easier to shoot well" or any crap like that. I do so because of economics. Bullets, and components are about 50% of the cost of 30-cal supplies. I suspect this is the reason why 30-cal will never again dominate high power/service rifle. Not because of "recoil" (which is very mild out of a semi-auto) but because of the economics.

There, my $0.02. Flame suit on.


No one should ever regret sharing his own experiences and giving his own view on things. Pro-M14 or Anti-M14, Cartmann has always, and will always respect everyone's personal experiences and views.

However, I have to admit, if everyone respected everyone's else views, that would make Forums VERY BORING. Cartmann does not like Boring... Forums are much more fun when all the "Operators" hands out personal attacks :)
 
I know i'm gonna regret this but here goes...

......

There, my $0.02. Flame suit on.

Great post. Very similar to my experience except I just shot for fun, not for competition, but the part about cost is huge. I can get far more practice per dollar with my 223 AR than a 308 anything.
 
M1A/M14 is an obsolete rifle. If you want one for nastalga or for fun, then go for it. A well built one is not cheap.

AR10 platform beats it in just about every category. With that being said, I would look elsewhere before I bought a DPMS. The MWS and SCAR17 are not that much more expensive. Both are much higher quality and you can trust your life to them.

You are a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
 
One thing I have figured out in life is this... I WANT THE M14-FANBOIS TO CALL ME STUPID.

Reason I got my Electrical Engineering Degree, become a fast Motorcycle Racer, and become an all around awesome guy is because I listened to the M14-fanbois, and then proceeded to do the opposite.
 
I shoot service rifle (a different, non-US version) with a 12.5 inch barrelled 5.56 AR. It's pretty fun.
 
All.

Some here have opinions based on experience and others have impressions gathered from opinion leaders. And, although it's nice to know what the experts are shooting these days, I'd like to know how those here are doing with their preferred rifle. So, perhaps, those with LR experience, that seems to be one of todays venues for M1A's and AR's, can share their own results with chosen rifle, like posting highest score produced with an AR, M1A or M14 in NRA LR Service Rifle Competition, as well as the wind and weather conditions. I also think it would be interesting to know your starting zero, zero used, and corrected zero as recorded in your score book. I still see folks shooting the M1A in LR with great results but I prefer the AR for reasons I mentioned earlier, mostly my confidence in my ability to control it consistently from shot to shot.

Just an anecdotal thought, my first NRA LR tournament was accommodated with a standard M1A. I don't remember the score. I could look it up but I prefer to forget it. I wanted to use the experience to prove to all that they had not yet seen what good shooting was all about. Well, that did not happen. What did happen was my discovery that I did not know anything about what I was doing. I realized this as I observed my target disappear while perfecting my sight picture after firing a few sighters. Later, I realized mirage from my barrel was the instigator of my issue. At any rate, the experience was an eye opener for sure; and, I was hooked. About 3 seasons later I had my HM card, but not from Service Rifle Division, mostly from scores produces with a 308 bolt gun with irons. I've enjoyed the challenge and the realization it's not about the gun. A good shooter can get good results with any gun that's not broken using his desire, discipline, and brain.
 
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All.

Some here have opinions based on experience and others have impressions gathered from opinion leaders. And, although it's nice to know what the experts are shooting these days, I'd like to know how those here are doing with their preferred rifle. So, perhaps, those with LR experience, that seems to be one of todays venues for M1A's and AR's, can share their own results with chosen rifle, like posting highest score produced with an AR, M1A or M14 in NRA LR Service Rifle Competition, as well as the wind and weather conditions. I also think it would be interesting to know your starting zero, zero used, and corrected zero as recorded in your score book. I still see folks shooting the M1A in LR with great results but I prefer the AR for reasons I mentioned earlier, mostly my confidence in my ability to control it consistently from shot to shot.

Just an anecdotal thought, my first NRA LR tournament was accommodated with a standard M1A. I don't remember the score. I could look it up but I prefer to forget it. I wanted to use the experience to prove to all that they had not yet seen what good shooting was all about. Well, that did not happen. What did happen was my discovery that I did not know anything about what I was doing. I realized this as I observed my target disappear while perfecting my sight picture after firing a few sighters. Later, I realized mirage from my barrel was the instigator of my issue. At any rate, the experience was an eye opener for sure; and, I was hooked. About 3 seasons later I had my HM card, but not from Service Rifle Division, mostly from scores produces with a 308 bolt gun with irons. I've enjoyed the challenge and the realization it's not about the gun. A good shooter can get good results with any gun that's not broken using his desire, discipline, and brain.


OK, I'll play.

I shot my first 1000 yard match in 97 using a 223 space gun built by Bill Wylde himself. Back then no one ever showed up at our state LR Championships with a 223 so I was given a conditional approval to shoot as long as the pit officer confirms that the bullets are supersonic at 1000. In the state match one of the matches was iron sight. I had to shoot against Palma guys and magnum shooters. At the awards ceremony the match director gave speech that iron sight winner almost was not allowed to shoot. Yes, the lowly 223 prevailed.

The following year, one of our club shooters, a former shooter at Easley range did not have a LR rifle to shoot so he shot the same space gun and my load and the won the same match. I let him use the space gun while I shot my AR15 in the service rifle category. The little AR15 beat all the M14 shooters and took the plaque home.

Did not shoot LR again till 2012. My friend in Houston owned the service rifle 1000 yard range record on his home range. He set it in 05 with an AR. This time the state LR championship is on his home range. Just for fun I decided to shoot the 14, showing up on match day with my 600 yard zero. Good thing we had a Palma team match prior to the individual. The 14 broke the range record with a lowly 191-5X, just 1 point better than the previous record. Nothing to really brag about, but once you shoot on that range, you can appreciate the 191.

1000 yards with a service rifle is fun if you can handle the frustration. Next year I will shoot one of my McCoy M1s.

I will share the loads, all safety caveats apply.

Service rifle 80 VLD 2900 FPS. Tossed brass.
Space gun, the same load, longer barrel 3050 FPS
Double lugged M1A, 168 Hybrids 2800 FPS.

Data recorded through Oehler 43.
 
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I am shooting Service Rifle at 2800 with 80 grain Berger's and tossing brass. Load is 24.8 grains of RE-15, Win. brass and primers. It is really hot. How are you getting 2900 and keeping your rifle together at the same time?
 
I am shooting Service Rifle at 2800 with 80 grain Berger's and tossing brass. Load is 24.8 grains of RE-15, Win. brass and primers. It is really hot. How are you getting 2900 and keeping your rifle together at the same time?

N540, molied 80 VLD. Can't get there with R15. Tested the N540 in 96 when I got the first batch, no published load data back then. Testing the load on my 600 yard range slowly pushing the charge till I got the group I was looking for then chronoed the load. On my other barrel the most I can get was 2850 before I start dropping primers. Barrels are so different and so are the chambers that velocity can differ between rifles. Different lots can determine precision at different velocity.

The barrel I had before that I shot long range was supposed to be 9 twist that I intended to shoot in reduced courses with 69s. There were no 77s back then. When I was testing my Obermeyer barrel at 600 I decided to see how the 80 VLD would shoot in the 9 twist. To my surprise it shot them well. It did not like the 80 SMK, but it did the Berger VLD. My guess it was something between 9 and 8. A friend had a special run 8.2 twist and he shot in the velocity range I did. Remember bullet stability is also driven by velocity.
 
I am shooting Service Rifle at 2800 with 80 grain Berger's and tossing brass. Load is 24.8 grains of RE-15, Win. brass and primers. It is really hot. How are you getting 2900 and keeping your rifle together at the same time?

Lake city brass and 8208, H4895, or lots and lots of 2000MR, ditching the win primer might help too, I got better numbers with the tula mags if you can find them, or ccis....

I want to say 24 grains H4895, 26 grains of 2000MR, can't remember the 8208 but probably in the low to mid 23s.
 
Lake city brass and 8208, H4895, or lots and lots of 2000MR, ditching the win primer might help too, I got better numbers with the tula mags if you can find them, or ccis....

I want to say 24 grains H4895, 26 grains of 2000MR, can't remember the 8208 but probably in the low to mid 23s.

Thank you.

I know 3 guys who are using 2000 MR shooting the 82 class bullets out of their 20 inch service rifles around 2900 range. We tested the 2000 MR in 4 different barrels, precision is right there at the higher node.
 

Gina Carano?

gina_carano_maxim33.jpg
 
as someone who owns a m1a national match, i can't recommend it unless you want it specifically for the history behind the rifle. a better bet is the m25 from LRB if you want to drop the coin. I've had too many issues with scope mounts on mine. I just use it with irons for now while i save up for a sadlak airborne mount.

with that being said, the m1a is capable. the SASS will be a little easier i think tho.
 
No Question

That is comparing a Biker Chic to a Prom Queen. Which would you rather have watching your back in a fight?
 

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